risk of working with no work permit

[bkkcanuck8]

Does anyone know of anyone that has gone to jail for not having a WP?

I never had one for 10 years when I was an English teacher and never saw one other even get caught. Actually I only ever heard of 2 getting deported but that was due to upsetting an influential person.

IMHO, many foreigners here take the law here far too seriously.

I have not paid attention to people - whether they are jailed or not. My guess is that if they are jailed it would be because they have not enough money to smooth things over or pay for "expenses" and they are there only until the monetary settlement has been reached. But that is only a guess.

Leniency is likely dependent on what profession you are in.

Now answering the one that I replied for. I have always taken the laws of the countries I am a "guest" in far more seriously than the country I am from because you are more at risk from any enforcement action that is taken (loss of job; deportation; in addition to the normal things). If you chose to violate a law of the country your are a guest in, at least take the time to be aware of what the repercussions are if you are on the wrong end of the law and caught. So it is wise as a foreigner to take the laws here seriously, even if natives don't.

[ericthai]

Jail? I didn't realise you can go to jail for it. Maybe it isn't worth it then. Shame though. Seems like a good opportunity.

Maximum penalty is 5 years in jail.

Does anyone know of anyone that has gone to jail for not having a WP?

I never had one for 10 years when I was an English teacher and never saw one other even get caught. Actually I only ever heard of 2 getting deported but that was due to upsetting an influential person.

IMHO, many foreigners here take the law here far too seriously.

Guess you have not been paying attention, things are changing. I have had friends back in late 90's that worked without work permits. One left Thailand mid 2000 the other got caught in 2008 after almost 10 years. You are rolling the dice working without a permit. For me I have been lucky that all the companies I worked for always got me a work permit. Sure 10-15 years ago I would not have worried about a work permit or my visa or overstaying, but the last few years things have changed and I would not do it.

[PaulHamon]

and we hear this story all the time, you get the job and they don't pay you... one month labor for free...

what recourse do you have?

Report them to the labour office. They ake your side and don't make a fuss about that you didn't have a work permit (for which the company can be fined as well).

really?

[catweazle]

No work permit in Thailand = No work in Thailand. Is that so difficult to understand?

[thedemon]

Jail? I didn't realise you can go to jail for it. Maybe it isn't worth it then. Shame though. Seems like a good opportunity.

Maximum penalty is 5 years in jail.

Does anyone know of anyone that has gone to jail for not having a WP?

I never had one for 10 years when I was an English teacher and never saw one other even get caught. Actually I only ever heard of 2 getting deported but that was due to upsetting an influential person.

IMHO, many foreigners here take the law here far too seriously.

Over the years I've had direct knowledge of perhaps half a dozen cases. All of them resulted in money changing hands. No prosecution.

[natway09]

Before they can even start to apply for a Wp you (they) need to change your visa category

[EnglishJohn]

I can easily believe the biggest danger is being turned in by someone else. If you cause a Thai to lose face, he will sabotage anything he can. There is often a real nasty streak under the surface.

If you are not exposed to other Thais too much - or at least not in any competition with them, then you can take a balanced risk. It depends on how big a disaster it would be for your personal life if you got deported.

The only people I see taking the exact letter of the law seriously in this country are a small group on this forum. To everyone in the real world here, it seems optional.

[kriswillems]

If you work at home the risk is extremely low.

If you're a teacher in a government school and you know how to behave the risk is also very low.

Thais will not turn you in, unless you upset them or unless you're a direct competitor of them.

Most police officers kinda tolerate farang helping their wife - they are not aware of the law - or don't care (I see farang on many markets).

If you work for an influential Thai person, the risk of being turned in is also very low.

A jealous farang is much more likely to turn you in. Absolutely avoid working without WP in places like Pattaya.

The typical fine is 35000B, possibly 1 or 2 days in jail, being deported, but not blacklisted.

Nobody goes to jail for 5 years for working without WP.
The right thing to do is getting a WP. The disadvantages and fear of being caught are not worth it.

Edited October 13, 2014 by kriswillems

[FM505]

Not worth the risk.

BS company perspective.

[gyrosman]

I'm assuming your speaking about a teachers job. This is a normal process which takes 90 days, why? because they want to see if you stay before they invest 10,000 baht for your work permit. They should roll over your tourist visa to a B visa for working and then you get your work permit. The problem with delays many of you who come here decide to or think you can be a teacher but don't bring the ORIGINAL university documents etc.. with you. This will cause further delays. I've been here 5 years and taught for three and 2 times I had to go and get another tourist visa until they process me. Companies don't like to spend money because here in LOS people come and go in less than 30 days on the job. I seen teachers step off the bus as I waiting to greet them and turn around and go home. Except for beach areas you better be prepare for a rural teaching assignment, maybe a 7-11 in town and warm beer. Good Luck! You wouldn't do jail time. So people here have not experienced the situation and are arm chair advisors.

[ThailandLOS]

You should also consider if a company that doesn't play by the rules is worth your trust. BIg time red flag IMHO.

I appreciate that the job offer appears tempting to you, but this is likely to be followed by other foul play by your employer.

If the company value your skills and wants you on-board there is no reason to wait a month to submit the proper paperwork.

[NoshowJones]

Jail? I didn't realise you can go to jail for it. Maybe it isn't worth it then. Shame though. Seems like a good opportunity.

Maximum penalty is 5 years in jail.

Does anyone know of anyone that has gone to jail for not having a WP?

I never had one for 10 years when I was an English teacher and never saw one other even get caught. Actually I only ever heard of 2 getting deported but that was due to upsetting an influential person.

IMHO, many foreigners here take the law here far too seriously.

I worked as a school teacher for three years, do not have a degree, and only two TEFLs, got one in Bangkok, and the other was from a weekend course in Scotland. I did have a work permit, but if the school did not get me one, I would still have worked.

You look after yourself first, as long as you do not interfere with anyone else. I must say I particularly like your last sentence.

[Neeranam]

So what is the reality of working without a WP?

I am not condoning it but ... if i were asked for advice, I'd say it is OK for a short time until you get one, if you are/know an influential person, work for the government. I often hear nonsense about how I can't work in my garden. Granted, if I was in Pattaya or another farang area it would be different from an Isarn city.

Let's hear the truth - maybe it's ok to work without one if your boss is up the Thai 'social ladder', if you're just helping out your wife, etc.

Let's face it there are many laws which people break in this country and it's considered 'normal' i.e riding to the 7/11 with no crash helmet on,going for a soapy massage, paying a bribe to a traffic cop, accepting immigration's offer of 2000 baht for not having to do 90 day repoerting etc.

[NoshowJones]

Does anyone know of anyone that has gone to jail for not having a WP?

I never had one for 10 years when I was an English teacher and never saw one other even get caught. Actually I only ever heard of 2 getting deported but that was due to upsetting an influential person.

IMHO, many foreigners here take the law here far too seriously.

I have not paid attention to people - whether they are jailed or not. My guess is that if they are jailed it would be because they have not enough money to smooth things over or pay for "expenses" and they are there only until the monetary settlement has been reached. But that is only a guess.

Leniency is likely dependent on what profession you are in.

Now answering the one that I replied for. I have always taken the laws of the countries I am a "guest" in far more seriously than the country I am from because you are more at risk from any enforcement action that is taken (loss of job; deportation; in addition to the normal things). If you chose to violate a law of the country your are a guest in, at least take the time to be aware of what the repercussions are if you are on the wrong end of the law and caught. So it is wise as a foreigner to take the laws here seriously, even if natives don't.

May I say again, we are not guests in this country, we are just tolerated. Thailand needs us.

[iamariva1957]

Pipiffs is right on this one.It is the way things worked where I am. Exactly what I did. I applied for the WP through the school here and that was recorded with Immigration and so all was legit. Having the physical WP in your hands is something else all together. For without it you might (I stress... might) not be able to get paid at the end of the month (as is the custom here in LOS). Differs from one place to another, but it a good rule of thumb to pay attention to. For it was certainly the way things happened for me. But I knew that going in as the people I work are, and have always been straight and gave me no BS.

But again, each can be different. Make it clear that you do not want to get into any trouble and that they have your back in writing (if possible). Carry copies of everything regarding to your WP with you so you can show that you are in the system and just waiting. Usually the government is good with that. Let your Embassy know as well. I wrote to mine (never did get an answer) just so that there was some kind of record somewhere.

Just be on the up and up and diligent and you will be fine. This is Thailand and there is already a 2-group system. Same goes for foreign teachers coming here (with the right credentials).

[NoshowJones]

I'm assuming your speaking about a teachers job. This is a normal process which takes 90 days, why? because they want to see if you stay before they invest 10,000 baht for your work permit. They should roll over your tourist visa to a B visa for working and then you get your work permit. The problem with delays many of you who come here decide to or think you can be a teacher but don't bring the ORIGINAL university documents etc.. with you. This will cause further delays. I've been here 5 years and taught for three and 2 times I had to go and get another tourist visa until they process me. Companies don't like to spend money because here in LOS people come and go in less than 30 days on the job. I seen teachers step off the bus as I waiting to greet them and turn around and go home. Except for beach areas you better be prepare for a rural teaching assignment, maybe a 7-11 in town and warm beer. Good Luck! You wouldn't do jail time. So people here have not experienced the situation and are arm chair advisors.

I don't know where you got the 10.000 Baht for a work permit from, it is 3000 Baht.

[utalkin2me]

If you want to work here, you will just have to chance it. Their system is totally ridiculous: get a job, work, and THEN get the work permit and visa (in upwards of 95% of the cases anyway). It is like you must do something illegal to work in Thailand. You either deal with it, or don't work here. The latter is WELL WELL worth its consideration, believe me.

[kurnell]

It's normal to work while the application is in process. Reckon I've done this in each of my last 6 jobs over 17 years

[balo]

If this "serious" company can't even give you a work permit (which cost them a lot of money) , they are not really serious in the first place. Oh thats right its a timeshare company , what a surprise.....

[ParadiseLost]

After living here for 10 years without violating the country's visa laws I can only say thank goodness I don't have any school going children. I would hate to have them exposed to western 'teachers' who have had no security checks, show lack of integrity, and are willing to break the law if it gets in the way of their personal aims and ambitions.. Most (illegal) are in no way permanently committed to their current job or even to their 'profession'.

Of course this is not directed at all teachers, hopefully most are genuinely qualified (?), but how is a parent to know? The schools are complicit, hiring undocumented workers and perhaps exposing children to people already showing anti-social tendencies such as narcissism... Thai kids don't need more of that, just the opposite.

My 2 cents worth, now flame away all you 'dedicated professionals' - but I wager it will be those without legal WP who do so, though. Grammar and spelling skills give them away every time...

[Asiantravel]

Jail? I didn't realise you can go to jail for it. Maybe it isn't worth it then. Shame though. Seems like a good opportunity.

Maximum penalty is 5 years in jail.

Does anyone know of anyone that has gone to jail for not having a WP?

I never had one for 10 years when I was an English teacher and never saw one other even get caught. Actually I only ever heard of 2 getting deported but that was due to upsetting an influential person.

IMHO, many foreigners here take the law here far too seriously.

that's hilarious! A foreigner telling other foreigners not to take Thai law too seriously

[utalkin2me]

After living here for 10 years without violating the country's visa laws I can only say thank goodness I don't have any school going children. I would hate to have them exposed to western 'teachers' who have had no security checks, show lack of integrity, and are willing to break the law if it gets in the way of their personal aims and ambitions.. Most (illegal) are in no way permanently committed to their current job or even to their 'profession'.

Of course this is not directed at all teachers, hopefully most are genuinely qualified (?), but how is a parent to know? The schools are complicit, hiring undocumented workers and perhaps exposing children to people already showing anti-social tendencies such as narcissism... Thai kids don't need more of that, just the opposite.

My 2 cents worth, now flame away all you 'dedicated professionals' - but I wager it will be those without legal WP who do so, though. Grammar and spelling skills give them away every time...

You are right, people do argue this point and it is truly comical. The teachers here are horrendous. I would never put a child of mine through such a horrible education system, but to each their own.

[Alwyn]

As long as the application has been lodged then I am sure you can work until the physical permit is delivered. That is the way it works where I work. It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit

My photo's were rejected because the ones of me outside the workplace with the Thai staff didn't show enough road

Go figure

Photos of you working are needed for an extension of stay not a work permit application.

Nothing like that is needed for the work permit application.

Sorry Joe but photos are need for the WP. Passport size photo and usually a photo of the work place/office to support the application is required - unless the company is well known and gone through the process a lot of times.

[kimamey]

You will also find that in a lot of cases it is another Farang that calls immigration to report you not a Thai

Probably almost 100%.

The Thais generally do not spend all their time questioning what other people do and whether it is legal.

This is what all those "holier than thou" Farang spend their time doing in the various gossip corners. Or they sit at home stewing over some stupid personal issue and working out how they can "get their own back".

Probably right as Thais don't seem all that keen on abiding by laws so aren't that interested.

I would have thought the most likely reason to be informed on by a farang is if they can't get a wp and aren't prepared to risk breaking the law or they've gone to the trouble of getting a wp and see others not bothering.

[ubonjoe]

As long as the application has been lodged then I am sure you can work until the physical permit is delivered. That is the way it works where I work. It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit

My photo's were rejected because the ones of me outside the workplace with the Thai staff didn't show enough road

Go figure

Photos of you working are needed for an extension of stay not a work permit application.

Nothing like that is needed for the work permit application.

Sorry Joe but photos are need for the WP. Passport size photo and usually a photo of the work place/office to support the application is required - unless the company is well known and gone through the process a lot of times.

"It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit"

That is the line I was replying to. Of course I do know that photos of the applicant are needed.

[elliss]

Jail? I didn't realise you can go to jail for it. Maybe it isn't worth it then. Shame though. Seems like a good opportunity.

IMO . teaching students is not all that it is made out to be. jing .

Teaching, without a work permit , no way, too many back stabbers , both thai and farang .

I was that man.

[larsjohnsson]

If this "serious" company can't even give you a work permit (which cost them a lot of money) , they are not really serious in the first place. Oh thats right its a timeshare company , what a surprise.....

It must be a really serious company if they think 3000 baht is too much for a WP

[bkkcanuck8]

If this "serious" company can't even give you a work permit (which cost them a lot of money) , they are not really serious in the first place. Oh thats right its a timeshare company , what a surprise.....

It must be a really serious company if they think 3000 baht is too much for a WP

That is just the "price" for issuing the WP itself is it not. I remember seeing a price list attached to the "Alien Act" which indicated there were quite a bit more expenses during the whole process. Then of course in all the countries I have worked, I have NEVER once gone through the process of applying for a WP for an employee by myself -- it always required to services of a law firm since the process was not as simple as getting a "retirement visa". Then I would not be surprised that if you wanted to get the visa in a reasonable amount of time you would also be expected to "grease the wheels". In the end, it would not surprise me if the total cost to the employer was closer to 100,000 baht than 3,000 baht.

[Alwyn]

As long as the application has been lodged then I am sure you can work until the physical permit is delivered. That is the way it works where I work. It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit

My photo's were rejected because the ones of me outside the workplace with the Thai staff didn't show enough road

Go figure

Photos of you working are needed for an extension of stay not a work permit application.

Nothing like that is needed for the work permit application.

Sorry Joe but photos are need for the WP. Passport size photo and usually a photo of the work place/office to support the application is required - unless the company is well known and gone through the process a lot of times.

"It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit"

That is the line I was replying to. Of course I do know that photos of the applicant are needed.

ah understood, beg your pardon Joe. Having said that when I opened my alarm company and applied for the work permit I did have to show photos of the offices and showroom and when I opened in Phuket I had to add that to my work permit so I could work both place, they asked again for office photos (including signage)

[Alwyn]

As long as the application has been lodged then I am sure you can work until the physical permit is delivered. That is the way it works where I work. It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit

My photo's were rejected because the ones of me outside the workplace with the Thai staff didn't show enough road

Go figure

Photos of you working are needed for an extension of stay not a work permit application.

Nothing like that is needed for the work permit application.

Sorry Joe but photos are need for the WP. Passport size photo and usually a photo of the work place/office to support the application is required - unless the company is well known and gone through the process a lot of times.

"It is also funny in that you have to send them photo's of you working at your place of work to apply for your permit"

That is the line I was replying to. Of course I do know that photos of the applicant are needed.

Ah, soory mate, misunderstood, but I had to give photos of my office, showroom and signage for my work permit for my own company. Maybe because it was a new company?