Failed expats and the lies they tell others and themselves as to why ...

[transam]

What a strange topic.......Is the OP having a meltdown and fishing.............

[kerrysum]

So many interesting topics of discussion...

I guess we can look at them all.... But all things accepted, Thailand has changed in so many ways.... And so has our own countries. But in dealing with Thailand since 1973 forward, maybe

I have changed in time, looked at and listened to the little voice in my head. It was my full intention to retire in Thailand, when I retired almost 4 years ago. I went back last time, did the village marriage with my wife, and I realized how much it had changed.... Or was it what I was seeing? I have watched Thailand go through so many changes. I do not think it matters what country you may want to live in, and yes I read the article posted. What is most important, that we can find some peace in our hearts. If you are happy living there at this time, I wish you continuing peace. If one chooses to leave, and find a peace inside, then that is your decision.

Where ever you are now, I hope that you are finding, just, what it is that you are looking for.

Happy New Years to you all....

Kerry

[Ulysses G.]

What does expat success look like? Teaching English for less than a grand a month, endless visa runs, and living in a toilet that you would never consider living in with a prostitue half your age?

That sounds like my first few years in Thailand. It was an adventure and I've never been more happy.

[AYJAYDEE]

What does expat success look like? Teaching English for less than a grand a month, endless visa runs, and living in a toilet that you would never consider living in with a prostitue half your age? Because that looks like failure to me. I'd rather go home than end up worse off in South East Asia.

I've been an expat for way over a decade and the vast majority of expats I've encountered have "failed" by any sensible measuring stick.

Staying in a country doesn't make you a success. It's what you do with your life that determines that.

and you figure youre the one that has what it takes to decide if others are living a satisfying life? rather presumptious i must say.

Satisfaction is not the same as success. Check it in the dictionary if you don't believe me. Society has pretty clearly demarked the definition of success; my example clear doesn't meet that standard.

You may feel smug about not judging but that's what life does to us every single time we leave the house.

Nonsense: there is more than one definition. the accomplisment of any desired outcome is success!

Full Definition of SUCCESS

1

obsolete : outcome, result

2

a : degree or measure of succeeding

b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence

3

: one that succeeds

[SinCityGr8One]

I don't think the word "Failed" is being used in the proper connotation. Any ex-pat from any Country that tries to live abroad will find out, if the place He has chosen will be "Home" to him. It is not so much that the ex-pat who decides, after a period of time that the chosen place to domicile did not live up to his expectations and decided to move back or out, was by any account a Failure by Him, but rather the chosen place failed to live up to his or her expectations. This can happen even after a rigorous investigation or a lengthy stay of the Country chosen as your final destination. There are 193 Countries, 61 Territories and 6 Disputed Territories around the Globe, so have your pick. I've been in the Kingdom for 11 years and have Zero thoughts of ever leaving. Thailand is not for everyone, so if you choose to leave, you just pack up and try another place. No big deal, Thailand failed to live up to your expectations. Anyhow, I've always said, "Home is where the Heart is". IMHO.

[lannarebirth]

I'd like to know what the OP refers to as 'expat failure'.

What is his/her definition of 'failure' ?

I own a crappy old car, had two sprogs with a Thai woman who I haven't married, I live more of my time in Thailand then I do the West, so fair enough to be classed as an expat ... so ... did I 'fail'?

.

Can only be seen in hindsight really. Here's a test for anyone wishing to know if they did or could fail. If you died tomorrow will everyone you care about still be able to live their dreams, with all the options that may entail?

Unless that question is rhetorical, it is otherwise senseless. Barring that the expat in question has somehow disabled the minds, or hacked off the arms and legs of everyone he or she cares about, of course they would be able. The question would be, would they be willing? Given the ethereal nature of dreams, the answer could only lie in the hearts and minds of everyone left behind. Putting this degree of onus on the potentially deceased, is in a word, cruel.

Dreams wasn't the best choice of words but I do feel we obligate ourselves when we make people dependent upon us. I think those obligations include seeing them through to a place where they are no longer dependent.

I think you are looking at it too narrowly. Personally I would not even consider having a child if I didn't think I could help to position them to have the choice to embrace anything and everything the world has to offer in the location of their choosing. I'd hate to think some never got around to getting them more useful citizenship or the best education possible. If you can't do that for your children IMO you have failed. I know others may disagree.

[smotherb]

Consider this scenario.

Not uncommon.

You tell all your friends and family in the west, I'm moving to Thailand to live for life. I'm selling my house, car, etc.

Then you show up again in two years or even ten.

Don't kid yourselves.

To those people, they will think you did not fulfill your intentions, regardless of the loaded word failure or not.

I think there are a lot of other issues which may arise. For example, I did not decide to come to Thailand to live for life. I maintain a comfortable, yet non-permanent, lifestyle. As I have done all my life, I visualize two buckets, one for money and one for sh*t; and I stay until one of the buckets gets full--if either one gets full, it's not a failure, it' simply time to leave.

[AYJAYDEE]

I'd like to know what the OP refers to as 'expat failure'.

What is his/her definition of 'failure' ?

I own a crappy old car, had two sprogs with a Thai woman who I haven't married, I live more of my time in Thailand then I do the West, so fair enough to be classed as an expat ... so ... did I 'fail'?

.

Can only be seen in hindsight really. Here's a test for anyone wishing to know if they did or could fail. If you died tomorrow will everyone you care about still be able to live their dreams, with all the options that may entail?

Unless that question is rhetorical, it is otherwise senseless. Barring that the expat in question has somehow disabled the minds, or hacked off the arms and legs of everyone he or she cares about, of course they would be able. The question would be, would they be willing? Given the ethereal nature of dreams, the answer could only lie in the hearts and minds of everyone left behind. Putting this degree of onus on the potentially deceased, is in a word, cruel.

Dreams wasn't the best choice of words but I do feel we obligate ourselves when we make people dependent upon us. I think those obligations include seeing them through to a place where they are no longer dependent.

I think you are looking at it too narrowly. Personally I would not even consider having a child if I didn't think I could help to position them to have the choice to embrace anything and everything the world has to offer in the location of their choosing. I'd hate to think some never got around to getting them more useful citizenship or the best education possible. If you can't do that for your children IMO you have failed. I know others may disagree.

so did your kids go to the absolute best university that they could qualify for?

[CapeCobra]

What does expat success look like? Teaching English for less than a grand a month, endless visa runs, and living in a toilet that you would never consider living in with a prostitue half your age? Because that looks like failure to me. I'd rather go home than end up worse off in South East Asia.

I've been an expat for way over a decade and the vast majority of expats I've encountered have "failed" by any sensible measuring stick.

Staying in a country doesn't make you a success. It's what you do with your life that determines that.

and you figure youre the one that has what it takes to decide if others are living a satisfying life? rather presumptious i must say.

Satisfaction is not the same as success. Check it in the dictionary if you don't believe me. Society has pretty clearly demarked the definition of success; my example clear doesn't meet that standard.

You may feel smug about not judging but that's what life does to us every single time we leave the house.

Nonsense: there is more than one definition. the accomplisment of any desired outcome is success!

Full Definition of SUCCESS

1

obsolete : outcome, result

2

a : degree or measure of succeeding

b : favorable or desired outcome; also : the attainment of wealth, favor, or eminence

3

: one that succeeds

About success:

A man was walking along the street when he saw a ladder going into the clouds. As any of us would do, he climbed the ladder. He reached a cloud, upon which sat a rather plump and very ugly woman. "Screw me or climb the ladder to success," she said.

No contest, thought the man, so he climbed the ladder to the next cloud. On this cloud was a slightly thinner woman, slightly easier on the eye. "Screw me hard, or climb the ladder to success," she said. "Well," thought the man, "might as well carry on."

On the next cloud was an even more attractive lady who, this time, was actually quite desirable. "Screw me now or climb the ladder to success" she said. As he turned her down and went on up the ladder, the man thought to himself that this was getting better the further he went.

On the next cloud was an absolute beauty. Slim, attractive, the lot. "Love me hard and long or climb the ladder to success" she flirted.

Unable to imagine what could be waiting, and being a gambling man, he decided to climb again. When he reached the next cloud, there was a 400 pound ugly man, arm pit hair showing, flies buzzing around his head.

"Who are you?" the man asked.

"Hello," the ugly fat man said. "My name's Cess!"

[lannarebirth]

.

Can only be seen in hindsight really. Here's a test for anyone wishing to know if they did or could fail. If you died tomorrow will everyone you care about still be able to live their dreams, with all the options that may entail?

Unless that question is rhetorical, it is otherwise senseless. Barring that the expat in question has somehow disabled the minds, or hacked off the arms and legs of everyone he or she cares about, of course they would be able. The question would be, would they be willing? Given the ethereal nature of dreams, the answer could only lie in the hearts and minds of everyone left behind. Putting this degree of onus on the potentially deceased, is in a word, cruel.

Dreams wasn't the best choice of words but I do feel we obligate ourselves when we make people dependent upon us. I think those obligations include seeing them through to a place where they are no longer dependent.

I think you are looking at it too narrowly. Personally I would not even consider having a child if I didn't think I could help to position them to have the choice to embrace anything and everything the world has to offer in the location of their choosing. I'd hate to think some never got around to getting them more useful citizenship or the best education possible. If you can't do that for your children IMO you have failed. I know others may disagree.

so did your kids go to the absolute best university that they could qualify for?

Yes, if you take into account cost differences for leaving the region. Still, top 20 worldwide. It's a lot of work over a long time and in our case required me to stop being an expat for a couple years to set it up.

[AYJAYDEE]

Yes, if you take into account cost differences for leaving the region. Still, top 20 worldwide. It's a lot of work over a long time and in our case required me to stop being an expat for a couple years to set it up.

no, i said the best

[John1thru10]

I'd like to know what the OP refers to as 'expat failure'.

What is his/her definition of 'failure' ?

I own a crappy old car, had two sprogs with a Thai woman who I haven't married, I live more of my time in Thailand then I do the West, so fair enough to be classed as an expat ... so ... did I 'fail'?

.

I think you are definitely not an expat if you live a large chunk of time in your home country every year.

The roots that real expats have cut, you clearly have NOT cut them.

But you're free to think whatever you like.

I would class thinking you're an expat when you are objectively not an expat as a lie that you tell yourself (and here others).

Not suggesting it is superior or inferior to be an expat or not ... that's your choice how you wanna live residence-wise, just keeping it real.

I pretty much already provided a definition of expat failure ... having clear intentions on foreign residency and backing off from them when faced with reality.

People can go overboard here and try to hijack this thread into being only about the use of the word failure.

That was not my intention in starting the thread, so if that does happen, I would say that's a sign of a failed thread attempt (with a little help from my "friends").

Cheers, dude.

The premise of this thread, seems to be you determining who is an expat or not, and who is a failure or not, and only for the sake of pointless debate; which is pretty immature. It's like if I started a thread now called 'Why do some posters start personal threads about things they could have easily determined for themselves in about 10 seconds if they weren't just trying to have pointless debates on a public forum?'

[me313]

I don't consider anyone a "failure" who can't cope with rising costs. I live in Phuket and I hear from Thai people that the cost of living is much higher. When I review YouTube videos of open air markets the prices of locally grown produce like coconuts has risen, the price of rent has risen, and it's not going to stop rising. If you live on a restricted budget, I say there is no reason to feel any sense of failure whatsoever in this regard.

[OmarZaidMD]

One big problem is they don't allow themselves an escape hatch - a bolt hole - when they burn out they are stuck in LOS

In general, Don't sell everything and move to Thailand is the moral.. keep a condo or a suite back home for if- when needed

Some expats cannot have this luxury, the at-risk ones sometimes off themselves as a result, feeling trapped in "paradise"..

"trapped in paradise" isn't the issue perhaps? I opine that the real issue is wher one chooses to hang one's hat. Paradise depends on what's under the hat eh?

[wlcart]

Living without purpose is a difficult thing to sustain no matter where you are.

[lannarebirth]

Yes, if you take into account cost differences for leaving the region. Still, top 20 worldwide. It's a lot of work over a long time and in our case required me to stop being an expat for a couple years to set it up.

no, i said the best

I hope I answered your question.

[AYJAYDEE]

Yes, if you take into account cost differences for leaving the region. Still, top 20 worldwide. It's a lot of work over a long time and in our case required me to stop being an expat for a couple years to set it up.

no, i said the best

I hope I answered your question.

your errors were noted

[Time Traveller]

56,411 posts on Thaivisa.....I think we all know here who the failed expat is.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Time Traveller

[mikebike]

Society has pretty clearly demarked the definition of success

In your 'society' does the success of a orphaned, developing-world child reaching maturity safely and in good health, then going on to live a healthy and personally rewarding life equal the success of privileged child graduating from schools then going on to lead a life of monetary and material growth?

[TheSiemReaper]

Society has pretty clearly demarked the definition of success

In your 'society' does the success of a orphaned, developing-world child reaching maturity safely and in good health, then going on to live a healthy and personally rewarding life equal the success of privileged child graduating from schools then going on to lead a life of monetary and material growth?

Are you trying to tell me that the majority of **** ups in this part of the world are Western orphans escaping care homes? I think you might want to recalibrate the advantages of growing up in the West and compare them to the disadvantages of growing up for most people in the 3rd World. Nearly every expat has had the benefit of a free education, free/subsidized healthcare, a decent diet, etc. the fact that they took all these advantages and turned them to living in a shack eating rubbish and drinking 20 lagers a day is not something to be proud of.

[Anon999]

It would appear to me that the expat failures that the OP mentions and their reasons/excuses are more relevant to Bangkok in particular than in the less frenetic parts of LoS. There is a local newsletter here, I'm in Isaan and excluding the part-timers the biggest loss to the community are those who have departed on their Last Posting. Very few have left permanently and none that I know personally.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Anon999

[Anon999]

Society has pretty clearly demarked the definition of success

In your 'society' does the success of a orphaned, developing-world child reaching maturity safely and in good health, then going on to live a healthy and personally rewarding life equal the success of privileged child graduating from schools then going on to lead a life of monetary and material growth?

Are you trying to tell me that the majority of **** ups in this part of the world are Western orphans escaping care homes? I think you might want to recalibrate the advantages of growing up in the West and compare them to the disadvantages of growing up for most people in the 3rd World. Nearly every expat has had the benefit of a free education, free/subsidized healthcare, a decent diet, etc. the fact that they took all these advantages and turned them to living in a shack eating rubbish and drinking 20 lagers a day is not something to be proud of.

Suggest you speak for yourself about "living in a shack, eating rubbish and drinking 20 lagers a day". There are always exceptions, however, there are none that I know of living in this vicinity of Isaan, a city of over 40,000, although we do have the odd recluse.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Anon999

[Time Traveller]

I don't think the word "Failed" is being used in the proper connotation. Any ex-pat from any Country that tries to live abroad will find out, if the place He has chosen will be "Home" to him. It is not so much that the ex-pat who decides, after a period of time that the chosen place to domicile did not live up to his expectations and decided to move back or out, was by any account a Failure by Him, but rather the chosen place failed to live up to his or her expectations. This can happen even after a rigorous investigation or a lengthy stay of the Country chosen as your final destination. There are 193 Countries, 61 Territories and 6 Disputed Territories around the Globe, so have your pick. I've been in the Kingdom for 11 years and have Zero thoughts of ever leaving. Thailand is not for everyone, so if you choose to leave, you just pack up and try another place. No big deal, Thailand failed to live up to your expectations. Anyhow, I've always said, "Home is where the Heart is". IMHO.

My theory is the OP likes to think others have "failed" to make him feel good about himself. Likely with no useful occupation for himself, the only way he can measure success or failure is that he looks at someone else who has decided to leave is determined to be a failure. Consequently, he is determined to stay in a place - liking or disliking it is not even a factor - as this is the only way he believes himself to be a success. And I'm sure you've all heard people like him saying things like : "I've lived here 10 years"..."I've lived here 20 years"...etc as if that is any measure of importance.

In reality the successfull people are the people that moved to better opportunities elsewhere.

[NeverSure]

Delete

Edited December 30, 2014 by NeverSure

[mikebike]

Society has pretty clearly demarked the definition of success

In your 'society' does the success of a orphaned, developing-world child reaching maturity safely and in good health, then going on to live a healthy and personally rewarding life equal the success of privileged child graduating from schools then going on to lead a life of monetary and material growth?

Are you trying to tell me that the majority of **** ups in this part of the world are Western orphans escaping care homes? I think you might want to recalibrate the advantages of growing up in the West and compare them to the disadvantages of growing up for most people in the 3rd World. Nearly every expat has had the benefit of a free education, free/subsidized healthcare, a decent diet, etc. the fact that they took all these advantages and turned them to living in a shack eating rubbish and drinking 20 lagers a day is not something to be proud of.

You said 'society' which I responded to. If you meant 'expat society' or 'western society' you should have said so... My point was that success is entirely subjective.

[Donnie Brasco]

My favourite success story here involves a once-young chap who'd had us all attend his Isaan wedding when the tart he married finally agreed to his overtures. I had the opportunity to speak with the local police official and his wife at the wedding. He actually rolled his eyes when I asked if he was related to the family.

In perfect English he filled me in.

The groom ?

Khun Eyes-Wide-Shut ?

Oblivious to all his bride's scams as long as he can be secured in the knowledge that various and sundry, all and every, anybody and everybody would like a bite of his tart.

"She's one of the good ones" he declared to me.

She and her family, however, were nothing less than a criminal investigation enterprise.

There were two or three daughters.

They sold off each daughter, first to a Thai, then to a farang and all the daughters were going on hubby number three.

Oblivious to all this, the success story has gone on to "wife-sharing" with a Slovakian MMA guy and various pursers and flight attendants, teaching English for an outfit that hasn't had a pay rise in a decade.

(From all reports, her Loy Kratongs and her Pi Mais and her Sonkrans are logistical nightmares with attendances at various water holes around the city with as many as three different swains. Hubby gets the Khlong Saen Saep attendance.) one of these guys, a frequent "guest" in the house "Trevor" built for her on over-inflated family land in Isaan has planted a mango tree in Trevor's front yard.

Her family approves.

(He'll never leave, though, will he ;-?)

You think Thais play the face game ? Well you haven't seen ANYTHING until you've seen a clapped out, balding middle-ager from 'over 'ome absolutely REFUSING to acknowledge that he, his nuclear family and on a daily basis his self respect are being cleaned out by the greedy, heartless psychopath he's "married".

Why ? He's spent so much time lording it over on his Blighty public school mates that he married one of Thailand's great beauties that he can't see the difference between her and some go-go bar queen that takes all comers.

Some guys will put up with anything to get a visa permissions to a jurisdiction that would expel them if they know the half of what he was up to in order to remain in his very own slough of personal ignominy.

[Jingthing]

Relating back to the actual content in the topic, referring to the linked article, the author mentioned LANGUAGE issues as something he has discovered as a major "real" reason for expats to return.

That's interesting to me living where I do in Thailand.

Frankly, in big expat centers in Thailand, if you speak English you don't really need to speak Thai to have basic communication with a large portion of locals not to mention the international crowd. It may usually be a low level of English but you can have some access to enough going on to meet most of your needs without any translator.

Thais know their language is difficult as well and are largely tolerant of foreigners who don't speak it.

Of course if you're working with Thais where Thai is required, you need it but you probably wouldn't have been hired in the first place without it.

In many expat targets in Latin America, the percentage of locals with basic English is definitely lower and it would be a much more serious problem to not make good progress with Spanish (or Portuguese when relevant). Locals there, to my knowledge, would be less tolerant of people not learning their language if they live there as well. You'd need to have a translator on call.

Now if you move to a more remote area of Thailand and you're not progressing in Thai, that's going to be a bigger problem.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Jingthing

[transam]

Relating back to the actual content in the topic, referring to the linked article, the author mentioned LANGUAGE issues as something he has discovered as a major "real" reason for expats to return.

That's interesting to me living where I do in Thailand.

Frankly, in big expat centers in Thailand, if you speak English you don't really need to speak Thai to have basic communication with a large portion of locals not to mention the international crowd. It may usually be a low level of English but you can have some access to enough going on to meet most of your needs without any translator.

Thais know their language is difficult as well and are largely tolerant of foreigners who don't speak it.

Of course if you're working with Thais where Thai is required, you need it but you probably wouldn't have been hired in the first place without it.

In many expat targets in Latin America, the percentage of locals with basic English is definitely lower and it would be a much more serious problem to not make good progress with Spanish (or Portuguese when relevant). Locals there, to my knowledge, would be less tolerant of people not learning their language if they live there as well. You'd need to have a translator on call.

Now if you move to a more remote area of Thailand and you're not progressing in Thai, that's going to be a bigger problem.

I live in Isaan for many years, can't pick up the lingo and don't really have a problem.

Must add, I am English, failed in English and French, passed in Cockney though...

Edited December 30, 2014 by transam

[Jingthing]

Relating back to the actual content in the topic, referring to the linked article, the author mentioned LANGUAGE issues as something he has discovered as a major "real" reason for expats to return.

That's interesting to me living where I do in Thailand.

Frankly, in big expat centers in Thailand, if you speak English you don't really need to speak Thai to have basic communication with a large portion of locals not to mention the international crowd. It may usually be a low level of English but you can have some access to enough going on to meet most of your needs without any translator.

Thais know their language is difficult as well and are largely tolerant of foreigners who don't speak it.

Of course if you're working with Thais where Thai is required, you need it but you probably wouldn't have been hired in the first place without it.

In many expat targets in Latin America, the percentage of locals with basic English is definitely lower and it would be a much more serious problem to not make good progress with Spanish (or Portuguese when relevant). Locals there, to my knowledge, would be less tolerant of people not learning their language if they live there as well. You'd need to have a translator on call.

Now if you move to a more remote area of Thailand and you're not progressing in Thai, that's going to be a bigger problem.

I live in Isaan for many years, can't pick up the lingo and don't really have a problem.

There is a story behind the story there I reckon. But happy you're doing well there.

[Gsxrnz]

Thailand gets boring after a while, I get bored towards the end of month long trips and can't imagine ever want to live there. Pretty sure many expats get bored after a while too.

Yeah I have to agree with you. I've lived in Thailand for 5 years and for four of those years have only taken a two week holiday back to my own country each year.

This year I decided to take a four week holiday and am here now. Been here 2 weeks and am buggered if I can remember what my reasoning was for coming for a month.

I think I'll stick it out for another week and than head home to Thailand a week earlier.