Noob questions about riding manual

[papa al]

To stop quickly pull on those hand lever thingies, push on foot thingies.

That's it.

Works on any bike.

Schwinn ==> H2.

Okay, la.

[Shurup]

@eisfed

Re: emergency breaking.

Pulling the clutch in and just kicking the shifter down till it stops clicking will take you to the 1st gear (obviously, lol), no need to count the clicks, and practicing e-breaks makes it perfect. Being ready to execute avoiding maneuver is as well important as the e-breaking itself, so it's important to not to stall the engine and be in the right gear to be ready to take off to avoid a possible collision from behind. Sometimes it's not even possible to come to a stop and the last second you may realize that you're not going to stop in time, so there's a choice to have a low speed collision or to try to avoid it (if at all possible).

I do not recall from my riding school if the instructor said to pull the clutch in right away and shift it into 1st, or to do that shortly before coming to a stop, but IMHO the engine breaking won't make a difference in the emergency. "A little bit more stopping power?" How about pushing a rear break a little more for that little extra stopping power? I'm trying to understand how engine breaking can help in this situation, but I can't. And lets not forget that the most work is done by the front (90% someone said) so out of remaining 10% how much difference the engine breaking will make? Not much me think.

Re: Diavel

That issue I was facing with my bike was after coming up very steep hill on (2331) in the evening before the long weekend, so there was a lot of traffic on the way up and it was barely moving in places. So my bike got hot, not overheated, but started running a little rough, by the time we made it to the top, we found out the area was so packed that we turned around and were on our way out. While up on a hill it did stall a few times when I let the engine idle with clutch in when sitting or slowly rolling in traffic. If keeping the RPM a little higher, it's fine. I don't know how it would behave in the city traffic, I live upcountry and don't travel through large cities often, but when I do, it never happened before or after the hill, even though it gets hot. It's a big engine and it needs moving to run air through the radiators.

I also read that it's running on the lean side at the lower RPM (emission BS), and I'm planning ordering a programmer and flashing a better map.

[dave_boo]

I think that a beginner is best off pulling the clutch.

It may not be the correct way (and to be honest I don't do it any more), but the shuddering of the engine as your speed drops can be a major concern to someone who is new on a bike. They are already in a stressful situation and adding to it seems a bit counterproductive.

Of course, this comes from a self-taught rider. It is definitely preferable to get professional instruction on a closed course. The cost of the training could very well pay for itself down the line.

[dave_boo]

@eisfed

Re: emergency breaking.

Pulling the clutch in and just kicking the shifter down till it stops clicking will take you to the 1st gear (obviously, lol), no need to count the clicks, and practicing e-breaks makes it perfect. Being ready to execute avoiding maneuver is as well important as the e-breaking itself, so it's important to not to stall the engine and be in the right gear to be ready to take off to avoid a possible collision from behind. Sometimes it's not even possible to come to a stop and the last second you may realize that you're not going to stop in time, so there's a choice to have a low speed collision or to try to avoid it (if at all possible).

I do not recall from my riding school if the instructor said to pull the clutch in right away and shift it into 1st, or to do that shortly before coming to a stop, but IMHO the engine breaking won't make a difference in the emergency. "A little bit more stopping power?" How about pushing a rear break a little more for that little extra stopping power? I'm trying to understand how engine breaking can help in this situation, but I can't. And lets not forget that the most work is done by the front (90% someone said) so out of remaining 10% how much difference the engine breaking will make? Not much me think.

Re: Diavel

That issue I was facing with my bike was after coming up very steep hill on (2331) in the evening before the long weekend, so there was a lot of traffic on the way up and it was barely moving in places. So my bike got hot, not overheated, but started running a little rough, by the time we made it to the top, we found out the area was so packed that we turned around and were on our way out. While up on a hill it did stall a few times when I let the engine idle with clutch in when sitting or slowly rolling in traffic. If keeping the RPM a little higher, it's fine. I don't know how it would behave in the city traffic, I live upcountry and don't travel through large cities often, but when I do, it never happened before or after the hill, even though it gets hot. It's a big engine and it needs moving to run air through the radiators.

I also read that it's running on the lean side at the lower RPM (emission BS), and I'm planning ordering a programmer and flashing a better map.

That was the good thing about the Ninja 250 transmission; take it down to first and nudge it back up. Wouldn't let you overshoot Neutral no matter what you tried.

[andreandre]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....anywhere and everywhere....some riders like four fingers on brake alone....its up to the individual....for a beginner this may take time to master,but any competent rider should cover at least the front brakes at all times {IMO}...immediately on realising that you are in a position of imminent danger you should ,simultaneously ,squeeze the front brake,[ not grab a handful] apply some controlled pressure to the rear brake, de-clutch and gradually increase braking pressure, moreso on the front for maximum tyre compression/grip...I also change down through the gears at the same without actually engaging the clutch fully, just enough to smooth change.., thereby ,if the opportunity comes where you can/need to power away from the danger zone, you are ready to go....frequent practice of emergency stops is very beneficial/neccessary in order to be capable if and when you may need to make an emergency stop.....the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Edited February 13, 2015 by andreandre

[dave_boo]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....anywhere and everywhere....some riders like four fingers on brake alone....its up to the individual....for a beginner this may take time to master,but any competent rider should cover at least the front brakes at all times {IMO}...immediately on realising that you are in a position of imminent danger you should ,simultaneously ,squeeze the front brake,[ not grab a handful] apply some controlled pressure to the rear brake, de-clutch and gradually increase braking pressure, moreso on the front for maximum tyre compression/grip...I also change down through the gears at the same without actually engaging the clutch fully, just enough to smooth change.., thereby ,if the opportunity comes where you can/need to power away from the danger zone, you are ready to go....frequent practice of emergency stops is very beneficial/neccessary in order to be capable if and when you may need to make an emergency stop.....the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Does the squeeze the front brake versus grabbing a handful apply now-a-days with ABS for maximum stopping?

I understand you don't want to lock up your front wheel, and that the advice you gave is good for non-ABS bikes, but does it still apply when the ABS systems are only bested by a professional rider after multiple attempts?

[mikebike]

'Covering' your brakes 100% of the time is way over paranoid. Long hauls would be a nightmare. Very wise in dense urban areas though.

Edited February 13, 2015 by mikebike

[dave_boo]

'Covering' your brakes 100% of the time is way over paranoid. Long hauls would be a nightmare. Very wise in dense urban areas though.

Au contraire mon ami. Being able to stretch your hand out (and varying the fingers covering the brake/clutch helps prevent cramps.

[mikebike]

'Covering' your brakes 100% of the time is way over paranoid. Long hauls would be a nightmare. Very wise in dense urban areas though.

Au contraire mon ami. Being able to stretch your hand out (and varying the fingers covering the brake/clutch helps prevent cramps.

Uhm, yeah, curl, stretch, remove, shake, place in crotch for warming, light a smoke, wipe my visor, zip-unzip jacket... too many reasons why 100% coverage is impossible and unnecessary on a long haul. 1-12 hours or more and I like using a throttle-lock so I can ride totally hands-free at times... to each his own.

Back to the topic now!

[Shurup]

Back on topic:

OP, don't read past the 1st page.

[Carol Jadzia]

Sorry I don't see how engine breaking will help with anything that a little more pressure on a rear break can't do, the rear breaking will only be efficient as long as the rear tire keeps traction and any bike's rear break can overcome that force. In case of bike with ABS breaks, you just jam your breaks and its as good as your breaking can get, engine breaking will help with nothing, and this adds to your previous comment that most of the breaking is done by the front breaks.

I'm trying really hard to understand the purpose of engine breaking during emergency, please elaborate and help me (and others) understand.

FYI, if I stall my bike's engine, the rear tyre will start skidding and it will not start again if I try to "push" start it while still rolling, so here you go - stalled engine - complete traction loss. Ducati Diavel.

It stalls sometimes when it gets too hot (never overheated though), it will start running very rough and in stop and go traffic when you sit part time sliding your clutch and part time rolling with clutch in, it dies, dropping the clutch will not restart the bike (this bike) and there was enough weight on the rear as I was riding with pillion.

Ok. 1st, thank you for letting me flex my brain cells on the subject of motorcycle control. Been a while since I had to do a full break down, but hey ho. Here goes.

Lets first establish what we are trying to do here. If you want to practice bringing the bike to a controlled stop. While also making sure you are in the correct gear to pull away. Then I totally agree with coming down the gears in turn. Maybe if someone is advanced enough, especially on a high CC Bike, then some talk about 'blipping' the throttle between gears as the clutch is in and you click down. to bring revs up to the lower gear. Now we could spend hours talking about theory on this subject alone.

However that was not the question. The question referred to Emergency stops.

We teach an emergency stop to be stopping as if someone has stepped into the road in front of you. So the most important thing that we are doing here is practicing stopping the bike as quickly as you possibly can safely and under control.

Now the easy answer when this question is asked (I have answered this hundreds of times) is to reply "engine braking".

This is normally enough to satisfy your average pod on a basic training course.

But of course, as with all these things, the actual facts are a little more complicated.

well you asked!

So whats the first thing? Close the throttle. after all you would not want to be applying power when you are slowing down.

Your throttle hand should be rolling the throttle closed as you go for the front brake.

Front brake coming on a fraction of a second before the rear brake - to transfer the weight of the bike down onto the front wheel.

The lifting this causes on the back end of the bike being the reason the back brake is not very efficient.

Now applying both brakes progressively to avoid any sudden jolting.

Clutch is still engaged at this point. The engine is slowing the rear wheel, engine braking does have a small effect, but so does the drive also stop it locking. But either way the effects are minimal really. But thats the point. This is about stopping, nothing else. We are practicing (or demonstrating on test) stopping short of a kid who has gone after a ball. Not running the kid over but not stalling the bike.

But rather than worrying about stopping the bike quickly. The advice is to start trying to select lower gears? I can get my ZRX 11 from 100mph to a stand still in under ten seconds. Even a big lardy harley is not going to be far past that. If we are doing this at an average 30 mph then in an emergency we are looking at stopping in just a couple of seconds. Now even the most technologically advanced Japanese gearbox has to work sequentially (it works best when you let the clutch out between down shifts) . This means that there is very little time, if non at all, to be worrying about what gear you are in.

In 100001 other situations then your braking is going to be different. In the wet, on a bend, gravel. heavy traffic. They all make a difference. I also totally agree that once you have stopped you are in danger and have to address that quickly. If the actual situation you are in has meant you could do a brisk stop but still manage to pull the clutch in and sort the gears. Great well done. Long as you did not run over the kid. Hold on a sec. So you are sat there, just short of the car that reversed out of it's drive without looking. What gear you in? You sure that's first? Or are you going to F*** about anyway just to make sure, or before you try and pull away in forth.

BTW this is not my theory. This is advanced theory road craft. Taught by advanced riders, Instructors and police forces around the world.

Police Motorcycle Roadcraft

[Carol Jadzia]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....

...the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Ok, the two above statements sort of cancel themselves out. The second I could not agree with more.

But <deleted> is the first about? Who taught you that bit of poppy cock?

First off do your friends complain that you are constantly flashing your brake light at them? Or did you remove the front brake light switch?

This is very

bad practice. Not that its a worry to you but thats a test fail for a start here.

What tends to happen under emergency conditions is first off due to the hands location you have to pull back before closing the throttle. Or the other common fault of opening the throttle as you go for the brake - not the best position to be in in an emergency.

It is also common for people to loose or seriously injure the fingers that are left behind the levers. As the lever is forced in it traps and damages whats between it and the grip.

This is a very common motorcycle injury. Very hard to ride with a broken finger after what might have been a simple dropped bike.

I have seen this happen many times. But that's bikers for you. never learn

[Carol Jadzia]

But engine braking in an emergency stop ... that's just too much detail for a new rider and not really relevant in an 'emergency'.

It is a legal requirement in the UK for everybody to do a Compulsory basic training course before being allowed onto the road on two wheels (+engine)

As part of that normally day long training course everyone must demonstrate they can do an emergency stop from about 15 miles an hour.

Before they get a full licence they must demonstrate it at 30 mph.

And I don't agree, it's only basic training. I teach it to 16 year olds.

[seedy]

In an emergency stop situation you will not have time to do anything more than try to stop. It is an emergency.

All this talk about shifting down, clutch released or engaged ... all moot.

Easy to do behind a keyboard. Lot harder on the road.

[papa al]

Carol.

For all your dogmatic blah, blah, blah, you fail to address the key counter-argument, iterated at least three times:

The rear brake can easily apply >100% of the force needed to slow the rear tire.

No need to complify with bucking engine 'braking.'

I read your 'don't ride with the brakes covered' argument in post 45 several times:

ad hominum; makes no sense; unsubstantiated BS.

Applying the brakes as soon as possible in an E is key, and moving a hand or foot to the actuator takes time, hence keep brakes covered.

Top instructors teach this.

[Don't worry, brake lights won't annunciate by just covering the brakes, pressure must be applied...sheesh.]

The last two paragraphs...huh?

You make funny joke, ya?

Critical thinking skills are clearly not requisite for obtaining instructor credentials.

Have you ever thought about entering politics, because you've got the blah, blah, straw-man, nonsensical-blah part down.

papa calls it as he sees it, sorry.

[Carol Jadzia]

Carol.

For all your dogmatic blah, blah, blah, you fail to address the key counter-argument, iterated at least three times:

The rear brake can easily apply >100% of the force needed to slow the rear tire.

No need to complify with bucking engine 'braking.'

I read your 'don't ride with the brakes covered' argument in post 45 several times:

ad hominum; makes no sense; unsubstantiated BS.

Applying the brakes as soon as possible in an E is key, and moving a hand or foot to the actuator takes time, hence keep brakes covered.

Top instructors teach this.

[Don't worry, brake lights won't annunciate by just covering the brakes, pressure must be applied...sheesh.]

The last two paragraphs...huh?

You make funny joke, ya?

Critical thinking skills are clearly not requisite for obtaining instructor credentials.

Have you ever thought about entering politics, because you've got the blah, blah, straw-man, nonsensical-blah part down.

papa calls it as he sees it, sorry.

Right I am sorry that you misinterpret my poor language skills with poor training skills.

But as for what I teach I suggest you take it up with the British Driver Vehicle Standards Agency and the British Police Rider Roadcraft Instructors.

Obviously we are all wrong.

[A1Str8]

Another thread successfully turned into a nonsense argument that has nothing to do with the original post.

[Familyonthemove]

The OP has now sold his bike and bought a Vios.

[andreandre]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....anywhere and everywhere....some riders like four fingers on brake alone....its up to the individual....for a beginner this may take time to master,but any competent rider should cover at least the front brakes at all times {IMO}...immediately on realising that you are in a position of imminent danger you should ,simultaneously ,squeeze the front brake,[ not grab a handful] apply some controlled pressure to the rear brake, de-clutch and gradually increase braking pressure, moreso on the front for maximum tyre compression/grip...I also change down through the gears at the same without actually engaging the clutch fully, just enough to smooth change.., thereby ,if the opportunity comes where you can/need to power away from the danger zone, you are ready to go....frequent practice of emergency stops is very beneficial/neccessary in order to be capable if and when you may need to make an emergency stop.....the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Does the squeeze the front brake versus grabbing a handful apply now-a-days with ABS for maximum stopping?

I understand you don't want to lock up your front wheel, and that the advice you gave is good for non-ABS bikes, but does it still apply when the ABS systems are only bested by a professional rider after multiple attempts?

I really don't know about 'grabbing a handful on ABS bikes TBH...My whole riding life i have used the squeeze for front braking and is second nature to do so....i have ridden ABS and as i often do at random is to practice emergency stops without even thinking about that aspect...smooth and controlled at all times...no harsh reactions..an old saying applies; "Fast riders have slow hands." .If i permanently rode ABS bike its possible that i may change my technique but going from ABS equipped to not ABS equipped and vice-versa as i do and finding oneself in a bad situation ,being in a mindset of grabbing a handful may well be your undoing if on that occassion i was on a non ABS bike..think i'll stick to my squeeze method.. PS i have no doubt that ABS do help in most situations..

Edited February 14, 2015 by andreandre

[andreandre]

Another thread successfully turned into a nonsense argument that has nothing to do with the original post.

Not in the original post but the OP himself asked this..#16.........

And advice on practising emergency stops though? Do I want to pull the clutch all the way in immediately, or leave it out a little to use the engine breaking?

[dave_boo]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....anywhere and everywhere....some riders like four fingers on brake alone....its up to the individual....for a beginner this may take time to master,but any competent rider should cover at least the front brakes at all times {IMO}...immediately on realising that you are in a position of imminent danger you should ,simultaneously ,squeeze the front brake,[ not grab a handful] apply some controlled pressure to the rear brake, de-clutch and gradually increase braking pressure, moreso on the front for maximum tyre compression/grip...I also change down through the gears at the same without actually engaging the clutch fully, just enough to smooth change.., thereby ,if the opportunity comes where you can/need to power away from the danger zone, you are ready to go....frequent practice of emergency stops is very beneficial/neccessary in order to be capable if and when you may need to make an emergency stop.....the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Does the squeeze the front brake versus grabbing a handful apply now-a-days with ABS for maximum stopping?

I understand you don't want to lock up your front wheel, and that the advice you gave is good for non-ABS bikes, but does it still apply when the ABS systems are only bested by a professional rider after multiple attempts?

I really don't know about 'grabbing a handful on ABS bikes TBH...My whole riding life i have used the squeeze for front braking and is second nature to do so....i have ridden ABS and as i often do at random is to practice emergency stops without even thinking about that aspect...smooth and controlled at all times...no harsh reactions..an old saying applies; "Fast riders have slow hands." .If i permanently rode ABS bike its possible that i may change my technique but going from ABS equipped to not ABS equipped and vice-versa as i do and finding oneself in a bad situation ,being in a mindset of grabbing a handful may well be your undoing if on that occassion i was on a non ABS bike..think i'll stick to my squeeze method.. PS i have no doubt that ABS do help in most situations..

Our discussion is a bit off-topic for the OP as he has a carb'd CBR150 which doesn't have ABS. It's still interesting to me at least. I have not been able to loft the rear wheel in a stoppie on either the CBR 150 nor the Ninja 250. Don't know if that's because I am chickenshit (not applying enough force-I think this is more likely) or the brake system just isn't up to it with my ample weight holding down the other end of the bike. On the 500X the bike stops in a very short distance in my experience when I try to make the brake lever part of the handlebar.

[zlodnick]

Very interesting thread. Ive been doing alot of skidding in quick stops lately and I was thinking it was the rear tire. Now, I think Ive been hitting the rear brake too hard. I thought I was applying the front brake with equal pressure, but now not sure.

I will definately be doing some test braking before any more rides.

Thanks

[andreandre]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....anywhere and everywhere....some riders like four fingers on brake alone....its up to the individual....for a beginner this may take time to master,but any competent rider should cover at least the front brakes at all times {IMO}...immediately on realising that you are in a position of imminent danger you should ,simultaneously ,squeeze the front brake,[ not grab a handful] apply some controlled pressure to the rear brake, de-clutch and gradually increase braking pressure, moreso on the front for maximum tyre compression/grip...I also change down through the gears at the same without actually engaging the clutch fully, just enough to smooth change.., thereby ,if the opportunity comes where you can/need to power away from the danger zone, you are ready to go....frequent practice of emergency stops is very beneficial/neccessary in order to be capable if and when you may need to make an emergency stop.....the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Does the squeeze the front brake versus grabbing a handful apply now-a-days with ABS for maximum stopping?

I understand you don't want to lock up your front wheel, and that the advice you gave is good for non-ABS bikes, but does it still apply when the ABS systems are only bested by a professional rider after multiple attempts?

I really don't know about 'grabbing a handful on ABS bikes TBH...My whole riding life i have used the squeeze for front braking and is second nature to do so....i have ridden ABS and as i often do at random is to practice emergency stops without even thinking about that aspect...smooth and controlled at all times...no harsh reactions..an old saying applies; "Fast riders have slow hands." .If i permanently rode ABS bike its possible that i may change my technique but going from ABS equipped to not ABS equipped and vice-versa as i do and finding oneself in a bad situation ,being in a mindset of grabbing a handful may well be your undoing if on that occassion i was on a non ABS bike..think i'll stick to my squeeze method.. PS i have no doubt that ABS do help in most situations..

Our discussion is a bit off-topic for the OP as he has a carb'd CBR150 which doesn't have ABS. It's still interesting to me at least. I have not been able to loft the rear wheel in a stoppie on either the CBR 150 nor the Ninja 250. Don't know if that's because I am chickenshit (not applying enough force-I think this is more likely) or the brake system just isn't up to it with my ample weight holding down the other end of the bike. On the 500X the bike stops in a very short distance in my experience when I try to make the brake lever part of the handlebar.

Stoppies are for stunt riders let them do it...i would think that there would be needed a lot of rider input , along with the right combination of good sticky tyre ,great brakes, good road surface and practice to do this stunt...Better race bikes can get the rear wheel off when hard braking [they don't neccessarily want it off] also because of the massive stopping abilities of their brakes and tyre grip that they have.....hone your more neccessary riding skills and ride, ride, ride..[there is no substitute at all for the experience of hours and hour and thousands of k's of bum on seat] and practice regularly emergency stops in all conditions, and bike attitudes ie cornering, or uphill, downhill.....know what you and your bike can do ,and do it without thinking if and when you are faced with a bad situation......

[taninthai]

Very interesting thread. Ive been doing alot of skidding in quick stops lately and I was thinking it was the rear tire. Now, I think Ive been hitting the rear brake too hard. I thought I was applying the front brake with equal pressure, but now not sure.

I will definately be doing some test braking before any more rides.

Thanks

solution dont pull the clutch in until the last minute ,the back wheel will always easily lock up if on the back brake and clutch pulled in....

on another note i have always ridden with 2 fingers covering the front brake...problem i have now is doing trackdays i am trying to not cover the front brake and it don't feel comfortable at all..

[dave_boo]

Stoppies are for stunt riders let them do it...i would think that there would be needed a lot of rider input , along with the right combination of good sticky tyre ,great brakes, good road surface and practice to do this stunt...Better race bikes can get the rear wheel off when hard braking [they don't neccessarily want it off] also because of the massive stopping abilities of their brakes and tyre grip that they have.....hone your more neccessary riding skills and ride, ride, ride..[there is no substitute at all for the experience of hours and hour and thousands of k's of bum on seat] and practice regularly emergency stops in all conditions, and bike attitudes ie cornering, or uphill, downhill.....know what you and your bike can do ,and do it without thinking if and when you are faced with a bad situation......

Don't misunderstand me; I don't try and do stoppies. But it is the penultimate example of applying too much front brake (the absolute example would be a rear tyre over the front). After all, there's a lot of reasons that a front tyre can lose traction under braking; bad compound, too much wear, road surface conditions, etc. that is actually below the maximum amount that the brakes are able to be applied.

As an aside, during my research into all this I came across the fact that MSF recommends keeping the rear tyre locked (if it happens) under braking as it regaining traction could result in a high sider. So it would seem to me, again as merely a self-taught rider, that it would be best to simply clutch when emergency stopping.

[papa al]

I've done inadvertent stoppies twice.

(When you gotta stop, you gotta stop.)

First on citybikeracer150 from ~35kph on Sukumvit,

and once @ ~20 on Soi Bukaw on Raider.

Avoided collisions by inches.

I remember thinkin' "WOW."

The first time no clutch and when the wheel came back down, it stalled.

But I'm quick on the e-start.

2nd time, clutch and casual ride off after wee doggie narrowly escaped death by Michelin.

What does Médecins Sans Frontières have to do with biking?

Edited February 14, 2015 by papa al

[andreandre]

First and foremost a rider must learn to 'cover the brakes' ...myself,i have always ridden two fingers permanently on brake lever and clutch lever....

...the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required.

Ok, the two above statements sort of cancel themselves out. The second I could not agree with more.

But <deleted> is the first about? Who taught you that bit of poppy cock?

First off do your friends complain that you are constantly flashing your brake light at them? Or did you remove the front brake light switch?

This is very

bad practice. Not that its a worry to you but thats a test fail for a start here.

What tends to happen under emergency conditions is first off due to the hands location you have to pull back before closing the throttle. Or the other common fault of opening the throttle as you go for the brake - not the best position to be in in an emergency.

It is also common for people to loose or seriously injure the fingers that are left behind the levers. As the lever is forced in it traps and damages whats between it and the grip.

This is a very common motorcycle injury. Very hard to ride with a broken finger after what might have been a simple dropped bike.

I have seen this happen many times. But that's bikers for you. never learn

Firstly.,i'm glad that you agree with this; ......

...the more competent you are in all aspects of bike roadcraft the less likely you are to be in a predicament where emergency braking is required. ..gives you a bit of cred.;

But 2nd where you say this makes me wonder about your experience in real life.

..." But <deleted> is the first about? Who taught you that bit of poppy cock?

First off do your friends complain that you are constantly flashing your brake light at them? Or did you remove the front brake light switch?

Poppycock??? Covering your brakes saves precious time in emergency braking situation..Yes? As for flashing brakelight?? what are you on about ? There is no pressure on the lever at all to activate the brakelight...and no, i did not remove the switch....[bizarre comments from you ] so, no, friends are not complaining about flashing brakelight...You are supposedly an experienced rider and yet you don't have a clue what ''covering the brakes means" ..Bad practice?? now that is poppycock .

As for the rest of your post..again???? Opening the throttle when you go for the brake..How can this be done?? Myself i ride two fingers resting on brake lever and hooked over at first joint..when i brake at any time [not just E braking] as i roll the throttle closed my fingers automatically slide forward and then the 2nd joint is applying as much brake pressure as i need ..sseasy..try it sometime.

All in one step..closed throttle and as much brake as i need... PS ...as i type this i see that i have all four fingers on my right hand..none chopped off and or broken in 700,000 k's of riding..amazing that!

mike bike.. regarding covering the levers...mate i am far from paranoid, probably one of the least paranoid riders i know of ....i'll add a bit here...whenever my hands are on the bars, which is not 100% of the time , for sure,then i automatically assume the position as i said above.. i have done so for 50 years now and is just the way i do it, an old habit, in fact i can never remember not doing it....i don't even think about it...if all levers ,bars etc are in the correct place for me my hands just sit like that.as soon as i get on a bike....an added bonus is, of course that you are ''brake ready" at all times.. as for E braking, tho i practice this and many other roadcrafts frequently, i have very rarely had to do an emergency stop for real..once or twice maybe...

Edited February 15, 2015 by andreandre

[andreandre]

Very interesting thread. Ive been doing alot of skidding in quick stops lately and I was thinking it was the rear tire. Now, I think Ive been hitting the rear brake too hard. I thought I was applying the front brake with equal pressure, but now not sure.

I will definately be doing some test braking before any more rides.

Thanks

solution dont pull the clutch in until the last minute ,the back wheel will always easily lock up if on the back brake and clutch pulled in....

on another note i have always ridden with 2 fingers covering the front brake...problem i have now is doing trackdays i am trying to not cover the front brake and it don't feel comfortable at all..

So....why change your braking style, just because you are doing track days? That doesn't make sense at all...you should be just as comfortable and relaxed [ even moreso in fact ]

[taninthai]

^

because I'm am whacking it out to full throttle on the track more often it seems a little awkward sometimes when covering the front brake ,think a quick action throttle may help me on this..

[BKKBike09]

Sweet, read through all that and feel a lot clearer now. Just need to put some km under my belt and try and get the feel of the bike bearing those numbers in mind.

And advice on practising emergency stops though? Do I want to pull the clutch all the way in immediately, or leave it out a little to use the engine breaking?

I'd leave it out till you're almost stopped. But frankly getting comfortable with how the bike feels when you really have to stop hard should be the priority.

What condition are your tyres, pads and front disc? If they look like replacing might be a good idea to do that before getting too aggressive with the practice. Also check the pressures are okay.

You can also try emergency stops when the tyres are cold as well as when they're warmed up. Can make a lot of difference to tyre grip.

Good luck and stay safe.