Dual-pricing is scaring tourists away: Thai editorial

[farangbanok]

Are you talking about Ocean World @ Siam Paragon?

BTW, if you have a Thai DL you pay local price :-)

Agree about the Thai DL being a useful form of ID

In the National Parks in Esan a Thai DL seems to give some sort of immunity from charges.

I tend to give a "tip" after I am told "OK". It doesn't do any harm - and since I have already been given the ok, then it is not corruption. My conscience is clear.

[Tomtomtom69]

Ok, this might go a bit of topic, but I just felt I had to say it.

While the dual pricing does annoy the crap out of me it's not the end of the world. I tend to agree with KhunMat's idea of just simply not visiting these places. Sometimes it's harder than other times though since next to everyone I spend time with is Thai. In Ayutthaya park they asked for some small extra cash for each temple, I was reasonable but stood my ground and said nicely that I rather wait outside then. Some of the temples would let me in for free after that, either "because "khun puut chat maak leey", or because I was with Thais and was technically there to make merit (although my merits don't usually include giving lots of money to donate boxes unless I feel it's for a good cause, which I seldom do here..)

Nevertheless, all these scams aside. All these "Thailand is so dangerous and we are all potentially committing suicide by entering the Kingdoms border!" and all the overprices and this and that and those. Is it really that bad? I'm in Thaivisa, Not Khmer440, so in one way I expect to hear the bad, and good, things that goes on here. But how do you people view Laos, Cambodia, Burma and especially (IMO) Vietnam??

All these nations mentioned above are cash-traps for me, and I always get out with less left than I expected (This although there is hardly anything to do in some nations like Laos!). To me Vietnam is worst. Dual pricing not even worthy to speak of. Taxi scams in Thailand? Well - at Least not every second taxi has a rigged meter that will blow way above your budget in just minutes! So yes, I stick with the motorbike drivers in Vietnam, the catch? Having a bag of course and having people try to steal your stuff.

This 'stealing' part happens a lot in Phnom Penh as well, especially around the central market and the night market near Sisowath Quay. I'm sure it happens a lot in Bkk as well. But I also guess locals can kind of see who belongs in the area and who doesn't. That is who looks around like a tourist and who looks numbed off from the surrounding like an expat, I might be wrong on this one though but that's my impression, and one reason I believe why I never get into problems in Thailand, while friends tell me horror story after horror story here. To me Cambodia and Vietnam seems way more unstable...

And then Laos - if you can speak Thai you may think you'll get away with it? - yea, to some extent I think. But my Thai friends seldom leave Vientiane with a smile as well. They will overprice Thais as well as foreigners. Now I have been to Vientiane enough time to know how to use the bus traffic and pay normal fares in Kip. But the chances for a tourist to get fooled seems way higher than at a Thai border like when you arrive at the Nong Khai side. In fact, I only met 4-5 tuktuk's that would try to rip me off there standing waiting, and in those cases I did what I always do, walk on a bit and take a tuktuk that is on the road driving.

To be fair Vientiane is not all Laos have to offer and there are nice places with nice people. But I think one can truly say the same about Thailand no matter the double pricing or scams.

Cambodia - I used to live here 6-7 years ago for next to a year. Things have changed though. While Siem Reap is ok, PP is terrible and I find it way harder to make 160 dollars last a long time than 5000 baht in Thailand... I will always love Cambodia, but I just don't have the character to live there. I tend to fall in love with insanity and chaos and PP consumes me raw... PP is still wild west and although it seems to have shaped up a little since 2007 when I stayed there, it's still a place where next to everything goes...

Burma - I haven't really been here (except the border towns), but I've heard Yangon is not the cheapest place on earth.

Ok, one fact is that I dont need to rent a room every night in Thailand, that saves me loads of money. But what do you guys say, are any of the nations mentioned above more safe, more scam-free, better at no dual pricing etc? Anyone of these nations you would prefer instead?

Just wondering in regards to post like "Only in Thailand could something like this happen".....

Although I found your post quite interesting to read I think it is pretty irrelevant. I often hear people drawing comparisons from worse places to try and somehow justify or balance the wrongdoings here.

Consider this,, very soon the Asean region will come into effect. Thailand considers itself to be the "leader" of the Asean region and yet it has a terrible reputation for poor English skills (the officially chosen business language for the Asean) and it is blatantly sending a message of "we don't want foreigners here". You can see this is the clamp down on visa's and particularly General Prayuths speech barking onto the nation about how foreigners are a real problem in Thailand. (remember he is now the appointed PM and leading the country).

In addition there are many complaints about dual pricing, taxi rip off's, various scams such as jet ski's etc.. It doesn't exactly make foreigners feel welcome. The fact that I also pay much higher tax then many Thai people do and I contribute to the local economy with exports doesn't matter at all, there is certainly a feeling of I am not welcome.

So although you may be able to compare other countries you have to say is this really how a country should be viewed considering its ambitions to lead the Asean?

The visa crackdown has actually affected nationals of some neighboring countries more so than foreigners from far away countries. Case in point are the Vietnamese. A few months ago there was some controversy about Vietnamese coming in from Cambodia, mainly at the Poipet-Aranyaprathet (Rong Kleua) checkpoint. While at immigration, they were asked to show and hold up 20,000 Baht in cash (never mind that for visa exempt entries, only 10,000 Baht has been cited as being required, not 20,000) and photographed. Apparently they were made to feel as "criminals" and other forms of proof of funds such as debit and credit cards were not accepted. Then a complaint was lodged in writing to a big Vietnamese newspaper that has both Vietnamese and English editions, kind of the Vietnamese equivalent of the Bangkok Post. That newspaper is called Tuoi Tre I believe. In turn the Vietnamese government via their Ministry of Foreign Affairs got hold of the news who then lodged a complaint to the Thai embassy in Hanoi. In response, Thai immigration eased off on the "cash only" requirement, but maintained the requirement to show proof of funds in one form or another, including credit/debit cards etc.

My Vietnamese friend came through Cham Yeam (Koh Kong) to Hat Lek (Khlong Yai) starting in Ho Chi Minh earlier that day a few weeks ago and I picked him up there. Mass confusion ensued as the driver on the Cambodian side claimed there were problems with the goods we were shipping. This was not true - the goods passed through fine but what happened was he was asked by Cambodian immigration to ask Thai immigration for permission to enter the country. If they said yes, Cambodia would stamp him out. Thai immigration then asked for his onward plane ticket and my fiance's letter that stated he would be staying with us during his time in Thailand. That was accepted and he passed through no problems. In the meantime I had to enter Cambodian territory twice (I asked for permission to cross without my passport) to find him! Eventually I noticed he was standing and waiting for me more than 300m from the border checkpoint!

While most visitors, including Vietnamese should still be able to visit for legitimate purposes, clearly word is getting out that Thailand is starting to crack down on certain nationalities and regional countries, whose citizens are seen as the target of these crackdowns are clearly becoming worried about what all of this means. In fact before arriving my Vietnamese friend heard in the news that Vietnamese couldn't enter visa-free anymore, which is far from true. While I have been to Vietnam recently, I haven't read or heard any such news and don't know where he and others are hearing such stories. But what is clear is that what is happening in Thailand is being blown out of proportion, with rumours spreading and can have quite negative consequences for relations between Thailand and other neighboring countries - of course I'm not just talking about the visa crackdown here but also what GAZZPA cited, which includes jet-ski scams, rip-offs, intimidation etc. which affects tourists from neighboring countries (such as Malaysians in Krabi or Singaporeans/Indonesians/Vietnamese in Pattaya) just as much as westerners.

[Rorri]

I'm getting a strong feeling that many of those "victims" of 2 tier pricing have actually contributed to or brought the situation upon themselves.

if you believe that it shows you are "out of touch" with Thailand and prices.

Extremely unlikely, but you are of course basing your observation on??? nothing!

And you are basing yours on what?... your own assumptions!... and I might add, very poorly thought out... but then you could be one that lives under a bridge.. a TROLL. Can you please explain how you came to your own assumptions 1) they contributed to it themselves and 2) they brought it upon themselves.

[Tomtomtom69]

The bigger issue is that dual pricing now extends into the health sector, where it inevitably becomes a barrier to foreigners in Thailand seeking medical care.

But, that has always been the case, right? The Thais have nationalized care. They are subsidized. So, why would they not have a different pricing structure for foreigners? I think the medical care here is quite reasonable. I will give you a good example. A good friend of mine had a serious motorcycle accident on Samui. What else is new? He needed 11 operations on his leg, over a period of three years. They thought he was going to lose his leg, but he is walking fine now. After the first procedure at Bangkok Hospital Samui, he needed a second procedure. They quoted him 1.4 million baht! He inquired in Bangkok, at a different private hospital, and was quoted 460,000 baht for the same procedure, including after care. He befriended a surgeon, who said he works at BHS, the hospital he inquired with in Bangkok, and also a public hospital in Bangkok. He said he could do the same procedure at the public hospital. They got an estimate, and it came back at 46,000 baht. He did that, and it was a success. Great care. Great surgery, etc. In the meantime, since he has a medical background, he called an orthopedic surgeon friend of his in the US, and asked him to give him a precise estimate of costs, if he had the same procedure done in the US, without insurance. All cash, with cash discounts. After a day the Dr. got back to him. Estimate was $962,000! So, health care here is quite reasonable. I am not complaining, nor will I! I come from a country with a completely broken medical system. The US. Not the best care by a long shot, but by far the most expensive.

I have not encountered this at least to the best of my knowledge. Basically I only attend private hospitals. Speaking to Thais I know (the ones with money) they have to pay for everything, they don't get subsided care at private hospitals, which are just cash cows that offer superior treatment for a price. One Thai I know is pregnant about to have a baby. She told me that the delivery costs will exceed 60,000 Baht and she has spent thousands of Baht for her checkups already. Also she doesn't have any private insurance. The only way one can receive this superior treatment for free essentially is by having private health insurance. For visiting or short-term foreigners (including those that work here only for a short time) this is either going to be travel insurance from your country of residence or a local expat policy. The latter is often paid for by the company you work for, but much like in the case of Thais, only treatment at certain hospitals is covered. You can't just fall sick in Chiang Mai and get treated for free with your insurance paying for it if your registered hospital is Samitivej on Srinakarin road in Bangkok. Nor will you be covered outside of Thailand. However, with travel insurance you can. I believe there may be some policies that cover expats anywhere in the country or even abroad, but most likely if they are travelling for work, a locally issued travel insurance policy would be appropriate.

So whenever I have been treated in Thailand, I always submit a claim to my travel insurance provider. As I said I don't believe I have ever been charged ridiculous amounts, but in any case all costs have always been reimbursed so it's not like I'm going to be out of pocket in the end.

Thais can only get nationalized health care at government clinics and hospitals and even then the coverage limits are very basic. I think each visit costs 30 Baht but medicines, procedures etc. must still be paid for. There is no scheme here which allows the average Thai to go to a hospital or clinic and receive free medical care like is the case in Europe or Australia. Sorry but the Thai state is not that rich, yet. That's why there is a cashier at every hospital. Apart from those Thais with access to some kind of insurance, it's a user pays system. I have never heard of a Thai claiming they visited a hospital without some sort of payment. Even Thais with insurance cards often find that they have certain coverage limits.

[Tomtomtom69]

It isn't based on skin colour. If you have a Thai driving licence, work permit or tax certificate to show you pay Thai income tax, you pay the Thai price.

That is just not true.

Please go to Wat Prakaew and bring all of the documents you mentioned and tell us how it went

You do know that there are 50 - 100 Thai scammers surrounding the palace, telling everybody it is closed...then they attempt to divert them into a day long scam.

Those bastards have ruined thousands and thousands of holidays.

The tourist police run the show.

Maybe they're doing the tourists a favour by preventing them from getting scammed 500 Baht from the racist gatekeepers at the Grand Palace. Lol.

[masuk]

Ok, this might go a bit of topic, but I just felt I had to say it.

While the dual pricing does annoy the crap out of me it's not the end of the world. I tend to agree with KhunMat's idea of just simply not visiting these places. Sometimes it's harder than other times though since next to everyone I spend time with is Thai. In Ayutthaya park they asked for some small extra cash for each temple, I was reasonable but stood my ground and said nicely that I rather wait outside then. Some of the temples would let me in for free after that, either "because "khun puut chat maak leey", or because I was with Thais and was technically there to make merit (although my merits don't usually include giving lots of money to donate boxes unless I feel it's for a good cause, which I seldom do here..)

Nevertheless, all these scams aside. All these "Thailand is so dangerous and we are all potentially committing suicide by entering the Kingdoms border!" and all the overprices and this and that and those. Is it really that bad? I'm in Thaivisa, Not Khmer440, so in one way I expect to hear the bad, and good, things that goes on here. But how do you people view Laos, Cambodia, Burma and especially (IMO) Vietnam??

All these nations mentioned above are cash-traps for me, and I always get out with less left than I expected (This although there is hardly anything to do in some nations like Laos!). To me Vietnam is worst. Dual pricing not even worthy to speak of. Taxi scams in Thailand? Well - at Least not every second taxi has a rigged meter that will blow way above your budget in just minutes! So yes, I stick with the motorbike drivers in Vietnam, the catch? Having a bag of course and having people try to steal your stuff.

This 'stealing' part happens a lot in Phnom Penh as well, especially around the central market and the night market near Sisowath Quay. I'm sure it happens a lot in Bkk as well. But I also guess locals can kind of see who belongs in the area and who doesn't. That is who looks around like a tourist and who looks numbed off from the surrounding like an expat, I might be wrong on this one though but that's my impression, and one reason I believe why I never get into problems in Thailand, while friends tell me horror story after horror story here. To me Cambodia and Vietnam seems way more unstable...

And then Laos - if you can speak Thai you may think you'll get away with it? - yea, to some extent I think. But my Thai friends seldom leave Vientiane with a smile as well. They will overprice Thais as well as foreigners. Now I have been to Vientiane enough time to know how to use the bus traffic and pay normal fares in Kip. But the chances for a tourist to get fooled seems way higher than at a Thai border like when you arrive at the Nong Khai side. In fact, I only met 4-5 tuktuk's that would try to rip me off there standing waiting, and in those cases I did what I always do, walk on a bit and take a tuktuk that is on the road driving.

To be fair Vientiane is not all Laos have to offer and there are nice places with nice people. But I think one can truly say the same about Thailand no matter the double pricing or scams.

Cambodia - I used to live here 6-7 years ago for next to a year. Things have changed though. While Siem Reap is ok, PP is terrible and I find it way harder to make 160 dollars last a long time than 5000 baht in Thailand... I will always love Cambodia, but I just don't have the character to live there. I tend to fall in love with insanity and chaos and PP consumes me raw... PP is still wild west and although it seems to have shaped up a little since 2007 when I stayed there, it's still a place where next to everything goes...

Burma - I haven't really been here (except the border towns), but I've heard Yangon is not the cheapest place on earth.

Ok, one fact is that I dont need to rent a room every night in Thailand, that saves me loads of money. But what do you guys say, are any of the nations mentioned above more safe, more scam-free, better at no dual pricing etc? Anyone of these nations you would prefer instead?

Just wondering in regards to post like "Only in Thailand could something like this happen".....

CHINA: Much as I disliked the crowds,spitting, blasting air horns, the litter, at least I was admitted to many areas free of cost, having shown my passport and proving that I am over 65. A pleasant beach park was 200 rmb admittance ($5.00) but free for over 65s. Immigration lines the same.

[kingalfred]

The bigger issue is that dual pricing now extends into the health sector, where it inevitably becomes a barrier to foreigners in Thailand seeking medical care.

But, that has always been the case, right? The Thais have nationalized care. They are subsidized. So, why would they not have a different pricing structure for foreigners? I think the medical care here is quite reasonable. I will give you a good example. A good friend of mine had a serious motorcycle accident on Samui. What else is new? He needed 11 operations on his leg, over a period of three years. They thought he was going to lose his leg, but he is walking fine now. After the first procedure at Bangkok Hospital Samui, he needed a second procedure. They quoted him 1.4 million baht! He inquired in Bangkok, at a different private hospital, and was quoted 460,000 baht for the same procedure, including after care. He befriended a surgeon, who said he works at BHS, the hospital he inquired with in Bangkok, and also a public hospital in Bangkok. He said he could do the same procedure at the public hospital. They got an estimate, and it came back at 46,000 baht. He did that, and it was a success. Great care. Great surgery, etc. In the meantime, since he has a medical background, he called an orthopedic surgeon friend of his in the US, and asked him to give him a precise estimate of costs, if he had the same procedure done in the US, without insurance. All cash, with cash discounts. After a day the Dr. got back to him. Estimate was $962,000! So, health care here is quite reasonable. I am not complaining, nor will I! I come from a country with a completely broken medical system. The US. Not the best care by a long shot, but by far the most expensive.

I have not encountered this at least to the best of my knowledge. Basically I only attend private hospitals. Speaking to Thais I know (the ones with money) they have to pay for everything, they don't get subsided care at private hospitals, which are just cash cows that offer superior treatment for a price. One Thai I know is pregnant about to have a baby. She told me that the delivery costs will exceed 60,000 Baht and she has spent thousands of Baht for her checkups already. Also she doesn't have any private insurance. The only way one can receive this superior treatment for free essentially is by having private health insurance. For visiting or short-term foreigners (including those that work here only for a short time) this is either going to be travel insurance from your country of residence or a local expat policy. The latter is often paid for by the company you work for, but much like in the case of Thais, only treatment at certain hospitals is covered. You can't just fall sick in Chiang Mai and get treated for free with your insurance paying for it if your registered hospital is Samitivej on Srinakarin road in Bangkok. Nor will you be covered outside of Thailand. However, with travel insurance you can. I believe there may be some policies that cover expats anywhere in the country or even abroad, but most likely if they are travelling for work, a locally issued travel insurance policy would be appropriate.

So whenever I have been treated in Thailand, I always submit a claim to my travel insurance provider. As I said I don't believe I have ever been charged ridiculous amounts, but in any case all costs have always been reimbursed so it's not like I'm going to be out of pocket in the end.

Thais can only get nationalized health care at government clinics and hospitals and even then the coverage limits are very basic. I think each visit costs 30 Baht but medicines, procedures etc. must still be paid for. There is no scheme here which allows the average Thai to go to a hospital or clinic and receive free medical care like is the case in Europe or Australia. Sorry but the Thai state is not that rich, yet. That's why there is a cashier at every hospital. Apart from those Thais with access to some kind of insurance, it's a user pays system. I have never heard of a Thai claiming they visited a hospital without some sort of payment. Even Thais with insurance cards often find that they have certain coverage limits.

your friend is a "wealthy thai" paying 60,000 to deliver baby and pre birth check up,and she doesnt have insurance? hmmmm

[Tomtomtom69]

The bigger issue is that dual pricing now extends into the health sector, where it inevitably becomes a barrier to foreigners in Thailand seeking medical care.

But, that has always been the case, right? The Thais have nationalized care. They are subsidized. So, why would they not have a different pricing structure for foreigners? I think the medical care here is quite reasonable. I will give you a good example. A good friend of mine had a serious motorcycle accident on Samui. What else is new? He needed 11 operations on his leg, over a period of three years. They thought he was going to lose his leg, but he is walking fine now. After the first procedure at Bangkok Hospital Samui, he needed a second procedure. They quoted him 1.4 million baht! He inquired in Bangkok, at a different private hospital, and was quoted 460,000 baht for the same procedure, including after care. He befriended a surgeon, who said he works at BHS, the hospital he inquired with in Bangkok, and also a public hospital in Bangkok. He said he could do the same procedure at the public hospital. They got an estimate, and it came back at 46,000 baht. He did that, and it was a success. Great care. Great surgery, etc. In the meantime, since he has a medical background, he called an orthopedic surgeon friend of his in the US, and asked him to give him a precise estimate of costs, if he had the same procedure done in the US, without insurance. All cash, with cash discounts. After a day the Dr. got back to him. Estimate was $962,000! So, health care here is quite reasonable. I am not complaining, nor will I! I come from a country with a completely broken medical system. The US. Not the best care by a long shot, but by far the most expensive.

I have not encountered this at least to the best of my knowledge. Basically I only attend private hospitals. Speaking to Thais I know (the ones with money) they have to pay for everything, they don't get subsided care at private hospitals, which are just cash cows that offer superior treatment for a price. One Thai I know is pregnant about to have a baby. She told me that the delivery costs will exceed 60,000 Baht and she has spent thousands of Baht for her checkups already. Also she doesn't have any private insurance. The only way one can receive this superior treatment for free essentially is by having private health insurance. For visiting or short-term foreigners (including those that work here only for a short time) this is either going to be travel insurance from your country of residence or a local expat policy. The latter is often paid for by the company you work for, but much like in the case of Thais, only treatment at certain hospitals is covered. You can't just fall sick in Chiang Mai and get treated for free with your insurance paying for it if your registered hospital is Samitivej on Srinakarin road in Bangkok. Nor will you be covered outside of Thailand. However, with travel insurance you can. I believe there may be some policies that cover expats anywhere in the country or even abroad, but most likely if they are travelling for work, a locally issued travel insurance policy would be appropriate.

So whenever I have been treated in Thailand, I always submit a claim to my travel insurance provider. As I said I don't believe I have ever been charged ridiculous amounts, but in any case all costs have always been reimbursed so it's not like I'm going to be out of pocket in the end.

Thais can only get nationalized health care at government clinics and hospitals and even then the coverage limits are very basic. I think each visit costs 30 Baht but medicines, procedures etc. must still be paid for. There is no scheme here which allows the average Thai to go to a hospital or clinic and receive free medical care like is the case in Europe or Australia. Sorry but the Thai state is not that rich, yet. That's why there is a cashier at every hospital. Apart from those Thais with access to some kind of insurance, it's a user pays system. I have never heard of a Thai claiming they visited a hospital without some sort of payment. Even Thais with insurance cards often find that they have certain coverage limits.

your friend is a "wealthy thai" paying 60,000 to deliver baby and pre birth check up,and she doesnt have insurance? hmmmm

No she doesn't and she's not the only one. I am not sure about this, but I thought that much like in the States, not everyone can get insurance here, you have to get it through work. Since my friend is part of a single income family (her husband is a surgeon and makes a lot more than most dual income middle class families) but as she doesn't work (even before becoming pregnant) I'm not sure that she could even be eligible for private insurance. Now I could be way off here, but most Thais I know that are employed (including my fiance) get their insurance through their employer. Once their employment is terminated they lose that insurance. Should they take up a new job, it's up to the new employer to organize a new health insurance provider/policy. Of course it may be possible for anyone to get insurance but probably most people couldn't be bothered paying the premiums.

[Tomtomtom69]

Ok, this might go a bit of topic, but I just felt I had to say it.

While the dual pricing does annoy the crap out of me it's not the end of the world. I tend to agree with KhunMat's idea of just simply not visiting these places. Sometimes it's harder than other times though since next to everyone I spend time with is Thai. In Ayutthaya park they asked for some small extra cash for each temple, I was reasonable but stood my ground and said nicely that I rather wait outside then. Some of the temples would let me in for free after that, either "because "khun puut chat maak leey", or because I was with Thais and was technically there to make merit (although my merits don't usually include giving lots of money to donate boxes unless I feel it's for a good cause, which I seldom do here..)

Nevertheless, all these scams aside. All these "Thailand is so dangerous and we are all potentially committing suicide by entering the Kingdoms border!" and all the overprices and this and that and those. Is it really that bad? I'm in Thaivisa, Not Khmer440, so in one way I expect to hear the bad, and good, things that goes on here. But how do you people view Laos, Cambodia, Burma and especially (IMO) Vietnam??

All these nations mentioned above are cash-traps for me, and I always get out with less left than I expected (This although there is hardly anything to do in some nations like Laos!). To me Vietnam is worst. Dual pricing not even worthy to speak of. Taxi scams in Thailand? Well - at Least not every second taxi has a rigged meter that will blow way above your budget in just minutes! So yes, I stick with the motorbike drivers in Vietnam, the catch? Having a bag of course and having people try to steal your stuff.

This 'stealing' part happens a lot in Phnom Penh as well, especially around the central market and the night market near Sisowath Quay. I'm sure it happens a lot in Bkk as well. But I also guess locals can kind of see who belongs in the area and who doesn't. That is who looks around like a tourist and who looks numbed off from the surrounding like an expat, I might be wrong on this one though but that's my impression, and one reason I believe why I never get into problems in Thailand, while friends tell me horror story after horror story here. To me Cambodia and Vietnam seems way more unstable...

And then Laos - if you can speak Thai you may think you'll get away with it? - yea, to some extent I think. But my Thai friends seldom leave Vientiane with a smile as well. They will overprice Thais as well as foreigners. Now I have been to Vientiane enough time to know how to use the bus traffic and pay normal fares in Kip. But the chances for a tourist to get fooled seems way higher than at a Thai border like when you arrive at the Nong Khai side. In fact, I only met 4-5 tuktuk's that would try to rip me off there standing waiting, and in those cases I did what I always do, walk on a bit and take a tuktuk that is on the road driving.

To be fair Vientiane is not all Laos have to offer and there are nice places with nice people. But I think one can truly say the same about Thailand no matter the double pricing or scams.

Cambodia - I used to live here 6-7 years ago for next to a year. Things have changed though. While Siem Reap is ok, PP is terrible and I find it way harder to make 160 dollars last a long time than 5000 baht in Thailand... I will always love Cambodia, but I just don't have the character to live there. I tend to fall in love with insanity and chaos and PP consumes me raw... PP is still wild west and although it seems to have shaped up a little since 2007 when I stayed there, it's still a place where next to everything goes...

Burma - I haven't really been here (except the border towns), but I've heard Yangon is not the cheapest place on earth.

Ok, one fact is that I dont need to rent a room every night in Thailand, that saves me loads of money. But what do you guys say, are any of the nations mentioned above more safe, more scam-free, better at no dual pricing etc? Anyone of these nations you would prefer instead?

Just wondering in regards to post like "Only in Thailand could something like this happen".....

CHINA: Much as I disliked the crowds,spitting, blasting air horns, the litter, at least I was admitted to many areas free of cost, having shown my passport and proving that I am over 65. A pleasant beach park was 200 rmb admittance ($5.00) but free for over 65s. Immigration lines the same.

True, in China they actually respect the elderly and this includes foreigners. My mom, who at the time was just over 60 a couple of years ago went with me and my brother to the site of expo 99 in Kunming, now a village displaying architectural styles and plants of various countries. She was eligible for a senior's discount and then showed her ID to receive it. Very nice treatment and unlike in Thailand, no dual pricing.

In my experience most of the tourist sites I've been to in China are far, far more interesting, far bigger and better maintained than anything in Thailand. And they don't necessarily have lots of crowds, it just depends where you go. Obviously the Great Wall (I haven't been there yet) will be crowded, but many of the tourist sites in Yunnan aren't. And given that you aren't fleeced on the entrance fees it makes the whole experience far more worthwhile. No wonder I'd rather go to a zoo, amusement park, visit a national park etc. in China these days than in Thailand. That and the fact I've already been everywhere in Thailand I mean it's not that big of a country anyway and I've seen what I need to see over the past 10-15 years; there's not much new for me to see. I'm templed out and have seen many of the national parks worth seeing, so it's time to see new places and experience new things in other countries.

[Tomtomtom69]

Dual-pricing is scaring tourists away.

definitely.

Maybe not the first-time visitors, but on the internet and among friends itself speaks around.

- Lumpini Thai boxing: +1000 Baht

- King Palace: +500 Baht

- Wat Pho: +100 Baht

- Siam Ocean: +500 Baht

- Cable Car at Phra Nakhon: +150 Baht

- Lanta Marine National Park: +360 Baht

- Summer Palace Ayutthaya: + 70 Baht

- Museum Siam Bangkok: + 200 Baht

- National Parks: + 100 – 300 Baht

- Massage Parlours: + 500 – 1000 Baht surcharge

- restaurants with two price lists

- and everyone else who try to rip you off here.

+ scams

+ crime

+ political instability

+ travel safety

+ rip off culture

So the negative image effect will in long-term harm the tourism.

I'm pretty sure that many tourists, instead of making a second visit, opt for another destination!

I have never experienced a restaurant here with two price lists ?

Where do you find them ?

Here on the islands (Koh Samui, Koh Phangan, Koh Tao) there are many small restaurants with two menus.

One in Thai and one in English.

The prices on it are not the same!

I would never eat in a place like that , I never visit tourist traps anyway so maybe that's why I've never seen this before.

I would be very upset and complain to the owner, they would never get away with it in Bangkok.

You're exactly like me. I've never seen it either, but as I've stated before (in one of my other replies) I generally stick to predictable chain restaurants located in shopping malls or the better western/Japanese/Korean/Thai seafood independent restaurants that don't apply this nonsense, hence there's no opportunity to get fleeced. The small restaurants with dual prices serve rubbish food in places with cheap plastic stools and don't have many customers for a reason. So they become opportunistic fools and think they are being clever by raising their prices for their mostly clueless, foreign guests.

[BangkokHank]

The point is why should long term residents in Thailand pay tourist prices, when they are paying tax, same as Thai citizens?

I think you meant to say, ". . . when they are paying tax, UNLIKE Thai citizens". Ha.

[Tomtomtom69]

From my home state (Texas). Hunting license fees

Resident Hunting $25.00

Senior Resident Hunting $7.00

General Non-Resident Hunting $315.00

For those who claim there is no price discrimination in other places... It's all over, not just in Thailand. Look back over the dozens of dual pricing threads and you'll find hundreds of examples posted.

source: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/business/licenses/public/recreational/

How about "blacks pay double fee", which is essentially how Thai double pricing is done (but reversed).

Wow, a double whammy!

Impulse:

Do you think hunting fees may be local government regulated and perhaps, just perhaps; tax paying local citizens receive a discount because they do pay taxes locally?

Do you not agree, there is justification for dual pricing in situations where the lesser-price-based person accrues discount because they have provided services or assets to the owner of the entity being priced?

I'm simply saying double pricing is not unique to Thailand. It's easy to show that one type of dual pricing is different or justified. But it's still dual pricing- with some hurdle (other than skin color) that can put you on the other side of the duality. In Thailand, my WP gets me into most places at local prices and a Thai passport would get me into the rest- if I wanted to go through the trouble of getting Thai citizenship- as several of my coworkers have done.

Racism and skin color has nothing to do with it. I have never seen an instance where a light skin Thai got charged more or less than a dark skinned Thai.

But the arguments here usually come down to one type of dual pricing isn't affecting me (and it's okay and perfectly justified), and another one that does affect me is just plain wrong.

From a business perspective, dual pricing makes perfect sense. If everyone paid the Thai price, the place (pick your spot, any spot) would be jammed packed and still go broke. If everyone had to pay the foreigner price, the local masses couldn't afford it, place would be pretty sparse, and still go broke. It's all about overhead absorption and incremental business.

Best example I have is Dornan's Spur Ranch Cabins in Moose, Wyoming- at the base of the Grand Tetons. An experience not to be missed (if it's still in business- it's been 15 years). When I had Wyoming plates, I got a significant discount to stay there. The reason- Wyoming residents were repeat customers, a lot of us staying many weekends per year. We stayed there in the high seasons (summer and ski season). We stayed there in the low seasons (spring and fall). We absorbed a lot of their overhead. Tourists stayed a few days or a week, and generally only in the summer or ski season- when the place would be full anyway. They paid full price. (In the days before Hotels.com)

I'm sure someone else can tell me why Dornan's dual pricing policy is vastly different than dual pricing in Thailand. And why their dual pricing was okay, but the dual pricing in Thailand is just plain wrong. Bottom line- it was dual pricing and discriminatory. And it happens all over- not just Thailand.

My pet peeve? Show up at a hotel desk with an Exxon or Siemens business card and your corporate rate will generally be half of what I pay- even when I lived out of hotels for 200+ days a year. Dual pricing based on employment. Fair? I think not. But the world doesn't guarantee fairness.

Nah, your argument is trying to twist the facts. Dual pricing in Thailand is always done on the basis of nationality, which in turn ends up being race-based because there is a Thai definition of what a Thai should look like. Basically Asian, with black hair (unless it's been dyed) and could be either light skin (indicating Chinese ancestry) or dark-skinned. Everyone else who doesn't fit this definition is stereotyped as a foreigner, no matter what their credentials may be, how long they've lived here, etc. In many cases a Thai driver's licence, work permit or non-imm visa is accepted as proof of being entitled to the local rate, but in others it's not. The example of giving "locals" in Wyoming a discount is a poor example. Because over there anyone, whether they are black, white, yellow, brown, have US citizenship or not, as long as they can show proof of local residency in the form of a driver's licence, state ID card or another acceptable document will get the discount.

That is not how things work in Thailand. Local invariably means Thai nationality, and not local to the area. You could be a westerner who has lived in say Tak for 30 years, maybe you were even born there, you speak fluent Thai better than many Thais, you even have Thai citizenship. But as far as the Thais are concerned you're a foreigner until you prove otherwise. I just read another poster a few posts up from yours who presented a shocking story. A luk-khrueng child (half European, half-Thai) who happens to look somewhat more western (in my experience most Luk-khrueng look more Asian than western) despite being Thai has been charged the foreigner rate for entry to some national parks. Perhaps said person didn't have an ID card with them, but we all know that stereotypes and racism guide the decision making behind how a park official or museum official or other ticket officer decides who can have access to the local price and who doesn't. A Vietnamese citizen who goes to a national park in Chiang Mai can get in at the local rate if he/she doesn't open their mouth. The Thai officials, who never check anyone's ID except for westerners/Africans or others who don't look Asian would never know this person isn't Thai unless they start speaking to him/her because with their narrow-mindedness they 1) think all foreigners are westerners 2) all westerners are rich and can be exploited 3) Vietnamese and other Asians don't travel to Thailand and even if they do they stand out, hence why a park official at a Chiang Mai national park wouldn't even consider the thought that the person they are looking at is NOT Thai. Well although I can tell different Asians apart many Thais can't...strange that, but that's what I've noticed.

Also, Thais don't need to run a business on the "opportunity" to fleece foreign visitors or even the expectation that any would come in the first place. There are for example tons of tourist attractions in China that don't see a single western visitor for days on end or have only 0.001% foreign visitors. Of course there is no more dual pricing in China to begin with, but let's consider the rationale here - trying to charge more for such a tiny minority of visitors, what's the point? And before you say well that's China let me also state that quite a few tourist attractions in Thailand have mostly only Thai visitors, as they should. Why should any business owner expect most of their customers to be foreigners? That's a very strange sort of business concept if you ask me, foreigners can't be taken for granted and you can't expect them to be around. They should be focusing on local visitors and even if they expect foreigners, don't you think it would make sense NOT to discriminate in order to encourage MORE foreigners? I'm quite sure every foreigner who ends up knowing about being charged more would NOT visit any business or tourist attraction again and also tell their friends, knowing they've been discriminated against.

The ONLY rationale I can see behind dual pricing towards foreigners is to DISCOURAGE foreign visitors from going; it's certainly a very very bad business practice that only fools engage in and nobody in their right mind could think it's a good business decision. Also, locals these days have money, stop crying poor and pretending that it's the 1960s and all Thais are starving. Nearly every urban Thai owns a car (often a new one), which is more expensive than the same car back home. They live in nice houses or condos, own TVs, smartphones and many can afford regional and international travel. ALL tourist attractions in Thailand are made with middle class visitors in mind. None of them are designed for 300-Baht a day labourers, most of whom are actually foreigners and couldn't afford to go in even at the local rates. Therefore it's quite clear that dual pricing, which might make some sense in the world's poorest countries has definitely passed it's use-by-date in a middle class country like Thailand, which has so many quite well off consumers these days.

[Tomtomtom69]

I accept that if there is a large direct contribution to the cost of a service by the Government there are a case that different charges are reasonable for non residence but based on residence not race. These could be in areas such as Education where the cost is paid out of funds raised by Income Tax, VAT, Customs Duty etc all of which are paid by a resident but may not have been by a visitor. In the Casse of services such as reduced bus fares for categories of people such as students it is also reasonable to limit those to actual students in Australia. If there are discounts for buying several trips that discount should be available to everyone. In all other cases I have seen I would consider it total discrimination.

What sort of Thai government educational services do visitors use?

I can't think of any.

95% of Thais don't pay customs duty, they don't have the money for foreign travel.

80% of Thais don't pay income tax.

Everyone pays VAT, Thai, foreigner or visitor.

Why not think a bit more before posting?

Incidentally, Webster University in Bangkok charges foreign students only 5000 Baht more per semester, mainly for the additional associated costs with obtaining visas/extensions etc. which is not unreasonable. It is one example of an institution in Thailand that does not fleece foreigners but can actually prove why this small additional cost is necessary. When I first looked at their price lists I was expecting it to be like 100000 for Thais and 300000 for foreigners but actually nope its 100000 for everyone plus 5000 for foreigners extra paperwork which Thais obviously don't need.

Harrry, there is a campaign in NSW now by some international students to get access to discounted public transport fares. Although I disagree with the proposal, I disagree on the basis that 1) they don't pay taxes like citizens do and 2) in general foreigners in Australia don't have to put up with the nonsense that we have to put up with in Thailand. When Thailand and other regional countries end dual pricing we might be able to consider their request for subsidized public transport, so let's make it tit for tat. In the meantime I understand where the NSW government is coming from - why should taxpayer money be used to subsidize foreigner's travel? Aussies in Indonesia, Thailand etc. certainly don't get access to subsidized travel on public transport so why should we give it to them? The difference in Thailand is that nationality, race and stereotypical assumptions is behind dual pricing decisions but in the case of international students in Australia, once they become Australian residents they can immediately avail themselves of subsidized tickets for students. Or just buy a car or ride a bike and not worry about public transport, lol.

[spidermike007]

The bigger issue is that dual pricing now extends into the health sector, where it inevitably becomes a barrier to foreigners in Thailand seeking medical care.

But, that has always been the case, right? The Thais have nationalized care. They are subsidized. So, why would they not have a different pricing structure for foreigners? I think the medical care here is quite reasonable. I will give you a good example. A good friend of mine had a serious motorcycle accident on Samui. What else is new? He needed 11 operations on his leg, over a period of three years. They thought he was going to lose his leg, but he is walking fine now. After the first procedure at Bangkok Hospital Samui, he needed a second procedure. They quoted him 1.4 million baht! He inquired in Bangkok, at a different private hospital, and was quoted 460,000 baht for the same procedure, including after care. He befriended a surgeon, who said he works at BHS, the hospital he inquired with in Bangkok, and also a public hospital in Bangkok. He said he could do the same procedure at the public hospital. They got an estimate, and it came back at 46,000 baht. He did that, and it was a success. Great care. Great surgery, etc. In the meantime, since he has a medical background, he called an orthopedic surgeon friend of his in the US, and asked him to give him a precise estimate of costs, if he had the same procedure done in the US, without insurance. All cash, with cash discounts. After a day the Dr. got back to him. Estimate was $962,000! So, health care here is quite reasonable. I am not complaining, nor will I! I come from a country with a completely broken medical system. The US. Not the best care by a long shot, but by far the most expensive.

I have not encountered this at least to the best of my knowledge. Basically I only attend private hospitals. Speaking to Thais I know (the ones with money) they have to pay for everything, they don't get subsided care at private hospitals, which are just cash cows that offer superior treatment for a price. One Thai I know is pregnant about to have a baby. She told me that the delivery costs will exceed 60,000 Baht and she has spent thousands of Baht for her checkups already. Also she doesn't have any private insurance. The only way one can receive this superior treatment for free essentially is by having private health insurance. For visiting or short-term foreigners (including those that work here only for a short time) this is either going to be travel insurance from your country of residence or a local expat policy. The latter is often paid for by the company you work for, but much like in the case of Thais, only treatment at certain hospitals is covered. You can't just fall sick in Chiang Mai and get treated for free with your insurance paying for it if your registered hospital is Samitivej on Srinakarin road in Bangkok. Nor will you be covered outside of Thailand. However, with travel insurance you can. I believe there may be some policies that cover expats anywhere in the country or even abroad, but most likely if they are travelling for work, a locally issued travel insurance policy would be appropriate.

So whenever I have been treated in Thailand, I always submit a claim to my travel insurance provider. As I said I don't believe I have ever been charged ridiculous amounts, but in any case all costs have always been reimbursed so it's not like I'm going to be out of pocket in the end.

Thais can only get nationalized health care at government clinics and hospitals and even then the coverage limits are very basic. I think each visit costs 30 Baht but medicines, procedures etc. must still be paid for. There is no scheme here which allows the average Thai to go to a hospital or clinic and receive free medical care like is the case in Europe or Australia. Sorry but the Thai state is not that rich, yet. That's why there is a cashier at every hospital. Apart from those Thais with access to some kind of insurance, it's a user pays system. I have never heard of a Thai claiming they visited a hospital without some sort of payment. Even Thais with insurance cards often find that they have certain coverage limits.

Not what I meant. I meant that Thais have access to nearly free medical at the public hospitals. Way more than what we have in the US, if you are uninsured! My girlfriend ended up in a hospital for 3 days, after an accident. She paid a total of 30 baht! Little did I know she was in a public ward, with 40 other people, or I would have sprung for the private room at 1,200 baht per day!

[Ling Kae]

To all the people that claim "this is not going on" here is sign I snapped while touring around in the northern parts of Thailand. It clearly shows the dual price on a sign just before entering a National Park. Obviously this is a Government sign basically endorsing the dual pricing system. Why should we pay double? Why should we be discriminatated against? After seeing that sign I did a U turn and drove off, I refuse to be charged double for anything in Thailand.

[uptheos]

I don't think dual pricing is scaring tourist's away, heck I doubt if a good percentage of them are even aware of it before they come.

Most people pick a place, work and save hard for flight, accommodation and X amount of money to spend and go with the flow once they arrive somewhere. If they want to go somewhere or see something, it's either affordable within their budget or not, they don't sit around analyzing it all day long, they're too busy finding things to enjoy.

If it's a particular thing like the Taj Mahal, Pyramids or Angkor Wat, I'm sure they do a bit of leg work before they go to find out the 'average' cost and build it in to their expenses, wherever they are going.

[JemJem]

IDEALLY, there should be the same rate for all site-entrance fees, regardless of nationality. But if there really has got to be more charge for non-Thais, the difference shouldn't be like double or triple. For example, 80 baht for Thais while 100 or 120 baht for non-Thais is okay, I guess.

[rebeli]

Thais are poor. Falang rich.When Thais go to Falangland, Thais always get charge expensive Falang price.So when Falang in Thailand, they should also pay expensive Falang price.This is the universal law of same same no change.If falang want to pay thai price in thailand, falang should also charge cheaper thai price to thai people while in falangland.

Did you smoke pot while writing this?

[uptheos]

I wish they'd charge tourists a bit more at Tower of London, Buck Palace, St Pauls etc and let Brits in for free.

[MobileContent]

So does it mean that the Temple of the Emerald Buddha will offer the same prices as to Thais?

[harrry]

So does it mean that the Temple of the Emerald Buddha will offer the same prices as to Thais?

Sometimes it makes you wonder if a Thai will end up at the Perly gates and say you have to have twice the good deeds of other nationalities....Karma works in mysterious ways. Edited September 5, 2014 by harrry

[brewsterbudgen]

Seems ridiculous to get so worked up about locals receiving a discount to see their national heritage.

[Christie Paul]

Dual pricing doesn't scare tourists away.

But its not a particularly intelligent policy, as it broadcasts intent. Thieving should be subtle.

This kind of mentality acts as a persistent glass ceiling, which discourages a lot of people to invest much time or money in the place.

For some of us this is probably a good thing and worth paying the extra, because reducing the likelihood of an upmarket international crowd of visitors and semi permanent residents would cause local prices to skyrocket.

[ginjag]

Seems ridiculous to get so worked up about locals receiving a discount to see their national heritage.

Locals do not get a discount, the pay the going rate. Foreigners are skinned for being foreign.

[fotog]

I am an expat and I am doing my part by telling anyone who may contact me in connection with visiting here, not to come.

I think a better title for the article would be:

"Dual-pricing is keeping tourists away: Thai editorial" because dual pricing really should not scare anyone as much as it just plain pisses them off!

It's not only wats and attractions, it's at the BTS who gives a senior discount only if you are Thai. I could name others too but you get the idea.

I don't care how many folks try to justify dual pricing; the fact is, it is wrong and it is racist!

[Ling Kae]

I am an expat and I am doing my part by telling anyone who may contact me in connection with visiting here, not to come.

I think a better title for the article would be:

"Dual-pricing is keeping tourists away: Thai editorial" because dual pricing really should not scare anyone as much as it just plain pisses them off!

It's not only wats and attractions, it's at the BTS who gives a senior discount only if you are Thai. I could name others too but you get the idea.

I don't care how many folks try to justify dual pricing; the fact is, it is wrong and it is racist!

I agree and where will it stop? Now it has been reported that some restaurants are offering 2 menus, one in Thai (cheap) and one in English (price up). The moment they start doing this with a basic neccessity such as food it becomes totally unjust. Everybody should be able to buy food at the same price. It is indeed very wrong and discriminatory. I wonder how a Thai would feel having to pay double for a meal in farangland, it wouldn't take them long to start complaing.

[wilcopops]

I am an expat and I am doing my part by telling anyone who may contact me in connection with visiting here, not to come.

I think a better title for the article would be:

"Dual-pricing is keeping tourists away: Thai editorial" because dual pricing really should not scare anyone as much as it just plain pisses them off!

It's not only wats and attractions, it's at the BTS who gives a senior discount only if you are Thai. I could name others too but you get the idea.

I don't care how many folks try to justify dual pricing; the fact is, it is wrong and it is racist!

It's wrong but only a fool thinks it's racist.

[samsensam]

If your not Thai you must pay more

its not the act of doing this that's the problem, its the mindset that says its correct to do so.

I can imagine many Thais honestly saying "Why not ?"

You've hit it on the head, how many Thais know or care ?

I doubt there would be any ' that's not right ' views.

I would guess most Thai's would see it as their right to pay less, being Thai in Thailand and all that.

[Kasset Tak]

I have been following this post for a long time as I was one of the first to reply... I understand that my solutions might be hard for some people but as I stated in my first post in this tread, I have not paid the farang price sins I visited Wat Prakaew. And I want to clarify what do and how I do it.

1. I ask for the price and if they try to overcharge I just WALK AWAY and do my business somewhere else. One time I was out shopping for a refrigerator, in a store I found one that had a price tag saying 9900 in Thai numbers but when I asked the seller for the price he told me 15000Baht. I just walked away and he came running after me, trying to lower the price but I just told him that as he was so expensive that I go somewhere else to buy the fridge and the rest of things I would need in the future.

2. When I go to a national park I just hand the guard the money stated in Thai ๒๐ บาท (20 Baht). Only once have the forest ranger started complainig (in Thai) so I said to him in Thai "What! The sign say that it's a 20 Baht entrance fee!", he gave me the ticket for 20 Baht. And how could they start to argue whit a tourist or expat as most of the park rangers can't speak English!

3. I will always haggle the price at the market and ask for a discount in small stores (ex. buy 3 get 1) if I think that the price is to high. When visiting Bangkok I usually stay close to Kao Sarn road. I buy second hand books there, usually I pay 50-80 Baht per book even though they are marked 1-200 as I buy 10-20 books at a time.

Maybe it's easier for me as I'm single and I have tried to learn Thai (but still with a bad accent) as I don't have to adjust and think about any wife and kids and I can speak for myself!

[khunjamesjohnson]

Seems ridiculous to get so worked up about locals receiving a discount to see their national heritage.

National heritage?

That charge triple for the toilet.