Bail request for Koh Tao suspects

[greenchair]

There the defense go again (guardian )find the link yourself. Wah wah wah. The prosecution won't give up the evidence. How hard can it be.

1.Get dna from b2 parents.

2.send to British coroner.

3.ask if any match.

4.if match.make the best story you can and fight accordingly.

5. Oh no match,easy case they are innocent.

It doesn't sound that complicated to me.

Find your own defence evidence.

3 saboteurs. Do not throw away my interesting comment.

And let's not forget, finding out exactly where that hoe came from would be helpful.

[z42]

"The consensus, among social media..." that would be the consensus among people that have no access to the evidence, witnesses or the accused and only rely on, at best, third hand accounts, conflicting press releases and inbred speculation woven together in a fabric of faulty logic.

As I posted earlier.........

"The problem being that the conflicting evidence/statements have all been made at one time or another by the RTP, which really does point to total incompetence IMO".

That is one thing, but the deluge of conspiracies and accusations have consequences, it's not just harmless speculation.

Ppeople are being defamed, for one; there have also been calls for vigilante justice for another and also calls to boycott Koh Tao. Last but not least the families of the victims have unequivocally stated that such speculation has been harmful to them.

Now, in view of the conflicting information, the misinformation, the lack of information and the outright lies surrounding the case what is one to do? I, for one, think the ethical stance is to see what evidence is presented at the trial and how it holds up to scrutiny.

Sounds pretty logical except for the fact that for a fair trial the (at time of writing) innocent persons' defence counsel should be given access to said evidence then they can cast any doubts on how it was obtained prior to it being presented in court.

AleG you seem to hang closely to what the families said, and they said they want to see a FAIR and TRANSPARENT trial. And with prosecutors and UK govt withholding what could be crucial evidence so it can't even be scrutinized before it is seen in court seems to be very unfair and nontransparent don't you think.

You can't have it both ways. The investigation was an absolute disgrace by any standards and by withholding evidence and nullifying the fairness and transparency the trial seems to be going very much the same way as the investigation. Or please can you tell me i'm missing the point, and why. Thank you

[AleG]

That is one thing, but the deluge of conspiracies and accusations have consequences, it's not just harmless speculation.

Ppeople are being defamed, for one; there have also been calls for vigilante justice for another and also calls to boycott Koh Tao. Last but not least the families of the victims have unequivocally stated that such speculation has been harmful to them.

Now, in view of the conflicting information, the misinformation, the lack of information and the outright lies surrounding the case what is one to do? I, for one, think the ethical stance is to see what evidence is presented at the trial and how it holds up to scrutiny.

Sounds pretty logical except for the fact that for a fair trial the (at time of writing) innocent persons' defence counsel should be given access to said evidence then they can cast any doubts on how it was obtained prior to it being presented in court.

AleG you seem to hang closely to what the families said, and they said they want to see a FAIR and TRANSPARENT trial. And with prosecutors and UK govt withholding what could be crucial evidence so it can't even be scrutinized before it is seen in court seems to be very unfair and nontransparent don't you think.

You can't have it both ways. The investigation was an absolute disgrace by any standards and by withholding evidence and nullifying the fairness and transparency the trial seems to be going very much the same way as the investigation. Or please can you tell me i'm missing the point, and why. Thank you

The evidence will be presented in court for the defendants to contest it, if they want to see the results of the UK investigation they should request it, if that is denied without a plausible explanation and or the prosecutors evidence is kept from the defense then we may start talking about an unfair trial. As it is now the trial has just begun and the stage of presenting evidence and witnesses has not been reached yet.

[Expat Girl]

That is one thing, but the deluge of conspiracies and accusations have consequences, it's not just harmless speculation.

Ppeople are being defamed, for one; there have also been calls for vigilante justice for another and also calls to boycott Koh Tao. Last but not least the families of the victims have unequivocally stated that such speculation has been harmful to them.

Now, in view of the conflicting information, the misinformation, the lack of information and the outright lies surrounding the case what is one to do? I, for one, think the ethical stance is to see what evidence is presented at the trial and how it holds up to scrutiny.

Sounds pretty logical except for the fact that for a fair trial the (at time of writing) innocent persons' defence counsel should be given access to said evidence then they can cast any doubts on how it was obtained prior to it being presented in court.

AleG you seem to hang closely to what the families said, and they said they want to see a FAIR and TRANSPARENT trial. And with prosecutors and UK govt withholding what could be crucial evidence so it can't even be scrutinized before it is seen in court seems to be very unfair and nontransparent don't you think.

You can't have it both ways. The investigation was an absolute disgrace by any standards and by withholding evidence and nullifying the fairness and transparency the trial seems to be going very much the same way as the investigation. Or please can you tell me i'm missing the point, and why. Thank you

The evidence will be presented in court for the defendants to contest it, if they want to see the results of the UK investigation they should request it, if that is denied without a plausible explanation and or the prosecutors evidence is kept from the defense then we may start talking about an unfair trial. As it is now the trial has just begun and the stage of presenting evidence and witnesses has not been reached yet.

Spot on, i can imagine a request being made and those pesky UK sources simple saying they cannot interfere with the Thai judicial system, as you say such rebutance will lead to an unfair trial, refreshing to see someone thinking logically that the evidence needs to be shared, either in the UK or here in Thailand, and failure to share will lead to an unjust outcome, thank you.

[boomerangutang]

The defense has asked to get an idea of evidence prior to trial and they've asked to see witness list. The Brits showed Thai officials' evidence to the families, but not to the defense in Thailand. That's strictly within their job description, but it bodes ill for the defendants. But why should Brit authorities care about the defendants? They're not British, they're poor, they're from the bottom level of the social scale, and essentially expendable. Better to stick with protocol, from a Brit perspective. Plus, it's almost certain Thai authorities have indicated to Brits not to share info with the defense. It would fit with the Thai plan of stacking the case against the defendants as much as possible. Our friends with the stiff upper lips wouldn't want to ruffle feathers with Thai officialdom, would they? The same Thai officials who are very rich and at the apex of the social ladder.

[z42]

That is one thing, but the deluge of conspiracies and accusations have consequences, it's not just harmless speculation.

Ppeople are being defamed, for one; there have also been calls for vigilante justice for another and also calls to boycott Koh Tao. Last but not least the families of the victims have unequivocally stated that such speculation has been harmful to them.

Now, in view of the conflicting information, the misinformation, the lack of information and the outright lies surrounding the case what is one to do? I, for one, think the ethical stance is to see what evidence is presented at the trial and how it holds up to scrutiny.

Sounds pretty logical except for the fact that for a fair trial the (at time of writing) innocent persons' defence counsel should be given access to said evidence then they can cast any doubts on how it was obtained prior to it being presented in court.

AleG you seem to hang closely to what the families said, and they said they want to see a FAIR and TRANSPARENT trial. And with prosecutors and UK govt withholding what could be crucial evidence so it can't even be scrutinized before it is seen in court seems to be very unfair and nontransparent don't you think.

You can't have it both ways. The investigation was an absolute disgrace by any standards and by withholding evidence and nullifying the fairness and transparency the trial seems to be going very much the same way as the investigation. Or please can you tell me i'm missing the point, and why. Thank you

The evidence will be presented in court for the defendants to contest it, if they want to see the results of the UK investigation they should request it, if that is denied without a plausible explanation and or the prosecutors evidence is kept from the defense then we may start talking about an unfair trial. As it is now the trial has just begun and the stage of presenting evidence and witnesses has not been reached yet.

Yes but that is too late for a fair defence to be mounted, preparation time is needed. Several reports have emerged in the press stating that the prosecutor's report is 800 pages long, others have reported that the report is 900.

So let's say that if it is at the lower estimate, 800 pages long, surely it is incredibly unfair when the evidence dossier given to the defence team is 6 pages long. 6 and 800 is a massive discrepancy that no rational person can argue. It is not even 1% which in itself is pretty shocking.

Then if we are talking about fairness, the prosecutor was given the prosecution files by the police on 4 different occasions over a period of around 6 weeks. Each time the prosecutor told the police to get more / better quality evidence. This seems highly irregular because it seems like they only wanted to prosecute the men in custody at any cost regardless of how credible the evidence was at any time. There was never seemingly a person in the prosecutor's office that said "look elsewhere" despite people in the prosecutor's office saying "your evidence isn't strong enough to proceed to trial".

However when Nomsod did the DNA test in Bangkok the police chief stated categorically that the investigation was complete. And also the "perfect case" was a mistranslation of a "complete case".

All these different personnel in high positions gave vastly different versions of the state of the investigation at times that seemingly conflicted with each other.

And to my mind there was never a valid, fair reason given by the court to bring the trial 2 months ahead of time. When the suspects are looking at a death sentence I am pretty certain they would happily bite the bullet and stay locked up for that extra couple of months so their defence team could properly and fully defend them. Could you give a valid reason for bringing forward the trial date that is fair to the defendants and the defence team? If so I would LOVE to hear it.

If you need any links for anything i've posted, do ask. If you want to be diligent and look yourself i'd very much recommend doing so. Cheers

[AleG]

The evidence will be presented in court for the defendants to contest it, if they want to see the results of the UK investigation they should request it, if that is denied without a plausible explanation and or the prosecutors evidence is kept from the defense then we may start talking about an unfair trial. As it is now the trial has just begun and the stage of presenting evidence and witnesses has not been reached yet.

Yes but that is too late for a fair defence to be mounted, preparation time is needed. Several reports have emerged in the press stating that the prosecutor's report is 800 pages long, others have reported that the report is 900.

So let's say that if it is at the lower estimate, 800 pages long, surely it is incredibly unfair when the evidence dossier given to the defence team is 6 pages long. 6 and 800 is a massive discrepancy that no rational person can argue. It is not even 1% which in itself is pretty shocking.

Then if we are talking about fairness, the prosecutor was given the prosecution files by the police on 4 different occasions over a period of around 6 weeks. Each time the prosecutor told the police to get more / better quality evidence. This seems highly irregular because it seems like they only wanted to prosecute the men in custody at any cost regardless of how credible the evidence was at any time. There was never seemingly a person in the prosecutor's office that said "look elsewhere" despite people in the prosecutor's office saying "your evidence isn't strong enough to proceed to trial".

However when Nomsod did the DNA test in Bangkok the police chief stated categorically that the investigation was complete. And also the "perfect case" was a mistranslation of a "complete case".

All these different personnel in high positions gave vastly different versions of the state of the investigation at times that seemingly conflicted with each other.

And to my mind there was never a valid, fair reason given by the court to bring the trial 2 months ahead of time. When the suspects are looking at a death sentence I am pretty certain they would happily bite the bullet and stay locked up for that extra couple of months so their defence team could properly and fully defend them. Could you give a valid reason for bringing forward the trial date that is fair to the defendants and the defence team? If so I would LOVE to hear it.

If you need any links for anything i've posted, do ask. If you want to be diligent and look yourself i'd very much recommend doing so. Cheers

The issue with the time and manner of presenting the evidence is, to my understanding, how the process works in Thailand. I am not a legal expert in Thai law or court proceedings, but according to this "

Thai law does not permit extensive U.S. style pre-trial discovery. Indeed, very little discovery is permitted or occurs"; if that is the normal procedure why should it be changed for this case in particular?

The evidence and testimony will be presented and in all probability the case will continue for months if not years as there will surely be an appeal if the defendants are found guilty; I think there is going to be plenty of time for the evidence to be examined.

I don't quite see how the sending back of the case to strengthen it would necessarily imply the need to change the direction of the case; for example the prosecution could receive a DNA report and send it back asking for further details, even if they see the results to support their case, so that the prosecution would not just have the end report but the manner of taking the samples, were where they processed, what analysis method was employed and so on and so forth; let's be honest, crossing all the Ts and dotting all the Is doesn't come naturally around here. It wouldn't mean that the prosecution sees the evidence as insufficient and new venues must be explored, it just means that they want to have all their ducks in a row when it is time to present the evidence in court, it would be rather embarrassing that, following that example, the defense asks were the samples were done and the prosecution doesn't have an answer ready.

As for the change on the date, does it make a significant difference seeing that the parties need to wait until the beginning of the trial for the evidence and testimony to be first introduced to the defense and the prosecution?

Yes, more time would give the defense more chance to find exculpatory evidence and testimony, but as I said, the case is sure to go on for months and the defense will probably be in a better position to know were to look for what they need after the prosecution evidence and testimony is presented.

Lets say, hypothetically, the prosecution presents a witness that was at X place at Y hour, then the defense can narrow their search for another witness that was also present at the same general location and time, or one that discredits the first witness. Of course you may argue that puts the defense at a disadvantage but the prosecution has the same handicap, if the defense presents a witness to support their case at trial time then the prosecution will have to deal with the new situation as it unfolds.

This is all, of course, related to the "very limited discovery permitted" system, you may argue it's not the best system (and I may agree) but that's how it is in Thailand, should all previous and current cases be deemed not fair and transparent because of that?

Personally, I would wait to see how events develop before I can judge the proceedings not fair or transparent.

[greenchair]

There the defense go again (guardian )find the link yourself. Wah wah wah. The prosecution won't give up the evidence. How hard can it be.

1.Get dna from b2 parents.

2.send to British coroner.

3.ask if any match.

4.if match.make the best story you can and fight accordingly.

5. Oh no match,easy case they are innocent.

It doesn't sound that complicated to me.

Find your own defence evidence.

3 saboteurs. Do not throw away my interesting comment.

Finally the defense is fighting fire with fire. I see in another article that we cannot name.

It says the defense will be calling foreign witnesses. I hope on the top of the list is the British coroner. At least his report will be extensive and acurate. Not sure if b2 are guilty in part of this or not. I am sure they did not act alone. The British coroner evidence will show that. Hell they should go all out and call in the brit police who came here. They can ask many interesting questions in the court. The cops and the coroner must answer.

About time defense team.find your own evidence.

Edited December 16, 2014 by greenchair

[BoristheBlade]

The fight back begins.

Fight fire with fire.

Get the British police, David's friends, Hannah's friends, The British Ambassador to Bangkok, the Headman, Mon, Nomsod, get them all in the witness box.

The Thai's have stated this is going to be a fair and open trial

SHOW THAT IT IS!

Release all press restrictions and ALLOW THE WORLDS PRESS TO REPORT THIS TRIAL

There the defense go again (guardian )find the link yourself. Wah wah wah. The prosecution won't give up the evidence. How hard can it be.

1.Get dna from b2 parents.
2.send to British coroner.
3.ask if any match.
4.if match.make the best story you can and fight accordingly.
5. Oh no match,easy case they are innocent.
It doesn't sound that complicated to me.
Find your own defence evidence.
3 saboteurs. Do not throw away my interesting comment.

Finally the defense is fighting fire with fire. I see in another article that we cannot name.
It says the defense will be calling foreign witnesses. I hope on the top of the list is the British coroner. At least his report will be extensive and acurate. Not sure if b2 are guilty in part of this or not. I am sure they did not act alone. The British coroner evidence will show that. Hell they should go all out and call in the brit police who came here. They can ask many interesting questions in the court. The cops and the coroner must answer.
About time defense team.find your own evidence.

[greenchair]

That's right Boris. Fight fire with fire. Stand up defense team. Thousands upon thousands support you all for the truth. No matter how ugly. There must be truth for hannah and David. Truth for the b2.

Call in the English coroner.

Call in the British police.

[greenchair]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

[jdinasia]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

[greenchair]

Actually,even if they are guilty, it is tragic for them and their family. 21 years old.

But even more tragic is if they are innocent. Yes,they do get to go home. Damaged forever.

[jdinasia]

Actually,even if they are guilty, it is tragic for them and their family. 21 years old.

But even more tragic is if they are innocent. Yes,they do get to go home. Damaged forever.

Far less damaged than the other 2 young people. If they are guilty they deserve their fate.

[Gweiloman]

@jdinaisa, AleG, JTJ

I've asked once before, don't recall getting a reply so I'll ask again.

Why are you guys defending the RTP / prosecution case so, so, so very much against practically every poster on the board? It goes beyond natural instinct and reaction for impartial observers with non-vested interests. Pretty much every one of your posts the last couple of days have been on related threads (according to TV search function).

Are you so incensed by conspiracy theories that you have taken it upon yourselves to crusade against it?

Any logical and sane thinking person can see that the amount of arguments that you guys are putting up are completely beyond normal reason. Not only that but it has become extremely annoying (though sadly within TV rules). I will wager that never in the history of TV have the same posters been put on ignore lists by so many other posters is so short a time.

Whatever your reasons or intentions may be, I fear that they will only have the opposite reaction to that you desire.

[greenchair]

Actually,even if they are guilty, it is tragic for them and their family. 21 years old.

But even more tragic is if they are innocent. Yes,they do get to go home. Damaged forever.

Far less damaged than the other 2 young people. If they are guilty they deserve their fate.

If not guilty, they did not deserve any of this. Getting back to the topic.

There is enough doubt in this case, that bail with heavy restrictions should be granted. The Burmese government and embassy themselves said they would supervise the pair. The Burmese government themselves were prepared to put up the bail money.

The only way to solve this is to have the British coroner come to give evidence. For the defense.

[xylophone]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Quote jdinasia “If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home”.

This is the stance that you regularly post and fall back on whenever the trial is mentioned and it must please you because of your connections with the RTP.

What goes against the grain for many posters, I believe, is your total disregard for the facts as they currently are and I won't go over them again in detail because I have already listed them in other posts.

However in summary, the police statements are totally contradictory from one day to the next and really don't show any professionalism in this line of work, or indeed know-how or common sense; Thailand's chief forensic officer, Dr Porntip has labelled the investigation a faulty mess (in so many words) and if you ever wanted proof of the "honesty" of the RTP, then just look at the many recent articles regarding corruption in their ranks, and of course this; "The Office of the Ombudsman Thailand has reported its success over the past 12 years, saying the Royal Thai Police has been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand”.

Yet you post as if these Burmese guys are going to get a fair trial and if found innocent, they get to go home.

This is an absolute nonsense, as they have to be found guilty because of all that has gone on and all of the mouths that have opened in support of the police work, which in itself is a joke.

However this is Thailand and you have been here many years and know full well the routine with regards to cases like this, yet you still refuse to see what is as plain as the nose on your face, because of your attachment.

Such bias does not make you an informed contributor.

[mojorison]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Well technically they have to prove their guilt... not the other way around as you would so dearly hope for, (because we all know where your true interests lie!) In the real world, the defendant does not have to prove their innocence. The prosecution has to prove their guilt. It is vastly different.

[jdinasia]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Quote jdinasia “If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home”.

This is the stance that you regularly post and fall back on whenever the trial is mentioned and it must please you because of your connections with the RTP.

What goes against the grain for many posters, I believe, is your total disregard for the facts as they currently are and I won't go over them again in detail because I have already listed them in other posts.

However in summary, the police statements are totally contradictory from one day to the next and really don't show any professionalism in this line of work, or indeed know-how or common sense; Thailand's chief forensic officer, Dr Porntip has labelled the investigation a faulty mess (in so many words) and if you ever wanted proof of the "honesty" of the RTP, then just look at the many recent articles regarding corruption in their ranks, and of course this; "The Office of the Ombudsman Thailand has reported its success over the past 12 years, saying the Royal Thai Police has been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand”.

Yet you post as if these Burmese guys are going to get a fair trial and if found innocent, they get to go home.

This is an absolute nonsense, as they have to be found guilty because of all that has gone on and all of the mouths that have opened in support of the police work, which in itself is a joke.

However this is Thailand and you have been here many years and know full well the routine with regards to cases like this, yet you still refuse to see what is as plain as the nose on your face, because of your attachment.

Such bias does not make you an informed contributor.

Let's talk about your "facts".

First,

We don't know all the evidence but all the conspiracy theorists are going from is supposition.

Second,

I have no connection to the RTP other than having a few casual friends that are police. (posted in educational positions)

Third, you are misrepresenting what Khunying Pornthip said.

Fourth,

You are conflating the RTP and the courts in your argument. They are not the same.

[jdinasia]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Well technically they have to prove their guilt... not the other way around as you would so dearly hope for, (because we all know where your true interests lie!) In the real world, the defendant does not have to prove their innocence. The prosecution has to prove their guilt. It is vastly different.

Oh? Where do my "real interests lie?"

[xylophone]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Quote jdinasia “If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home”.

This is the stance that you regularly post and fall back on whenever the trial is mentioned and it must please you because of your connections with the RTP.

What goes against the grain for many posters, I believe, is your total disregard for the facts as they currently are and I won't go over them again in detail because I have already listed them in other posts.

However in summary, the police statements are totally contradictory from one day to the next and really don't show any professionalism in this line of work, or indeed know-how or common sense; Thailand's chief forensic officer, Dr Porntip has labelled the investigation a faulty mess (in so many words) and if you ever wanted proof of the "honesty" of the RTP, then just look at the many recent articles regarding corruption in their ranks, and of course this; "The Office of the Ombudsman Thailand has reported its success over the past 12 years, saying the Royal Thai Police has been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand”.

Yet you post as if these Burmese guys are going to get a fair trial and if found innocent, they get to go home.

This is an absolute nonsense, as they have to be found guilty because of all that has gone on and all of the mouths that have opened in support of the police work, which in itself is a joke.

However this is Thailand and you have been here many years and know full well the routine with regards to cases like this, yet you still refuse to see what is as plain as the nose on your face, because of your attachment.

Such bias does not make you an informed contributor.

Let's talk about your "facts".

First,

We don't know all the evidence but all the conspiracy theorists are going from is supposition.

Second,

I have no connection to the RTP other than having a few casual friends that are police. (posted in educational positions)

Third, you are misrepresenting what Khunying Pornthip said.

Fourth,

You are conflating the RTP and the courts in your argument. They are not the same.

Quote jdinasia. Let's talk about your "facts".

First,

We don't know all the evidence but all the conspiracy theorists are going from is supposition.

The facts are that the documented releases from the RTP show complete inconsistency from one day to the next.

Second,

I have no connection to the RTP other than having a few casual friends that are police. (posted in educational positions).

Fact: you do have a connection with the RTP.

Third, you are misrepresenting what Khunying Pornthip said.

What part of Dr Porntips comments don't you understand. In anyone's language she is saying it is a mess. In fact she said it was DESTROYED on the first day, even more damning.

Fact; “Dr.Porntip has already been critical of the police investigation into the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, and the double rape of Hannah saying the investigation was destroyed on the first day.

She said the crime scene was interfered with. Potential suspects were allowed to trample over the site, and police failed to bring in an independent forensic pathologist”.

Fourth, You are conflating the RTP and the courts in your argument. They are not the same.

Fact: corruption is endemic in Thailand and it reaches from the top to the very bottom.

[greenchair]

Actually,even if they are guilty, it is tragic for them and their family. 21 years old.

But even more tragic is if they are innocent. Yes,they do get to go home. Damaged forever.

Far less damaged than the other 2 young people. If they are guilty they deserve their fate.

If not guilty, they did not deserve any of this. Getting back to the topic.

There is enough doubt in this case, that bail with heavy restrictions should be granted. The Burmese government and embassy themselves said they would supervise the pair. The Burmese government themselves were prepared to put up the bail money.

The only way to solve this is to have the British coroner come to give evidence. For the defense.

Yes, I agree. The b2 most certainly should be allowed restricted bail.

And there is no reason why the British coroner could not be skyped into the court room for the defense to get the information they need to defend themselves. Namely, David was not killed by the hoe.

Guilty or not. We want the truth

[jdinasia]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Quote jdinasia “If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home”.

This is the stance that you regularly post and fall back on whenever the trial is mentioned and it must please you because of your connections with the RTP.

What goes against the grain for many posters, I believe, is your total disregard for the facts as they currently are and I won't go over them again in detail because I have already listed them in other posts.

However in summary, the police statements are totally contradictory from one day to the next and really don't show any professionalism in this line of work, or indeed know-how or common sense; Thailand's chief forensic officer, Dr Porntip has labelled the investigation a faulty mess (in so many words) and if you ever wanted proof of the "honesty" of the RTP, then just look at the many recent articles regarding corruption in their ranks, and of course this; "The Office of the Ombudsman Thailand has reported its success over the past 12 years, saying the Royal Thai Police has been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand”.

Yet you post as if these Burmese guys are going to get a fair trial and if found innocent, they get to go home.

This is an absolute nonsense, as they have to be found guilty because of all that has gone on and all of the mouths that have opened in support of the police work, which in itself is a joke.

However this is Thailand and you have been here many years and know full well the routine with regards to cases like this, yet you still refuse to see what is as plain as the nose on your face, because of your attachment.

Such bias does not make you an informed contributor.

Let's talk about your "facts".

First,

We don't know all the evidence but all the conspiracy theorists are going from is supposition.

Second,

I have no connection to the RTP other than having a few casual friends that are police. (posted in educational positions)

Third, you are misrepresenting what Khunying Pornthip said.

Fourth,

You are conflating the RTP and the courts in your argument. They are not the same.

Quote jdinasia. Let's talk about your "facts".

First,

We don't know all the evidence but all the conspiracy theorists are going from is supposition.

The facts are that the documented releases from the RTP show complete inconsistency from one day to the next.

Second,

I have no connection to the RTP other than having a few casual friends that are police. (posted in educational positions).

Fact: you do have a connection with the RTP.

Third, you are misrepresenting what Khunying Pornthip said.

What part of Dr Porntips comments don't you understand. In anyone's language she is saying it is a mess. In fact she said it was DESTROYED on the first day, even more damning.

Fact; “Dr.Porntip has already been critical of the police investigation into the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller, and the double rape of Hannah saying the investigation was destroyed on the first day.

She said the crime scene was interfered with. Potential suspects were allowed to trample over the site, and police failed to bring in an independent forensic pathologist”.

Fourth, You are conflating the RTP and the courts in your argument. They are not the same.

Fact: corruption is endemic in Thailand and it reaches from the top to the very bottom.

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

[CharlieH]

Specific members ARE NOT the topic of conversation here, nor should they be. stay on topic, discuss/debate the topic NOT the posters.

Posts discussing other members have been removed.

[xylophone]

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Edited December 18, 2014 by xylophone

[jdinasia]

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Congrats, you are the only expat I know outside of a few in Pattaya, that doesn't know any police here. ( BTW my connections are all military not police)

Sadly Khunying Pornthip is discredited. I know her and she is pretty awesome, but she also backed the efficacy of the GT200'S in a forensic role.

I have said from the beginning that the investigation is flawed, but I don't believe it is fatally flawed....

I'll get back to you on the quotes, but the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link.

[sambum]

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Congrats, you are the only expat I know outside of a few in Pattaya, that doesn't know any police here. ( BTW my connections are all military not police)

Sadly Khunying Pornthip is discredited. I know her and she is pretty awesome, but she also backed the efficacy of the GT200'S in a forensic role.

I have said from the beginning that the investigation is flawed, but I don't believe it is fatally flawed....

I'll get back to you on the quotes, but the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link.

" Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to."

Bravo, Xylophone - my sentiments entirely! I have been living here for quite a few years and neither I or any of my ex pat friends (that I know of) know, or have any connections with the police, and like yourself, don't want to.

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Absolutely ridiculous statement to assume that to live in Thailand you need to know some police officers.

[xylophone]

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Congrats, you are the only expat I know outside of a few in Pattaya, that doesn't know any police here. ( BTW my connections are all military not police)

Sadly Khunying Pornthip is discredited. I know her and she is pretty awesome, but she also backed the efficacy of the GT200'S in a forensic role.

I have said from the beginning that the investigation is flawed, but I don't believe it is fatally flawed....

I'll get back to you on the quotes, but the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link.

No, don't bother to get back to me on anything as it is just not worth my time, and I will have to do what many others have done and put you on the ignore button.

You state here that, "my connections are all military not police", Yet a few posts back you state, "other than having a few casual friends that are police"..........So which is it.......which one is the lie?

To blithely state that Dr Porntip is discredited because of her support for the GT 200s shows your lack of ability to see past one mistake, and to not acknowledge her distinguished career because you need to support your case in this matter (pitiful)..........

This from Wiki on Dr Porntip.

“During the Thaksin Shinawatra government, she repeatedly publicly accused the police of abuses.

After the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, Pornthip supervised the effort to identify the tsunami victims in the Phang Nga region. She and her team were widely praised for their hard work and dedication.

Her life story and her work in Phang Nga were documented in the 2004 National Geographic documentary Crime Scene Bangkok.

In April 2010, she was appointed to the Center for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation or CRES (previously known as the Center for the Administration of Public Order), a military organization charged with maintaining peace and order within Bangkok and the surrounding provinces during the massive anti-government protests in 2010.

Pornthip's autobiography, which details her life and most prominent cases, has been translated into English and available through Amazon at. In the book, Pornthip reiterates problems with state authorities in obtaining justice for those subject to injustice, a theme carried throughout the book”.

On 20 June 2014, media reports stated that Ponthip was recently ordered by Thailand's ruling junta to take over the Thai Forensics Institute and to "make a clean sweep" in reorganizing it.

Yes she was a supporter of the now discredited GT 200 “bomb detector” as were the Thai Army, RTP, Air Force, customs and other countries such as Mexico and India, but I would trust her judgement (as do the Thai public) over the corrupt RTP any day.

And finally/laughably you state that "the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link"..........and you know full well that certain links cannot be published here and I have already pointed you in the direction of some information which supports the woeful handling of this case, but according to you, you can't read it because I haven't published the links. Now how narrow-minded and stupid is that!

As I said, read all of the RTP reports from day one and see just what a complete and utter shambles this whole thing is, and there is absolutely no hope of a fair trial for these two poor unfortunates.

Finally, as I said previously, don't bother to get back to me because I will apply a well-known saying that I believe applies to you: –

“There are none so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see”.

[AGareth2]

Today I had a thought for the 2 young 21 year old boys who should be at home with their families. Their lives have really been destroyed.

The ones that should be at home with their families are not the men on trial . They are on trial for murder. Instead it is the victims your thoughts should be for. If the defendants are found innocent then they get to go home.

Well technically they have to prove their guilt... not the other way around as you would so dearly hope for, (because we all know where your true interests lie!) In the real world, the defendant does not have to prove their innocence. The prosecution has to prove their guilt. It is vastly different.

Oh? Where do my "real interests lie?"

Increasing your post count it would seem

[sambum]

Quote jdinasia..........

LOL

Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers.

Fact : I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here,

Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption.

In other words, it is a zero sum argument.

Not very convincing.......

Quote jdinasia: “Fact : no connection to the RTP more than most long-term expats. I can only assume you don't live in Thailand if you know no police officers”.

Wrong on a couple of counts. Firstly you are wrong about me not living here because I do, and secondly on your assumption that if I lived here I would know some police officers………you are wrong again because I don't know any, nor would I want to.

Quote jdinasia. “Fact: I can't find the source of your quote about the rather discredited Khunying Pornthip, but I suspect it is from Andrew Drummond, who we can't use here”

A very weak argument indeed and I will list some other sources below, however just because it appeared in one of the capitals top newspapers, or has been quoted by Andrew Drummond, whose material we can't quote here, doesn't mean to say that you can't look it up for yourself, now does it?

Others with reference to Dr Porntip include: –

http://www.irrawaddy...estigation.html or http://www.schoenes-thailand.at/mordfall-koh-tao-porntip-kritisiert-unprofessionelle-ermittlungen/ or http://time.com/3487462/thailand-koh-tao-murders-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-zaw-lin-win-zaw-htun/

And: “Police botched every forensic stage of the investigation so badly that it cannot be un-botched, starting with contamination of the crime scene through to DNA tests,” it said.

“It is the opinion of world-renowned forensic expert Porntip Rojanasunan, appointed as the country’s top forensic investigator by (junta leader and Prime Minister) Gen [Chan-ocha] Prayuth, personally.

The public believes Dr Porntip.” http://www.mizzima.com/mizzima-news/regional/item/13709-koh-tao-murders-retraction-denied-say-thai-police

Quote jdinasia: “Fact: if in your conflating of the RTP and the courts you insist on endemic corruption from top to bottom; then the logical result is that if the defendants are acquitted it is because of corruption”.

“In other words, it is a zero sum argument”.

Another flaw in what is a poor argument all round. If the defendants are found guilty then money changing hands could have influenced the result. If they are found not guilty, then obviously enough money wasn't paid.

Now a suggestion for you: – go back and review all of the police statements from day one and read them carefully and see how they contradict one another (take your time because there are a lot of them); then look at the photographs of the crime scene and how just about all and sundry were allowed to walk over it; then look at the “crime re-enactment” and finally look at Doctor Porntip’s comments on any website you wish, and if you still believe that the RTP have done a good job, then everyone who posts here will know that you do not have an objective viewpoint.

Q E D.

Congrats, you are the only expat I know outside of a few in Pattaya, that doesn't know any police here. ( BTW my connections are all military not police)

Sadly Khunying Pornthip is discredited. I know her and she is pretty awesome, but she also backed the efficacy of the GT200'S in a forensic role.

I have said from the beginning that the investigation is flawed, but I don't believe it is fatally flawed....

I'll get back to you on the quotes, but the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link.

No, don't bother to get back to me on anything as it is just not worth my time, and I will have to do what many others have done and put you on the ignore button.

You state here that, "my connections are all military not police", Yet a few posts back you state, "other than having a few casual friends that are police"..........So which is it.......which one is the lie?

To blithely state that Dr Porntip is discredited because of her support for the GT 200s shows your lack of ability to see past one mistake, and to not acknowledge her distinguished career because you need to support your case in this matter (pitiful)..........

This from Wiki on Dr Porntip.

“During the Thaksin Shinawatra government, she repeatedly publicly accused the police of abuses.

After the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, Pornthip supervised the effort to identify the tsunami victims in the Phang Nga region. She and her team were widely praised for their hard work and dedication.

Her life story and her work in Phang Nga were documented in the 2004 National Geographic documentary Crime Scene Bangkok.

In April 2010, she was appointed to the Center for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation or CRES (previously known as the Center for the Administration of Public Order), a military organization charged with maintaining peace and order within Bangkok and the surrounding provinces during the massive anti-government protests in 2010.

Pornthip's autobiography, which details her life and most prominent cases, has been translated into English and available through Amazon at. In the book, Pornthip reiterates problems with state authorities in obtaining justice for those subject to injustice, a theme carried throughout the book”.

On 20 June 2014, media reports stated that Ponthip was recently ordered by Thailand's ruling junta to take over the Thai Forensics Institute and to "make a clean sweep" in reorganizing it.

Yes she was a supporter of the now discredited GT 200 “bomb detector” as were the Thai Army, RTP, Air Force, customs and other countries such as Mexico and India, but I would trust her judgement (as do the Thai public) over the corrupt RTP any day.

And finally/laughably you state that "the onus is on the person posting the quote to provide the link"..........and you know full well that certain links cannot be published here and I have already pointed you in the direction of some information which supports the woeful handling of this case, but according to you, you can't read it because I haven't published the links. Now how narrow-minded and stupid is that!

As I said, read all of the RTP reports from day one and see just what a complete and utter shambles this whole thing is, and there is absolutely no hope of a fair trial for these two poor unfortunates.

Finally, as I said previously, don't bother to get back to me because I will apply a well-known saying that I believe applies to you: –

“There are none so deaf as those that will not hear. None so blind as those that will not see”.

" ......rather discredited Khunying Pornthip," Doesn't sound "rather discredited" to me, and obviously a lot of people who are far better qualified than me to assess her capabilities, as per the instances detailed above.