French man found dead in Koh Tao – incident being treated as suicide not homicide

[bangon04]

Well, good for him, seems like an honest guy - guess his chances of job enrichment and any further promotion will now be well out of the window, poor bugger!

Maybe the best thing we can do is make sure this news story gets published as widely as possible and is added to all the other criminal activities investigations the RTP is implicated involved in.

[timewilltell]

How does one tie string around their hands behind their back?

You tie your hands round your front and then step through them - after 12 hours of drinking it's simple.

Not when you have ropes that go around your torso several times strapping your arms to your body you don't. If you study and enlarge the picture you will see quite clearly. You can see the image on the democracyforburma website thanks to a link from AD. Zoom into the bottom image.

Edited January 6, 2015 by timewilltell

[timewilltell]

Before we start to develop our own conclusions based on how much drink we had or how much we like or dislike Thai government agencies I would suggest to read a book edited by Michael Tsokos MD who is I quote “Professor Michael Tsokos is the Director of the Institute of Forensic Sciences and Legal Medicine, Charite – Universitatsmedizin Berlin, in Berlin, Germany.

He is also the Director of the Governmental Institute of Forensic and Social Medicine in Berlin, Germany. He is the primary or senior author of more than 200 scientific publications in international peer-reviewed journals and the author as well as editor of a number of books dealing with topics of forensic pathology.

I wonder what he would have to say about it when reading the comments made by the armchair police officers here on this forum or the hobby pathologists.

Michael Tsokos was here after the Tsunami hit Thailand working side by side with international teams and Thai pathologists to identify the victims. No criticism from his end but only praise for their abilities.

The book contains contributions from pathologists from around the world and even Asia, which might shock the TV commentators. Reading these publications one might find that stranger things have happened as someone tying his hands and placing his head through noose to commit suicide. But that wouldn’t go down to well on this forum, would it?

Instead of that one prefers to insult the RTP and declare Thai pathologists incompetent. I find that pathetic.

I (and probably all of the TV posters) am not doubting the qualifications of Dr Tsokos, or his assessment of the work carried out by the Thai pathologists after the Tsunami. However, there was probably not much doubt as to the cause of death in the majority of the Tsunami victims, suicide certainly not being one of them. In this particular case, most people doubt that it was suicide because of the victim's hands tied behind his back, and also the cuts present on the body. Most posters would probably agree that It would be POSSIBLE for the victim to have inflicted the cuts on himself, tied his hands behind his back, put his head through a noose and hung himself, but is it PROBABLE? Especially bearing in mind that he had been drinking for more than 12 hours previously, and the possibility of a drunk man being capable of the "step through" technique described in previous posts seems unlikely. Add to that, the botched up RTP investigations into the murders of the 2 English backpackers, the contamination of the crime scene, the contradictory statements put out by very high ranking police officers, dubious DNA findings/results, and numerous substantiated reports of corruption in the highest ranks of the RTP, is it any wonder that people are a bit cynical about any findings?

Yes, I agree 100%. Thai User is comparing apples with pears. Both are fruits, but the scenario is completely different. The main difference is that after 12 hours or more of drinking the victim was able to carry out this 'suicide' as described. I would also suggest that Thai User familiarise herself with the murders of David and Hannah before making an ill-judged comment on this suspicious death.

My own opinion is that the RTP are willing to take the easy way out, whatever the cause of death. It could be suicide or it could be murder, but they don't care as has been proven before.

I might come as a shock to you but none of the TV commentators on this forum has familiarised themselves with the facts in any of the cases discussed here. Your comment that I make an ill-judged comment results from the fact that your mind is already made up. My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

As far as your suggestion goes to familiarise myself with the murders of David and Hannah I will wait for the conclusions the British police will draw when that report is released before passing judgement. I was not privy to the evidence at neither the crime scene nor the forensic investigation and from what I gather none the TV commentators had been part of the teams investigating the crimes.

Certainly I don’t deny anybody to have an opinion but opinions in most cases are based on emotions and in science emotions have no place only facts.

I don't think you quite understand the relationships between Thai Pathologists in the islands around there and the Thai Police around there!

[Bakeman]

Said this already. Now my reply is NO DUH !!! SMH

[ggt]

Finally...a Thai free thinker...in a position of authority... who is unafraid to say what many people have been thinking all along...

Hope he lives long enough to make a difference in his chosen profession...

[wotsdermatter]

Several times, in Canada, as a clinical psychologist, I have helped the police using forensic psychology to assist in profiling and resolving problems like this one. Usually, I was asked to form a team and go over everything before making any decision and all details had to be documented down to the very last detail. If that was not done then the report was laid aside and it had to be redone, although that only happened a couple of times. Scorn from peers for making mistakes is not a funny thing to wear and casts doubt on one's ability.

No comments, please as I will not reply due to being retired but just wanted people to know that there are procedures that must be followed, but that does depend on the country where it is being done.

[TomYumpoochai]

What about the guy tho? No info on friends? Was he on his own? Had he had any trouble in *that* bar? If it wasnt suicide then what led to him ending up like that?

[HeijoshinCool]

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist

BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

...

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

...

So they haven't even bothered to check his blood / alcohol level. Why am I not surprised? That would be the first thing to do to determine how drunk he was which would go a long way to verifying or disproving his ability to do this to himself.

.

BAC in post-mortems is not straight forward. It can be affected, up or down, in many ways.

The most reliable method (last I heard) is through extraction of vitreous humor from the eye. Somehow I doubt they did this. But if they did, the tests results take time.

Hence, the waiting for test results prior to announcing the case a suicide, homicide, or closed.

[HeijoshinCool]

How does one tie string around their hands behind their back?

You tie your hands round your front and then step through them - after 12 hours of drinking it's simple.

Not when you have ropes that go around your torso several times strapping your arms to your body you don't. If you study and enlarge the picture you will see quite clearly. You can see the image on the democracyforburma website thanks to a link from AD. Zoom into the bottom image.

.

How about sending me those photos?

[longtom]

Did anyone see the suicide note?

If there was a suicide note written in (assuming) perfect french, then the case seems to be pretty clear. No way any Thai on Koh Tao could fake a note like that, not even in english! (Not even talking about the handwriting)

That would be enough reason for the RTP to conclude it was a suicide.

Unless you believe the potential killers first forced him to write a suicide note and then tried to fake a suicide that looks like a murder (e.g. not cutting the ropes around his wrists). Does that really make sense to you? Really people, think about that.

[Anthony5]

Did anyone see the suicide note?

If there was a suicide note written in (assuming) perfect french, then the case seems to be pretty clear. No way any Thai on Koh Tao could fake a note like that, not even in english! (Not even talking about the handwriting)

That would be enough reason for the RTP to conclude it was a suicide.

Unless you believe the potential killers first forced him to write a suicide note and then tried to fake a suicide that looks like a murder (e.g. not cutting the ropes around his wrists). Does that really make sense to you? Really people, think about that.

There is a comment in this or the other thread that the suicide note was in French and Spanish.

No doubt somone on this forum will claim soon that Mon is fluent in French and Spanish.

[HeijoshinCool]

To the 3rd party poster who just sent me photos that I requested from timewilltell in my post #220; no, those don't show what is claimed by timewilltell in his post #213.

In fact, one of the photos I received a few days ago shows the front of the body from a point well below the waist, upward. The lower body is clad in fisherman's pants. The torso is unclothed.

There is no cord extending around the waist. No restraints or bindings at all can be seen in this photo. There is no indication visible that there ever was any binding around the "torso."

Post #213 is an "inaccurate" statement.

[Anthony5]

To the 3rd party poster who just sent me photos that I requested from timewilltell in my post #220; no, those don't show what is claimed by timewilltell in his post #213.

In fact, one of the photos I received a few days ago shows the front of the body from a point well below the waist, upward. The lower body is clad in fisherman's pants. The torso is unclothed.

There is no cord extending around the waist. No restraints or bindings at all can be seen in this photo. There is no indication visible that there ever was any binding around the "torso."

Post #213 is an "inaccurate" statement.

Come on don't spoil it now, everybody is confident that a Thai criminologist knows what he is talking about, because it floats their boat of conspiracy theories.

Anyone even bothered to look up what a criminologist is supposed to be knowledgeable about?

I looked it up. Nothing to do with Pathology or Forensics.

Job Description of Criminologists

Criminologists study a variety of factors to determine why criminals commit crimes. They consider psychological and social concerns, research data about crimes and arrests and study the background of the criminal to determine if any biological situations led him or her to commit the crime. While studying the criminal, criminologists unveil incidents that may have influenced their crime.

Given all this information, criminologists then create profile types for typical criminals, which are then used by other law enforcement personnel to evaluate future criminals. The data accumulated by criminologists is used to help law enforcers apprehend criminals more efficiently and to better assess their motives.

Criminologist Job Duties

Criminologists review criminal acts and assess a pattern of action, demographics and motivation. They may also report to a crime scene or an autopsy to determine whether a criminal falls into a specific category based on the nature of the crime.

They are usually required to write a report encompassing all of their findings. These reports are held on file and may be referred to when a similar crime is committed to compare criminals and crimes.

[Mooner]

Interesting how some people are quick to argue that the guy who allegedly fell off a cliff when drunk was an accident because he was inebriated and couldnt walk or control himself but a Frenchman can drink for 12 hours them tie his hands behind his back then hang himself

[Anthony5]

Interesting how some people are quick to argue that the guy who allegedly fell off a cliff when drunk was an accident because he was inebriated and couldnt walk or control himself but a Frenchman can drink for 12 hours them tie his hands behind his back then hang himself

To me it is a surprise that CSI TV didn't claim that the Thai guy who fell from the cliff wasn't murdered.

[ggt]

Make me wonder...if the police carry around pre-printed suicide notes in both Thai and English...would make their work so much easier...

[sabaitoo]

Did anyone see the suicide note?

If there was a suicide note written in (assuming) perfect french, then the case seems to be pretty clear. No way any Thai on Koh Tao could fake a note like that, not even in english! (Not even talking about the handwriting)

That would be enough reason for the RTP to conclude it was a suicide.

Unless you believe the potential killers first forced him to write a suicide note and then tried to fake a suicide that looks like a murder (e.g. not cutting the ropes around his wrists). Does that really make sense to you? Really people, think about that.

There is a comment in this or the other thread that the suicide note was in French and Spanish.

No doubt somone on this forum will claim soon that Mon is fluent in French and Spanish.

Interesting....The so-called friend you all claimed or imagined was representing the victims family, who wrote a few lines on CSILA..quoted a lot here, is actually Spanish....Interesting Indeed.... why would a Frenchman write some of his allegedly last words in Spanish...Thanks for the input Anthony5, you just added valuable information to the case

[vikingfromnorth]

Strange so many suicides in Thaialnd and many on Koh Tao - where the brits was murdered too - surely by thais but allways ready to blame their neighbour countrys for all bad things in Thailand

Many are " falling" from their condos. . after that a perosn is often seen leaving the condo.. no investigatio nno arrests

suicide. young people in their best age travel the half world around to take their own lifes

how realistic is that ?

thailand is suffering from paranoia - corruption - mafias - intolerance- - celebrate Hitler - but blame foreigners for anything they can fidn to hang their hat on

monkey brains

[timewilltell]

To the 3rd party poster who just sent me photos that I requested from timewilltell in my post #220; no, those don't show what is claimed by timewilltell in his post #213.

In fact, one of the photos I received a few days ago shows the front of the body from a point well below the waist, upward. The lower body is clad in fisherman's pants. The torso is unclothed.

There is no cord extending around the waist. No restraints or bindings at all can be seen in this photo. There is no indication visible that there ever was any binding around the "torso."

Post #213 is an "inaccurate" statement.

I can see the ropes fairly clearly but of course have no idea if the photo is genuine which is why I have not said that the police statement is wrong or otherwise. I am only looking at a photo that maybe is the person and if so there is no way he tied his own hands. Of course it may be someone completely different since it is a third party photo.

[Phuketboy]

Easy to say suicide as that would be the end of the investigation. How about the RTP pull their heads out of each other and actually do their job to investigate it properly. Maybe they don't know how because of their shit training? How can someone tie their hands behind their back and then hang themselves? Why would someone who wanted to commit suicide, go to these extreme measures? Way too many murders being passed off as suicides in this country.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Phuketboy

[kiwikeith]

Good to see some Thai's speak out against the RTP for once ... would be nice if they looked into all the foreigner "suicides" over the years to determine the real cause of death and who the perpetrators actually were (as if we didn't already know in most cases).

STRANGE COINCIDENCE, the man who fell to his death 50 m or so (no bruises) a while back only shortly after leaving the same bar the British couple were drinking in, and escorted home by family, judged (suicide by RTP) and now a Frenchman dead one hour after leaving a bar.

What seems to be is that a gang of murderers is operating without fear and females are obviously involved in this gang.

Probably the same gang that murdered the British couple and they operate without fear as every death is a suicide and if not then was committed by a Burma worker.

RTP should be looking for the one armed man (Richard Kimble) or a man called Iris.

[fabphil]

Yes another suicide case solved in minutes...

[thailandchilli]

Interesting how some people are quick to argue that the guy who allegedly fell off a cliff when drunk was an accident because he was inebriated and couldnt walk or control himself but a Frenchman can drink for 12 hours them tie his hands behind his back then hang himself

To me it is a surprise that CSI TV didn't claim that the Thai guy who fell from the cliff wasn't murdered.

What are you talking about

[lil fluffy clouds]

Well if they did their <deleted>*n job right and their reputation was at least 50 times better than what is then maybe we wouldnt need all this speculation going about. Because if the local bib are tainted or just plain lazy and incompetant posters will need to pickup on the slack, and that means exploring every possible angle. If this investigation is compromised in any way the situation will only get worse and one day it could be you....

[catweazle]

Oooops, looks like Koh Tao's crooks wouldn't get away with murder that easy in the future...

I can just repeat over and over again: "<deleted> Koh Tao !!!"

Boycott that cesspit and relax on beaches that are not owned by the mafia! There are plenty of them out there!

[micmichd]

Well if they did their <deleted>*n job right and their reputation was at least 50 times better than what is then maybe we wouldnt need all this speculation going about. Because if the local bib are tainted or just plain lazy and incompetant posters will need to pickup on the slack, and that means exploring every possible angle. If this investigation is compromised in any way the situation will only get worse and one day it could be you....

One day I'll be dead.

[HeijoshinCool]

To the 3rd party poster who just sent me photos that I requested from timewilltell in my post #220; no, those don't show what is claimed by timewilltell in his post #213.

In fact, one of the photos I received a few days ago shows the front of the body from a point well below the waist, upward. The lower body is clad in fisherman's pants. The torso is unclothed.

There is no cord extending around the waist. No restraints or bindings at all can be seen in this photo. There is no indication visible that there ever was any binding around the "torso."

Post #213 is an "inaccurate" statement.

I can see the ropes fairly clearly but of course have no idea if the photo is genuine which is why I have not said that the police statement is wrong or otherwise. I am only looking at a photo that maybe is the person and if so there is no way he tied his own hands. Of course it may be someone completely different since it is a third party photo.

.

I have been sent a number of photos over the last few days. All are high quality. None show any bindings around the torso.

When zooming in on a poor quality photo, sometimes it is easy to see something that is not there. Or, of course, the photo could be doctored.

There is no way to determine if the deceased tied the cord, or someone else, from simply looking at the photos.

[Oziex1]

I repeat don't go to Koh Tao, what's so hard about that!

Deprive these thugs of their income!

[micmichd]

I'm sure there are some killer farangs who would like to go there.

[spidermike007]

After over ten trips to the Dark Tao over the years, I will never again consider returning, and am making an attempt to convince everyone in my power not to visit, ever. It is an incredibly dark place, run by five piglet families, who own the police and ALL other authorities. Nobody will touch them. Not the big general, not the government, not the police. When crime families like these are above the law, the place reminds one of Chicago before Elliott Ness. That island is an extremely dangerous place. Visit at your own peril. Pass the word please. Withdraw all support to the pigs. Remember Nomsod the Terrible. Never forget David, Hannah, and the more recent murders.

Edited January 7, 2015 by spidermike007