Digital nomad, online workers.. Permission !

[alocacoc]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension.

Many European country's do offer this. When they are convinced that you can support yourself, you are free to stay. Then, the "digital nomads" have to pay taxes on their income, they need a health insurance, social insurance and more. Finally, they are a full member of the community with rights and obligations.

Nothing bad about that.

[mrtoad]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension.

Many European country's do offer this. When they are convinced that you can support yourself, you are free to stay. Then, the "digital nomads" have to pay taxes on their income, they need a health insurance, social insurance and more. Finally, they are a full member of the community with rights and obligations.

Nothing bad about that.

I guess then they really are no longer a "nomad" then?

[chrisinth]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I would have thought that any country would welcome digital nomads - representing an 'export'. Digital nomads earn outside of Thailand and spend most of their money inside Thailand.....surely that's got to be good for the economy?

When I was in Indonesia immigration had a crack down on digital nomads for working illegally. Nett result: The landlords lost a tenant, the domestic staff put out of work, domestic staff lost their insurance cover, motorbike rental place lost a customer, taxi driver lost a customer too, local restaurants lost regular customer, the local private doctor lost a patient, and the 'banjar' lost its ability to collect local tax from the foreign resident. All in all, the $4,000 a month spent went elsewhere. Many re-located to Thailand. However, Cambodia is now on the map, VietNam too, and as soon as the internet becomes more reliable. then Thailand will also start losing this income if they see digital nomads as 'working illegally'. Digital nomads are creating jobs and providing employment, not taking it away.

so why did Indonesia crack down on "digital nomads" then ?.....if the TV threads are to believed, only xenophobic, racist Thailand will not give "digital nomads" a long term visa, indonesia, Singapore and few other places welcomes them with open arms...

If digital nomadsare not getting legal, they are not creating jobs or employment for anyone so please dont use a teneous example of how digital nomads provide jobs and income to the local noodle seller, the local noodle seller would be in business with or without "high spending" digital nomads.... alt=thumbsup.gif>

Um.....'so please dont use a teneous example of how digital nomads provide jobs' - it is in my personal experience....I didn't just make that up. I knew/know people who are 'digital nomads' or running their companies remotely and who have large houses, cars, domestic staff...not 'noodle vendor' people.....but people earning a significant income. Not all digital nomads are a guy with a laptop barely making ends meet. There is obviously a 'profile' here, or an image, regarding the standard digital nomad - however, not everyone fits that profile.

Of course the local noodle seller would be in business still.

So why did they have a clampdown in Indonesia? If what you say is true, why didn't the Indonesian government recognize this?

Either terrible oversight by them, or recognized as a trivial lose in the big picture I guess.

[tonytigerbkk]

I’m a little confused here, so could someone please set me straight.

Technically, what is the difference (in Thai law) between a digital nomad and a boiler room worker?

Was it not Juliet who said “What’s in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet”.

[AYJAYDEE]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension.

Many European country's do offer this. When they are convinced that you can support yourself, you are free to stay. Then, the "digital nomads" have to pay taxes on their income, they need a health insurance, social insurance and more. Finally, they are a full member of the community with rights and obligations.

Nothing bad about that.

so anyone from anywhere in the world can come in and set up in these countries and get this visa if they can prove they can support themselves?

[CMSteve]

I guess its the usual stuff you would expect...

Pictures

application

bank info

P&L statement

example work (portfolio) / references

health insurance

tax info

Probably missing some stuff, but if you're a REAL online worker, then you should be fine.

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension. They don't just give it to you, but its not hard to get if you are a real freelancer and have business plan. Same with some South American countries. Of course, Germany is not cheap, so most of the budding "Digital Nomads" that I've met in Thailand would not be able to survive there....yet.

and you have no reason to get in the middle of this p*ssing contest steve, yours is a well balanced, thought out post...

but out of interest, what does someone need to do in Germany to be issued this...?

[AYJAYDEE]

I guess its the usual stuff you would expect...

Pictures

application

bank info

P&L statement

example work (portfolio) / references

health insurance

tax info

Probably missing some stuff, but if you're a REAL online worker, then you should be fine.

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension. They don't just give it to you, but its not hard to get if you are a real freelancer and have business plan. Same with some South American countries. Of course, Germany is not cheap, so most of the budding "Digital Nomads" that I've met in Thailand would not be able to survive there....yet.

and you have no reason to get in the middle of this p*ssing contest steve, yours is a well balanced, thought out post...

but out of interest, what does someone need to do in Germany to be issued this...?

can you show us where this visa is described. i cant find it unless you mean the "self employed" visa and it requires a lot more than you mention

[Soutpeel]

I guess its the usual stuff you would expect...

Pictures

application

bank info

P&L statement

example work (portfolio) / references

health insurance

tax info

Probably missing some stuff, but if you're a REAL online worker, then you should be fine.

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension. They don't just give it to you, but its not hard to get if you are a real freelancer and have business plan. Same with some South American countries. Of course, Germany is not cheap, so most of the budding "Digital Nomads" that I've met in Thailand would not be able to survive there....yet.

and you have no reason to get in the middle of this p*ssing contest steve, yours is a well balanced, thought out post...

but out of interest, what does someone need to do in Germany to be issued this...?

can you show us where this visa is described. i cant find it unless you mean the "self employed" visa and it requires a lot more than you mention

It does exist it seems, see the links, but what this doesnt explain is how you get pre-approved up front, the first link seems to indicate the person already had a work visa for Germany

so it seems there is another process involved before you get to this point, it seems, if I am reading it correctly, you have to have been employed by a german company who have sponsored a WP, and it doesnt say what legal entity needs to be set up...ie do you need a Ltd company structure/partnership etc

On face value it seems it's just not a case of rocking up in Germany on a tourist visa and a lap top and setting up shop and having 3k Euro in the bank and stay as long as you want...

edit

seems you also have to register something called a, Einszelunternehmen, which we would know as a "sole proprietor" type legal entity

http://raptcat.com/2013/08/08/how-to-get-a-freelance-visa-in-germany/

http://www.internations.org/germany-expats/guide/15987-jobs-business/self-employed-work-in-germany-15997/freelancing-and-running-a-business-2

http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t252442.html

Edited August 24, 2014 by Soutpeel

[samran]

Do tell me where these mythical EU countries are where I can set up a company and so long as it earns 3000 euros a month I can stay?

I am not your research butler. Do your own research.

How does one research something that does not exist? Is this visa a bit like the Loch Ness Monster? Seen by a few crackpots but no one else? Edited August 24, 2014 by samran

[bieh]

I've been looking into the Germany freelance visa recently, actually. As I understand it, the main thing you need is to show you've got contract work ongoing, which don't necessarily have to be with German companies. Pretty simple really. I'm not sure about the requirement to register a Einszelunternehmen, that might be for a different visa class.

See here for a decent writeup: http://travelsofadam.com/2012/05/how-to-get-visa-residenc-germany-american/ -- looks reasonably doable.

Another reference: http://oldworldfrontiers.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/how-i-got-my-freelance-visa-as-an-american-artist-in-berlin/

I'm not sure exactly how much money you need to show you have though, there doesn't seem to be any firm figure. 3000eu seems to be the 'minimum' number mentioned.

[JLCrab]

Do tell me where these mythical EU countries are where I can set up a company and so long as it earns 3000 euros a month I can stay?

I am not your research butler. Do your own research.

How does one reseat something that does not exist? Is this visa a bit like the Loch Ness Monster? Seen by a few crackpots but no one else?

How does someone reseat the Loch Ness Monster? Maybe: This way, please, Nessie.

[samran]

Do tell me where these mythical EU countries are where I can set up a company and so long as it earns 3000 euros a month I can stay?

I am not your research butler. Do your own research.

How does one reseat something that does not exist? Is this visa a bit like the Loch Ness Monster? Seen by a few crackpots but no one else?

How does someone reseat the Loch Ness Monster? Maybe: This way, please, Nessie.

Apple iPhone spell corrector seems to be that reseater!

[alocacoc]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension.

Many European country's do offer this. When they are convinced that you can support yourself, you are free to stay. Then, the "digital nomads" have to pay taxes on their income, they need a health insurance, social insurance and more. Finally, they are a full member of the community with rights and obligations.

Nothing bad about that.

I guess then they really are no longer a "nomad" then?

Yes, same as these peoples here in Thailand which stay over years aren't nomads. But the Thai authorities must define and communicate clearly how long someone can stay on Tourist Visas. All these announcements bringing only more confusion into the game.

[Soutpeel]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension.

Many European country's do offer this. When they are convinced that you can support yourself, you are free to stay. Then, the "digital nomads" have to pay taxes on their income, they need a health insurance, social insurance and more. Finally, they are a full member of the community with rights and obligations.

Nothing bad about that.

I guess then they really are no longer a "nomad" then?

Yes, same as these peoples here in Thailand which stay over years aren't nomads. But the Thai authorities must define and communicate clearly how long someone can stay on Tourist Visas. All these announcements bringing only more confusion into the game.

the origin of this thread wasnt an accouncement, but rather a Journo misquoting something out of context and the "on liners" on TV jumped on the band wagon, stating conclusive proof they could work legally on a TR visa without a WP.... the question and response given had nothing to do with "on liners" Nancy L was at this meeting and confirms nothing of the sort was said...

[alocacoc]

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this pissing contest. Just wanted to point out that Germany offers a freelance visa/extension.

Many European country's do offer this. When they are convinced that you can support yourself, you are free to stay. Then, the "digital nomads" have to pay taxes on their income, they need a health insurance, social insurance and more. Finally, they are a full member of the community with rights and obligations.

Nothing bad about that.

so anyone from anywhere in the world can come in and set up in these countries and get this visa if they can prove they can support themselves?

I didn't figure out the detailed rules as I'm a member of the European Union. This members have the right to move to another EU country and stay there as long they want, as long they are able to support themselves. This could be as a employee for a company, self-employed or someone who have some savings. A EU member even don't need to explain why or how he want or can to stay in that country.

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

[Soutpeel]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

[samran]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

My thoughts exactly. But we are dealing with a bunch of people who'd struggle to order a bowl of noodles in Thai from a street vendor. Do doing all that is going to be a bit beyond them.

[theonetrueaussie]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

My thoughts exactly. But we are dealing with a bunch of people who'd struggle to order a bowl of noodles in Thai from a street vendor. Do doing all that is going to be a bit beyond them.

If all you had to do was set up a company here and pay taxes most people would do it...But you have to employ 4 thais AND the company must be 51% owned by a thai person....SO you expect people to come here and pay all the money to set up a company that you do not OWN and hire 4 thai employees that you do not need just to get a work permit...and then you wonder why people do not do it!!!

[alocacoc]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

Yes. I meant this. The different is may be, that the rules to realize this within the EU are clearer.

[Soutpeel]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

Yes. I meant this. The different is may be, that the rules to realize this within the EU are clearer.

The rules in Thailand are very clear as well, the problem is there are people who dont want to accept this or believe the rules shouldnt apply to them, hence the reason for so many pages on this thread are a pissing match...

[alocacoc]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

Yes. I meant this. The different is may be, that the rules to realize this within the EU are clearer.

The rules in Thailand are very clear as well, the problem is there are people who dont want to accept this or believe the rules shouldnt apply to them, hence the reason for so many pages on this thread are a pissing match...

May be, may be not. I can't measure it, since it doesn't affect me. But frankly, we saw and see so many times that the government got replaced. New rules coming out or older (existing) ones become to be enforced. What i want to say, it's in many kind difficult to compare Thailand with western countrys. Western countrys are in many ways more stable and sustainable.

Some examples; Thai Driving License is official not obtainable with a Tourist Visa. But we know, many had success. Some branches of the same Bank won't allow to tourists to open a saving account. Others do. Others do it only in connection with insurance. Then all the mess at the land borders. At some border the foreigner can only enter after a few visa exempts when he show cash. At other borders, no problem... and so on.

It could be hard to get proper information's about law, immigration rules... from officials.

But, all this is only my personal view, which is the reason that i don't own property here. If i decide to move on, I would be ready to do it within hours. It means, I didn't steer me in a situation, which would hurt me when i want or have to leave the Kingdom. Regarding this, I can't understand that so many foreigners which are not able or not willing to follow the rules build a life here which could end in a big disaster. But this is not my business.

As long I feel satisfied, i stay here, without to violate laws or regulations.

Edited August 24, 2014 by alocacoc

[Soutpeel]

If all you had to do was set up a company here and pay taxes most people would do it...But you have to employ 4 thais AND the company must be 51% owned by a thai person....SO you expect people to come here and pay all the money to set up a company that you do not OWN and hire 4 thai employees that you do not need just to get a work permit...and then you wonder why people do not do it!!!

I would bet even if they removed the 4 employee requirement and made you register a THB 1.0 mil capped Ltd company as a legal entity and pay preveiling income tax rates to become legal, the vast majority of on liners would still be bleating and stamping their little feet saying its racist and unfair

but to answer your question, if people are sincere about building a business in Thailand, creating employment, investing etc etc as lot of so called Digital nomads state they want to do, then yes they would, but this is not want they want to do, they want to be given long term visa's/WP's for no investment, and not pay income tax, or mininal income tax by viture of the fact they have a lap top under their arm and operate some "business" in another country, so even believe they should be given a visa because they pay VAT...

The fact is many many foreigners has done exactly what your suggesting digitial nomads shouldnt have to do in Thailand already, they have put up the cash, employed people etc etc, so my question remains why should a person with a laptop under their arm be treated any different from someone else who actually sets up a brick and mortar business ?

The "digital nomads" are not asking for visa, they are asking for a complete unheaveal and re-write of Thailands immigration, business and labour laws...how many people would this actually "benefit" ?.... a few thousand at best... not going to happen, the Thai goverment will not waste their time IMHO, they have bigger issues they need to sort out first before accomdating a group of digital road warriors, full of self entitlement and stamping their little feet..

[mrtoad]

Tim is not going to like that post☺

[ATF]

I has been said many times before the Philippines will welcome Digital Nomads with open arms so why stay in Thailand?

You don't like all the old sexpests, Thai racism, and the subjugation of women and hardly anyone speaks English.

So move on that's what nomads do right?

[MillionairePlayboy]

As long I feel satisfied, i stay here, without to violate laws or regulations.

The golden rule in Thailand is 'Don't rock the boat'.

You'd think some of thaivisa bloviating gasbags were supreme court justices in the way they parse and interpret English translations of Thai law.

The way Thai law works is first the authorities decide if you are guilty, and then they decide which law you are guilty of breaking. Since there are so many and with so many loose definitions, it's a very efficient system.

You see this application of the law clear as day in the recent 'porn in hospital toilet' case. Clearly the suspect was guilty. All that is left is to choose the law. Law chosen: misuse of computer! You couldn't make it up and yet they do.

You must be careful not to rock the boat. You need to keep an eye on what Thai authorities deem to be criminal activity. That's why an offhand comment by an immigration officer assumes such importance, and all the hair-splitting over thai law by armchair matlocks is a waste of everyone's time, including their own.

[samran]

If non-EU Members can proof, they run a business which earn enough money, they can open a company in the EU or work from there. I knew some non- EU Members who did exactly this. So, it can't be that difficult.

A bit like a foreigner arriving in Thailand, setting up a company and getting a WP you mean ?

My thoughts exactly. But we are dealing with a bunch of people who'd struggle to order a bowl of noodles in Thai from a street vendor. Do doing all that is going to be a bit beyond them.

If all you had to do was set up a company here and pay taxes most people would do it...But you have to employ 4 thais AND the company must be 51% owned by a thai person....SO you expect people to come here and pay all the money to set up a company that you do not OWN and hire 4 thai employees that you do not need just to get a work permit...and then you wonder why people do not do it!!!

But plenty do. Others go the BOI route and get 100% holdings. It isn't rocket science.

It isn't hard to protect yourself even with the 51% requirements. Votes get passed with a 75% super majority, which is impossible if you are a director and own the other 49%.

Make real value (the IP, control of assets) of the firm elsewhere say in an offshore entity in HK or Singapore. The Thai firm only acts as a service provider and does so on license.

If things go tits up and something does happen control wise at the Thai level, the 51% of nothing is exactly nothing.

As said, most of the complaints come from people who struggle to order a bowl of noodles in Thai, and such anything requiring broader interaction within Thailand 'is all just too hard'. Add to this, most of the people who have are complaining have never actually established a business and run one, then they really have no idea what they are talking about.

All the do is whinge, cause ultimately they can't find an easy way to stay here which doesn't require them to put their money where their mouths are.

Edited August 24, 2014 by samran

[makescents]

There's always Singapore for you

Singapore isn't one of those places you can wander into and start running your own company.

And EntrePass is even stricter than Thailand's company setup requirements.

[samran]

There's always Singapore for you

Singapore isn't one of those places you can wander into and start running your own company.

And EntrePass is even stricter than Thailand's company setup requirements.

Say it ain't so. You are bursting a lot of people's bubble.

[metisdead]

A post in violation of the following forum rule has been removed:

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[bkk_mike]

...

So in your professional opinion, I mean you have actually written over 13.000 posts which make you believe that you are a pro in these issues, your you telling me that if I stay here over 183 days I have to tax my income twice because i walk on Thai streets. The cash the nomads put in the Thai economy is worth twice since its generated outside Thai economy. VAT is more than enough and the Thais should be happy about this.

Oh did you miss this? "A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand"

The "nomads" do not make their cash from sources in Thailand even if they stay here full time. Even a 12 year old can comprehend this.

If you are classed as a resident for tax purposes you are usually required to pay tax on any income earned in or out of the country. There are usually a couple of tests, and one is residency or domicile. Most countries classify you as being a resident for tax purposes if you stay for 180 days or more. So if Thailand classifies you as a resident then you should pay tax on any monies earned and brought into Thailand. Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that to be the law.

OB

You've both got issues.

1. Residency for tax purposes is NOT the same as having resident status for immigration purposes. i.e. You CAN be a resident for tax purposes while on a non-resident visa. (and vice-versa, you can be non-resident in the UK for tax purposes, while remaining resident for legal purposes - as you only have a tourist or non-resident visa in Thailand)

2. There is a double taxation agreement between the UK and Thailand, so where tax has already been paid in one, that tax can be offset against the tax liability in the other. (And as UK taxes are generally higher than Thai taxes once you're making a decent income, that would usually mean no tax liability in Thailand on income already taxed in the UK, even if you do bring it into Thailand in the same year.)

IF he had a 100% legal way of being employed in Thailand remotely, then he could be paid in Thailand, and pay tax in Thailand, but as Thailand doesn't let people do that, he's stuck with being paid abroad and so the tax is paid abroad first.

Note: I used to work as a contractor for a multinational that looked into employing me in Thailand (as they have an office in Thailand) but continuing to support the system I worked on globally doing a job I essentially already did telecommuting from Thailand (my wife is Thai, so I was in the country on a non-O visa). Thai HR essentially told me I couldn't get a work permit because even though they had a Thai office, I had absolutely nothing to do with the Thai Office (system is physically installed in London, Hong Kong and New York, with users also in Tokyo, Sydney, Sao Paulo, etc. connecting remotely, but not Bangkok, and the work permit needs to show where you are in the org chart (At the time I reported to people in Tokyo and New York, which wasn't an issue for the UK which is where I was contracted through an agency, and paying tax in the UK).

I no longer live in Thailand as I ended up returning to the UK for the kids' schooling, but I worked out I would have saved a load of tax, if Thailand had simply allowed me to be employed here legally (Thai taxes are significantly lower than UK taxes in general, especially once you hit the £100K in GBP and start losing your personal allowance), and Thailand lost 2m+ baht in tax each year that they would have been first in the queue for if I'd been able to be employed here.

It's a lose-lose situation - Thailand loses out on the income tax, the person paying tax is stuck paying higher taxes abroad, and you've always got the worry about the labour department knocking on your door at some point, even if, like me, you didn't have an issue with your visa status.

The general rule is...

1. You pay tax where it's earned first.

2. You then pay tax where you live (and so long as there is a double tax agreement, you get to take off the tax you've already paid in step 1 from the amount of tax you're liable for.

3. You then pay tax in the US (if you're American OR you have a green card), but again you get to take off the amount paid in steps 1 and 2 from your US taxes.

(One reason I've never moved to the US is that 3rd point - being liable to tax regardless of whether you actually live in the country or not seems to be a US-only rule).

Edited August 24, 2014 by bkk_mike