17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[gemini81]

Can't manage to catch those who possess/make/sell fake passports and engage in people trafficking but nab a few would-be TEFLERS.

Yeah for sure. This one was much easier and required less balls than going after local mafia rings!

[khunpa]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

No, that is not okay.... BUT in my country a foreigner, can own a business 100% and is not obligated to hire 4 fulltime local staff to get a work-permit.

The laws here make no sense for online businesses and after all, this is 2015 and not 1980.

[sanuk711]

What were the two Irish nationals teaching ?..................

.

Irish Historians have found what they believe

to be the headstone of the oldest man to have lived.

He was 193 and was named Miles from Dublin.

Edited January 23, 2015 by sanuk711

[markt7081]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

[JLCrab]

A good example of how stupid and out of date the law is, when it comes to work permits. To get a work-permit requires hirering 4 Thais. So that company, would need 68 Thais on the payroll to make them coffee.

The law as it is now, just not only keep investors and entrepreneurs away, it also reduces the willingness for any company who needs foreign help, to grow their company here. With the current economical situation, you have to wonder, when Thailand will start to see foreign companies (where jobs are not taken from Thais) as an asset to the country.

This company, will simply just relocate and do business from another country. And the benefit for Thailand from that is??????????????

My suggestion for new acronym: DTR as in don't-they-realize?

[jspill]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

We'd give them asylum, a house, car, welfare benefits, voting rights, free healthcare, citizenship...

[Diplomatico]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

By the millions....

[squarethecircle]

Those dämned foreigners again.

They worked without a work permit. Is that ok in the country you come from?

Friend who operates UK-based online business applied for 6 month tourist visa, with the intent of promoting his business, inside the US. He was completely open about it and US immigration authorities said that if there was no money going through US banks and he was not working for a US entity, as far as they were concerned he was working in the UK, no work permit or special visa necessary.

[JoeLing]

Sure not "Digital Nomads" .
Digital office workers employed by a Thai company yes but sure not nomads.
Nomads move around, no fixed address, no fixed workplace apart from their PC.

As BOI 360 MAX clearly states in their adverts:

- Live and work in Chiang Mai!
- Willing to work in the office

OUR full time teachers will have a BASIC SALARY of 35,000 baht/month
Incentives will be provided so you'll have a chance to earn more!!
but they forgot to say - whilst in Thailand ;-)

The words OUR and SALARY makes me believe, those teachers are employed
by BOI360 MAX in Chiang Mai and are not earning money from abroad but are
full time working in Thailand with income from Thailand.

Although in defense of those highly intelligent teachers, BOI360 MAX did promise them:

-Work Visa

-Training

but seams those teachers didn't care checking if they had one. Suppose as long their
wages got paid [most likely in cash], the rest didn't matter.

Maybe those teachers should educate themselves first about national laws before
teaching others English

[FangFerang]

I didn't care about the online backpackers getting nailed. No work permit, bad visas...but they also nabbed 5 who had visas, permits but were... "in breach of work conditions" (ie. had side jobs). Um, that means all the boys doing part time work at Bangkok Malls and language centers after hours and on weekends are suddenly susceptible to arrest? I don't think so. I think they should be okay, but the Chiang Mai crowd here put up as poster children to improve education fell in with a group that was "not okay". Here in Amazing Thailand that means someone was not paying their tea money.

Nonetheless, the whole thing is a bit of a bad joke. I pay taxes and get most of it back every year. I have a work permit. But leading private schools hire South Africans on Ed-visas who never graduated high school and give them full time jobs. They seem to be safe, although illegally working and not paying taxes or even having the basic credential that is necessary to work at McDonald's, much less teach primary students. More MOE and Labour Ministry hypocrisy and laughable antics.

There is a lot more bovine fecal matter here than meets the eye.

[PingandSingh]

OK, and how can one be sure they were teaching English in China??????? Among them a German and Dutch national operating from Thailand? Hope the cops will check the computers and calls they made. Many boiler rooms in Thailand even in Chiang Mai. There is a nice movie on youtube about a heavely duped Aussie who followed all links he could find and arrived in...... well Chiang Mai. A CM rented room was the starting point to find victims all over the world.

[Tatsujin]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

There is no grey area, regardless of where payments are made/processed, regardless of whether the client is overseas or not, if you "work" in Thailand, you need the appropriate visa and work permit.

For all those here that DO comply with those laws, it's annoying to say the least to see others set up camp, undercut costs, and work illegally, cos they don't have the same business "expenses" as the ones doing things legally and correctly.

I don't like or agree with the current laws/regulations, they are far too restrictive (and expensive), but they are the law and to be legal, you have to abide by them.

[gemini81]

The Law Is The Law.

Break it and you can expect to pay the consequences. Trying to worm-out of it by suggesting it was only a Minor Offence, is like saying you are only a "little bit pregnant."

For those of us who do have, or when we were working, had a Work Permit, it seems only fair that those who "don't bother" with complying with the Laws of Thailand, should be BOOTED OUT!

Spokesman from North Korea?

[quandow]

My GAWD this sounds like one of the worst jokes EVER: Three Americans, a Canadian, a German, a Dutch national, two Irish nationals, two Britons and two Australians walk into a condo . . .

Or wait, let's try this another way - Three Americans, a Canadian, a German, a Dutch national, two Irish nationals, two Britons and two Australians walk into a restaurant and were refused service cuz they didn't have a tie (Thai, get it?) 555555555555

[ThePlant]

This seems to have riled a few who obviously haven't had to go through the proper route (occasional grind) to get a WP in Thailand and think they are above such trivialities while they pursue their 'free lives' here while they 'bend the rules' thinking they are so smart. Things like this bring home the frailty of their lives here with a bang. Good work by the authorities in CM.

[Jeremy50]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

Were you red in the face with self-righteous indignation as you typed this?

[aripengu]

I thought it was OK to work as a"digital nomad".

[chonburimaster]

Whether like it or not, law is law and they need to respect it. Also I guess nobody forces them to come to Thailand and work illegally. It is 100% their choice and responsibility. If somebody teaches Chinese in the US without proper visa, do you think the US immigration would just let you go?

Give me a break.

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

[rwdrwdrwd]

The decision making process by the creater of this company is extraordinarily bad. It appears to have taken the following path:

1 - I have a bright idea, whereby anyone that can teach english anywhere in the world can do so for Chinese students over the internet. I could make money on that.
2 - Because I live in Thailand, I will start a company there, despite high tax and beaurocracy. Customers can make international transfers to my Thai company bank account
3 - Despite the fact that my teacher/customer communication is conducted entirely online, I will set up an office with a load of desks and expensive computers in Thailand and an expensive internet connection that can support 17 simultaneous video chats reliably.
4 - I will seek out loads of foreigners that live in the local area by way of an adevert in local press. I will employ people that have no permission to work in Thailand for me, to come and travel every day to work illegally in my entirely unnecessary office, I will pay them under the counter.

This might have been more sensible:

1 - I have a bright idea, whereby anyone that can teach english anywhere in the world can do so for Chinese students over the internet. I could make money on that.
2 - I will set up a business in a country with low or no corporation tax and bank in Hong Kong, Chinese customers can pay to the HK bank
3 - I don't need an office.
4 - I will seek out talented teachers with a good internet connection to work from their home wherever in the world it is (except Thailand, China and HK). My HK co will pay them.

Edited January 23, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[TechnikaIII]

When the decision was made to capitalize the word from internet to "Internet", it was done so because it is acknowledged as a 'unique place'. So the argument for capitalization is simple: There is only one Internet, just as there is only one Alice Springs. The Internet may be made up of millions of elements, but so is the Great Barrier Reef. Therefor Internet is a proper noun and must have a capital.

This, along with many other language conventions, however, is being eroded by the USA, in it's simplification, or dumbing down the language, and still further by text messaging.

However, my point is that if you are working online, on the Internet, you are arguably not working in any sovereign territory, but in that 'other place'. Of course you need to access via the nation's service providers, wherever it is you may be. ( ... deep sigh .. )

I have web domains which are .co.uk , .com , and .eu , none of which have anything to do with Thailand. But of course we are facing the loss of Internet freedom with a new law which may soon be passed. (A very bad situation) allowing the government agencies to block anything they consider to be, whatever sort of threat. I can sit on a train and edit my web pages whilst traveling between countries, only changing sim card for each as I cross borders, or use local wifi if available. If I list an item on eBay whilst in England, and manage the sale whilst in another country, for example Thailand, this is for financial gain, however small. Theoretically I can be arrested, even if my PayPal account is registered somewhere else. The fact that I logging on from a bust stop in Korat, or a on a train to Bangkok, wherever ... "Hey !! Immigration Police! Look here! Farang making money!!"

As we know only too well, the ridiculous situation regarding visas and entry entitlements, where not only the various embassies all have their own ideas on what everything means, but the officers at borders can all do as they please, and make up any excuse to exclude you, or not even have an excuse at all - just stamp "Refused" on you application. If Thais can't sort this out, which should be simple enough, you can imagine the conundrums presented by the World Wide Web, and the scope for idiotic abuse.

Something I need to do from time to time is update a webpage. According to today's article, Could I also be arrested? .. were some little promotion-seeking jerk find out, and choose to make a name for himself?

Give us a break ....

Edited January 23, 2015 by TechnikaIII

[ben2203]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

I think had they worked from separate places, i.e. from home and not been in a shared facility then they would have been fine and nobody could prevent you from doing it. It's more or less the company's fault anyway for not getting the staff work permits, they were probably taking a significant cut for finding them clients so they should have sorted it out or not put the teachers in this position in the first place. Of course, as asking for work permits goes, it's not the easiest thing to do unless you have a government stamp but at least make a login system or something where the employee just works from home and pay for an internet connection though that probably has a lot to do with things too.

[beb]

As I recall, a few months ago the police raided another location and attempted to arrest a few foreigners for the same thing. In that case they found out they had no case while they were still at the scene.

[rwdrwdrwd]

As I recall, a few months ago the police raided another location and attempted to arrest a few foreigners for the same thing. In that case they found out they had no case while they were still at the scene.

It's not the same thing, there's a crucial difference. These teachers were employed by a Thai co and being paid in Thailand. That the end customers were in China is irrelevant. When I ring up my bank back home to get help from someone, they are not working for me, they are working for my bank back home - it's the same principle.

Had the teachers been working independently from home and being paid direct by the Chinese customers, that would be comparable.

Edited January 23, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[gandalf12]

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thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

Also happens to be the international language for business

[ThePlant]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

Were you red in the face with self-righteous indignation as you typed this?

Why would he be? Maybe he has had to jump through hoops to attain his status in Thailand and gets a little riled by people who think the system is there to be abused, and it is 'clever' to do so, until they get caught.

[Guest]

The Thai policy regarding English teachers would be a prime example if someone asked what it is in the mindset here that supports the concept that "when logic meets culture, culture wins."

No one want people crossing their border to take jobs away, be it physical labor or rocket science.

That being said, skilled English speakers are in very, very short supply in the Kingdom, and one might think that attracting and supporting teaching this valuable skill would create a special exception to a general rule.

If we were to gather 100 Thais who speak perfect English, 15 would be "born Hi So" who went abroad to college. Another 35 would be "came from a village - now "Hi So"... meaning those incredibly beautiful Sukhumvit 5 Star girls with the ultra rich Foreign partner.

45 more would be Bar Girls, and I mean the high price spread.

The last 5, hard working college students and business owners who really stuggled but did master the language.

Guess what they all have in common?

NONE OF THEM HAVE ANY INTEREST IN 30,000 THB TO TEACH ENGLISH.

[MobileContent]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

You are right Costas however the Online school was a registered company in Thailand if I read it correct and that would mean that for 19 farangs they should have hired another 100 Thai's.

They also didn't pay any taxes I guess.

[gandalf12]

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I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

You would be contributing to Thailand as you would be spending the money in the country.

[FritsSikkink]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime,

Working without a work permit is a crime.

[ATF]

It's hardly the crime of the century but it's still illegal. I wouldn't have thought this sort of operation would be too difficult to set up legally.

The Police have to pay their school fees for their kids too and with very few tourists and the low season on the horizon expect more of these incidents.