Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

[kieran2698]

What's the bet the court case will proceed asap so they can convict them before the UK detectives get their visas approved.

UK citizens are members of G7, they are Visa exempt, they do NOT need a Visa for the first 30 days....

They do if they intend to work, paid or unpaid.

[hobz]

Pretty big deal in the scheme of things and doubtless some face lost, especially for the weak UK 'ambassador' to Thailand with his praise for the police's handling of the investigation. They'll get the runaround, no doubt, and it'll be like working with tetchy teenagers, but if the Thais do sandbag this (foregone conclusion) they could be looking at some interesting travel advisories.

Actually he never praised police work. It was just attempted media manipulation which i think contributed to this end result that the uk is now coming

[bapoboy]

I don't think the thai police have the brains to play this game with the British. They will shoot themselves in the foot with every answer they give, every excuse/piece of evidence they produce & they won't even know they've done it until the British inquest is complete.

think it is rather the reverse, just stay tuned to the massive power of Islamists and terrorists will remain in the uk, government / police has zero control over Muslims in birmingham uk ..... hahahahaha.

[bkkjohnny69]

OH YEAA

This is what we wanted all along, objective reached.

BIG thanks to everyone who made a fuss and helped get the word out.

For once its one up to the good guys.

Yes excellent news indeed, still it's very embarrassing for the British Ambassador and his cronies who should have organised this in the first place instead of us having to sidestep them in the first place whilst they dithered. I just hope that vital evidence still remains.

[hobz]

Very good news indeed

For me it Seems like the RTP maybe has a strong case to allowing the UK police to arrive and look at the case.

The general will not allow this if they don't have a good case. If the UK police find a mismatch on the DNA, this will be a totally face lose for the general and .

on the other hand this cut be a win win situation for the thailand, general and the police, if the UK police don't have anything to say and the DNA match and then show to the world the police is doing a good job and has nothing to hide

Could be that the thai pm has been stupid enough to believe his police chiefs in that the case is strong.

[bongoz]

It will be an eye opener for the Brits if nothing else. As long as they can learn the word "krap" and how to say it every other word with a slight difference of inflection they should be fine. The problem as always will be tiptoeing around the intricacies of Thai etiquette for the uninitiated. Basically, just treat them as spoilt brats with zero grasp of logic or decency.

So what you are saying is treat them like children...

[Pattaya46]

The law in the UK is that should a citizen be murdered abroad and the body repatriated

then an independent autopsy has to be carried out before the body is handed back to the family, //

The law in Thailand is that a foreigners who die here (usually) get an autopsy,

and that bodies must be embalmed before being shipped backed to their country.

I wonder what a second autopsy could give on such bodies ?

[T_Dog]

Very good news indeed

For me it Seems like the RTP maybe has a strong case to allowing the UK police to arrive and look at the case.

The general will not allow this if they don't have a good case. If the UK police find a mismatch on the DNA, this will be a totally face lose for the general and .

on the other hand this cut be a win win situation for the thailand, general and the police, if the UK police don't have anything to say and the DNA match and then show to the world the police is doing a good job and has nothing to hide

Could be that the thai pm has been stupid enough to believe his police chiefs in that the case is strong.

That might be naive hypothesis. Likely he was in on it from the beginning, perhaps paying back a favor. Time will tell. His chance to do the right thing is well past its "best if used by" date.

[bongoz]

I just had to throw up a website to celebrate the fantastic news http://thailandjustice.com/

You call that a website??

Well it's a darn site better than yours...???

[hobz]

I'm thinking that we are witnessing the final showdown between the military and the police in their power struggle.

Other posters have also alluded to this - Prayuth, in his new "international" role has been rudely awakened to the fact that Thailand is not the perfect, superior, isolated paradise and does have to answer to world opinion - like it or not.

He must be acutely aware that, in the eyes of the rest of the world, the disgraceful actions of the R.T.P. have caused Thailand and therefore he, as it's representative, severe embarrassment and, being that this man is far from stupid, he might just have decided to throw them to the wolves in an attempt to regain international credibility.

If I'm right, and time will tell, he will have made a very shrewd move.

He will have cemented his status as a true statesman whilst also salvaging the reputation of Thailand, ensuring that the Thai military are firmly in control of events and allowing the first real shakeup of the worthless R.T.P.

I'm only speculating, of course, but it would indeed be a fascinating scenario if it turns out to be true.........................

I hope your right A18, as if he is that shrewd his power and popularity will skyrocket and the traditional influential thugs power will diminish as they are exposed as nothing but an impediment to Thai growth in the international arena. It's a big one I know but lets continue to keep a positive outlook as lately i have been moving towards the naysayers camp.

I might be pessimistic but i think the entire police force is corrupt. Nationwide. So throwing a small Island police station under the bus means nothing. His reluctance to do so means he is either stupid or not willing/able to tackle corruption for real.

[JLCrab]

OH YEAA

This is what we wanted all along, objective reached.

BIG thanks to everyone who made a fuss and helped get the word out.

For once its one up to the good guys.

Yes excellent news indeed, still it's very embarrassing for the British Ambassador and his cronies who should have organised this in the first place instead of us having to sidestep them in the first place whilst they dithered. I just hope that vital evidence still remains.

Based on the document from which I have posted excerpts "MURDER, MANSLAUGHTER AND INFANTICIDE OF BRITISH NATIONALS ABROAD (2012)" this is a well documented procedure and most likely much was going on behind the scenes to prepare for the scheduled-well-in-advance Milan meeting when both the PM's of Thailand and UK would be in attendance.

[SPB65]

It will be an eye opener for the Brits if nothing else. As long as they can learn the word "krap" and how to say it every other word with a slight difference of inflection they should be fine. The problem as always will be tiptoeing around the intricacies of Thai etiquette for the uninitiated. Basically, just treat them as spoilt brats with zero grasp of logic or decency.

So what you are saying is treat them like children...

The Thais yes. For that is what they are culturally speaking.

Personally I'd like the Brits to send in all their best TV detectives since the 70s. The Sweeney, The Professionals, Inspector Morse and of course the recent Sherlock. It would make great viewing.

[DerekMarshall]

"thats an ORDER General"

For those who were asking

"look I´ve got an election sometime next year, I´ll scratch your back if you scratch mine, let my boys in to ponder about and you´ll get to save face and look

good in the international arena and in front of your own nationals and I may gain some respect from my people. It´s win-win lets do it!"

[hobz]

This is a step in the right direction, but people are dreaming if they think the dna tests will be confirmed one way or the other with UK involvement. Any samples collected will have been totally corrupted by now, either inadvertantly or on purpose so that the results give the desired outcome. It's been a total cock-up since day 1, and hard to see justice being done now. The Thai police are an embarrassment and make Thailand a laughing stock.

Not if the uk vad access to victims bodies early and managed to take their own samples. Then they can simply cross check their samples with the scapegoats and confirm. To catch the real killers they would need to get new fresh samples from the real suspects, but thats another story.

[Chernsarmkhuat]

Terrible tale of Island Turtle.

A brutal murder on a Turtle Island shore

Hannah and David’s potential and promise silenced for ever more

Village Headman Son has fled the scene,

Though hundreds DNA tested his DNA test, will never be seen.

Dr. P. throws her hands in the air,

This crime scene is mangled, mangled beyond repair.

Dead men do tell tales, this I swear,

But by accident or design, on this shore there is nothing to hear.

No local is capable of such a deed,

Round up that Farang it must be his seed.

And to boot I know he is gay.

That clinches it, go on make my day.

Guaranteed a fat promotion will soon be coming my way.

What is that you sayin.?

The DNA belongs to an Asian,

Must be those Myanmar’s.

You know, those on the rock playing their guitars,

Smoking cigarettes, drinking wine and staring at the stars

But those Dudes normally keep their heads down and don’t say boo to a mouse.

And when their friend got home at 5 am they were sleeping like babies in the house.

Furthermore they don’t look strong enough to pick up a hoe.

David was a big man and those wounds required a terribly strong blow.

Did those baby-face dudes do it? I just don’t think so.

Never mind! Round them up! A few days in the clink will be the first session,

With a little rough treatment to keep em guessin.

Believe you me we will soon get a confession.

I am sure they will regret their heinous deeds and commit suicide

The perfect investigation will be closed and then we will really have nothing to hide.

If they make it to trial we will give them an option,

Admit your guilt and sign a confession,

Then instead of death, you will live to spend your life in prison.

If they make it to trial that’s what we will do.

We will leave it to them, as we say, “Up to you!”

The police will never use scapegoats on such a high profile crime the General does roar.

But General we whisper, cowering below, they have done it before

What about Akeyuth, Santipharp, Somchai and Mohammed need I say more.

Of victims I now count four,

The victims loved ones, families and the truth, will add up the score.

[paddyjenkins]

Thailand agrees to British police help over murders

London, Royaume-Uni | AFP | Friday 10/17/2014

The grisly murders on the normally tranquil Thai island delivered a fresh blow to the kingdom's image as a tourist haven after months of political protests that ended in May's army coup, when Prayut seized power.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2014-10-17

I'm confused. Is this island normally tranquil or are crimes of violence including murder actually quite frequent? I mean, we read about them all the time. Wasn't there a murder of another young Englishman just a year ago at the exact same spot, for example? Yes, many aren't murders and merely involve a gang of opportunistic locals beating a falang into unconsciousness, say, maybe just some gashes on the head or face from being smashed with chairs or bottles etc or repeated kicks into the face, maybe just smashed teeth, a broken jaw or nose etc, so not murder. Or perhaps just intimidation or robbery. Or just plain old scams. But like Phuket, Pattaya, Koh Samui etc. tranquil isn't a word I would have thought of. Edited October 18, 2014 by paddyjenkins

[AGareth2]

thanks for the links relating to forensic testing

[Artisi]

The only question is : did the British perform such a sampling or did the body of this poor girl go untouched after entering British soil ? I don't recall reading anywhere, clearly, that British authorities had made such a move after recovering the body.

Of course they did. They are complete pro's, just like American cops, German cops, etc. Just because they didn't inform you or anyone else in the media - they always do their job.

Knock the Brits, the Americans, the Aussies, etc. all you want. But one thing for sure, they all have well-trained professional cops.

A bit off topic but most western police forces would not be threatened by another force asking for assistance or even to be involved in a case. Their aim is to put away the bad guys...

But not in Thailand, the aim in many cases is not to put the bad guys away ..

[Elsuisso]

UK police to join in probe of British tourist murders

UK police officers are to travel to Thailand to help investigate the murders of two British tourists found dead on the island of Koh Tao, BBC reported yesterday.

BBC claimed that Thai Prime Minister Gen Prayuth Chan-o-cha has dropped objections to accepting help in the case after being pressed on the issue in a meeting with UK Prime Minister David Cameron.

The bodies of David Miller, 24, and Hannah Witheridge, 23, were discovered on a beach last month.

Two Burmese men are under arrest.

The police investigation into the murders has been widely criticised. The UK Foreign Office summoned the Thai charge daffaires earlier this week to express concern.

Gen Prayuth met Mr Cameron at a summit in Italy and agreed that a delegation of British officers could travel to Thailand, having previously rejected offers of assistance.

BBC quoted diplomatic source as saying Thai authorities were leading the investigation, but it was important that both of the families can be reassured that it is the murderers that have been brought to justice.

The diplomatic said: There are two areas we are particularly concerned about. One is the verification of the DNA samples of the suspects, making sure there is further independent verification.

And the second is the investigation into allegations of mistreatment of the suspects.

What the PM secured this morning was agreement from the Thai PM that we can send some British police investigators to Koh Tao to work with the Royal Thai Police on this, BBC said.

The discussion between the leaders came at the Asia Europe Meeting in Milan.

Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both migrant workers from Myanmar, apparently confessed to the killings earlier this month.

Thai police have denied subsequent reports that the pair, both aged 21, then withdrew their confessions.

Both were in court for a pre-trial witness hearing on the island of Koh Samui on Tuesday, but did not testify.

They are charged with conspiracy to murder, conspiracy to rape and robbery, and could face the death penalty if found guilty.

Post-mortem examinations found Mr Miller, from Jersey, died from drowning and a blow to the head, while Miss Witheridge, from Great Yarmouth, died from head wounds.

Police have said DNA found on Ms Witheridge matched samples taken from the suspects.

Concerns about the murder investigation include the fact the crime scene was not sealed off after the killings as well as the fact an early statement was released by police saying that no Thai person could have committed such a crime.

Mr Zaws mother Phyu Shwe Nu has said her son was being made a scapegoat by Thai police, BBC said.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/uk-police-join-probe-british-tourist-murders/

-- Thai PBS 2014-10-18

Ah so now the charges are "conspiracy" to rape and murder - not rape and murder, never heard that before...!

[JoeLing]

I just had to throw up a website to celebrate the fantastic news http://thailandjustice.com/

You call that a website??

Well it's a darn site better than yours...???

Definitely not

It made "Thailandchilli" throw up,

It made me crack up,

and it made you [and some others] defenders of ....... nothing

Edited October 18, 2014 by JoeLing

[phantomfiddler]

I would like to see the scenario in which the sons of "influential people" (who refused to give a DNA sample and were actually seen in altercation with the victims shortly before their deaths) thoroughly explored. A very positive move though, and I hope Inspector Morse will get to the bottom of such a tragic and reprehensible act.

[flyingdoc]

Let's hope this permission is genuine and all embracing!

[Artisi]

I'm thinking that we are witnessing the final showdown between the military and the police in their power struggle.

Other posters have also alluded to this - Prayuth, in his new "international" role has been rudely awakened to the fact that Thailand is not the perfect, superior, isolated paradise and does have to answer to world opinion - like it or not.

He must be acutely aware that, in the eyes of the rest of the world, the disgraceful actions of the R.T.P. have caused Thailand and therefore he, as it's representative, severe embarrassment and, being that this man is far from stupid, he might just have decided to throw them to the wolves in an attempt to regain international credibility.

If I'm right, and time will tell, he will have made a very shrewd move.

He will have cemented his status as a true statesman whilst also salvaging the reputation of Thailand, ensuring that the Thai military are firmly in control of events and allowing the first real shakeup of the worthless R.T.P.

I'm only speculating, of course, but it would indeed be a fascinating scenario if it turns out to be true.........................

It would be far too much to hope for.

But what an opportunity to completely cull, and I mean completely cull the top ranks and appoint some junior police officers. The country would be no worse off with new police chiefs as it appears the majority now on top are pretty useless, corrupt and ineffective only interested in their own benefits.

There is also the need to the equivalent of the Wood's Royal commission instigated in NSW a few years back - now that really sorted out the goodies and the baddies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_the_New_South_Wales_Police_Service

[simon43]

The general was backed in to a corner and this is huge loss of face on his part.[

Now is absolutely not the time to publically 'gloat' about the loss of face, or 'cheer on' the british police.

General Prayuth could have easily rejected the request from the British government. He has been wise enough to allow the British police to send officers to work alongside the Thai police.

Those British officers will need to be very aware of the cultural differences between the UK and Thailand, and especially concerning the 'sensitivities' of this case. No barging in, no advising the local plod that they are corrupt dimwits etc etc.

This is a rare opportunity for the British police to 'share' their knowledge and expertise with the Thai authorities.

I wish those British officers the very best of luck in their difficult task.

[kcirtapyelrah]

Knowing the bureaucratic mad Brits, they will no doubt involve as many departments as they can to confuse the whole operation.

Remember Portugal.....and the "help" the British gave in the Maddie affair?

What a right unholy mess that was. Every tosser wanted in on the action and wrecked any chance of a positive outcome. (The Portuguese police didn't help either)

If you study that case in depth, you'll find that there's a lot more to it than meets the eye.

[thailandchilli]

I just had to throw up a website to celebrate the fantastic news http://thailandjustice.com/

You call that a website??

Well it's a darn site better than yours...???

Definitely not

It made "Thailandchilli" throw up,

It made me crack up,

and it made you [and some others] defenders of ....... nothing

Oh dear you kind of missed the point, the site was thrown up as a feeling of joy that things are moving ahead on the case, it took me 10 mins to do literally, it was not meant to be pretty, functional, user friendly, or anything other than my own personal recognition of the success of the pressure that has been exerted by the masses to get where we are now. Of course I can clean it up and develop but that would not be for your benefit, it would be for my own. At the moment it stays as it is, if needed at a later stage it will be developed. But thanks for your valuable opinions

[ChiangraiTony]

This news is a definite positive step in bringing greater confidence and sense-ability of the facts. We were all wanting to get an independent assessment so we should all be happy about that.

It's quite difficult to determine at this point what approach the British investigators will persue. Most definitely, Thailand will be leading every step of the way. With the difference in languages both verbal and written, and then translations, things will probably take much more time to obtain clarification. The evidence along with questions and answers will most likely be asked multiple times and this will go back and forth until it becomes crystal clear to the British investigators. I believe there will be much frustration on both sides.

Having said that, one approach that may be taken is to understand the "standards" that were used in preserving the crime scene and the collection of DNA samples and of course the entire process of DNA laboratory testing.

I suspect that there are instances where the Thai investigators have had made several mistakes, and these mistakes will not go unnoticed by the new investigation team.

Areas where mistakes were made and now brought to light by the British can only help the defense team when the case goes to Court. Especially if the Thai police are reluctant to accept and correct any mistakes if it's not to late (relative to the accused, crime and crime scene).

Let's all hope that in the end the innocent victims get justice and their families can look past this horrible incident. Let's all hope too that if there was injustice initiated by any Thai authorities that the world exposure will cause the Thai PM to make major reform.

Either way, this is a turning point for Thailand. All eyes are watching...

I'm fairly certain that after all is said and done that the Thai police will be extremely surprised at how intelligent the British investigators have been, and I'm also fairly certain that the British investigators will have disbelief in the many ways the Thai police have gone about this investigation.

So let's all get geared-up because the real work is ready to begin. Best of luck to the British Investigators. Let's hope that the Thai authority does the right thing so all that have an interest and all us expats can feel good about Thailand and not feel embarrassed to call Thailand our home.

[tullynagardy]

My rating for both David Cameron and General Prayuth Chan-o-cha has just stepped up a notch,

Both of them are knob ends.

As for Prayuth, this is just a humiliating climb down as Thailands place in the world pecking order finally sinks in. He now knows hes a big fish in a small pond.The UK means 1 million tourists and billions in trade each year to Thailand. Thailand means a few high so students and a few cases of Scotch in trade to the UK.

He simply is in no position to start a diplomatic incident from this position. Sadly it took him weeks to realise this.

[elektrified]

How many detectives do you think there are serving in British police forces, that can speak Thai, Burmese, and the dialect of the 2 suspects fluently enough to conduct an investigation and interviews?

Maybe better to use the embassies' translators.

There are some 100%.

Really? You believe there are some British police officers 100% fluent in Thai, some 100% fluent in Burmese and, some 100% fluent in the uncommon dialect spoken by the 2 accused.

Are you Thai?

Somebody working for the British Government certainly is. There was a full translation of the FCO statement released in parallel to the English announcement. I doubt they had somebody run down the local Thai restaurant to get it done.

Thanks for that. Aren't there some real dummies on this forum? The British police (as well as other European police) have people working for them who speak fluent Thai, Russian, French, and on and on. In Los Angeles, the L.A.P.D. have officers and detectives who speak fluent Thai, Vietnamese, Chinese, Korean, Russian, Spanish........come on people, these are professional homicide detectives from a special unit trained in International matters. Do some of you think the U.K. is going to send a few village bobbies or hobby bobbies to Thailand for an International murder investigation? Some of you should use your brains before posting!

[phuketandsee]

johnthailandjohn, jdinasia, sichonsteve and stutteringparrot seem to have gone strangely quiet. Can't think why.