Holocaust survivors condemn Israel's Gaza 'genocide'

[konying]

Your first post indicates that Israel had no reason to respect their original UN borders.

Your second post tells that Israel gived the land back to Gaza...???

What is it now precisely ?

There is a long history since 1947-8.

Maybe read about it before asking such silly basic questions.

There is no contradiction in my posts.

The original multiple Arab state attack on the original Israel set the stage for things to come.

Who knows what the history would have been if they had not done that?

But it is way too late for that.

I will always be amazed that Israel won that original war. The world didn't think they would, that's for sure.

UN borders of 1947 were also defined for Gaza and West Bank.

Occupation, economical boycot, colonies, enprisonment and embargo on both territories from Israel government is not really giving back the land as you stated previously.

Holocaust survivors and their beloved are well aware of that and I respect their reaction/signal to the public.

All of that did not stop Arabs to wage 3 wars which they all lost and land along with it.

Palestinians did not recognise Israel until recently , little too late.

You pick a fight, come out as a looser, go home with tail between your legs and blame yourself for poor preparation instead of the opponent for being better prepared .

[Seastallion]

Self defence is not terrorism is it.

Invasion is not self defence.

Occupation is not self defence.

Invasion with the intention of taking out military targets (rockets, launchers, tunnels, Hamas operatives) used to attack your civilians is indeed self defense.

Gaza is NOT occupied.

The current Israeli intentions are not occupation of Gaza.

Israel clearly would rather not want to be in the position of administering Gaza.

However, how this current mess in Gaza is eventually going to shake out can't be determined right now.

Gaza was actually returned to the Arabs by Israel to promote peace.

It didn't work.

I think you need a dictionary. Invasion is attacking. Iron Dome is defence.

Parts of Palestine ARE occupied and have been for a long time

How generous of them to return Gaza!.

Why didn't it work? because Gaza became a giant prison with horrid conditions forced upon the "inmates" by Israel. Not to mention the Israeli settlements and all their other crimes against the Palestinian people.

[Jingthing]

The topic is GAZA. Gaza is not currently part of Israel. Nor is there any indication that Israel WANTS it now. In this current flareup I agree Israeli troops went into Gaza but not with intention to take over the land or occupy permanently. They went in to deal with military targets and tunnels. Israel is also bombing Gaza military targets sadly often near civilian areas in retaliation for the rockets. Yes we know, we know AD NAUSEUM that the Gazan people have legit complaints against Israel AND their own thuggish radical Islamist government. But as long as Hamas rules Gaza and Israel knows materials will just be used to rearm stronger, it is fully in Israel's interest to continue to have control over what goers into Gaza. It's not nice but anything else would be suicidal for Israel.

[Seastallion]

...

Not industrial genocide. Just air plane attacks on civilian houses, schools and hospitals.

Israel goes after military targets and I'm sure you know that.

It's not Israel's fault that Hamas operates from such places.

It is intentional by Hamas obviously ... makes great propaganda when the inevitable civilian deaths occur.

Hamas needs to stop the rockets and yes the terror tunnels need to be destroyed.

Rubbish all those talks about rockets launched from civilian places and civilians used as human shields. Israel just wants to kill as much palestinians as they can. And tunnels that go into israel you can also destroy from israel without entering gaza.

That's daft. If Israel wanted to actually wipe out the population of Gaza they could have done that years ago in a few days. Please stop spreading hate inducing BIG LIES about the intentions of Israel.

That's dumber than daft. The entire world but for the Zionists and the people they finance is hardly countenancing what's happening now. The whole world would come down on Israel so heavily if Israel did that genocide it would have only it's 1947 borders left to protect, not even the 1967 borders, and Israel knows it. Israel is pushing the envelope very very far.

[Jingthing]

That's dumber than daft. The entire world but for the Zionists and the people they finance is hardly countenancing what's happening now. The whole world would come down on Israel so heavily if Israel did that genocide it would have only it's 1947 borders left to protect, not even the 1967 borders, and Israel knows it. Israel is pushing the envelope very very far.

You seem to be accusing Israel of WANTING to commit mass genocide against the Gazans. I consider that a hateful and obviously false lie. Again, any rational look at what has happened in recent weeks will show that Israel has gone after military targets that sadly are often located near civilian areas.

Hamas on the other hand DOES want to commit mass genocide on the Jews. It is in their CHARTER.

There is no MORAL EQUIVALENCY between the legitimate democratic government of Israel and the intentionally genocidal Hamas regime in Gaza.

Again we do know that Israel COULD if they wish commit mass genocide on Gazans. We also know they have not done that and the rational among us know they will not do that.

What we don't know is the future exactly. But it's fair to assume there are going to be a lot more dead on both sides in the years and maybe decades before any real resolution comes.

BTW, tragic as it has been, by no stretch of the imagination is what has happened in Gaza in recent weeks anything like actual genocide. In fact I recently read due to high birth rates the population there has actually INCREASED in this period.

[Ulysses G.]

The "whole world" did nothing about Syria with deaths near 200,000. They are certainly not going to start a war with a nuclear armed democracy.

[Douggie Style]

The problem I have is the completely disproportionate use of force..Israel has a mighty military and uses it to crush a people collectively and disproportionally.

This is a fact, not an argument.

Not only do they crush them they deny them the right to concrete, a port, paralyse them economically, kidnap, extort and distort. Basically not treat the people as they themselves could accept.

The only reason the West puts up with this is because Israeli is strategically important, has such a powerful disinformation machine including Hollywood and many unseen lobbyists with a long reach.

It is a dangerous destabilizing situation for all peoples include the Jews, and many Jewish thinkers (who have given the world so much) recognize this but are getting shouted down by the use more force brigade.

Using more force will only continue to escalate the situation and the demographics are not on Israels side, not only domestically but in many electorates in the West things are changing.

This does not bode well for Israels long term future and indeed this protest is exactly what is needed to introduce a counter point to the myopic polices continued by Netanyhu et al.

[Seastallion]

The topic is GAZA. Gaza is not currently part of Israel. Nor is there any indication that Israel WANTS it now. In this current flareup I agree Israeli troops went into Gaza but not with intention to take over the land or occupy permanently. They went in to deal with military targets and tunnels. Israel is also bombing Gaza military targets sadly often near civilian areas in retaliation for the rockets. Yes we know, we know AD NAUSEUM that the Gazan people have legit complaints against Israel AND their own thuggish radical Islamist government. But as long as Hamas rules Gaza and Israel knows materials will just be used to rearm stronger, it is fully in Israel's interest to continue to have control over what goers into Gaza. It's not nice but anything else would be suicidal for Israel.

Very interesting how you say there's no indication that Israel wants Gaza NOW.

There's a clear implication there.

Perhaps the Gazan's legitimate complaints would not have been repeated ad nauseum if the Israeli apologists had simply conceded those points a long time ago instead of defending Israel's actions and position and blindly ignoring the points.

[Jingthing]

Funny ... as Israel is now at war Israel is massively unified under Netanyhu's leadership. The left, right, and center. Hamas can stop the rockets, agree to demilitarize, and there can be progress. It's hard to ignore the clear real intention of Hamas -- Palestine, from the river to the sea WITH NO JEWS.

[RickBradford]

Boko Haram have slaughtered thousands of Christians in Nigeria, IS are heading the same way against Christians, Yazidi and Iraqi Turkmen, never mind Syria and Libya, and people are accusing Israel of attempting to commit genocide?

Ah, I forgot -- it's all because Islam is a "religion of peace". I know, because Barack Obama and the BBC told me.

[arjunadawn]

Good to see Jewish people coming out in opposition to the bloodthirsty Netanyahu regime. Follows on from the reports of the 50 Israelis a few weeks ago who refused to participate in the unjust and inhumane invasion of Gaza. Incidents such as these are great ammunition for undermining the anti-semitism that Israel's warmongering is feeding.

I hope these signatories do not suffer the same fate as do "peaceniks" in Israel, with the abuse and threats to which they are regularly subjected.

Jews have no more moral authority than I do, or you. Whether genocide survivors or generation X'ers, their position only has legitimacy insofar as it's valid. I grant to none, because of their personal or collective history, exclusive claim to be arbiters of right and wrong. Exceptions to any rule deserve to be considered in context. Because they posses the title "Jew" their indicting other Jews reveals independent thinking, but not necessarily meaningful points or truth.

It's correct: Ba'alists stopped child sacrifice in the valley of the children of hinnom long ago. The current contrast is not subtle- it's striking. Hamas and local Arabs continue policies and impulses that indoctrinate the sacrifice of others, and children. How utterly appalling any human can rationalize or equivocate this point. The selective ethical relativity says volumes about the Jews, or others, who ignore this point in pursuit of their arguments sterilizing Hamas slaughter of Jews, their citizens, children, society...

Lotta big words in there.........we be nothin but humble pirates.

Gosh, I know your not being rude. I have been told this repeatedly. I don't try to be like this and do like to go back and forth with others. I sit, think, type, and its done. But your point is not invalid wrong. Others say the same. My point is lost if this is what others think. I am sorry because I do like to discuss this, and don't mean to be a dumbass like this. I will try to be more percise to the point because my goal is to chat.

[Douggie Style]

I would like to see some solutions, all the discussions degenerate into stongly polarised positions..funny that

[Seastallion]

...

Not industrial genocide. Just air plane attacks on civilian houses, schools and hospitals.

Israel goes after military targets and I'm sure you know that.

It's not Israel's fault that Hamas operates from such places.

It is intentional by Hamas obviously ... makes great propaganda when the inevitable civilian deaths occur.

Hamas needs to stop the rockets and yes the terror tunnels need to be destroyed.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth, (thanks to Israel's policy of imprisoning them there). The militants don't have many places to go. It's not intentional, it's unavoidable!

[konying]

Self defence is not terrorism is it.

Invasion is not self defence.

Occupation is not self defence.

Invasion with the intention of taking out military targets (rockets, launchers, tunnels, Hamas operatives) used to attack your civilians is indeed self defense.

Gaza is NOT occupied.

The current Israeli intentions are not occupation of Gaza.

Israel clearly would rather not want to be in the position of administering Gaza.

However, how this current mess in Gaza is eventually going to shake out can't be determined right now.

Gaza was actually returned to the Arabs by Israel to promote peace.

It didn't work.

I think you need a dictionary. Invasion is attacking. Iron Dome is defence.

Parts of Palestine ARE occupied and have been for a long time

How generous of them to return Gaza!.

Why didn't it work? because Gaza became a giant prison with horrid conditions forced upon the "inmates" by Israel. Not to mention the Israeli settlements and all their other crimes against the Palestinian people.

Something very basic you seem to not understand. There never was a state of Palestine.

Again , there is no law requiring a country to be friendly with its hostile neighbour .

Gaza could use Egyptian border , but sadly for them , that is also closed.

Why do not you make your claims of prison to Egypt , after all they are brothers

[konying]

...

Not industrial genocide. Just air plane attacks on civilian houses, schools and hospitals.

Israel goes after military targets and I'm sure you know that.

It's not Israel's fault that Hamas operates from such places.

It is intentional by Hamas obviously ... makes great propaganda when the inevitable civilian deaths occur.

Hamas needs to stop the rockets and yes the terror tunnels need to be destroyed.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth, (thanks to Israel's policy of imprisoning them there). The militants don't have many places to go. It's not intentional, it's unavoidable!

So it's Israels fault so many Arabs want to live in Gaza? And Israels fault those Arabs are not welcome in any other Arab country?

[konying]

I would like to see some solutions, all the discussions degenerate into stongly polarised positions..funny that

There are no solutions .

Israel gave back Gaza, all of it unconditionally.

10 days later, Arabs started to fire rockets into Israel .

Have you seen Hamas 10 demands?

They demand to have control over Egyptian border, but demanding it from Israel .

It's beyond comprehension .

[Jingthing]

I would like to see some solutions, all the discussions degenerate into stongly polarised positions..funny that

The "discussions" here do rather reflect the actual conflict. Not close to peace, that's for sure.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/battered-hamas-more-determined-than-ever-to-kill-israelis/

Mashaal and his people in Gaza are trying hard now to replace the Egyptian channel with one involving the Americans, Qatar and Turkey and to maximize their military gains in the meantime — that is, to kill as many Israelis as possible, even if this means dozens of Gaza apartment buildings being blown up in Israeli airstrikes seeking out those who are responsible. In Gaza, the despair is acute, but Hamas certainly is unmoved by the sight of the bodies and the destroyed buildings. As has been stated before, Mashaal is following the Muslim Brotherhood agenda, and is prepared to fight to the last drop of Gaza residents’ blood

[Ulysses G.]

The problem I have is the completely disproportionate use of force..

If it were not for "force", Israel would not exist. The Palestinians in Gaza declared war on Israel 66 years ago and have never stopped fighting. They have even elected a terrorist organization to govern them.

The Arabs had military superiority over Israel when they attacked them in 1948 and were vanquished in short order. The same thing happened several times afterwards, until Israel built up one of the best armies in the world and the Palestinians strictly turned to ineffectual terrorism instead.

If they stopped provoking a much superior foe, they would not have all these problems that they have caused themselves.

[joepublic]

Nobel prize-winning author Elie Wiesel is a great man.

Jews rejected child sacrifice 3,500 years ago. Now it's Hamas' turn.

In my own lifetime, I have seen Jewish children thrown into the fire. And now I have seen Muslim children used as human shields, in both cases, by worshippers of death cults indistinguishable from that of the Molochites.

What we are suffering through today is not a battle of Jew versus Arab or Israeli versus Palestinian. Rather, it is a battle between those who celebrate life and those who champion death. It is a battle of civilization versus barbarism.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/01/elie-wiesel-condemns-hamas-for-using-children-as-human-shields-calls-on-gazans-to-reject-hamass-child-sacrifice/

The name "Jewish 'Anti-Zionist' Network" speaks for itself - a bunch of loons.

Ahh, we see you reach for the "Avoid the issue, apply the labels" technique of Zionism Propaganda

Only a hardcore Zionist spokesperson can reject the words of 300 holocaust survivors who tell us what Zionism is doing to the people of Palestine, by calling them "loons". People who have actually lived through the brutality that the Zionists are passing on to the Arabs who did nothing against the European Askenazi settlers.

Im sure he thinks his response is smart, but its totally transparent we can see that he totally dispensed with any pretense of objectivity about the situation because he simply cannot face the facts as stated by people who are qualified to speak about the subject.

[Ulysses G.]

How are this group of 40 any more "qualified" to speak than Nobel prize-winning author Elie Wiesel?

His response is smart, because it is entirely accurate. Hamas is encouraging Palestinians to act as human shields and there is plenty of evidence to prove it.

[Seastallion]

Invasion with the intention of taking out military targets (rockets, launchers, tunnels, Hamas operatives) used to attack your civilians is indeed self defense.

Gaza is NOT occupied.

The current Israeli intentions are not occupation of Gaza.

Israel clearly would rather not want to be in the position of administering Gaza.

However, how this current mess in Gaza is eventually going to shake out can't be determined right now.

Gaza was actually returned to the Arabs by Israel to promote peace.

It didn't work.

I think you need a dictionary. Invasion is attacking. Iron Dome is defence.

Parts of Palestine ARE occupied and have been for a long time

How generous of them to return Gaza!.

Why didn't it work? because Gaza became a giant prison with horrid conditions forced upon the "inmates" by Israel. Not to mention the Israeli settlements and all their other crimes against the Palestinian people.

Something very basic you seem to not understand. There never was a state of Palestine.

Again , there is no law requiring a country to be friendly with its hostile neighbour .

Gaza could use Egyptian border , but sadly for them , that is also closed.

Why do not you make your claims of prison to Egypt , after all they are brothers

Have you ever tried to enter Gaza by sea? Are you not aware of what happens to peaceful aid ships that do try to dock on the Gaza coast?

That aside....as you well know, the Egyptian border is as it is because of Israeli pressure upon Egypt....but put that aside too....Gazans struggle to get out to go to the West Bank to visit family, or to get to medical professionals. Stop being so pedantic, you know Gaza is a virtual prison.

[Beetlejuice]

What many people fail to understand is that the majority of European Jews have no associations with Israel other than perhaps in their prayer books.

[Seastallion]

I would like to see some solutions, all the discussions degenerate into stongly polarised positions..funny that

There are no solutions .

Israel gave back Gaza, all of it unconditionally.

10 days later, Arabs started to fire rockets into Israel .

Have you seen Hamas 10 demands?

They demand to have control over Egyptian border, but demanding it from Israel .

It's beyond comprehension .

It's not beyond comprehension to anyone with intelligence.

Israel has political muscle with Egypt via the USA.

[Ulysses G.]

What many people fail to understand is that the majority of European Jews have no associations with Israel other than perhaps in their prayer books.

Who cares? Most Israeli Jews were born there and plenty are descendants of Middle Eastern Jewish families that had never even been to Europe.

[Ulysses G.]

I would like to see some solutions, all the discussions degenerate into stongly polarised positions..funny that

There are no solutions .

Israel gave back Gaza, all of it unconditionally.

10 days later, Arabs started to fire rockets into Israel .

Have you seen Hamas 10 demands?

They demand to have control over Egyptian border, but demanding it from Israel .

It's beyond comprehension .

It's not beyond comprehension to anyone with intelligence.

Israel has political muscle with Egypt via the USA.

It's not beyond comprehension to anyone with intelligence.

Egypt thinks that Hamas are Islamic terrorists that are allied with the Muslim Brotherhood and causing problems for them.

[Seastallion]

...

Not industrial genocide. Just air plane attacks on civilian houses, schools and hospitals.

Israel goes after military targets and I'm sure you know that.

It's not Israel's fault that Hamas operates from such places.

It is intentional by Hamas obviously ... makes great propaganda when the inevitable civilian deaths occur.

Hamas needs to stop the rockets and yes the terror tunnels need to be destroyed.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth, (thanks to Israel's policy of imprisoning them there). The militants don't have many places to go. It's not intentional, it's unavoidable!

So it's Israels fault so many Arabs want to live in Gaza? And Israels fault those Arabs are not welcome in any other Arab country?

Your post is so bereft of sense it's laughable. I'm sure even JT could correct you if he was willing.

They are enclosed within the boundaries of Gaza, by force!

[Ulysses G.]

Because Hamas sent bombers and rockets into Israel when there was NO BLOCKADE. Whose fault is that.

[konying]

The problem I have is the completely disproportionate use of force..Israel has a mighty military and uses it to crush a people collectively and disproportionally.

This is a fact, not an argument.

Not only do they crush them they deny them the right to concrete, a port, paralyse them economically, kidnap, extort and distort. Basically not treat the people as they themselves could accept.

The only reason the West puts up with this is because Israeli is strategically important, has such a powerful disinformation machine including Hollywood and many unseen lobbyists with a long reach.

It is a dangerous destabilizing situation for all peoples include the Jews, and many Jewish thinkers (who have given the world so much) recognize this but are getting shouted down by the use more force brigade.

Using more force will only continue to escalate the situation and the demographics are not on Israels side, not only domestically but in many electorates in the West things are changing.

This does not bode well for Israels long term future and indeed this protest is exactly what is needed to introduce a counter point to the myopic polices continued by Netanyhu et al.

Well in reality it is actually very proportionate.

Hamas fires 160 rockets, Israel does 90 air strikes, if anything Israel owes another 70 air strikes to be even.

The question is what does Hamas do to protect civilians? and putting aside using them as shields, Hamas does nothing.

Hamas could let civilians use tunnels as bomb shelters, but its reserved for Hamas fighters only.

Israel on the other hand, has built bomb shelters all over the country, pretty much most houses has one or near by.

One certainly does not build bomb shelters in such numbers if your neighbors are so lovely and friendly

[konying]

I would like to see some solutions, all the discussions degenerate into stongly polarised positions..funny that

There are no solutions .

Israel gave back Gaza, all of it unconditionally.

10 days later, Arabs started to fire rockets into Israel .

Have you seen Hamas 10 demands?

They demand to have control over Egyptian border, but demanding it from Israel .

It's beyond comprehension .

It's not beyond comprehension to anyone with intelligence.

Israel has political muscle with Egypt via the USA.

Thats rather strange, considering US had little say in all the killings that took place in Egypt under military crack down.

US also seems to have little say when Egyptian media demonizes Israel.

US also appeared to have little say when Israeli Embassy was attacked and party destroyed in Egypt.

Me thinks, your comprehension or intelligence is little off, as usual

[konying]

Your post is so bereft of sense it's laughable. I'm sure even JT could correct you if he was willing.

They are enclosed within the boundaries of Gaza, by force!

Take it up with brothers over in Egypt.

Third time, since you missed it the first 2, there is no law requiring a country to keep its borders open to a hostile neighbor.

Please do try to understand it