CNX Work Permit Office says, "Too hard, go to BKK!"

[Lung Fish]

Got a NonImmi, multi entry, type 'B' visa from Australia. I'm self employed with a registered Oz business. I have no Thai employer, no Thai business connections. My registered office is in Australia, I work from home and interview clients in their homes whether it be in Oz, Thailand or where-ever. A client from any part of the world will pay into my Oz account and I pay myself from those accounts in Oz. I don't take local money. I'm in the recruitment consultant game. I don't fit the 'eligible' list of customers on the BKK One Stop Shop's website. I seem to have fallen through the immigration cracks of the changing job market. BUT, I think I'm working!

Do I need a work permit?

Who exactly would I go to?

It would be pretty sad to get to the One Stop Shop and be told to go to Chiang Mai :-(

[ubonjoe]

Unless you are working for a company registered here you cannot get a work permit.

You sort of fall into a grey area as far as needing a work permit. Since what you are doing is just meeting with people your non-b visa partly covers it.

[Lung Fish]

Thanks Ubonjoe, I think you've saved me time and money. I think I'll see a lawyer and see if they can put something in writing. Just in case I accidentally run over someone's precious cat and they complain to their police chief uncle! It would be good to show I've tried to comply. It might lessen the compensation!

[EnglishJohn]

I thought we got some clarification a month or two back that as long as you are being paid in your home country and also paying tax there, it is allowed to work in Thailand ?.

Common sense says the intent behind the work permit is to stop people working here for a Thai company but not registering to pay tax, but the usual Thai logic in the rules ends up with a group of people being in an impossible position and must fly under the radar.

I wish they would sort themselves out : they seem to have unworkable laws so ministers make statements that certain exceptions are OK. I'm not sure how legal these verbal (but official) statements are. As TIT, I expect they are not. Sadly logic is not something Thais are very good at.

[12DrinkMore]

Thanks Ubonjoe, I think you've saved me time and money. I think I'll see a lawyer and see if they can put something in writing. Just in case I accidentally run over someone's precious cat and they complain to their police chief uncle! It would be good to show I've tried to comply. It might lessen the compensation!

You would probably be wasting your money.

Just keep a low profile and don't go around boasting.

There are any number of people with too much time on their hands and large grudges to bear....

[Thai at Heart]

Better still, get the aussies to sign that you have left oz, get paid offshore and don't pay any tax at all

[SiSePuede419]

"Too hard, go to BKK"

That's what She said!

[Lung Fish]

Thanks EnglishJohn, I see the tax avoidance logic now. Makes sense. I believe in paying tax. Governments need revenue to provide services. But hopefully I won't pay twice if I can help it. My main concern is leaving a handle on my back that a well connected but disaffected soul can pull me over when I least expect it.

[LivinLOS]

Its not legal legal.. But your unlikely to have issues if you keep a low profile and make no ripples.

Dont pretend its legit, to perform any work, which this is without doubt, the labor office demands a WP.. But in your position obtaining one is a high burden to place on what you do.

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1175

[LivinLOS]

I thought we got some clarification a month or two back that as long as you are being paid in your home country and also paying tax there, it is allowed to work in Thailand ?.

No.. Thats a wildly miss quoted comment made by CNX immigration.

CNX immigration stated, that in their view, they would not make problems for people here short term as tourists, doing work online for businesses outside of Thailand.

However.. Immigration is not responsible for labor law, that like my car mechanic saying he doesnt think I need a root canal. It also specifically was stated about short term tourists. The labor dept has been very clear, any work (and their definition of work is so broad to be ridiculous) requires a work permit. But then to get one, they make it a process that simply doesnt fit, or at the very least becomes stupidly expensive, many modern work situations.

[Lung Fish]

Thanks LivinLOS, good background context. Unfortunately for me its the CNX labour dept that's said, "I don't know!" So, is there perhaps another office in BKK that might know seeing as I don't fit the eligibility for the One Stop Shop that they told me to go to?

[ubonjoe]

Thanks LivinLOS, good background context. Unfortunately for me its the CNX labour dept that's said, "I don't know!" So, is there perhaps another office in BKK that might know seeing as I don't fit the eligibility for the One Stop Shop that they told me to go to?

There is no office where you could apply for a work permit. The only way you can get one is to start up a Thai company or set up a representative office.

[Lung Fish]

Thanks again Ubonjoe. That settles it then. I'll sit in my little legal grey area and try to avoid running over cats :-)

[LivinLOS]

Thanks LivinLOS, good background context. Unfortunately for me its the CNX labour dept that's said, "I don't know!" So, is there perhaps another office in BKK that might know seeing as I don't fit the eligibility for the One Stop Shop that they told me to go to?

There is no office where you could apply for a work permit. The only way you can get one is to start up a Thai company or set up a representative office.

And no one with any importance will put in writing your in the clear.. tho you might be told verbally they are not currently looking at..

By the letter of the law its illegal.. But Thailand has many laws they dont see fit to bother about.. IMO they like to have large grey areas and over reaching laws than can be applied or ignored by local discretion.. A cynic would say they like it that way as it allows for graft within the system by those entrusted to enforce.. But hey.. It is what it is..

[Alwyn]

I think somebody has already stated it.. Just keep a low profile and don't tell the bar flies what you're doing. You have a non-B though; How did you get that as usually a Thai company needs to sponsor this visa. You might have a problem renewing so take this into consideration. If you're over 50 just get a retirement visa that will work best (from Thai administration point of view) If you're not over 50 then consider how you'll get your next non B. There is a way though

[samran]

Most countries have this grey area - it isn't unique to Thailand per se, just that you are spending a bit more time here than usual.

[Lung Fish]

Hmm ... interesting. Thanks Alwyn. Regarding my nonB, I just told the Oz consulate exactly what I wrote initially above and they gave it to me. I will be eligible for a retirement visa when I need to renew. I'll still be working though (same scenario) so maybe I'll just be swapping shades of grey! But look, if it's easier from a Thai administration point of view then it could be a nicer shade all round!

[doublephil]

I don't think there is any real issue here. You have a legitimate foreign registered company and a legitimate multi-Non B visa and you are therefore legally able to conduct any work - as necessary - here in Thailand - for your foreign registered company - which is a permitted activity for anyone with a Non-B visa . A Work Permit is only for those who work for a Thai registered company. My situation is very similar, The Thai Embassy in London has explicitly told me I can work as much as I want in Thailand - as long as I am working for my UK company, paying UK tax, etc - and not working for a Thai company. Just get on with whatever you want to do - but as others have said - keep quiet - don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know about what you are doing - because lots of people , including (or maybe especially) government officials really don't know what is or is not actually permitted.

[Lung Fish]

Thanks Samran and Doublephil. Nice and clear.

[ubonjoe]

I don't think there is any real issue here. You have a legitimate foreign registered company and a legitimate multi-Non B visa and you are therefore legally able to conduct any work - as necessary - here in Thailand - for your foreign registered company - which is a permitted activity for anyone with a Non-B visa . A Work Permit is only for those who work for a Thai registered company. My situation is very similar, The Thai Embassy in London has explicitly told me I can work as much as I want in Thailand - as long as I am working for my UK company, paying UK tax, etc - and not working for a Thai company. Just get on with whatever you want to do - but as others have said - keep quiet - don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know about what you are doing - because lots of people , including (or maybe especially) government officials really don't know what is or is not actually permitted.

You were told wrong. A non-b visa does not allow you to work. Only a work permit allows you to work.

You can travel to Thailand to have meetings with customers and etc. You are very limited as to what you can do.

If you are going into an office everyday that is working here.

[steve187]

I don't think there is any real issue here. You have a legitimate foreign registered company and a legitimate multi-Non B visa and you are therefore legally able to conduct any work - as necessary - here in Thailand - for your foreign registered company - which is a permitted activity for anyone with a Non-B visa . A Work Permit is only for those who work for a Thai registered company. My situation is very similar, The Thai Embassy in London has explicitly told me I can work as much as I want in Thailand - as long as I am working for my UK company, paying UK tax, etc - and not working for a Thai company. Just get on with whatever you want to do - but as others have said - keep quiet - don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know about what you are doing - because lots of people , including (or maybe especially) government officials really don't know what is or is not actually permitted.

You were told wrong. A non-b visa does not allow you to work. Only a work permit allows you to work.

You can travel to Thailand to have meetings with customers and etc. You are very limited as to what you can do.

If you are going into an office everyday that is working here.

I agree with ubonjoe,

could painting contractors from the UK arrive in Thailand, paint a block of condo's for a UK firm, get paid and pay tax in the UK

Edited December 25, 2014 by steve187

[Konini]

Thanks EnglishJohn, I see the tax avoidance logic now. Makes sense. I believe in paying tax. Governments need revenue to provide services. But hopefully I won't pay twice if I can help it. My main concern is leaving a handle on my back that a well connected but disaffected soul can pull me over when I least expect it.

I fully agree with you on the tax thing and we have continued to lodge tax returns since leaving Australia 8 years ago. If nobody paid tax, we would all be complaining when there was no money to run the country.

We have rental property in UK but pay tax in Aus - although we don't pay tax there (had to sign a form from Inland Revenue stating that we were declaring it as part of our income it in Aus) any tax we did pay in UK is a full deduction. It could be a special agreement with UK, but I think any tax anywhere in the world would be claimable as a deduction not an expense (although expense may be better for you if you're close to the ceiling of your tax bracket you want to minimise your taxable income to remain in a lower bracket).

Contrary to widely held opinion, the ATO is very fair on the whole, as I imagine most taxation offices around the world are.

[bazmlb]

Even if you were eligible to apply for a work permit, your address is Chiang Mai so you have to apply there, unless you were applying under BOI then you could use the one stop in Bangkok. As mentioned to be able to get a WP you need more than just the non B visa.

[thedemon]

Employees of Australian and New Zealand companies qualify for special concessions regarding entry and work permits under their respective Free Trade Agreements with Thailand including being able to utilize the One Stop Service Centre without meeting the normal requirements. Also there is specific mention of not requiring a work permit under certain circumstance as long as entry to Thailand is made with an APEC card.

More info here: https://www.dfat.gov.au/fta/tafta/key-outcomes.html (under the heading "Temporary Entry of Business People")

How fully this aspect of the FTA has been implemented may be another story. The trade section of the Aus Embassy should be able to help...... maybe. They should anyway.

[LivinLOS]

Most countries have this grey area - it isn't unique to Thailand per se, just that you are spending a bit more time here than usual.

I dont know.. For example most EU countries have a 183 day period where you can continue to work for a home country organization, one without a branch office or permanent establishment in-country, and legally pay your taxes and operate from that home country. Cross border labor laws around europe are quite logical that way.

[LivinLOS]

I don't think there is any real issue here. You have a legitimate foreign registered company and a legitimate multi-Non B visa and you are therefore legally able to conduct any work - as necessary - here in Thailand - for your foreign registered company - which is a permitted activity for anyone with a Non-B visa . A Work Permit is only for those who work for a Thai registered company. My situation is very similar, The Thai Embassy in London has explicitly told me I can work as much as I want in Thailand - as long as I am working for my UK company, paying UK tax, etc - and not working for a Thai company. Just get on with whatever you want to do - but as others have said - keep quiet - don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know about what you are doing - because lots of people , including (or maybe especially) government officials really don't know what is or is not actually permitted.

I dont believe that advise to be accurate.. Did they put it in writing ??

[Soutpeel]

I don't think there is any real issue here. You have a legitimate foreign registered company and a legitimate multi-Non B visa and you are therefore legally able to conduct any work - as necessary - here in Thailand - for your foreign registered company - which is a permitted activity for anyone with a Non-B visa . A Work Permit is only for those who work for a Thai registered company. My situation is very similar, The Thai Embassy in London has explicitly told me I can work as much as I want in Thailand - as long as I am working for my UK company, paying UK tax, etc - and not working for a Thai company. Just get on with whatever you want to do - but as others have said - keep quiet - don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know about what you are doing - because lots of people , including (or maybe especially) government officials really don't know what is or is not actually permitted.

You were told wrong. A non-b visa does not allow you to work. Only a work permit allows you to work.

You can travel to Thailand to have meetings with customers and etc. You are very limited as to what you can do.

If you are going into an office everyday that is working here.

And the other question would be is on what basis was the multi-entry B issued ?

On the basis of possibility of setting up a business in Thailand ?

Seems to me the OP is already operating a business in Thailsnd

[rwdrwdrwd]

I thought we got some clarification a month or two back that as long as you are being paid in your home country and also paying tax there, it is allowed to work in Thailand ?.

No.. Thats a wildly miss quoted comment made by CNX immigration.

CNX immigration stated, that in their view, they would not make problems for people here short term as tourists, doing work online for businesses outside of Thailand.

However.. Immigration is not responsible for labor law, that like my car mechanic saying he doesnt think I need a root canal. It also specifically was stated about short term tourists. The labor dept has been very clear, any work (and their definition of work is so broad to be ridiculous) requires a work permit. But then to get one, they make it a process that simply doesnt fit, or at the very least becomes stupidly expensive, many modern work situations.

There was no 'short term' qualification in the officials comments at all, only that there was no special visa for people who worked online that would enable them to stay in Thailand on that basis.

It is correct that the Labour Department are responsible for labour law, however the Immigration department are responsible for ensuring that visa holders act within immigration legislation, and as visas do reference working (and the ineligibility to do so), it is somewhat of a concern for that department as well.

Sounds to me like OP is acting in exactly the manner of a 'digital nomad' (assuming that by 'interviewing', 'in home' you mean that you are interviewing candidates over the internet), and as such are not dealing with Thai entities nor being renumerated from or in Thailand.

In the event OP finds themselves sourcing a candidate for a Thai client, or indeed interviewing Thai candidates that feels very much in the danger zone to me (the former more than the latter, unless they are sourcing contractors and handling payments and invoicing in which case it's equally dangerous).

Short answer is, dealing exclusively online with non Thai entities and being renumerated outside of Thailand whilst being in Thailand does not appear to be considered to be in breach of immigration legislation. In terms of Labour legislation, that has never been applied to someone operating in this manner. OP is very unlikely to get any form of official confirmation either way, even if they actively pursue it - it appears to be a grey area at the present time, and the situation could change quickly. Keeping quiet and 100% avoiding dealing with any Thai entities is probably advisable.

Edited December 25, 2014 by rwdrwdrwd

[Lung Fish]

Employees of Australian and New Zealand companies qualify for special concessions regarding entry and work permits under their respective Free Trade Agreements with Thailand including being able to utilize the One Stop Service Centre without meeting the normal requirements. Also there is specific mention of not requiring a work permit under certain circumstance as long as entry to Thailand is made with an APEC card.

More info here: https://www.dfat.gov.au/fta/tafta/key-outcomes.html (under the heading "Temporary Entry of Business People")

How fully this aspect of the FTA has been implemented may be another story. The trade section of the Aus Embassy should be able to help...... maybe. They should anyway.

This is really interesting. Is it already in place? I guess whether it is or isn't it doesn't really matter if the officer behind the desk doesn't know about it or the general practice is to ignore it. Edited December 25, 2014 by Lung Fish

[Lung Fish]

I don't think there is any real issue here. You have a legitimate foreign registered company and a legitimate multi-Non B visa and you are therefore legally able to conduct any work - as necessary - here in Thailand - for your foreign registered company - which is a permitted activity for anyone with a Non-B visa . A Work Permit is only for those who work for a Thai registered company. My situation is very similar, The Thai Embassy in London has explicitly told me I can work as much as I want in Thailand - as long as I am working for my UK company, paying UK tax, etc - and not working for a Thai company. Just get on with whatever you want to do - but as others have said - keep quiet - don't tell anyone who doesn't need to know about what you are doing - because lots of people , including (or maybe especially) government officials really don't know what is or is not actually permitted.

You were told wrong. A non-b visa does not allow you to work. Only a work permit allows you to work.

You can travel to Thailand to have meetings with customers and etc. You are very limited as to what you can do.

If you are going into an office everyday that is working here.

And the other question would be is on what basis was the multi-entry B issued ?

On the basis of possibility of setting up a business in Thailand ?

Seems to me the OP is already operating a business in Thailsnd

No, It's a startup in Oz with a first visit to Thailand in this capacity. I wrote to the Thai consulate in Oz pretty much saying what I said in my initial post. I told them it was a startup and needed to visit Thailand to establish business connections. Maybe my previous perfectly complient visits under tourist and non O visas helped. I don't know really. I paid the fee and they gave me the visa.