Ensure 'fair probe' for suspects, says Thein Sein

[Hisseho]

Thai law question: does anyone know when a signed confession is recanted (a normal occurrence) is the original confession still regarded as evidence?

Better to avoid complicating the matter with related topics.

The only irrefutable evidence is the correspondence of the DNA found in the body of the victim and that of two Burmese.

Everything else is just chatter futile

[simple1]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

It does not require 100k people to request to have a matter raised in Parliament. The procedures are laid out in the URL below. As a poster has already mentioned HMG does not have jurisdiction to independently investigate crimes against a UK citizen in a foreign country. I believe UK can request to provide assistance or a review of an investigation.

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/have-your-say/petitioning/

EDIT: Does the petition organiser have the permission of the victims families for this activity?

Edited October 11, 2014 by simple1

[chrispang]

Quite right.

Let the English police deal with it and it won't take long.

[Oziex1]

"I believe the UK Government has a duty of care for British subjects and should revise Foreign Office travel guidance in light of the frequency British subjects have been victims of murder, "suicides", rape and other violent crime in Thailand over the past five years."

I think this has been done for what it's worth,

Australian travel advisory suggests you think twice about going to Bali but every year hundreds of thousands of Aussies go there, a cheap holiday has erased the memory of October 2002.

[RichardThailand]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

That petition always shows up with the form in Thai on my browser. Any ideas?

[brucec64]

Thai law question: does anyone know when a signed confession is recanted (a normal occurrence) is the original confession still regarded as evidence?

Better to avoid complicating the matter with related topics.

The only irrefutable evidence is the correspondence of the DNA found in the body of the victim and that of two Burmese.

Everything else is just chatter futile

DNA evidence is only irrefutable if the chain of custody has not been broken. Considering the criminal sloppiness in police procedure so far, can the chain of custody be valid at this point? It was reported that the two that are charged had their DNA tested during the first round of testing. Is the DNA match from the second sample actually a match to the DNA in the body, or to the DNA taken from the first round of testing?

Considering all the anomolies in the investigation so far, I think that this is a valid question.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Boycot Koh the islands, they are not safe, the real murderers are still out there

Koh (pronounced 'got') means island in Thai.

[Baerboxer]

Thein Sein obviously telling Prayuth that they are being watched.

What Prayuth and his police chiefs have also forgotten is that there 'human rights' behaviour is also being scrutinised by the US with regards to mistreatment of migrants and their human rights, and now add Amnesty International to that list.

If they decide to carry on with this charade, then I think they will not escape punishment this time. They got off lucky a few months ago when they were downgraded to the lowest tier for human rights abuses yet managed to escape tangible sanctions. They were lucky to get away with a slap on the wrist.

I hope they get a hard kick up the arse next time...... The world is watching.... continue to be stupid, and you may well see CIVILISED countries marking Thailand down as an unsafe destination.

That would wipe that smarmy look off your face.

I believe the UK Government has a duty of care for British subjects and should revise Foreign Office travel guidance in light of the frequency British subjects have been victims of murder, "suicides", rape and other violent crime in Thailand over the past five years.

That would be fine - providing they put the same comment on other destinations, such as Spain where British tourists have been subjected to violent attacks too.

[BoristheBlade]

Outstanding post, a picture paints a 1000 words!!!

Smug, arrogant.................................................... fill in the rest

love the smug contented grin on his face. Strutting around like a peacock thinking to himself who care about or what these stupid Burmese think. if we want to stich someone up on murder charges we will. He is so proud of the job his police have done and rewarded them for their corruption.

[gemguy]

Hmmmm...how twisted.

The ruling military generals are concerned about unfair and unjust treatment of their nationals across the border in Thailand.

As if the poverty stricken Burmese citizens come to Thailand on a holiday because their life in Burma is so well off they can afford to come to Thailand with plenty of money.

The same Burmese leaders who have one of the worst track records in the world for unjust and often savage treatment of their own people while the nation has been ruthlessly suppressed by them for the last 70 years.

Had the same suspects been arrested in Burma you would not even hear about it.

They would be arrested, tortured and killed while everyone is told that the case is over: "We apprehended the culprits and they are in prison now...don't ask again...move along now, nothing to see here"

But they do have to put up a façade of concern to garner international rapport.

[Equalizer]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

You may want to add. The petition page where you sign is defaulted in Thai language. So if you do want to do this scroll down to the very bottom of the page and there is a language box drop down menu. Here you can change it to English.

Edited October 11, 2014 by metisdead
Bold font removed.

[tromboneman]

love the smug contented grin on his face. Strutting around like a peacock thinking to himself who care about or what these stupid Burmese think. if we want to stich someone up on murder charges we will. He is so proud of the job his police have done and rewarded them for their corruption.

You're giving hime too much credit. If anything he's thinkg "What kind of som tam today?"

[BuddhistVirus]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

That petition always shows up with the form in Thai on my browser. Any ideas?

Scroll down to the foot of the page. You'll find option to change language.

[Dogmatix]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

It does not require 100k people to request to have a matter raised in Parliament. The procedures are laid out in the URL below. As a poster has already mentioned HMG does not have jurisdiction to independently investigate crimes against a UK citizen in a foreign country. I believe UK can request to provide assistance or a review of an investigation.

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/have-your-say/petitioning/

EDIT: Does the petition organiser have the permission of the victims families for this activity?

The value of MPs is that they can push the government to make representations to the Thai Foreign Ministry. Anyone's local MP can raise it with the government either in Parliament or in writing. No need for a petition.

UK government guidelines for British police investigating murders of UK citizens abroad are here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

Since both victims' bodies were repatriated autopsies must have been done as a legal obligation and, since they were both resident in England (not in Scotland or N. Ireland) inquests to establish the cause of death are also a legal obligation. The coroner may ask UK police to assist with investigations. Section 5 says that British police can conduct an investigation if requested by the foreign government, or importantly if:

"Relatives request UK police to assist in establish the circumstances surrounding the death of a British national. This often arises where the family is dissatisfied with the investigation overseas, and seeks in respect of best practice in murder investigation. It is important to remember that UK police have no power to conduct investigations overseas and the primacy of the relevant country must be respected."

So, if the families were to request it the British police could investigate at least evidence that is in the UK, i.e. autopsy reports whatever information is with friends of David and Hannah and the notorious Mr McAnna, if he ever resurfaces. If he is in Italy, Italian police would no problem letting British police fly out to interview him.

If British police suspected Sean of being involved in the murders, they could extradite him to the UK to face trial under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act. If they believe he has committed sexual offences abroad, he could be extradited to the UK under the 2003 Sexual Offences Act.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Dogmatix

[Elsuisso]

I wonder what the UK Embassy is actually doing. The outrage expressed by people on the Internet has been helpful in putting focus Thai and Burmese leadership . The only thing missing are statements from the UK. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The UK don't want to get involved otherwise others will point out the human rights abuses in the UK. There are plenty, but they either don't get reported or the people abused are foreigners, so the UK public, press and government don't care. People get locked up in the UK without charge, without trial. That is a fact and no-one cares. Some people that are locked up aren't even told what they are supposed to have done. That's the reality in the UK, so why should the government care what happens here. UK government couldn't give a toss of any UK citizens get murdered abroad.

Many on here talk about Thai people not liking Myanmar people, but it's the same in the UK. There are certain nationalities that many UK people don't like. If they get caught up in something, the people think they deserve it. No different to this situation.

Total and utter bull shit!

[evadgib]

Having read the thread I note the following:

1) Calls for warnings: Warnings are already in place and have been for years. Calling for warnings indicates that posters haven't actually looked for or read them and that is where the true problem (passage of information) lies...

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/thailand

2) Petition: The goal of the petition is seemingly calling for something that has been common practice for 3 decades:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Smith_(nurse)

3) The assumption of inactivity by the Govt: Data protection and a great deal more prevents any such action entering public domain. It is naive in the extreme to assume that nothing is going on simply because posters cannot find details online.

The only thing not covered in any of these (Koh Tao) threads is the racial element of the actual murders. I hope that this too will be properly addressed (inc by the British Govt) in due course.

Edited October 11, 2014 by evadgib

[huawei]

"I believe the UK Government has a duty of care for British subjects and should revise Foreign Office travel guidance in light of the frequency British subjects have been victims of murder, "suicides", rape and other violent crime in Thailand over the past five years."

I think this has been done for what it's worth,

Australian travel advisory suggests you think twice about going to Bali but every year hundreds of thousands of Aussies go there, a cheap holiday has erased the memory of October 2002.

As will always be the case.

Who shows much interest in the missing mh370 at the moment.

How long before this dreadful incident and the complete mishandling of the case is put to one side.

It's sad really..

[empireboy]

There's corruption and incompetence in every country but is there any more blatant than in this case? It's a very small world these days with social media and instant judgement...

[smokie36]

Why is the emphasis being put on whether these guys were slapped about or not.

From documentation, I wouldn't call the torture, including the use of boiling water, inflicted on these ALLEGED SUSPECTS, as being "slapped around."

What evidence do you have on this torture having taken place??

Photos!

The real truth of this case is we have a confession which has been rescinded.....a murder weapon which was only used on one of the victims.....a botched together re-enactment.....oh and DNA evidence taken by plod rather than proper forensics people.

I'd like to know the truth of what happened that night as I'm sure many others would Steve and if they are guilty so be it but I don't at this time see how they can convict these two Burmese when it appears the police have got at best half a story.

Half a fairytale many would suggest. Meanwhile the rest of us await the next move....probably heavily leaning on the Samui prosecutor as we speak......

Edited October 11, 2014 by smokie36

[Elsuisso]

the uk does not want to point fingers like in the tv pics. their own record on rapes & crime in general is so-so at best. the uk lost so much credibility with the middle east people rapeing there young women in a multi year rape fest that the police knew about, but did nothing.yes the uk will keep mouth closed & pretend to not notice the dead couples family weeping. stiff upper lip, did i say that right?

Total and utter bull shit - again!

[cbluck58]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I wonder what the UK Embassy is actually doing. The outrage expressed by people on the Internet has been helpful in putting focus Thai and Burmese leadership . The only thing missing are statements from the UK. Please correct me if I am wrong.

WAY TO GO MYANMAR !
Uk can learn a lot from your stance of strength and you will not be messed with quite as easily as you have been in the past. Anyone afraid to speak up from the FO when it is a military junta that seized power in a coup, regardless of the "show" they are giving you, is essentially a coward and You and Sean McAnna should stay hidden in the shadows of this affair so we don't have to clap eyes on either you until you can both step up. Good lord What will it take UK ?

The accused aren't UK citizens. Nothing they can do.

The victims were !!!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

Why is the emphasis being put on whether these guys were slapped about or not.

From documentation, I wouldn't call the torture, including the use of boiling water, inflicted on these ALLEGED SUSPECTS, as being "slapped around."

What evidence do you have on this torture having taken place??

Photos!

The real truth of this case is we have a confession which has been rescinded.....a murder weapon which was only used on one of the victims.....a botched together re-enactment.....oh and DNA evidence taken by plod rather than proper forensics people.

I'd like to know the truth of what happened that night as I'm sure many others would Steve and if they are guilty so be it but I don't at this time see how they can convict these two Burmese when it appears the police have got at best half a story.

Half a fairytale many would suggest. Meanwhile the rest of us await the next move....probably heavily leaning on the Samui prosecutor as we speak......

Agree with everything in your post - this investigation was cocked up right from the beginning.

To avoid sounding like a parrot - where is this proof of torture?

Murderer suspects (the accused) are bound to say this, especially with the encouragement of their defence lawyer. Everyone has jumped on the band waggon and assumed that they were tortured, on their word. Well I take this with a pinch of salt - until that is, someone shows me proof that this occurred! A far as I am concerned they freely admitted (without force from the Thai police) that they committed the rape and murders. It was only when the defence lawyer came on board that they rescinded their confessions and there was all this talk of torture all of a sudden.

That's my position and I'm sticking with it!

Don't forget, they have openly admitted the rapes by accident (even insisting that they did it, to their 'own side') so there is no defending that aspect and they must stand trial for rape.

[CapeThai]

love the smug contented grin on his face. Strutting around like a peacock thinking to himself who care about or what these stupid Burmese think. if we want to stich someone up on murder charges we will. He is so proud of the job his police have done and rewarded them for their corruption.

Let the man have his moment before the on them all.

First of all their " corruption attempt " is full of holes and not as water tight as they might think.

Secondly this case is drawing more and more International attention by the day, Thanks to people like us and likewise who wants justice for Hannah and David and Will Succeed.

Thirdly, they made their Bed and they must now sleep in it.....

May God have Mercy on their Souls..... Oh Sorry... what the hell am I talking about. I mean Faces..

[huawei]

Why is the emphasis being put on whether these guys were slapped about or not.

From documentation, I wouldn't call the torture, including the use of boiling water, inflicted on these ALLEGED SUSPECTS, as being "slapped around."

What evidence do you have on this torture having taken place??

Photos!

The real truth of this case is we have a confession which has been rescinded.....a murder weapon which was only used on one of the victims.....a botched together re-enactment.....oh and DNA evidence taken by plod rather than proper forensics people.

I'd like to know the truth of what happened that night as I'm sure many others would Steve and if they are guilty so be it but I don't at this time see how they can convict these two Burmese when it appears the police have got at best half a story.

Half a fairytale many would suggest. Meanwhile the rest of us await the next move....probably heavily leaning on the Samui prosecutor as we speak......

Agree with everything in your post - this investigation was cocked up right from the beginning.

To avoid sounding like a parrot - where is this proof of torture?

Murderer suspects (the accused) are bound to say this, especially with the encouragement of their defence lawyer. Everyone has jumped on the band waggon and assumed that they were tortured, on their word. Well I take this with a pinch of salt - until that is, someone shows me proof that this occurred! A far as I am concerned they freely admitted (without force from the Thai police) that they committed the rape and murders. It was only when the defence lawyer came on board that they rescinded their confessions and there was all this talk of torture all of a sudden.

That's my position and I'm sticking with it!

Don't forget, they have openly admitted the rapes by accident (even insisting that they did it, to their 'own side') so there is no defending that aspect and they must stand trial for rape.

You clearly have had no dealings with the police, no involvement with lawyers and no court experience and seem to no very little about how Thailand "works".

All your arguments are framed around your western experiences and perceptions .. Stick to whatever you like, you seem a bit obsessive about this subject..with zero empathy for the victims something you have in common with the above Thai institutions .

[Jip66]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

You may want to add. The petition page where you sign is defaulted in Thai language. So if you do want to do this scroll down to the very bottom of the page and there is a language box drop down menu. Here you can change it to English.

The language is defaulted to the country you are currently in from which you accessed the site!!!!

[cup-O-coffee]

"The finance minister needs to lie sometimes to create good feelings. The world knows this as a 'white lie'. The goal is to create confidence, which in turn benefits the country's economy as a whole..." -Finance Minister Kittiratt Na-Ranong

Anything else?

[kinmaew]

I can understand the bullet proof vests but wearing police helmets what purpose does that serve? This whole thing stinks to high heaven of B&C when will there ever be correct transparency and genuine good will in that country from their "Leaders" (Which is the nicest term I can use on this forum to refer to them).

[Mudcrab]

Hello all... I'm helping out the guy who is running the petition (http://goo.gl/FD66Th) to get the UK gov to independently investigate David and Hannah's murders and I need a favour from you wonderful people... The numbers of signees are slowing down somewhat, but we need to keep going - if we reach 100k (currently just over 50k) we can ask for it to be discussed in Parliament.

Anyway trying it tap into new channels outside if what we are currently hitting, so we've just set up a Twitter account - if you have twitter can you pls follow us and give us a share/retweet? Many thanks... We are at: @ThailandJustice

Thank you

It does not require 100k people to request to have a matter raised in Parliament. The procedures are laid out in the URL below. As a poster has already mentioned HMG does not have jurisdiction to independently investigate crimes against a UK citizen in a foreign country. I believe UK can request to provide assistance or a review of an investigation.

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/have-your-say/petitioning/

EDIT: Does the petition organiser have the permission of the victims families for this activity?

The value of MPs is that they can push the government to make representations to the Thai Foreign Ministry. Anyone's local MP can raise it with the government either in Parliament or in writing. No need for a petition.

UK government guidelines for British police investigating murders of UK citizens abroad are here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

Since both victims' bodies were repatriated autopsies must have been done as a legal obligation and, since they were both resident in England (not in Scotland or N. Ireland) inquests to establish the cause of death are also a legal obligation. The coroner may ask UK police to assist with investigations. Section 5 says that British police can conduct an investigation if requested by the foreign government, or importantly if:

"Relatives request UK police to assist in establish the circumstances surrounding the death of a British national. This often arises where the family is dissatisfied with the investigation overseas, and seeks in respect of best practice in murder investigation. It is important to remember that UK police have no power to conduct investigations overseas and the primacy of the relevant country must be respected."

So, if the families were to request it the British police could investigate at least evidence that is in the UK, i.e. autopsy reports whatever information is with friends of David and Hannah and the notorious Mr McAnna, if he ever resurfaces. If he is in Italy, Italian police would no problem letting British police fly out to interview him.

If British police suspected Sean of being involved in the murders, they could extradite him to the UK to face trial under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act. If they believe he has committed sexual offences abroad, he could be extradited to the UK under the 2003 Sexual Offences Act.

Only one was British apparently. The other was from Jersey I believe. You may need to start another petition for the Channel Islands. I suspect both petitions will have the same result - absolutely zero effect on either Government.

As hard as it is to say this - the British Government has a lot more on its hands - think ISIS,home-grown terrorism, Ebola and Ukraine crisis - than to worry about the "small' people who lost their lives in a far off country.

While it is a very sad situation for all concerned, including the Myanmar gentlemen, don't hold you breath that much will happen. If it does and the mafia etc are exposed and the son of the boss is charged - great - but as I said don't hold your breath.

[heyexile]

Having read the thread I note the following:

1) Calls for warnings: Warnings are already in place and have been for years. Calling for warnings indicates that posters haven't actually looked for or read them and that is where the true problem (passage of information) lies...

2) Petition: The goal of the petition is seemingly calling for something that has been common practice for 3 decades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Smith_(nurse)

3) The assumption of inactivity by the Govt: Data protection and a great deal more prevents any such action entering public domain. It is naive in the extreme to assume that nothing is going on simply because posters cannot find details online.

The only thing not covered in any of these (Koh Tao) threads is the racial element of the actual murders. I hope that this too will be properly addressed (inc by the British Govt) in due course.

Quite right. Someone knows what they are talking about.

1) uk.gov.org travel warnings for isles already on their site a long time before this tragic case.

2) Autopsies on poor Hannah and David already performed in uk. Full Coroners` Inquests to commence Jan 6th. Sign petition anyway for publicity value.

3) HMG have been very active. They elicited not one but two bikini apologies for a start. FO have publicly expressed concerns that investigation be fair and transparent.

The unfairly maligned Mark Kent called on the Police Commissioner General to offer British expertise and express `concerns`. Police deliberately misstated purpose of visit and the Ambassador`s views.

MK is assisting Andy Hall`s mission and has made representations in person to Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs. He has to follow instructions/guidance from FO London.

Channel Isles are Crown Territories. UK Govt is responsible for their international relationships etc.

Edited October 11, 2014 by heyexile

[Dogmatix]

As far as I can tell, with all the lavish thanks laid on Sean Mcanna's soundcloud page (instigated by CSI -LA, a weak point for them here I feel) he still hasn't done or said anything of worth. Maybe he is speaking and we won't find out about it for a while in whcih case I will apologise to him, but it seems unlikely so at the moment I view him contemptuosly as the little bitch he appears to be

Here Mr Mon talks about Sean from 1:24. He says that he and his school friend, the region 8 policeman, shown with him intimidating Sean in the mini mart on Sean's FB page, wanted to ask Sean what he was doing at the time of the murder. He said that Sean was seen covered in blood that night and you can ask the staff at Lotus bar who cleaned in off for him. Sean told Mr Mon that he hadn't gone anywhere on the night of the murder but had had an accident on his motorbike.

When asked if he knew Sean, Mr Mon said that he didn't didn't but his "nong" at AC Bar, presumably Mr Worot (Nomsod), did. Mr Mon said that Sean had been on Koh Tao two years earlier and come back. He said his health (implying his mental health) had deteriorated since his earlier visit. The implication appeared to be that Sean was more heavily into alcohol and substance abuse on his more recent visit to Koh Tao.

I must say he does look like a rather beastly sort of a chap. Just my opinion . I am sure he's jolly nice really.

Certainly an upstanding citizen who just wants to see justice served. Helping police by tracking down Sean and questioning him about his potential involvement in the murder was over and above the call of duty, as was getting up so early in the morning for a night owl to assist police in poking about at the evidence on the beach.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Dogmatix