Asian suspects raped English tourist

[lucaswallachia]

One thing to note is the guy that David shakes hands with on the CCTV is wearing black pants, and there are black pants with a belt among the clothing strewn on the beach near his body.

what CCTV is this?.... link?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808

[Smurkster]

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I have friends coming to visit me here next year...I have already decided that for there two week trip the only place in Thailand we are going to visit is Suvarnabhumi when I pick them up, from there it will be to Laos, Vietnam and Burma.....much more interesting anyway

Lol, intentional homicide rate is 3x higher in burma compared to Thailand.

my decision has nothing to do with safety or murder rates, just would rather show them some more unspoiled, serene places in Southeast Asia that you cannot find in Thailand

[inwardglee]

"Mongoloid" is at the top of asian blood line. It is the oldest & sets the standard. You can from there, truely find out which "asian" you are looking for. Thai,Chinese, ect.

Sir, Thai is only an abstract term for the inhabitants of Thailand. There are multiple ethnicities that have mixed here, since ancient times, from Indian to Chinese, and from Mon to Khmer, and much more …

And though there is often an average look in a region, and in many provinces of the country, there is also much deviation from it.

So I disbelieve that DNA can prove that the perpetrators were "mongoloid", as said …

[lemonjelly]

One thing to note is the guy that David shakes hands with on the CCTV is wearing black pants, and there are black pants with a belt among the clothing strewn on the beach near his body.

what CCTV is this?.... link?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-final-cctv-4291808

thanks Lucas

[daveAustin]

Why the (usual TV) sarcasm gentlemen?...There was hard evidence that this crime was possibly committed by their friends from the UK. OK resume drinking.

Ok, you're new, right?

For you and the cheap seats: Because it's typical Thai police tactics to save face. The idea is to focus on everything but, for a, things to die down, and b, for the real killer(s) to not be found... just like the girl in Chiang Mai. Just make things look busy but actually accomplish very little. And, sorry, no, there was no 'hard' evidence that it was their friends, just circumstantial claptrap. They'd be better off looking at the resort owners/staff/bar owners near where it happened and where they were staying.

You can go back to sleep now.

Edited September 20, 2014 by daveAustin

[lucaswallachia]

Actually on further looking at the CCTV it looks like the 3 guys wearing the bright yellow tops walking behind Hannah are looking at her.

[Torrens54]

Out of consideration for the relatives, I would have expected any responsible and authentic News outlet to avoid the graphic detail as to where the DNA was taken from.

I have never in a lifetime in journalism, seen such an irresponsible and badly written report.

Not at all impressed with Thai Visa running the report as it appears above. TV has let itself and its subscribers down. I would have expected much higher standards from your people George.

[les Dennis]

I hope that this incident is told screaming from the top of the highest mountain...There is an element of aggression amongst a large amount of the population

people who wear rose colored glasses about Thailand could wake up and realize this isn't the tropical "Kindness peoples" paradise that they so love to think it is....

plus it is also in the top 10 countries for sexual assault like this throughout the world....god there are so many more places I would vacation to first before coming here....

I can't imagine how the family feels right now...lots of emotion, the least of which is probably anger and frustration at the way the authorities are dealing with this situation

Nobody will harm you in thailand as long as you follow the rules. The killed persons obviously didn't do that and now it's thailands fault?

The general Prayuth does his best to reform the country , give him a chance. And don't come here if you don't like the way things go.

Go to Indonesia or Malaysia, it's the same there though. So better go to Spain and have sex as much as you like in public. Or go to hedonism resort in Jamaica if you have guts.

I see loads of sexpats coming here to abuse girls 40 years younger then themselves, oh it's so bad here. They way they look they would have to pay a fortune to get laid in the UK.

Please remind me of the "rules". Is one of them dont go on the beach with your friend ?

[Docno]

I agree that all of this in the forum now looks like an ugly discussion. Yet it is also understandable that the participants suffer with the victims and each one seeks an explanation.

Numerous bashing here of insiders towards local authorities hints at some frustration. It has not always been like that. Times change …

I say again: DNA testing can not prove someone is Caucasian or East Asian … There is only 0.01 percent of genes that account for some racial features, so races are more a social concept than a genetical one …

"I say again: DNA testing can not prove someone is Caucasian or East Asian … There is only 0.01 percent of genes that account for some racial features, so races are more a social concept than a genetical one … "

And you would be wrong again. I'm not sure where you get your figures from, but genetic testing can definitely be used to identify ancestry. I would recommend you read 'A Troublesome Inheritance', which explains in detail how race and ethnicity can be determined quite accurately (though probabilistically) through the testing of specific DNA markers.

I had my own DNA tested for ancestry, and the tests (including those at GEDmatch.com) correctly identified me as having a large proportion of Hungarian ancestry (my maternal grandparents were both from Hungary). How did it do that if these tests are so worthless? My Isaan gf was also correctly identified as being SE Asian, but having 12% Chinese and about 2% South Asian ancestry as well. The fact that these tests can (correctly) identify heritage--down to sub-populations in some cases--shows beyond a doubt that race and ethnicity are not social construct. We're not talking about single genes here (as you suggest), but allele combinations across genes and their relative frequencies in different populations. There are certain combinations of alleles that can reliably distinguish Swedes from Italians, for instance, even though populations naturally blend from northern to southern Europe.

[fish fingers]

sorry if I've come in late on this.. so two people had sex with the girl, raped I guess. And one of these suspects also shared a cigarette with her .. now the mind boggles what happened that night.

[Bluespunk]

They could now trace the person who had sex with her. But does that make him the killer?

Quite probably yes, if you mean the rapist scumbag piece of faeces who assaulted Hannah.

Having sex with someone is not the same as raping someone as far as I am concerned.

[partington]

Lead story on Sky news this eve. They report the Police Commissioner announcing the DNA samples were sent to Singapore and the new results come from a specialist DNA lab in Singapore. Correction. Just watched Sky News lead Bulletin again. Police Commissioner announced samples had now been sent to specialist DNA lab in Singapore to determine further details like height, eye and hair colour. They must be good in Singapore. Sky showing clear CCTV footage of poor Hannah and friends on the night. They are modestly dressed, smart beach bar area casual. Certainly not parading in bikinis or acting provocatively. So terribly sad.

Police will request help from the United States' Federation Bureau of Investigation to test semen found in the body of a female British backpacker brutally murdered on the resort island of Koh Tao this week.

DNA testing technology in Thailand could only identify whether human secretions came from a male or female, said deputy police chief General Somyot Pumpunmuang, while the FBI had "sophisticated technology".

"We will ask the FBI to help identify the DNA in the semen we found - whether it belonged to an Asian or European," he said yesterday.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761855-police-seek-help-from-fbi-on-dna/#entry8410547

Today:

Royal Thai Police commissioner revealed Saturday that latest DNA examination has now confirmed Asian suspects responsible for the rape and murder of the English tourist in Koh Tao.

Pol Gen Somyot Phunphanmuang disclosed the latest test of DNA samples collected from semen found inside the vagina and annal of Ms Hannah Witheridge, 23, showed they belonged to Mongoloid people or Asians.

OK, now clearly either the reporters or the Thai police are simply making things up off the top of their heads.

There are simply NO DNA tests that can tell you eye colour, or hair colour, or height. This is just fiction.

I also wonder why, if they have definitively identified the DNA sample as "East Asian" (which I also do not think is possible to guarantee with current tests) they are expending efforts to determine hair and eye colour? Does this vary significantly in South East Asians? If they really believe they have proved the DNA is from a South East Asian the answer must be already known (hair: "black", and eyes: "dark brown to black")?

This seems to reflect police or reporter confusion about what has been done and what it is possible to do, or less charitably, the invention of non-existent leads.

Or perhaps the police have sent the DNA to one of those commercial companies that claim to reveal your ethnic ancestry, but which professors of genetics in the UK have referred to as "the equivalent of genetic astrology"?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2013/feb/25/viking-ancestors-astrology

Edited September 20, 2014 by partington

[JohnTrove]

It will help if at least TV posters will NOT quote the comments with too much details again and again!

So then you go and do that yourself *face palm*

[Bluespunk]

I hope that this incident is told screaming from the top of the highest mountain...There is an element of aggression amongst a large amount of the population

people who wear rose colored glasses about Thailand could wake up and realize this isn't the tropical "Kindness peoples" paradise that they so love to think it is....

plus it is also in the top 10 countries for sexual assault like this throughout the world....god there are so many more places I would vacation to first before coming here....

I can't imagine how the family feels right now...lots of emotion, the least of which is probably anger and frustration at the way the authorities are dealing with this situation

Nobody will harm you in thailand as long as you follow the rules. The killed persons obviously didn't do that and now it's thailands fault?

The general Prayuth does his best to reform the country , give him a chance. And don't come here if you don't like the way things go.

Go to Indonesia or Malaysia, it's the same there though. So better go to Spain and have sex as much as you like in public. Or go to hedonism resort in Jamaica if you have guts.

I see loads of sexpats coming here to abuse girls 40 years younger then themselves, oh it's so bad here. They way they look they would have to pay a fortune to get laid in the UK.

"Nobody will harm you in thailand as long as you follow the rules. The killed persons obviously didn't do that and now it's thailands fault?"

Are you blaming the victims of this horrific crime for what happened to them. Sickening thing to say.

As for following the rules and not being harmed. BS. I live here and am very happy here, but I am not so naive as to say that.

You can be assaulted and hurt here simply because someone thinks you have money or thinks you won't fight back or because you won't pay up when scammers try to rip you off for example.

Or are these against your list of rules to follow?

Of course the majority of Thais are decent people and would never do the things I list. But some will and do.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Bluespunk

[JulianLS]

EDIT: OK just read post #43 form Heijoshin confirming this - probably knows more about it than most here, SHould have read the rest of thread before posting! I'm guessing New Zealand forensic expertise must be at least equal to Thailand's, so if they can't do it, how can the Thais?

Well you are sticking your head in the sand if you believe one post alone. Alas that poster seems to know nothing about DNA analysls.....

Why do you think he knows more about it than most here? I would have said the opposite. Interested to hear your logic.....

How about you try reading some of the other posts....no offence

Edited September 20, 2014 by JulianLS

[jaywalker]

I guess haplo group O was found in the Y DNA. They should be able to narrow that down. But so far it means perpetrator is most likely from the area spanning from southern China and Philippines to Southern Thailand and Eastern Burma.

...........and Alaska/Northern Canada.

[Triplebank999]

Per the story at 0600 this morning the police didn't have the technology to properly conduct the DNA testing and were seeking the help of the FBI and now all of a sudden they ard DNA experts and have the case solved. Must have found a copy of DNA testing for Dummies

"Must have found a copy of DNA testing for Dummies"

After the ThaiVisa forensic experts had finished misunderstanding it's contents.

[JulianLS]

Ok. Just to make it clear as I am fed up with the discussions.

With DNA testing, it is possible to get a very high definition of ethnic background from male DNA (y chromosome haptogroup) and from female DNA (mitochondrial DNA haptogroup).

It doesn't mean nationality. One could be chinese living in the UK, or Japanese living in Argentina, or Indian living in Singpaore, or whatever.

But ethnic background. It can be done. Full stop.

If anyone really wants to know the theory behind it (which is based on a number of genetic mutations), PM me and i will explain. But trust me. If you need to ask the question then you wont want to hear the answer!

As I have posted before, they should know a lot more information than just 'Asian".... the groups are much more specific than that (but with varying margins of uncertainty).

[Triplebank999]

I read the same story, someone ran to Big C to get a new testing kit. What the heck are they doing and my GOD !!!! did they have to make public that they found semen in her anal cavity. The poor family !!

For someone who is apparently so concerned about the family's feelings it seems very strange that you should repeat the information that you are complaining about.

[partington]

EDIT: OK just read post #43 form Heijoshin confirming this - probably knows more about it than most here, SHould have read the rest of thread before posting! I'm guessing New Zealand forensic expertise must be at least equal to Thailand's, so if they can't do it, how can the Thais?

Well you are sticking your head in the sand if you believe one post alone. Alas that poster seems to know nothing about DNA analysls.....

Why do you think he knows more about it than most here? I would have said the opposite. Interested to hear your logic.....

How about you try reading some of the other posts....no offence

I told you: I looked in three different text books of forensic DNA analysis, published in 2005, 2007 and 2013, and found no reference to definitive tests of ethnicity, merely that research was in progress but not reliable enough yet to be trusted.

The New Zealand forensic services site from 2012 and a paper in Nature from 2005 that I also gave links to in previous posts said the same thing. I have a science background, and most posters on here clearly do not, so I trust my own researches more than the comments of most people here.

HeijoshinCool stated previously that he worked in law enforcement: admittedly anyone can make unsubstantiated claims to any expertise on a forum, but he also gave the only accurate account of the timelines and procedures necessary to carry out DNA profiling that I have read on here (I know it was accurate because I have performed most of the procedures he mentioned, not in a forensic context but in molecular biology labs).

I therefore trust his contributions more than those who are obviously guessing, or who have no idea what DNA is and what genetic markers are.

EDIT: But I am sure HeijoshinCool is not, and I certainly am not, expert in the current availability and accuracy of ethnic testing, and a few hours looking at textbooks and research papers is no substitute for real knowledge of the specific area. That's why I hoped someone with real expertise would comment.

Edited September 20, 2014 by partington

[maynard420]

I honestly think they should swab every tourist entering the Kingdom, at least it will be easy in the future.

yes it will be expensive, but will help in the long run.

I have lived in the kingdom for 14 years and this is very very sad, my thoughts and prayers goes out to the families of these 2 young souls.

[Triplebank999]

" Pol Gen Somyot Phunphanmuang disclosed the latest test of DNA samples collected from semen found inside the vagina and annal of Ms Hannah Witheridge, 23, showed they belonged to Mongoloid people or Asians."

Good god, do they really have to be that graphic as to describe where the semen found on the poor lass?

wouldn't be enough to just say " semen found on her body" ? do they have to demean the person like that?

You're another bright spark lambasting the authorities for releasing what you consider unnecessary information that "demeans" the victim but you're re-posting it. Why, just in case anyone missed it?

[Bluespunk]

I honestly think they should swab every tourist entering the Kingdom, at least it will be easy in the future.

yes it will be expensive, but will help in the long run.

I have lived in the kingdom for 14 years and this is very very sad, my thoughts and prayers goes out to the families of these 2 young souls.

Why tourists? Most crime here is not committed by them.

[Pete Beale]

I thought the correct term for people from Mongolia where mongol people not Mongoloid as those are people with downs syndrome.

Am I wrong?

You are wrong,

[Cheops]

It will help if at least TV posters will NOT quote the comments with too much details again and again!

So then you go and do that yourself *face palm*

If you carefully read my post you will notice that I didn't quote too much details, but looking at the time of your reply you probably already consumed too much alcoholic beverages to be able to read and write a reply without insults!

[Triplebank999]

Pol Gen Somyot Phunphanmuang disclosed the latest test of DNA samples collected from...Ms Hannah Witheridge, 23, showed they belonged to Mongoloid people or Asians.

I find it hard to believe that this statement was reported. Who is in charge of this farce?

I find it hard to believe that you reposted the very statement you're complaining about. Not sure who's in charge of "this farce" but I do know who is contributing to it.

[paddyjenkins]

EDIT: OK just read post #43 form Heijoshin confirming this - probably knows more about it than most here, SHould have read the rest of thread before posting! I'm guessing New Zealand forensic expertise must be at least equal to Thailand's, so if they can't do it, how can the Thais?

Well you are sticking your head in the sand if you believe one post alone. Alas that poster seems to know nothing about DNA analysls.....

Why do you think he knows more about it than most here? I would have said the opposite. Interested to hear your logic.....

How about you try reading some of the other posts....no offence

I told you: I looked in three different text books of forensic DNA analysis, published in 2005, 2007 and 2013, and found no reference to definitive tests of ethnicity, merely that research was in progress but not reliable enough yet to be trusted.

The New Zealand forensic services site from 2012 and a paper in Nature from 2005 that I also gave links to in previous posts said the same thing. I have a science background, and most posters on here clearly do not, so I trust my own researches more than the comments of most people here.

HeijoshinCool stated previously that he worked in law enforcement: admittedly anyone can make unsubstantiated claims to any expertise on a forum, but he also gave the only accurate account of the timelines and procedures necessary to carry out DNA profiling that I have read on here (I know it was accurate because I have performed most of the procedures he mentioned, not in a forensic context but in molecular biology labs).

I therefore trust his contributions more than those who are obviously guessing, or who have no idea what DNA is and what genetic markers are.

EDIT: But I am sure HeijoshinCool is not, and I certainly am not, expert in the current availability and accuracy of ethnic testing, and a few hours looking at textbooks and research papers is no substitute for real knowledge of the specific area. That's why I hoped someone with real expertise would comment.

Seems from what I read that the most recent DNA analysis can determine, with a sufficiently high degree of likelihood, ethnic type, sex, and also things like eye colour, hair colour and even height potential.

And as many of these traits are inherited as opposed to environmental, meaning genetic, I don't see why that information would not be coded into DNA, which is after all the programming unit that determines what we become.

Perhaps some of the people on this forum who state otherwise are basing their opinion on outdated methods. Maybe these people are retired, and when they were working in their younger days maybe DNA testing was more limited. The information that can be extracted in 2014 in the most modern labs is probably far make advanced than even just a decade ago.

[Triplebank999]

'DNA samples collected from semen found inside the...'

a bit more info publicized that that the family could well of done without i imagine ... a simple she was probably raped by multiple males would of done..

...but re-post it anyway, eh?

[Docno]

Ok. Just to make it clear as I am fed up with the discussions.

With DNA testing, it is possible to get a very high definition of ethnic background from male DNA (y chromosome haptogroup) and from female DNA (mitochondrial DNA haptogroup).

It doesn't mean nationality. One could be chinese living in the UK, or Japanese living in Argentina, or Indian living in Singpaore, or whatever.

But ethnic background. It can be done. Full stop.

If anyone really wants to know the theory behind it (which is based on a number of genetic mutations), PM me and i will explain. But trust me. If you need to ask the question then you wont want to hear the answer!

As I have posted before, they should know a lot more information than just 'Asian".... the groups are much more specific than that (but with varying margins of uncertainty).

Actually, haplogroup testing is not a good way of testing a person's current ethnicity. At best, it can tell you about the ethnicity of an ancient ancestor down the male line. One could have a single Asian male ancestor and the rest European and still have an Asian-specific haplogroup (despite a fully European appearance). To quote one website: "No, your haplogroup will not tell you if you are Welsh or Irish. It will not tell you your ethnicity. Although there are associations between ethnic groups and haplogroups, you must remember that haplogroups represent deep ancestry, tracing events from tens of thousands of years ago. It does not tell you what your ancestors have been up to over the last few hundred years". My own haplogroup originates in western Ireland but my family is not aware of any Irish ancestors (though there clearly was at least one, but it could have been a very long time ago).

[Triplebank999]

This is a great development and at the same time, very sad for the affected families to have to hear the details publically. Horrible.

Yes...........Absolutely no need to mention...publicly.

So why are you doing it?

Edited September 20, 2014 by Triplebank999