In the context of Thailand, what is a digital nomad?

[Soutpeel]

I would suggest that some "digital nomad" bashers try selling a fake LV on eBay. Hell, let's make it easy. Try selling a real LV on eBay and see what happens. Your account will be limited before you can spell "digital nomad".

...

So that's why you're so upset. Now I understand.

How much do you want for it then?

The fake one I mean.

Seems his cunning business plan to generate millions from digital pikery has gone off the rails

To show my generosity to those less fortunate farangs I will donate a 12 pack of mamma noodles and pay his membership dues to the ALBC

[chrisinth]

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Real Digital Nomads will not have a problem, visa abusers that claim they are a Nomad are very different.

I read this as 'I'm losing the debate, I'll latch on to the fact jspill doesn't turn up to his Thai classes and doesn't leave Thailand much'.

Nomads have already left their country to generate passive income in Thailand, that's nomadic. Maybe I'll do 15 years here then try Vietnam. I've done a couple weeks here and there in Laos, Cambo, Phils, and moved around between BKK, Udon and Hua Hin. If that's not nomadic enough for you draw me up a travel itinerary and I'll do my best to tour around a bit more.

Why not call yourselves ex-pats? What has passive income got to do with nomads?

Or are ex-pats nomads as well? Or is it just a legality issue?

Not sure about you but I'm getting confused with the factions here..........................

[Soutpeel]

Real Digital Nomads will not have a problem, visa abusers that claim they are a Nomad are very different.

I read this as 'I'm losing the debate, I'll latch on to the fact jspill doesn't turn up to his Thai classes and doesn't leave Thailand much'.

Nomads have already left their country to generate passive income in Thailand, that's nomadic. Maybe I'll do 15 years here then try Vietnam. I've done a couple weeks here and there in Laos, Cambo, Phils, and moved around between BKK, Udon and Hua Hin. If that's not nomadic enough for you draw me up a travel itinerary and I'll do my best to tour around a bit more.

WOW a real jet setting I must say, what your describing is a gap year students do before they get their first real job

[bananafish]

The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.

From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.

The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.

From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.

I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

Clueless.

[JonboyBKK]

I would like to offer another angle on this a someone who considers themselves to be a digital nomad. I think the definitions that the OP gave are a bit too narrow as there are many kinds of people living in Thailand that should fall into this category that are not young and not programmers or daytime traders.

The digital part of the term in my opinion simply means you make money using a computer, whether you are a programmer or simply send emails and close deals really doesn’t matter in the eyes of the Thai legal system. I would define it as follows:

Any person working remotely and making money outside of Thailand, does not make THB, does not have Thai staff, and does not take anything away from the economy of Thailand.

I have met quite a few people with different kinds of situations that are similar to my own. I have a company in HK and another in Mainland China. I have a legal work permit and visa in China and an office with staff in China. I run the entire operation (with some partners) from Thailand and have for years. I could basically live anywhere so I’m just as much of a digital nomad as some young kid programming.

Now when people suggest that I am doing something wrong because I don’t open a company in Thailand, I find it to be a bit obnoxious as I think it is Thailand who is not giving any of us the ability to do so.

In China you can open a WFOE (wholly foreign owned enterprise) for an investment of $100,000 USD over 2 years. You can get a visa and you are a totally legal entity. You do not need to hire staff and it’s relatively easy to get this done. The result is that thousands of foreigners do this and pay tax.

Thailand needs to update their ancient laws and create a new kind of company that people like me can have to stay in Thailand if they want to handle this problem. If it was similar where the invest capital was $100,000 USD in 2 years, you get only 1 visa, and you cannot make THB, this would be attractive to me and also beneficial to Thailand. The benefits for us are that we have a legal visa and we can prove income to banks in case we want to buy a condo or simply settle in Thailand.

Thailand will make some tax and also have a better idea who is a real tourist or not. I think earlier this year, the “tourist” numbers took a huge hit because Thailand considers Digital Nomads to be tourists and some of them are counted as tourists 6-10 times per year. I am almost 40 and I make a good salary so I can just fly to Cambo for a night when I need to.

Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and say there are people that work hard to get this status and we should not all be treated like unemployed idiots.

[yellowboat]

I did PHP MySQL work years ago. Wrote code for an English club is about 50,000 members in the lalte 1990's. Allowed them to have their own page, send messages to one another,

and play games. Thought people who undulged in these sorts of online activities needed to get a life. It seems there is a huge market catering to those people. Boy did I miss out.

Thai Immigration seems to not to care that you are bringing money into the country, they want a bigger fee. They want you to open a business when you do not need to. China does not act this way and Cambodia has faster Internet and welcoming immigration rules. Your better programmers are in Siagon. Chaing Mai is cheap and it makes sense to live in a comfortable, exespensive place if you are just banging out code all day.

If you are going to work as a contractor, it is best to set up in Hong Kong or Singapore. For $1500 a year, no reporting , you can open a Samoan company and open a Hong Kong bank account from which you can invoice.

[jspill]

To me you're only working in Thailand if you're paid in THB. Those paid in other currencies from offshore sources are not. Makes sense as consulates ask for records of income from outside Thailand when making repeated visa applications, as proof you're not working in Thailand.

[chrisandsu]

Get the BIB to guard starbucks. Stop the buggers from sitting around all day sucking on a green tea, stealing the bleeding wifi

[yellowboat]

To me you're only working in Thailand if you're paid in THB. Those paid in other currencies from offshore sources are not. Makes sense as consulates ask for records of income from outside Thailand when making repeated visa applications, as proof you're not working in Thailand.

You are mistakenly coming from a point of logic and reason. The current, non elected government wants you to pay for living in Thailand. It is just about money and not about the law.

[mrtoad]

To me you're only working in Thailand if you're paid in THB. Those paid in other currencies from offshore sources are not. Makes sense as consulates ask for records of income from outside Thailand when making repeated visa applications, as proof you're not working in Thailand.

You are mistakenly coming from a point of logic and reason. The current, non elected government wants you to pay for living in Thailand. It is just about money and not about the law.

It wasn't any different under any of the elected governments, or in most other democratic countries.

[Soutpeel]

To me you're only working in Thailand if you're paid in THB. Those paid in other currencies from offshore sources are not. Makes sense as consulates ask for records of income from outside Thailand when making repeated visa applications, as proof you're not working in Thailand.

Thats what you think, but that ain't what the law says, you can we working in Thailand even if your not getting paid, so where you get paid or in what currency you get paid in is irrelevant

For example, although I have a WP I get paid in USD, although I could have chosen to be paid in THB, Euro or even Sing dollars if I wished it

So that another one of your bright ideas shot down

[jspill]

Many reports like this on thaivisa:

When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa. I've got no interest in being "under the radar" as far as I can see the only people who have an issue with the legality of on line work are other westerners posting on here and their opinions really don't matter.

Source http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920

[theonetrueaussie]

The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.

From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.

The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.

From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.

I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

sounds like a grumpy old man lol

Edited October 27, 2014 by theonetrueaussie

[Soutpeel]

To me you're only working in Thailand if you're paid in THB. Those paid in other currencies from offshore sources are not. Makes sense as consulates ask for records of income from outside Thailand when making repeated visa applications, as proof you're not working in Thailand.

You are mistakenly coming from a point of logic and reason. The current, non elected government wants you to pay for living in Thailand. It is just about money and not about the law.

Why are you making this political, the rules were in place long before the most recent coup, so your off topic and obviously don't have a clue about what your talking about

[Soutpeel]

The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.

From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.

The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.

From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.

I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

As a digital nomad that makes online games, Once a game is made it runs online with virtually no more time needed on it maybe 1-2 weeks a year to add some new content to the game. It is easy to make 6 figures or more a year from this type of work and travel the globe, Maybe many of us limit our taxes but we provide much more then the average worker. Not only do we spend the same amount if not more then most people that work in the country we stay in but every worker gets a lot of benefits from the country it is working in, medical etc where as digital nomads pay it all themselves. Where as the country a worker resides in has to cover them with certain benefits at a cost to that country, in the case of a digital nomad the country gets a good amount of money spent by the nomad with NO cost/risk to the country at all!!

And this is all well and good, but please don't start bleating on you want the thai government to give you special privileges or visa's

[Soutpeel]

I would like to offer another angle on this a someone who considers themselves to be a digital nomad. I think the definitions that the OP gave are a bit too narrow as there are many kinds of people living in Thailand that should fall into this category that are not young and not programmers or daytime traders.

The digital part of the term in my opinion simply means you make money using a computer, whether you are a programmer or simply send emails and close deals really doesn’t matter in the eyes of the Thai legal system. I would define it as follows:

Any person working remotely and making money outside of Thailand, does not make THB, does not have Thai staff, and does not take anything away from the economy of Thailand.

I have met quite a few people with different kinds of situations that are similar to my own. I have a company in HK and another in Mainland China. I have a legal work permit and visa in China and an office with staff in China. I run the entire operation (with some partners) from Thailand and have for years. I could basically live anywhere so I’m just as much of a digital nomad as some young kid programming.

Now when people suggest that I am doing something wrong because I don’t open a company in Thailand, I find it to be a bit obnoxious as I think it is Thailand who is not giving any of us the ability to do so.

In China you can open a WFOE (wholly foreign owned enterprise) for an investment of $100,000 USD over 2 years. You can get a visa and you are a totally legal entity. You do not need to hire staff and it’s relatively easy to get this done. The result is that thousands of foreigners do this and pay tax.

Thailand needs to update their ancient laws and create a new kind of company that people like me can have to stay in Thailand if they want to handle this problem. If it was similar where the invest capital was $100,000 USD in 2 years, you get only 1 visa, and you cannot make THB, this would be attractive to me and also beneficial to Thailand. The benefits for us are that we have a legal visa and we can prove income to banks in case we want to buy a condo or simply settle in Thailand.

Thailand will make some tax and also have a better idea who is a real tourist or not. I think earlier this year, the “tourist” numbers took a huge hit because Thailand considers Digital Nomads to be tourists and some of them are counted as tourists 6-10 times per year. I am almost 40 and I make a good salary so I can just fly to Cambo for a night when I need to.

Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and say there are people that work hard to get this status and we should not all be treated like unemployed idiots.

You can do exactly what your talking about in Thailand currently and if you set a rep office up you don't need employees

[yellowboat]

To me you're only working in Thailand if you're paid in THB. Those paid in other currencies from offshore sources are not. Makes sense as consulates ask for records of income from outside Thailand when making repeated visa applications, as proof you're not working in Thailand.

You are mistakenly coming from a point of logic and reason. The current, non elected government wants you to pay for living in Thailand. It is just about money and not about the law.

Why are you making this political, the rules were in place long before the most recent coup, so your off topic and obviously don't have a clue about what your talking about

It is political because it is about lively hood of the Thai people. Digital Nomads work in places co-share offices, the pay rent and buy food. The co-shares allow Thais to learn from others as well about Internet business and programming.

I am aware of the law and advicate that true digital nomads leave Thaland for places more suitable for computer programming like Saigon. China does not have these silly laws that Thailand has.

[arrowsdawdle]

Digital nomads? Aren't they those break-dancing walk on their fingers backpacker guys?

[raybal5]

The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.

From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.

The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.

From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.

I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

What an ignorant comment from an aged person coming from a country which is an economic basket case and who thinks IT is a pronoun for a thing. To say that your attitudes and opinions are uninformed and incredibly annoying and insulting is quite an understatement.

Let me critically review your verbal diarrhoea.

"...and try to convince themselves that they have a job." Shows that you have a very limited ability to accept that the world has changed and you are unable to embrace the fact that the traditional job prevalent during your peasant past is not the only type of job there is in the world today.

"They don't offer any benefits to anybody ...." Oh come on Costas, if they offered no benefits to anybody then why do people pay them money for their services? And quite a lot more than you ever earned as well. Or is your mind set on the benefits you can get from your government pension?

" no taxes paid no social security" If Costas actually knew anything he would find that most digital nomads pay taxes in the form of company taxes on their profits. I find this comment amusing coming from a person from Greece, a country that has a massive cash economy and tax avoidance culture. As for social security, there's that peasant pension handout mentality again.

"...pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society." It's people like digital nomads who do the coding for web sites such as TV, and the eCommerce sites that so many people use - have you ever heard of eCommerce Costas? If they offer nothing why do you think they get paid Costas? Let me tell you because clearly you can't figure it out. They get paid because they offer something that people value. As for the global issue, I think perhaps you are pissed off that they can work anywhere in the world with an internet connection but you can only look after goats on your local rocky outcrop. Poor sad Costas.

"...From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money..." Your ignorance is showing Costas - and how many digital nomads do you personally know to have formed this opinion? More than zero? Compared to what you did for a living, they are doing very well indeed financially.

"...I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job...." First of all you old tool, they do have jobs. You seem incapable of understanding that the world has changed and they are doing jobs that never existed when you were young enough to work. Your intolerance of change is both laughable and at the same time, sad. As for them being lazy, what is your evidence of that? Most of them work long hours doing work that you would be incapable of doing and clearly you have zero understanding about. It is complex work with intricacies and technical difficulty that I'm confident that you've never experienced.

So Costas, get back on your donkey and blow the candles out when you leave the room.

Edited October 27, 2014 by raybal5

[JonboyBKK]

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I would like to offer another angle on this a someone who considers themselves to be a digital nomad. I think the definitions that the OP gave are a bit too narrow as there are many kinds of people living in Thailand that should fall into this category that are not young and not programmers or daytime traders.

The digital part of the term in my opinion simply means you make money using a computer, whether you are a programmer or simply send emails and close deals really doesn’t matter in the eyes of the Thai legal system. I would define it as follows:
Any person working remotely and making money outside of Thailand, does not make THB, does not have Thai staff, and does not take anything away from the economy of Thailand.

I have met quite a few people with different kinds of situations that are similar to my own. I have a company in HK and another in Mainland China. I have a legal work permit and visa in China and an office with staff in China. I run the entire operation (with some partners) from Thailand and have for years. I could basically live anywhere so I’m just as much of a digital nomad as some young kid programming.

Now when people suggest that I am doing something wrong because I don’t open a company in Thailand, I find it to be a bit obnoxious as I think it is Thailand who is not giving any of us the ability to do so.

In China you can open a WFOE (wholly foreign owned enterprise) for an investment of $100,000 USD over 2 years. You can get a visa and you are a totally legal entity. You do not need to hire staff and it’s relatively easy to get this done. The result is that thousands of foreigners do this and pay tax.

Thailand needs to update their ancient laws and create a new kind of company that people like me can have to stay in Thailand if they want to handle this problem. If it was similar where the invest capital was $100,000 USD in 2 years, you get only 1 visa, and you cannot make THB, this would be attractive to me and also beneficial to Thailand. The benefits for us are that we have a legal visa and we can prove income to banks in case we want to buy a condo or simply settle in Thailand.

Thailand will make some tax and also have a better idea who is a real tourist or not. I think earlier this year, the “tourist” numbers took a huge hit because Thailand considers Digital Nomads to be tourists and some of them are counted as tourists 6-10 times per year. I am almost 40 and I make a good salary so I can just fly to Cambo for a night when I need to.

Anyway, I just wanted to jump in and say there are people that work hard to get this status and we should not all be treated like unemployed idiots.

You can do exactly what your talking about in Thailand currently and if you set a rep office up you don't need employees

Ahh... good suggestion. I looked into this some time ago but didn't consider a rep office at that time for various reasons. Will look into it again. Rarely do I get an intelligent suggestion on TVF so I thank you for your reply.

[NanLaew]

I would suggest that some "digital nomad" bashers try selling a fake LV on eBay. Hell, let's make it easy. Try selling a real LV on eBay and see what happens. Your account will be limited before you can spell "digital nomad".

...

So that's why you're so upset. Now I understand.

How much do you want for it then?

The fake one I mean.

Nice try.

As someone who buys a lot of stuff online, I am very happy that I can get my money back via multiple channels if the things go sour. You should really give it a try. You can't lose money even if you are a dummy. I say join the digital revolution... you really are missing out on some good bargains.

Or are you a type a person that pays 1000 baht for a blu ray from B2S..... when you can get it from Amazon for 150 baht?

An elite visa customer perhaps?

I am a regular guy who has been working remotely and using email, messaging and internet for a large part of my work for the last 25 years or so. For those here that split semantic hairs claiming that DN's have 'a business' and not 'a job' seem to forget that both of these labels entail WORK. The Thai labour office issues Work Permits, not Business Permits or Job Permits.

But the wonderfully vague wording/translation of the Thai labour office's definition of work, ie. "Exerting effort" does mean that anyone "exerting effort" to make a living whilst in Thailand is essentially working illegally unless they have a WP. Hence the never-ending, noisome but futile clamor for some sort of elevated immigration status.

For the record:

I don't watch DVD's.

I shop almost exclusively on Amazon, eBay and others, having done so for almost 20 years. I have had a PayPal account since they started.

I am on a retirement extension (in Thailand) but still making obscene piles of money on the two or three consultancy jobs that I do each year outside of Thailand... and my home country.

As the consummate International Gypsy, I am not in the least bit envious of or bothered by these new-fangled digital whatsits, especially the silly ones that say they pay their taxes or worse, claim they want to. The ones that bother me are the ones that think they are so essential to the world's (and Thailand's) economy, that they need extra special considerations.

Just do what you do, flying below the radar if required and raking in your millions (of baht). Nobody really cares.

[raybal5]

The first time in my life I heard about digital Nomads was about a month ago when the thread appeared on TVF.

From what I understood from that thread is that digital nomads are mainly young people that have an idea of how to use a computer and try to convince themselves that they have a job.

The don't offer any benefits to anybody, no taxes paid no social security just instead of trying to find a proper job they are pissing around the globe pretending they offer something to society.

From what I understood also they are earning a pittance of money.

I would call them lazy bums and I would advise them to go and get a job.

No. You have it all wrong, I'm afraid. Many of these youngsters are highly skilled, pay taxes and earn good money.

Good luck to them, I say.

No he doesn't have it all wrong there are people who claim to to digital nomads living in who are exactly as Costa's describes

Thanks for clearing that up Soutpeel. So from what you have written, just because SOME people might not fit your definition of digital nomad, then it's quite ok to say that they are all bad, useless, scum.

It's also nice to know that Costas has become the authority source for knowledge on all digital nomads from a month ago when he first heard the term. I am in awe.

Both of your opinions are as ignorantly stupid as the other.

[micmichd]

@Southpeel:

Why register a company if you are a freelancer?

[mrtoad]

@Southpeel:

Why register a company if you are a freelancer?

if you are dong B2B then it's useful to have a registered company.

[JonboyBKK]

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@Southpeel:
Why register a company if you are a freelancer?

For the reasons that I had stated in my post. If you want to be "legal", and you want to get a real visa and prove a source of income in order to buy a condo and get a loan. There are quite a lot of restrictions to what you can do without a legal visa and we have all seen this year, they can change the rule at the drop of a dime so everyone without one risks a new rule like only being able to stay in Thailand for 180 days a year. I don't mean to answer for Southpeel, just stating the reason I see it worth while.

[NanLaew]

@Southpeel:

Why register a company if you are a freelancer?

Not answering for soutpeel but here's my life experience as a (former) one-man-band, freelance consultant.

I was the frequent 'go-to' guy for 3D marine VSP's in the Gulf of Mexico by a major E&P company. First year was great, second year I got punted into the 90-days invoicing band by their accounts payable group. The third year, their HSE group asked me to show >10 years of OHSA accreditation and records that of course didn't exist. Despite the fact that I had all the individual safety and survival credentials for the work involved and had done good work, they started to bleed me with the 3-month payment plan and killed me with the safety nonsense.

Some companies are run by bean counters and safety wonks and can't do squat without talking with their insurers and lawyers. Despite the awesome expertise I brought to their deepwater frontier, I was forced to come under the wing of a 'preferred' agency that just happened to pay less than what I was getting before. I haven't worked GoM since.

[micmichd]

In my case, I already have a retirement visa due to my property and my pensions.

Maybe I'm a workaholic, but I don't feel old enough to sit around at a stone table all day long and wait for my lady to come back from work.

Do I understand correctly that a Digital Bomad is some one who does not need a working permit or a business visa ?

[micmichd]

In my case, I already have a retirement visa due to my property and my pensions.

Maybe I'm a workaholic, but I don't feel old enough to sit around at a stone table all day long and wait for my lady to come back home from work.

Do I understand correctly that a Digital Nomad is someone who does not need a working permit or a business visa ?

[Soutpeel]

@Southpeel:

Why register a company if you are a freelancer?

Not answering for soutpeel but here's my life experience as a (former) one-man-band, freelance consultant.

I was the frequent 'go-to' guy for 3D marine VSP's in the Gulf of Mexico by a major E&P company. First year was great, second year I got punted into the 90-days invoicing band by their accounts payable group. The third year, their HSE group asked me to show >10 years of OHSA accreditation and records that of course didn't exist. Despite the fact that I had all the individual safety and survival credentials for the work involved and had done good work, they started to bleed me with the 3-month payment plan and killed me with the safety nonsense.

Some companies are run by bean counters and safety wonks and can't do squat without talking with their insurers and lawyers. Despite the awesome expertise I brought to their deepwater frontier, I was forced to come under the wing of a 'preferred' agency that just happened to pay less than what I was getting before. I haven't worked GoM since.

I understand what your on about, but you had better explain some of the acronyms and what your are talking about, as if a pikey reads everything you have written on suspects their heads will explode

The fact is though some of the pikeys actually believe the advent of the internet and digital pikery created the freelance business, and fail to realise this has been going on before most of them were a twinkle in their daddys eye.

[mrtoad]

In my case, I already have a retirement visa due to my property and my pensions.

Maybe I'm a workaholic, but I don't feel old enough to sit around at a stone table all day long and wait for my lady to come back from work.

Do I understand correctly that a Digital Bomad is some one who does not need a working permit or a business visa ?

I believe there is a difference between a Digital Nomad and a Digital Pikey.

There are a few that are getting confused, and some that are engaged in Digital Pikery.