"Face" need to earn some before you have any to lose?

[willyumiii]

I have visited Thailand often for over thirteen years before starting to live here full time three years ago and I am still not clear on the concept of "FACE".

At this point my take on it is that it is lost when someone points out that you are wrong or stupid.

It is confusing to me that it seems that the person who points out that you have done something wrong or stupid is the bad person, not the wrong or stupid person!!!

Is face something like integrity?

Something you earn and develop after years of doing the right thing?

You lose some or all of it if you mess up and people realize it?

If nobody finds out you messed up, you are still o.k.? ( at this point, it reminds me of American politics! lol)

Or...is face something you are born with,or maybe inherit from your family?

Or..is it just something your imagination and ego have convinced you that you possess?

Nobody likes to be treated cruelly or ridiculed, but, where I come from constructive criticism is considered a tool used to build a better life with fewer errors.

Here in Thailand, it seems that any insinuation that you are not perfect, is the ultimate insult!

Obviously, I do not have the answers, but I am very interested in any explanations any serious,, or even humorous TV members may have.

An explanation form a Thai member of TV may be very enlightening as well.

In my years of reading the TV forum, I have seen face mentioned countless times, but never really defined.

Can anyone define it?

[beachproperty]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

Edited September 3, 2014 by beachproperty

[claffey]

Everybody has Face

[h90]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

[Gecko123]

I'm left wondering whether this is one of those eternal questions best left unasked and unanswered.

[benalibina]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

Your last line .....is not correct. People everywhere, in general, not like to confront each other on trivial issues but about serious matters people in the West are way more inclined to tell the truth, thus confront and give an uneasy feeling to the recipient, than in Thai culture. Add to this the explanation of WHY they hold a certain opinion regarding the recipient makes the difference. Confrontation is more perceived in the West as being helpfull and caring about the other. Maturity ?

[herb59]

definition: face is in the upper part of the body. normally between 2 ears. sometimes no brain in the rear area.

[scorecard]

It's obviously not easy to define face, here's my thoughts on some aspects of face:

- You might be rich and powerful, but that doesn't mean you automatically have face. Some rich (and some poor) are severely disliked because they are unpleasant

even dangerous people, but in many situations people quickly wai to them, give them extra service, which might give an appearance they have face, but often the

wai, extra service, extra politeness is from fear of that person not from respect.

- A labourer might well appear to have no social status but if you make him look stupid in front of others you have caused him 'to lose face' and it's well possible he will

strongly react to 'having lost face', possibly meaning revenge, even if it takes some time to get revenge.

But are both of these scenarios exclusive to Thai society / Thai culture? No.

Similar 'things; perhaps dressed a little differently are found in most cultures.

[Berkshire]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

I think you have a point. I'm not sure why Farangs in Thailand get so confused about this because it does occur all the time in the west. Causing someone to "lose face" is the same as "publicly humiliating" someone. No one wants that. Farangs in Thailand seem to say--if farangs engage in face-saving, it's ok. If Thais do it, it's not. I see face-saving on this forum all the time. Farangs on TV rarely come back and admit that they're wrong about anything. Afraid to lose face? Who knows.

Perhaps the difference between Thais and farangs is that Thais will generally refrain from intentionally causing someone else to lose face, whereas farangs have no qualms about that. But in terms of not wanting to lose one's own "face?" Same same between Thais and farangs.

[rethaier]

I think, especially in Scorecard's post, that there there is confusion between face and respect. Losing face to me, seems like what we call bruising someones ego. The only difference between my country, Australia, and Thailand is that here if you bruise someones ego too badly the consequences can be fatal. Maybe this is too simplistic but it's the closest analogy I can draw.

[seajae]

face is more of an ego thing, its how big you think your d*ck is, how important you think you are, how good you think you are, how much better than others you think you are etc etc. In reality its all bullsh*t, respect is more important and that is earned, something a lot here are not capable of.

[Rykbanlor]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

I think you have a point. I'm not sure why Farangs in Thailand get so confused about this because it does occur all the time in the west. Causing someone to "lose face" is the same as "publicly humiliating" someone. No one wants that. Farangs in Thailand seem to say--if farangs engage in face-saving, it's ok. If Thais do it, it's not. I see face-saving on this forum all the time. Farangs on TV rarely come back and admit that they're wrong about anything. Afraid to lose face? Who knows.

Perhaps the difference between Thais and farangs is that Thais will generally refrain from intentionally causing someone else to lose face, whereas farangs have no qualms about that. But in terms of not wanting to lose one's own "face?" Same same between Thais and farangs.

Exactly, Berkshire. It's no big mystery.

[seajae]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

I think you have a point. I'm not sure why Farangs in Thailand get so confused about this because it does occur all the time in the west. Causing someone to "lose face" is the same as "publicly humiliating" someone. No one wants that. Farangs in Thailand seem to say--if farangs engage in face-saving, it's ok. If Thais do it, it's not. I see face-saving on this forum all the time. Farangs on TV rarely come back and admit that they're wrong about anything. Afraid to lose face? Who knows.

Perhaps the difference between Thais and farangs is that Thais will generally refrain from intentionally causing someone else to lose face, whereas farangs have no qualms about that. But in terms of not wanting to lose one's own "face?" Same same between Thais and farangs.

wrong, we dont go and beat up the mans wife, daughter , mother and young kids where as thais do, they are too gutless to fight the person that has caused their loss of face so they then either get a heap of friends to help beat the crap out of him, get a weapon and kill him or attack his family. They are basically pathetic and lack any common sense, ie, they have no balls at all.

[CMCMANGOMAN]

"Oh ye of little face..."

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I think, especially in Scorecard's post, that there there is confusion between face and respect. Losing face to me, seems like what we call bruising someones ego. The only difference between my country, Australia, and Thailand is that here if you bruise someones ego too badly the consequences can be fatal. Maybe this is too simplistic but it's the closest analogy I can draw.

And I would agree, IMHO face and respect have some connection but at the same time they can be stand alone concepts.

The word ego is certainly part of it.

I will go back to my example of the labourer, someone says something to make him look stupid, verbally abuses him etc., and he has now lost face. It could also be said that he feels he has been made to lose the respect of others.

[NoshowJones]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

I think you have a point. I'm not sure why Farangs in Thailand get so confused about this because it does occur all the time in the west. Causing someone to "lose face" is the same as "publicly humiliating" someone. No one wants that. Farangs in Thailand seem to say--if farangs engage in face-saving, it's ok. If Thais do it, it's not. I see face-saving on this forum all the time. Farangs on TV rarely come back and admit that they're wrong about anything. Afraid to lose face? Who knows.

Perhaps the difference between Thais and farangs is that Thais will generally refrain from intentionally causing someone else to lose face, whereas farangs have no qualms about that. But in terms of not wanting to lose one's own "face?" Same same between Thais and farangs.

wrong, we dont go and beat up the mans wife, daughter , mother and young kids where as thais do, they are too gutless to fight the person that has caused their loss of face so they then either get a heap of friends to help beat the crap out of him, get a weapon and kill him or attack his family. They are basically pathetic and lack any common sense, ie, they have no balls at all.

The only thing you may have right here generally, is most Thais are likely to get back up to confront anyone who causes them to lose face, the rest is nonsense. The lack of common sense thing is mainly to do with driving or riding motorbikes.

[h90]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

I think you have a point. I'm not sure why Farangs in Thailand get so confused about this because it does occur all the time in the west. Causing someone to "lose face" is the same as "publicly humiliating" someone. No one wants that. Farangs in Thailand seem to say--if farangs engage in face-saving, it's ok. If Thais do it, it's not. I see face-saving on this forum all the time. Farangs on TV rarely come back and admit that they're wrong about anything. Afraid to lose face? Who knows.

Perhaps the difference between Thais and farangs is that Thais will generally refrain from intentionally causing someone else to lose face, whereas farangs have no qualms about that. But in terms of not wanting to lose one's own "face?" Same same between Thais and farangs.

wrong, we dont go and beat up the mans wife, daughter , mother and young kids where as thais do, they are too gutless to fight the person that has caused their loss of face so they then either get a heap of friends to help beat the crap out of him, get a weapon and kill him or attack his family. They are basically pathetic and lack any common sense, ie, they have no balls at all.

double wrong. The usual normal Thai also don't beat anyone. Some low-lives do. But some low-lives in Europe do bad things as well.

[h90]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

Your last line .....is not correct. People everywhere, in general, not like to confront each other on trivial issues but about serious matters people in the West are way more inclined to tell the truth, thus confront and give an uneasy feeling to the recipient, than in Thai culture. Add to this the explanation of WHY they hold a certain opinion regarding the recipient makes the difference. Confrontation is more perceived in the West as being helpfull and caring about the other. Maturity ?

Well where I come from you don't confront people direct, if you can avoid it. As nice, older, polite person you would rather say: "Yesterday your dog was really upset about something, hope he feels better now". than "your dog barks all the time, please stop that or I call the police".

Because you would prefer to give a hint and fix the problem without bad feelings.

[benalibina]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

Your last line .....is not correct. People everywhere, in general, not like to confront each other on trivial issues but about serious matters people in the West are way more inclined to tell the truth, thus confront and give an uneasy feeling to the recipient, than in Thai culture. Add to this the explanation of WHY they hold a certain opinion regarding the recipient makes the difference. Confrontation is more perceived in the West as being helpfull and caring about the other. Maturity ?

Well where I come from you don't confront people direct, if you can avoid it. As nice, older, polite person you would rather say: "Yesterday your dog was really upset about something, hope he feels better now". than "your dog barks all the time, please stop that or I call the police".

Because you would prefer to give a hint and fix the problem without bad feelings.

Yes, if a certain issue is perceived as being insignificant. No, if it is perceived as significant. Empathy !

[seancbk]

Losing face is the same as being made to look stupid, or foolish.

It is the same as being embarrassed in front of other people so they are judging you on your actions.

Conversely, you can earn face by being congratulated in front of other people.

It's all about what other people think of you. You would lose face if you arrived driving an old rusty car, if everyone else arrived in a Mercedes, but you might then gain face when they see your expensive watch and your wife has a better handbag than the other wives....

I've lived my entire life in Asia (Hong Kong and Thailand) and I think very much like an Asian. Face is very important to me.

Edited September 3, 2014 by seancbk

[lust]

Example of losing face.

[dotpoom]

"Face".......Farangs call it Pride or mores to the point....."Ego"....and we all have it to some degree. If the inhabitants of this world had no ego..., this world could surly be renamed.......... Paradice. There would be no greed, cruelty to each other, no insane craving for power and we would all be only too happy to take care of each other etc., etc., etc.,.........simple really.

I once heard a man say (I hear a lot of men say a lot of wise things)..."You can never hurt me...you can only hurt my ego".

[h90]

Not sure if you are really serious about this ....but I find your post amusing, if for nothing else from the perspective of trying to understand Thai's and Thai culture....Ain't going happen and if you ever get to the point, that "ahhhh" moment, where you "THINK" you understand ....understand this ...your being delusional.

All that aside found an interesting site which says about "face"

Face

The concept of "Face" is most important in Thai culture. Keeping one's "Face" is equivalent to keeping one's self-respect and dignity intact. Thais will go great lengths to ensure that, as much as possible, neither you nor they will lose "Face". In fact, almost anywhere you go in Asia, you will find this concept important. This means that Thais will rarely confront even when you have offended them. Therefore, confrontation must be done with great care to avoid shaming a Thai friend. It is best to ask a "farang" who has lived in Thailand for several years for advice if you feel confrontation is necessary.

http://www.ywamthai.org/office/culture

Good luck on your quest ...its one of those neverending ones!

No it is the same as everywhere, just a bit stronger and the stiles are different. A Thai boss tells his staff that they are idiots and did everything wrong and doesn't care about face....worse than in Europe.

In private you don't tell someone is wrong if you can tell it in a better way. Same as in Europe.

Your last line .....is not correct. People everywhere, in general, not like to confront each other on trivial issues but about serious matters people in the West are way more inclined to tell the truth, thus confront and give an uneasy feeling to the recipient, than in Thai culture. Add to this the explanation of WHY they hold a certain opinion regarding the recipient makes the difference. Confrontation is more perceived in the West as being helpfull and caring about the other. Maturity ?

Well where I come from you don't confront people direct, if you can avoid it. As nice, older, polite person you would rather say: "Yesterday your dog was really upset about something, hope he feels better now". than "your dog barks all the time, please stop that or I call the police".

Because you would prefer to give a hint and fix the problem without bad feelings.

Yes, if a certain issue is perceived as being insignificant. No, if it is perceived as significant. Empathy !

Also if significant you try to give the other a chance to fix the problem without accusing him first.

(Well if you are a nice cultured person....Not unheard in the west that someone shoot at the neighbour because he is annoyed with the noise........Rude idiots are everywhere. In Thailand they try to ignore problems longer, but that doesn't change the basics)

Sure there are differences but not that big.

[nidieunimaitre]

As with many primitive emotions:

Face is a bad thing in Europe, and it is worse in Thailand.

[1FinickyOne]

Just a comment: "Face" is not an Eastern concept only - I saw it all the time with family and in business in USA.. And if you find it an odd concept, there are some pretty odd concepts in the Western World too. For Thai it is not polite to speak badly or disrespect another - and calling it constructive criticism in the West, is rarely enjoyed if unrequested.

Here they call it face - there we call it embarrassing someone.

[Ronn68]

What it basically means is that you should do nothing to embarrass a Thai person- especially if you don't know them very well. That's what "face" basically means in Thailand.

[Cuppa]

How do authorities like police & prison guards manage ‘face’ when dealing with offenders?

[nidieunimaitre]

What it basically means is that you should do nothing to embarrass a Thai person- especially if you don't know them very well. That's what "face" basically means in Thailand.

Do you remember the incident at the airport?

Big bobo gets upset because he looses face when a security agent tries to check him. Bobo slaps loso against his ears. Bobo does not care about loss of face of loso.

Face is about respect (earned or not) and most of all power.

The concept of face confuses thai and farang alike.

[focus27]

To quote House, "Everybody lies."

Losing face is what happens when someone tells you the truth.

Cultivate two, then you can always lose one.

Cynical? OK, some Thais are insulting you, say in a supermarket, steeped in their delusion that you don't understand them. You do understand. What do you do?

Worse, you are with your Thai partner - she can hear them, understands the insults and knows that you do too. Who is losing face? What do you do?

The other components of 'saving face' are a deeply ingrained servility to their superiors (at least on the surface, but that is, after all, what we're talking about) and an endemic one-upmanship regarding material possessions. Buddhism is a much-needed salve kept in the last aid box.

[nealthewheel]

Face is something that we from the Western culture have a hard time to understand.

I lived for 2 years in China before coming to Thailand 27 months ago and Thai face is there but nowhere as obvious as it is in China.

I define it this way:

We start out in life with 0 respect and we have to achieve or earn respect with the deeds we do and the things we accomplish. Even if we lose some respect along the way we can pick ourselves up and dust ourselves down and get on with life. And mostly no one blinks an eyelid or raises a brow. And basically we don't care what people think.

Now face is different - they start with 100% face and do everything in their lives to keep it there! Hence the term "lose face" - I've seen the Chinese rob, lie, scam and cheat to maintain face and its a very serious thing. They buy BMWs fully loaded, the biggest houses and send their children to expensive schools to maintain the level of face that is expected of them. A good example is this: an American youth buys an Armani T-shirt in the sale and saves $100 but the Chinese student buys the same T-shirt at the same discount but tells all he paid top dollar whereas we would be happy to say we got a bargain. Face is part of the family, and each member adds to that face as does each family add face to the village. My Chinese wife was always telling me I lost her face when we would be out shopping and I would have no idea what I did and she would not explain it to me either. If Asians lose face it can be a life changing event for them and haunt them for years to come.

I know some of that sounds like western culture/society but whereas we may compete with each other to earn respect and keep up with the "Joneses" - face goes back thousands of years and is deeply ingrained in their culture. The point about someone pointing out a loss of face doesn't earn that person any new face - it just gives them a feeling of smugness that they have brought to the attention to all a loss of face and reasons for gossip. Asians worry constantly about how they are seen by others more so than us.

In the end it is another thing we have to adapt to.