Trouble starting the car.

[Deacon Bell]

Had the car a few months and all the electrics have always seemed perfect.

Filled up with gas at the weekend and upon ignition the power just seemed to die or be drained away and it wouldn't turn over. At about the fifth attempt, after turning off the fan/aircon units it fired up and went perfectly.

It's happened again since, and only seems to happen when we try to start it with the aircon/fan on. At the first key click when all the dash lights come on (along with the aircon and fan), they all fade away and the power will be gone by the time the next click to start the engine so it doesn't turn over.

My obvious diagnosis is that with the aircon on without the engine being on, it drains the power.

Does this sound simply like a battery power issue? or some thing like an alternator or something else?

(Car is 4 yrs old btw)

[wilcopops]

It sounds at first reading like a flat battery.

so.....

my first job would be check the battery terminals - undo them, clean them and re-attach - make sure they make a good contact.

Second borrow a battery from a similar vehicle known to be OK and try it out. - If the problems go away - Bob's your uncle....or is it????

You need to know WHY the battery is flat.....

Batteries nowadays often seem to die after about a year or two - how old is your battery? In some countries the first cold snap puts them out - here they don't like the heat. - in some evaporation is a problem.

So is the battery actually charging? - well a quick trip to a garage and they can test that, they can test your battery for holding power too.....I would do those checks above with another battery first though......that way they can't con you into buying a new battery when the old is still OK.

You can't run the air without having the engine on - the compressor for the air is powered off the engine.

You can run the fan, but I wouldn't expect it to drain a healthy battery very quickly.

Edited August 27, 2014 by wilcopops

[transam]

Sounds like the battery..........

PS. I fitted an electric backup fan on my fun ride to find it blew a 20amp fuse on start up .

30amp fuse solved it, so l assume they use a lot of amps when running.

Edited August 28, 2014 by transam

[Deacon Bell]

Thanks all. I think we'll take it to a mechanic's shop to try and get them to test the battery.

Also when cold there is quite a bit of white condensation/smoke. Sweet smelling, not exactly smoke, more like steam I suppose.

The internet says everything from it being normal with cars that have catalytic convertors to it being a sign of coolant leaks. It only happens when the car is cold in the morning.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[transam]

A silencer (muffler) can/does accumulate water from condensation, when you start up the heat evaporates it and you get white mist out the back, quite normal unless you do have a head gasket problem. Most mufflers rust away from the inside because of this.....

[ozsamurai]

'Cranking Power' derives from two things, voltage (normally a car battery should have 12.6v standing) and amperage (this is written on the battery, 75Amp is the most common), If the initial kick is not enough to start the engine, then it will drain amperage for longer cranking times. When you repeat this a few times you wear out your battery unless you do long enough drives to fully recharge it, which most of us don't.

Also the added loads we put on the battery (running AC 24/7) doesn't give them a chance to recharge even if the alternator is working at the full 14v. To shorten crank time, you would look at the usual culprits, air and fuel and fire. Sparks are easy to check, fuel pump, injectors. When you are sure all these are good then I would get a battery check done.

If you replace the battery without getting to the cause of the long crank, you will just kill a new battery (3-4000 Bht) in a few months and be back where you started.

Oz

[Deacon Bell]

Thanks.

We always have the aircon on (usually on the coldest setting) while we drive. Always without fail.

So possibly this is taking recharging power away from the battery..... if I'm reading it correctly.

[transam]

Thanks.

We always have the aircon on (usually on the coldest setting) while we drive. Always without fail.

So possibly this is taking recharging power away from the battery..... if I'm reading it correctly.

Me too, but load is taken care of by the correct size battery and a charge system to cope with the rides electrical needs.

[Deacon Bell]

What parts make up the 'charge system' and how to check them or replaces them?

[transam]

Two things, a battery and an alternator. Both are provided to cope with everything electrical on the ride, though in my experience charging the battery comes well after off idle. One can upgrade to a higher amp battery and alternator if one has increased load over stock.

[Deacon Bell]

Is there a way to check the status of the alternator, without too much difficulty?

[transam]

Is there a way to check the status of the alternator, without too much difficulty?

Yep, buy a tester in Tesco. Set to DC voltage, not AC. Test the batteries voltage, should be 12.7 for a good battery. Start the engine and test again, should read between 13.5 and 14 volts.

This does NOT tell you if the battery amps are OK but will tell you if the battery is being charged even if it is naff.

[Deacon Bell]

Great thanks. Will buy one of them today.

I let the car run for about 30 minutes last night, hoping it would charge up the battery. This morning the engine turned over without so much as a light dim on the dash.

So early diagnosis might be that running it with the aircon on all the time while driving doesn't allow the battery to recharge fully.

Will report back on the voltage test tonight.

Thanks again.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[stevenl]

Sometimed the experts can make life too complicated. Really sounds like a very simple and basic (almost) dead battery.

[Deacon Bell]

Sometimed the experts can make life too complicated. Really sounds like a very simple and basic (almost) dead battery.

Could be.

The strange thing that I found, was that there was no gradual loss of electrical power at all, just suddenly after a long drive with the aircon and fan on (as always) we stopped to get gas and upon starting the car the power was drained and it took 5 times of trying to start it to tick over.

Anyway, will get the voltage tester today to check what sort of voltage is there.

[transam]

Sometimed the experts can make life too complicated. Really sounds like a very simple and basic (almost) dead battery.

Could be.

The strange thing that I found, was that there was no gradual loss of electrical power at all, just suddenly after a long drive with the aircon and fan on (as always) we stopped to get gas and upon starting the car the power was drained and it took 5 times of trying to start it to tick over.

Anyway, will get the voltage tester today to check what sort of voltage is there.

Believe it or not, if the battery reads 12.5 or less it is on it's way out..

[wilcopops]

When it comes to automobiles there are, broadly speaking, 3 main categories

Fitter

Mechanic and

Engineer

Fitters call themselves mechanics and mechanics call themselves engineers and Engineers just look on and smile wryly.

The difference between a fitter or even a mechanic and an engineer is that an engineer can analyse a problem and design a solution.

This is done scientifically.

lesser mortals tend to work through "association" rather than diagnose through "causation"

the result is they love to talk about the wierd and wonderful, looking for exotic causes where there are none ("but there COULD be")

there are a lot of "fitters" on this post.

Now sit back and wait for the fools to declare they are engineers........largely because it says so on their overalls. (Engineers in overalls??)

Edited August 29, 2014 by wilcopops

[PoorSucker]

Have you filled up your battery regularly with distilled water?

If not it's dead.

You need a new battery, 4 years is a long time in this climate.

[transam]

When it comes to automobiles there are, broadly speaking, 3 main categories

Fitter

Mechanic and

Engineer

Fitters call themselves mechanics and mechanics call themselves engineers and Engineers just look on and smile wryly.

The difference between a fitter or even a mechanic and an engineer is that an engineer can analyse a problem and design a solution.

This is done scientifically.

lesser mortals tend to work through "association" rather than diagnose through "causation"

the result is they love to talk about the wierd and wonderful, looking for exotic causes where there are none ("but there COULD be")

there are a lot of "fitters" on this post.

Now sit back and wait for the fools to declare they are engineers........largely because it says so on their overalls. (Engineers in overalls??)

What would you call me then ?

I am someone who can make/turn a replacement/custom part on a lathe, or mig stuff to create/fabricate custom brackets or exhaust systems. Can rebuild an engine. Fabricate custom N2O systems, rebuild a gearbox, and much more.

PS. Have also worked on motorcycles destroyed in the British Motor Cycle Museum, plus other vintage machines.

[Deacon Bell]

Have you filled up your battery regularly with distilled water?

If not it's dead.

You need a new battery, 4 years is a long time in this climate.

We only bought the car 6-8 weeks ago. No idea of the battery history.

When we bought it though the battery looked like this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744808-is-this-damaged/

Which has since been cleaned up.

Not wanting to derail the thread any more, about how much does it cost to recharge a battery at a mechanics shop, and how long does it usually take?

Is there any time/date stamp on a battery, like on a tire's wall that shows the date of original charging?

Thanks.

[Kwasaki]

What car is it, a 4 year old car is not old and with your problem as said it can only be the battery, get a new heavy duty GS battery, I have found them to be at a reasonable cost around 2000 baht.

[wilcopops]

Have you filled up your battery regularly with distilled water?

If not it's dead.

You need a new battery, 4 years is a long time in this climate.

We only bought the car 6-8 weeks ago. No idea of the battery history.

When we bought it though the battery looked like this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/744808-is-this-damaged/

Which has since been cleaned up.

Not wanting to derail the thread any more, about how much does it cost to recharge a battery at a mechanics shop, and how long does it usually take?

Is there any time/date stamp on a battery, like on a tire's wall that shows the date of original charging?

Thanks.

I wouldn't mess about trying to revive a dead battery, just get rid and put in a new one......

[wilcopops]

When it comes to automobiles there are, broadly speaking, 3 main categories

Fitter

Mechanic and

Engineer

Fitters call themselves mechanics and mechanics call themselves engineers and Engineers just look on and smile wryly.

The difference between a fitter or even a mechanic and an engineer is that an engineer can analyse a problem and design a solution.

This is done scientifically.

lesser mortals tend to work through "association" rather than diagnose through "causation"

the result is they love to talk about the wierd and wonderful, looking for exotic causes where there are none ("but there COULD be")

there are a lot of "fitters" on this post.

Now sit back and wait for the fools to declare they are engineers........largely because it says so on their overalls. (Engineers in overalls??)

What would you call me then ?

I am someone who can make/turn a replacement/custom part on a lathe, or mig stuff to create/fabricate custom brackets or exhaust systems. Can rebuild an engine. Fabricate custom N2O systems, rebuild a gearbox, and much more.

PS. Have also worked on motorcycles destroyed in the British Motor Cycle Museum, plus other vintage machines.

Doesn't sound like an engineer as you would be telling me your Charted society/professional body.

People who list "jobs" they can do are those who are taught by engineers. It's a term that many non-engineers aspire to, or erroneously start using as they get more and more self-important over the years.

Hope I haven't disappointed you.

Edited August 29, 2014 by wilcopops

[transam]

When it comes to automobiles there are, broadly speaking, 3 main categories

Fitter

Mechanic and

Engineer

Fitters call themselves mechanics and mechanics call themselves engineers and Engineers just look on and smile wryly.

The difference between a fitter or even a mechanic and an engineer is that an engineer can analyse a problem and design a solution.

This is done scientifically.

lesser mortals tend to work through "association" rather than diagnose through "causation"

the result is they love to talk about the wierd and wonderful, looking for exotic causes where there are none ("but there COULD be")

there are a lot of "fitters" on this post.

Now sit back and wait for the fools to declare they are engineers........largely because it says so on their overalls. (Engineers in overalls??)

What would you call me then ?

I am someone who can make/turn a replacement/custom part on a lathe, or mig stuff to create/fabricate custom brackets or exhaust systems. Can rebuild an engine. Fabricate custom N2O systems, rebuild a gearbox, and much more.

PS. Have also worked on motorcycles destroyed in the British Motor Cycle Museum, plus other vintage machines.

Doesn't sound like an engineer as you would be telling me your Charted society/professional body.

People who list "jobs" they can do are those who are taught by engineers. It's a term that many non-engineers aspire to, or erroneously start using as they get more and more self-important over the years.

Hope I haven't disappointed you.

Nooooooooot disappointed with your remarks . My hands on achievements are my credentials, I learned by trial and error over many years .

Though I do have basic passes in Engineering Workshop Practice and Engineering Drawing (draftsmanship) which gave me a good start. My chum in the UK has an Engineering Bachelors Degree with Hons, but I did stuff for him .

[transam]

OP, seems I am in the same boat as you. Tested the battery this morning after a good charge yesterday, 12.4 volts , engine running 13.6.

My well trained ear tells me the engine is not cranking over as it should be too. Looks like new battery time.

[Deacon Bell]

I know it's common enough for people to recharge scooter batteries here, how about cars?

How to know if you have a dry or wet battery, and if wet, how to check if it needs to be topped up?

Edited August 29, 2014 by Deacon Bell

[transam]

When it comes to automobiles there are, broadly speaking, 3 main categories

Fitter

Mechanic and

Engineer

Fitters call themselves mechanics and mechanics call themselves engineers and Engineers just look on and smile wryly.

The difference between a fitter or even a mechanic and an engineer is that an engineer can analyse a problem and design a solution.

This is done scientifically.

lesser mortals tend to work through "association" rather than diagnose through "causation"

the result is they love to talk about the wierd and wonderful, looking for exotic causes where there are none ("but there COULD be")

there are a lot of "fitters" on this post.

Now sit back and wait for the fools to declare they are engineers........largely because it says so on their overalls. (Engineers in overalls??)

What would you call me then ?

I am someone who can make/turn a replacement/custom part on a lathe, or mig stuff to create/fabricate custom brackets or exhaust systems. Can rebuild an engine. Fabricate custom N2O systems, rebuild a gearbox, and much more.

PS. Have also worked on motorcycles destroyed in the British Motor Cycle Museum, plus other vintage machines.

Doesn't sound like an engineer as you would be telling me your Charted society/professional body.

People who list "jobs" they can do are those who are taught by engineers. It's a term that many non-engineers aspire to, or erroneously start using as they get more and more self-important over the years.

Hope I haven't disappointed you.

Heres one for you wilco, take a look at this photo. I designed and machined myself this Poly-V pulley system (4 pulleys) out of T6 alloy to replace V belts to use a Jap alternator and reposition it, as well as the steering pump. Sooo, am I a fitter, mechanic or engineer...?

[transam]

I know it's common enough for people to recharge scooter batteries here, how about cars?

How to know if you have a dry or wet battery, and if wet, how to check if it needs to be topped up?

A battery that needs top up will have removable caps or a plastic strip to check levels. Unscrew the caps or strip, look inside, the water level should be topped up to reach the level of the plastic which is about an inch down inside each hole with distilled water. A sealed batter doesn't need top up.

[thailoht]

OP, seems I am in the same boat as you. Tested the battery this morning after a good charge yesterday, 12.4 volts , engine running 13.6.

My well trained ear tells me the engine is not cranking over as it should be too. Looks like new battery time.

Uh-oh!!!

Is this the battery in your pimped-up blue pickup?

How old is it?

[transam]

OP, seems I am in the same boat as you. Tested the battery this morning after a good charge yesterday, 12.4 volts , engine running 13.6.

My well trained ear tells me the engine is not cranking over as it should be too. Looks like new battery time.

Uh-oh!!!

Is this the battery in your pimped-up blue pickup?

How old is it?

Exactly 3 years old Boliden...BUT......When Mrs.Trans brought it back from BKK it was laid on it's side in the coach and a lot of the liquid drained out . Sooo, I never had the advertised 110 amps and for sure has something to do with it not lasting longer........