Multi-country tourist visas stalled over security worries

[baboon]

Quote

"Thailand has good prospects to be a regional hub for tourism."

This doesn't seem to be the case at present

Hub, meaning the point of arrival. Thailand will always get the landing fees of all visitors to the Mekong region. Unless of course these other countries have several billion dollars hanging around to build an international airport that can accommodate the worlds SE Asian bound aircraft. Plus the infrastructure that is needed to go with it.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

I met a young Belgian who was off to tour Myanmar. She flew Amsterdam - Guangzhou - Yangon, no need to even transit Bangkok.

Of course that is just one example, but I can see other similar routes opening in the years to come, especially with Myanmar opening up more...

[upena]

The problem is Thailand doesn't play well with others.

[BernieOnTour]

Personally I think ASEAN is a waste of time, it won't pass the initial stress test. Besides, some countries will fair better than others.

Thailand for example has a lot to lose, since most employers want hard-working English-speaking employees, without attitude, and a strong work ethic, something which is apparently lacking in the country. Many I have spoken to want people from the Philippines, as they tick all the boxes.

Mhm... the good ones already picked up by Arabs, Singapore, Malaysia,..., as OFW and left that desaster named Philippines.

What's left, unless they are not working for a MNC in Phils, is mainly the crap. IMHO the service quality and competence in Thailand is in average higher than in Phils - the only advantage for Phils is their command of (spoken) English.

[BernieOnTour]

Quote

"Thailand has good prospects to be a regional hub for tourism."

This doesn't seem to be the case at present

Hub, meaning the point of arrival. Thailand will always get the landing fees of all visitors to the Mekong region. Unless of course these other countries have several billion dollars hanging around to build an international airport that can accommodate the worlds SE Asian bound aircraft. Plus the infrastructure that is needed to go with it.

What about: Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, HCM, Guangzhou,..., ?

[Arkady]

I think that they are worried of loosing Visa fee money to other countries and security worries is BS.

You are right. After the original proposal in 2013 it was reported in the media that the Thai government had objected to the proposal on grounds the visa fees that would be lost. The security concern was not mentioned that time.

[MaxLee]

Thailand's government officials hate their neighbors. How dare "they mention about sharing the revenue exploited in their complex Visa rules....

[SunsetT]

This must be a problem for other countries.

After the incident n Sydney didn't the PM talk up how secure LoS is with the careful monitoring of all people entering and leaving ?

Sydney had nothing to do with tourism. The shooter was not a tourist, I think he was an Australian resident with a criminal record and mental health issues.

[BritTim]

As I understand it, the Acmecs (Single Entry visa for Cambodia and Thailand) is worthless for almost everyone. First, it does not save visa fees. The way it operates, is that you must pay on entry to the country whose embassy you did not use to apply for the visa. This means, say you applied at a Cambodian embassy, that on entry to Thailand you must queue up in the visa on arrival lane to pay your 1,000 baht. Further, if you are in Thailand and leave for a short visit to Cambodia, the visa is no longer valid for your return to Thailand. The only saving is a bit of space in your passport. This is sad, as it could be very convenient if it provided what it sounds like it provides.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

I think that they are worried of loosing Visa fee money to other countries and security worries is BS.

I have to agree with you 100% there, although i know many will not

Many people can and do enter Thailand on 30 day visa exempt entries that cost nothing and there was a period when Chinese tourists got visas for free, so your worry about losing visa fee money doesn't seem to be a major concern of the authorities, just one more baseless farang fantasy projecting their thinking onto Thais.

From 9 August to 8 November 2014, holders of Chinese and Taiwanese passports will be exempt from paying fees for tourist visas to Thailand. The short-term move was implemented by the National Council of Peace & Order (NCPO) as part of a series of measures to revive the Thai tourism in the second half of 2014.

Still many people out there that needs a visa to visit Thailand, and many stay longer than 30 days. Have you ever been to a Thai consulate or Embassy and observed the amount of business we are talking about? Baseless Farang! that's your own opinion.

Edited December 21, 2014 by HiSoLowSoNoSo

[JDGRUEN]

But NOT -- a simple set of talks between neighboring - Mekong area countries cannot take place without the problem of eventual AEC-ASEAN coming into play... It is the ELEPHANT in the ROOM.. .

Frankly for South East Asia and the greater region this AEC - ASEAN thing is a solution waiting for a problem... And this particular OP is just a small part of all that... And the bigger issues hinders common sense solutions - because of the greater specter of the total program of AEC-ASEAN hanging over every sub aspect - even if it only involves a few neighboring countries.

It is just hype and propaganda with each country trying to show how gracious they want to be - but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they cannot do it... I really do not see any particular benefits in such a complex approach... Why not set a simple standard for reciprocal trade and visa accommodations each with the other - one at a time - irrespective of the others - but with some eye towards a common standard that MAY come about some day.

AEC - ASEAN is an unnecessary and unneeded approach - over reaching in most every aspect and complicating issues that could be solved directly other ways -- and is 20 years ahead of its time -- if not 40 years...

All the window dressing and the cooperative touting is a waste of time and energy... Just throw it all out and start with simple one on one negotiations for smoothed out trade, commerce and visa entrances and exits for the region one neighbor at a time.

All the add ons of AEC - ASEAN is coloring the issue of Visas -- such as migrant labor easily crossing the border hinders other discussions as it is an eventual job killer of the everyday Thai citizen who is led to believe it would only be the lowest of labor jobs when eventually it will reach ALL other levels and cause wide spread unemployment 3 to 5 years after implementation among office workers, technical workers, engineers and more... it is called the Creep Factor... 'The Camel's Nose under the tent'.

Free unhindered movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country and is a silly fantasy that some people ignorant of history - including recent history bathe in ... Just look at the migrant invasion into the U.K. Just look at the Hispanic - Mexican - Central American migratory invasion of the USA...

If anyone does not look at these two examples and see a big set of problems then that person is blind ... Thailand does not need to create problems by imitating the EU -- problems that will come

Forget the area or regional talks -- sit down and talk with Cambodia -- then later sit down and have private talks with Laos, etc., etc. Regional - highly advertised talks only bring on bouts of posturing and not much more.

[bapoboy]

Quote

"Thailand has good prospects to be a regional hub for tourism."

This doesn't seem to be the case at present

thailand is and has long been a hub for both tourists and transit countries, are you awake or what?

[bapoboy]

Creating a Schengen-style visa for ASEAN is simply not going to happen. ASEAN is NOT the European Union.

The governments of the countries in ASEAN want to keep their borders, each government is refusing to hand out any power or controls it has over it's own country. Remember, if you scrap your borders and become one area of united countries, well, the seperate governments in those countries start to lose power and control. In Europe, because it is united, it has Brussels, and countries agree that rules that come out of Brussels will be follwed by everybody. We all know that ASEAN will never have a place similar to Brussels.

Can anyone imagine, ASEAN picks a city, say Hanoi. And they all send their representatives to Hanoi, and work out rules collectively. You really think that the governments of Laos and Burma are going to accept the new rules, and hence, have their own power and control reduced ?? No way.

the problem with the EU is that there is no democracy, all countries should be equal, all countries should have the same rules and regulations as determined in brussels .. new Soviet Union, the EU

[Equalizer]

Quote

"Thailand has good prospects to be a regional hub for tourism."

This doesn't seem to be the case at present

Hub, meaning the point of arrival. Thailand will always get the landing fees of all visitors to the Mekong region. Unless of course these other countries have several billion dollars hanging around to build an international airport that can accommodate the worlds SE Asian bound aircraft. Plus the infrastructure that is needed to go with it.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

I met a young Belgian who was off to tour Myanmar. She flew Amsterdam - Guangzhou - Yangon, no need to even transit Bangkok.

Of course that is just one example, but I can see other similar routes opening in the years to come, especially with Myanmar opening up more...

Yes there are alternative routes and maybe China Airways could do some damage to Thailand if they catered for the European market to supply connections to ASEAN. I think Thailand's ASEAN negotiations will stop this.

[bapoboy]

Oh! Look over there, I see Thaksin...no, he's over there, oh oh....now he's over there, no he's not....he's over there.

another quality expats.

it is bad to stay in thailand, better in somalia

[asdecas]

Virtually the only point on which ASEAN countries ever agree is not to cause each other to lose face.

[baboon]

Equalizer - short of negotiating an all out ban of Chinese carriers in the whole of ASEAN, I don't really see what Thailand could do..

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

What B/S , you get just as many fruit cakes as anybody else entering your countries with security , quite frankly none of the countries mentioned could reach an agreement on toilet paper colour let alone a scheme like the Schengen Visa although It would be nice to streamline each country's Tourist Visa requirements so that they are all the same requirements and length of time periods and instructions not subject to individual interpretations , ie 30 days 60, 90 180,with renewal, it doesn't matter how long you stay in a country, because you are spending money ,so being restrictive and hiding behind the Siam curtain will not help Thailand ,not being related but worthy of mention , you could also free up the matter of special land allowance for married expats who would like to own the land their house stands on therefore freeing up uncertainty

Own land their house sits on? How many foreigners have died wishing for that? Nope, it will never happen unless you you drink a mushroom shake. They say it makes you see the world as you want to see it. Otherwise, accept the reality that the kKingdom doesn't care a Farang marries a Thai but no way in hell will a foreigner own land. Thailand prides itself on never being occupied and the restriction of land ownership is just one of the measures to make sure when you dead and gone that your rented land returns.

[Fab5BKK]

Surely Thailand is already the regional hub in the Mekong area. It's the place with most flights from Europe, the largest airport and the place where most tourists start their Southeast Asian trips. For once the word hub is used correctly.

But is it being used more and more as the place travellers fly into before flying straight out to other countries in the region?

South East Asia is a lot more than just the Mekong area...

BKK is surely not the busiest airport in ASEAN. CGK, SIN, KUL come up to my mind...

Edited December 21, 2014 by Fab5BKK

[BritTim]

Free unhindered movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country and is a silly fantasy that some people ignorant of history - including recent history bathe in ... Just look at the migrant invasion into the U.K. Just look at the Hispanic - Mexican - Central American migratory invasion of the USA...

Well, the native Americans might agree with you, but I do not.

Immigrants, in general, are a self selecting group of highly motivated, ambitious individuals. Recipient countries tend to resent new immigrant arrivals, only recognizing the immense economic benefits they bring in retrospect.

I shall not pretend there are no downsides. Local culture certainly comes under pressure from the different ideas of the arrivals. However, "death sentence to the sovereignty of that country"? No way. For all the immigration into the UK of the last 5,000 years, the UK armed forces remain firmly under Westminster control and Ireland, Jamaica, Pakistan, India, Poland, Nigeria, Hong Kong and all the other sources of immigration into the country have no influence whatsoever on how they are used.

[tonbridgebrit]

But NOT -- a simple set of talks between neighboring - Mekong area countries cannot take place without the problem of eventual AEC-ASEAN coming into play... It is the ELEPHANT in the ROOM.. .

Frankly for South East Asia and the greater region this AEC - ASEAN thing is a solution waiting for a problem... And this particular OP is just a small part of all that... And the bigger issues hinders common sense solutions - because of the greater specter of the total program of AEC-ASEAN hanging over every sub aspect - even if it only involves a few neighboring countries.

It is just hype and propaganda with each country trying to show how gracious they want to be - but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they cannot do it... I really do not see any particular benefits in such a complex approach... Why not set a simple standard for reciprocal trade and visa accommodations each with the other - one at a time - irrespective of the others - but with some eye towards a common standard that MAY come about some day.

AEC - ASEAN is an unnecessary and unneeded approach - over reaching in most every aspect and complicating issues that could be solved directly other ways -- and is 20 years ahead of its time -- if not 40 years...

All the window dressing and the cooperative touting is a waste of time and energy... Just throw it all out and start with simple one on one negotiations for smoothed out trade, commerce and visa entrances and exits for the region one neighbor at a time.

All the add ons of AEC - ASEAN is coloring the issue of Visas -- such as migrant labor easily crossing the border hinders other discussions as it is an eventual job killer of the everyday Thai citizen who is led to believe it would only be the lowest of labor jobs when eventually it will reach ALL other levels and cause wide spread unemployment 3 to 5 years after implementation among office workers, technical workers, engineers and more... it is called the Creep Factor... 'The Camel's Nose under the tent'.

Free unhindered movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country and is a silly fantasy that some people ignorant of history - including recent history bathe in ... Just look at the migrant invasion into the U.K. Just look at the Hispanic - Mexican - Central American migratory invasion of the USA...

If anyone does not look at these two examples and see a big set of problems then that person is blind ... Thailand does not need to create problems by imitating the EU -- problems that will come

Forget the area or regional talks -- sit down and talk with Cambodia -- then later sit down and have private talks with Laos, etc., etc. Regional - highly advertised talks only bring on bouts of posturing and not much more.

Well, I am not going to say that freedom of movement for all workers in a region or area will damage the area is something that I totally agree with.

However, yes, I agree with "free movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country". If you allow other people to enter your country because THEY want to, yes, the government is losing control and power in that country.

I said before on a previous post, how Europe has Brussels. European countries send their representatives to Brussels and they create laws and rules that will be followed by everybody. This means the individual governments in the European Union (the German government, the British government, the French government,etc) are slightly losing control of their own countries.

Imagine, for example, Hanoi. ASEAN countries send representatives to Hanoi. They create laws and rules to be followed by everybody in ASEAN. It simply is NOT going to happen. No way are governments like Burma and Laos (and Singapore too) going to hand over some power to a 'new collective administration' based anywhere. That's why ASEAN is simply NOT the same as the European Union. And no, ASEAN 2015 is NOT about freedom of movement of ALL workers. Some people on Thai Visa seem to think it is about freedom of movement of all workers.

[BSJ]

I just want to own 1 rai of land in my name to build a home on. As for the visa issue, there will always be something to worry about because bureaucracies will always find something that will cause annoyance to expats and locals alike.

But some good news from immigration. For 90 day reporting all I have to do now is go to the reception desk and have the bar code on the form zapped and that's it! maybe same for you?

[Tomtomtom69]

This must be a problem for other countries.

After the incident n Sydney didn't the PM talk up how secure LoS is with the careful monitoring of all people entering and leaving ?

Obviously the guy is in serious denial. Although it's not a recent thing, but if you remember back to 2003, which country was found to be harbouring the infamous Indonesian terrorist Hambali, who was captured with US assistance I believe? None other than Thailand. If it wasn't for the determination of the US, the Thais wouldn't have done anything about him.

Thousands of criminals continue to exploit Thailand's easy borders and that won't change anytime soon. Even the PM himself said that he will go easy on border runners because otherwise the Thai economy could be affected. So despite all this hoopla about a "crackdown" on border runners, it was all hot air and it's not any harder to enter/exit and remain in Thailand and come back again compared to the past. Some very small changes were enacted that don't affect very many people but the overall situation remains unchanged.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

But NOT -- a simple set of talks between neighboring - Mekong area countries cannot take place without the problem of eventual AEC-ASEAN coming into play... It is the ELEPHANT in the ROOM.. .

Frankly for South East Asia and the greater region this AEC - ASEAN thing is a solution waiting for a problem... And this particular OP is just a small part of all that... And the bigger issues hinders common sense solutions - because of the greater specter of the total program of AEC-ASEAN hanging over every sub aspect - even if it only involves a few neighboring countries.

It is just hype and propaganda with each country trying to show how gracious they want to be - but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they cannot do it... I really do not see any particular benefits in such a complex approach... Why not set a simple standard for reciprocal trade and visa accommodations each with the other - one at a time - irrespective of the others - but with some eye towards a common standard that MAY come about some day.

AEC - ASEAN is an unnecessary and unneeded approach - over reaching in most every aspect and complicating issues that could be solved directly other ways -- and is 20 years ahead of its time -- if not 40 years...

All the window dressing and the cooperative touting is a waste of time and energy... Just throw it all out and start with simple one on one negotiations for smoothed out trade, commerce and visa entrances and exits for the region one neighbor at a time.

All the add ons of AEC - ASEAN is coloring the issue of Visas -- such as migrant labor easily crossing the border hinders other discussions as it is an eventual job killer of the everyday Thai citizen who is led to believe it would only be the lowest of labor jobs when eventually it will reach ALL other levels and cause wide spread unemployment 3 to 5 years after implementation among office workers, technical workers, engineers and more... it is called the Creep Factor... 'The Camel's Nose under the tent'.

Free unhindered movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country and is a silly fantasy that some people ignorant of history - including recent history bathe in ... Just look at the migrant invasion into the U.K. Just look at the Hispanic - Mexican - Central American migratory invasion of the USA...

If anyone does not look at these two examples and see a big set of problems then that person is blind ... Thailand does not need to create problems by imitating the EU -- problems that will come

Forget the area or regional talks -- sit down and talk with Cambodia -- then later sit down and have private talks with Laos, etc., etc. Regional - highly advertised talks only bring on bouts of posturing and not much more.

Well, I am not going to say that freedom of movement for all workers in a region or area will damage the area is something that I totally agree with.

However, yes, I agree with "free movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country". If you allow other people to enter your country because THEY want to, yes, the government is losing control and power in that country.

I said before on a previous post, how Europe has Brussels. European countries send their representatives to Brussels and they create laws and rules that will be followed by everybody. This means the individual governments in the European Union (the German government, the British government, the French government,etc) are slightly losing control of their own countries.

Imagine, for example, Hanoi. ASEAN countries send representatives to Hanoi. They create laws and rules to be followed by everybody in ASEAN. It simply is NOT going to happen. No way are governments like Burma and Laos (and Singapore too) going to hand over some power to a 'new collective administration' based anywhere. That's why ASEAN is simply NOT the same as the European Union. And no, ASEAN 2015 is NOT about freedom of movement of ALL workers. Some people on Thai Visa seem to think it is about freedom of movement of all workers.

Some Thai Visa posters are extremely poorly informed or just imagining things.

The fact is, as you say, ASEAN is nothing like the EU and so many things here in ASEAN are decades behind in terms of integrating the economies of the ASEAN-10, when compared to the EU.

First of all, unlike the Schengen member states, some of which aren't even EU members (such as Norway and Switzerland) but which nevertheless offer freedom of movement to all citizens of fellow member states, there is nothing even remotely like that being proposed for ASEAN. If it were to ever come about, expect it to happen in like 50 years from now. Simply put, ASEAN isn't even remotely close to being ready. The physical infrastructure isn't there, each country has different national priorities and importantly, varying levels of development. If ASEAN allowed freedom of movement of persons, something like 100 million ASEAN citizens would naturally gravitate towards the most developed ASEAN countries of Singapore and Brunei, neither of which could accommodate them. Even Malaysia, which is also quite attractive, would not be able or willing to take them in. It would impact of the sovereignty of each member state.

ASEAN member states certainly do NOT want to give up their sovereignty or their labor markets to anyone, especially not other member states.

And ASEAN countries can't even agree on simple issues like cross border transport. Unlike in Europe where this is a non-issue, did you know that it is impossible for a Thai car or truck to enter Vietnam and vice versa? Why? Well because there is no common agreement on the cross border movement of vehicles between the two nations, which is likely a function of such factors as the Vietnamese fearing Thai efficiency, which could hurt their trucking industry (and similarly, the Thais don't want foreigners to come in and take their logistics jobs either). The only agreements that exist are individual agreements between Thailand and Laos and Vietnam and Laos. This means Thai and Vietnamese vehicles are allowed to enter Laos, while Lao vehicles can enter both countries, but for any cross border overland movement between Vietnam and Thailand, a private car can NOT be used unless it's Lao registered. Trucks must offload cargo either at the Thai or the Vietnamese borders and change transport. This is costly and inefficient, but it's the way it's always been, largely to protect individual interests in the respective countries. Some concerns about traffic safety and infrastructure, particularly for Thai drivers heading to Vietnam, must also exist, which is one more reason why Vietnam bans Thai vehicles (the excuse is RHD is dangerous for right hand traffic).

In the case of Thailand and Myanmar, the Burmese allow Thai trucks and cars to enter and travel around the border areas only, within a limited distance from the border and either only during the day (depending on the border) or for no more than around a week or two, but again, being restricted to the border areas. Thailand reciprocates by not allowing Burmese trucks across (except the odd smallish truck) and Burmese private vehicles and songthaews can cross but again are restricted to the border areas.

I have not heard of anything specific that suggests this will change under AEC 2015, except for Cambodia probably coming on board and implementing an official system for all Thai vehicles to enter at any checkpoint and with insurance coverage, which is a massive improvement over the current dysfunctional, commercial vehicles only with a quota system, or unofficial entry of private vehicles at some checkpoints, but not others, with no insurance offered at the border.

But even if Cambodia jumps on the bandwagon, this doesn't do much for improved third country connectivity, it simply brings Cambodia into line with it's neighbors but whether it will be possible to see a Singaporean truck up in Hanoi or a Vietnamese car down in Malaysia or in Myanmar, and not on a caravan tour, but privately, remains to be seen.

So all in all, ASEAN is way, way behind the EU on so many issues (I have highlighted just two) and I have my doubts that it will ever be anything like the EU.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Tomtomtom69

[Tomtomtom69]

I think that they are worried of loosing Visa fee money to other countries and security worries is BS.

I agree, but I really don't see any advantages of a multi-country visa anyway. For many nationals, most of the ASEAN countries already offer visa free entry or a visa-on-arrival (which in itself is simply a form of revenue raising anyway) so a multi-country visa does nothing for most foreigners.

A Chinese tourist on a group tour, who would need a separate visa for both Thailand and Cambodia may benefit from the current two country visa, but since getting it isn't that easy (it involves a much longer wait than obtaining separate visas for both countries) and even once you have it, you still have to pass through passport control in both countries, it doesn't offer very much. Which is one reason why I would never go for it.

Also, Vietnam for example has been talking about visa free travel for nationals of more countries. Australia has been cited as one of those, while Russians who currently get 15 days will supposedly get 30 days under the proposal. So with this being the case and perhaps one day Cambodia and Laos also offering visa free access for more foreigners, this would make any talk of a multi-country visa be moot anyway. Also, Myanmar is mulling the possibility of offering visas-on-arrival (in the current form you have to pre-apply and you get your visa stamped only at airports) whereas eventually land borders with Thailand will also offer visas-on-arrival (not just the one or multiple day passes for travel near the border, but proper visas) but there is even a possibility of visas on arrival that can be applied for without any pre-arrangements; later on, visa-free access is likely too.

[fobuff]

what will happen to all the illegals (farang) with the visa runs.. hmmmmmm

[Jim walker]

Plenty bam pots wandering around in Thailand already with visas I dont think the security would be a big issue for Thailand I think money would be the main issue with the Thais, I can just feel a new TAT revelation coming soon regarding the next 46million tourists for 2015 along with their 89 trillion Baht and only to be spent in Thailand under the new strict spending rules on the multi country visa, anyone thinking of spending money outside Thailand will be stopped and searched and all their money confiscated by the RTP authorities

[Suriya4]

If ASEAN picks a capital, it be be Bangkok, because all ambassadors like to live here (lots of Soi cowboy and nana). Also BKK has biggest airport, and being located in the middle of asean.

[Tomtomtom69]

I just want to own 1 rai of land in my name to build a home on. As for the visa issue, there will always be something to worry about because bureaucracies will always find something that will cause annoyance to expats and locals alike.

But some good news from immigration. For 90 day reporting all I have to do now is go to the reception desk and have the bar code on the form zapped and that's it! maybe same for you?

Things are improving but with baby steps.

[Fab5BKK]

If ASEAN picks a capital, it be be Bangkok, because all ambassadors like to live here (lots of Soi cowboy and nana). Also BKK has biggest airport, and being located in the middle of asean.

Ambassadors going to Soi Cowboy???

Biggest airport....compared to what?

Get your facts right!

[tonbridgebrit]

But NOT -- a simple set of talks between neighboring - Mekong area countries cannot take place without the problem of eventual AEC-ASEAN coming into play... It is the ELEPHANT in the ROOM.. .

Frankly for South East Asia and the greater region this AEC - ASEAN thing is a solution waiting for a problem... And this particular OP is just a small part of all that... And the bigger issues hinders common sense solutions - because of the greater specter of the total program of AEC-ASEAN hanging over every sub aspect - even if it only involves a few neighboring countries.

It is just hype and propaganda with each country trying to show how gracious they want to be - but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they cannot do it... I really do not see any particular benefits in such a complex approach... Why not set a simple standard for reciprocal trade and visa accommodations each with the other - one at a time - irrespective of the others - but with some eye towards a common standard that MAY come about some day.

AEC - ASEAN is an unnecessary and unneeded approach - over reaching in most every aspect and complicating issues that could be solved directly other ways -- and is 20 years ahead of its time -- if not 40 years...

All the window dressing and the cooperative touting is a waste of time and energy... Just throw it all out and start with simple one on one negotiations for smoothed out trade, commerce and visa entrances and exits for the region one neighbor at a time.

All the add ons of AEC - ASEAN is coloring the issue of Visas -- such as migrant labor easily crossing the border hinders other discussions as it is an eventual job killer of the everyday Thai citizen who is led to believe it would only be the lowest of labor jobs when eventually it will reach ALL other levels and cause wide spread unemployment 3 to 5 years after implementation among office workers, technical workers, engineers and more... it is called the Creep Factor... 'The Camel's Nose under the tent'.

Free unhindered movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country and is a silly fantasy that some people ignorant of history - including recent history bathe in ... Just look at the migrant invasion into the U.K. Just look at the Hispanic - Mexican - Central American migratory invasion of the USA...

If anyone does not look at these two examples and see a big set of problems then that person is blind ... Thailand does not need to create problems by imitating the EU -- problems that will come

Forget the area or regional talks -- sit down and talk with Cambodia -- then later sit down and have private talks with Laos, etc., etc. Regional - highly advertised talks only bring on bouts of posturing and not much more.

Well, I am not going to say that freedom of movement for all workers in a region or area will damage the area is something that I totally agree with.

However, yes, I agree with "free movement of people across borders is a death sentence to the sovereignty of that country". If you allow other people to enter your country because THEY want to, yes, the government is losing control and power in that country.

I said before on a previous post, how Europe has Brussels. European countries send their representatives to Brussels and they create laws and rules that will be followed by everybody. This means the individual governments in the European Union (the German government, the British government, the French government,etc) are slightly losing control of their own countries.

Imagine, for example, Hanoi. ASEAN countries send representatives to Hanoi. They create laws and rules to be followed by everybody in ASEAN. It simply is NOT going to happen. No way are governments like Burma and Laos (and Singapore too) going to hand over some power to a 'new collective administration' based anywhere. That's why ASEAN is simply NOT the same as the European Union. And no, ASEAN 2015 is NOT about freedom of movement of ALL workers. Some people on Thai Visa seem to think it is about freedom of movement of all workers.

Some Thai Visa posters are extremely poorly informed or just imagining things.

The fact is, as you say, ASEAN is nothing like the EU and so many things here in ASEAN are decades behind in terms of integrating the economies of the ASEAN-10, when compared to the EU.

First of all, unlike the Schengen member states, some of which aren't even EU members (such as Norway and Switzerland) but which nevertheless offer freedom of movement to all citizens of fellow member states, there is nothing even remotely like that being proposed for ASEAN. If it were to ever come about, expect it to happen in like 50 years from now. Simply put, ASEAN isn't even remotely close to being ready. The physical infrastructure isn't there, each country has different national priorities and importantly, varying levels of development. If ASEAN allowed freedom of movement of persons, something like 100 million ASEAN citizens would naturally gravitate towards the most developed ASEAN countries of Singapore and Brunei, neither of which could accommodate them. Even Malaysia, which is also quite attractive, would not be able or willing to take them in. It would impact of the sovereignty of each member state.

ASEAN member states certainly do NOT want to give up their sovereignty or their labor markets to anyone, especially not other member states.

And ASEAN countries can't even agree on simple issues like cross border transport. Unlike in Europe where this is a non-issue, did you know that it is impossible for a Thai car or truck to enter Vietnam and vice versa? Why? Well because there is no common agreement on the cross border movement of vehicles between the two nations, which is likely a function of such factors as the Vietnamese fearing Thai efficiency, which could hurt their trucking industry (and similarly, the Thais don't want foreigners to come in and take their logistics jobs either). The only agreements that exist are individual agreements between Thailand and Laos and Vietnam and Laos. This means Thai and Vietnamese vehicles are allowed to enter Laos, while Lao vehicles can enter both countries, but for any cross border overland movement between Vietnam and Thailand, a private car can NOT be used unless it's Lao registered. Trucks must offload cargo either at the Thai or the Vietnamese borders and change transport. This is costly and inefficient, but it's the way it's always been, largely to protect individual interests in the respective countries. Some concerns about traffic safety and infrastructure, particularly for Thai drivers heading to Vietnam, must also exist, which is one more reason why Vietnam bans Thai vehicles (the excuse is RHD is dangerous for right hand traffic).

In the case of Thailand and Myanmar, the Burmese allow Thai trucks and cars to enter and travel around the border areas only, within a limited distance from the border and either only during the day (depending on the border) or for no more than around a week or two, but again, being restricted to the border areas. Thailand reciprocates by not allowing Burmese trucks across (except the odd smallish truck) and Burmese private vehicles and songthaews can cross but again are restricted to the border areas.

I have not heard of anything specific that suggests this will change under AEC 2015, except for Cambodia probably coming on board and implementing an official system for all Thai vehicles to enter at any checkpoint and with insurance coverage, which is a massive improvement over the current dysfunctional, commercial vehicles only with a quota system, or unofficial entry of private vehicles at some checkpoints, but not others, with no insurance offered at the border.

But even if Cambodia jumps on the bandwagon, this doesn't do much for improved third country connectivity, it simply brings Cambodia into line with it's neighbors but whether it will be possible to see a Singaporean truck up in Hanoi or a Vietnamese car down in Malaysia or in Myanmar, and not on a caravan tour, but privately, remains to be seen.

So all in all, ASEAN is way, way behind the EU on so many issues (I have highlighted just two) and I have my doubts that it will ever be anything like the EU.

+1

I agree with what you say, but I stress "ASEAN member states certainly do NOT want to give up their sovereignty or their labor markets to anyone, especially not other member states."

Especially giving up sovereignty. Burma, Laos, Vietnam and Singapore won't want to give up even a small bit of sovereignty. Even Thailand, Thailand doesn't want to give up any sovereignty.