Alone at controls, co-pilot sought to 'destroy' the plane

[NeverSure]

This crash certainly raises some interesting questions. The first

of course is the mental stability of the members of the cockpit

crew. Assessing mental issues is an inexact science at best,

and this guy certainly slipped through the cracks.

So the next issue is how can the aircraft manufacturers

make a plane that can protect itself against a rogue pilot. I

know that Airbus to some degree has the onboard computer

make sure the plane is flying within certain parameters and

will not allow those to be over ridden. Am sure there are

some pilots here that could explain that in a more clear

fashion. It sure seems to me that every flight in essence

operates within clear guidelines regarding speed, course,

and altitude. These of course could be programmed into

the flight computer. So if a rogue pilot grabbed the wheel

and tried to fly the plane straight into the ground because

he wants to meet Allah, the plane should refuse ......I know

this is the last thing any professional pilot wants to hear,

but to me it sort of makes sense. With of course some sort

of override system in place as well, perhaps a code that

both pilots would have to enter ,or something online as

future aircraft will be connected to the internet for data recording....

Anyway I suspect that Boeing and Airbus are having

meetings about this very subject right now.............With a bit

of research you will quickly realize that this is not the first time

a rogue pilot to kill everyone on the plane.

First, flying is already very safe despite our horror about this event. I don't think it's possible to get 100%. If it was possible humans would have to be taken out of the equation and even then you'd have to trust the guy who programmed the computers.

There were far more deaths on highways that week, but there's just something inherently horrific when an airliner goes down.

I would like to see them revisit the concept of that cabin door which I'm sure they are, but we've always had nutters killing people.

[EyesWideOpen]

This crash certainly raises some interesting questions. The first

of course is the mental stability of the members of the cockpit

crew. Assessing mental issues is an inexact science at best,

and this guy certainly slipped through the cracks.

So the next issue is how can the aircraft manufacturers

make a plane that can protect itself against a rogue pilot. I

know that Airbus to some degree has the onboard computer

make sure the plane is flying within certain parameters and

will not allow those to be over ridden. Am sure there are

some pilots here that could explain that in a more clear

fashion. It sure seems to me that every flight in essence

operates within clear guidelines regarding speed, course,

and altitude. These of course could be programmed into

the flight computer. So if a rogue pilot grabbed the wheel

and tried to fly the plane straight into the ground because

he wants to meet Allah, the plane should refuse ......I know

this is the last thing any professional pilot wants to hear,

but to me it sort of makes sense. With of course some sort

of override system in place as well, perhaps a code that

both pilots would have to enter ,or something online as

future aircraft will be connected to the internet for data recording....

Anyway I suspect that Boeing and Airbus are having

meetings about this very subject right now.............With a bit

of research you will quickly realize that this is not the first time

a rogue pilot to kill everyone on the plane.

First, flying is already very safe despite our horror about this event. I don't think it's possible to get 100%. If it was possible humans would have to be taken out of the equation and even then you'd have to trust the guy who programmed the computers.

There were far more deaths on highways that week, but there's just something inherently horrific when an airliner goes down.

I would like to see them revisit the concept of that cabin door which I'm sure they are, but we've always had nutters killing people.

I fully agree. I am a private pilot, and my brother used to own a Part 135 operation. And yes,

the drive to the airport is statistically more dangerous than the flight. Long haul anyway, commuter airlines have a bit more of a spotty record...... And yes, I have thought the concept of the locking cabin door could do with a rethink. Or certainly a better override system than the pilot frantically trying to cut through it with an ax in front of horrified passengers. Am still stunned he had an

axe. Are those hidden away somewhere in the plane ?? Secret survival equipment ??

[micmichd]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

Edited March 29, 2015 by micmichd

[beechguy]

This crash certainly raises some interesting questions. The first

of course is the mental stability of the members of the cockpit

crew. Assessing mental issues is an inexact science at best,

and this guy certainly slipped through the cracks.

So the next issue is how can the aircraft manufacturers

make a plane that can protect itself against a rogue pilot. I

know that Airbus to some degree has the onboard computer

make sure the plane is flying within certain parameters and

will not allow those to be over ridden. Am sure there are

some pilots here that could explain that in a more clear

fashion. It sure seems to me that every flight in essence

operates within clear guidelines regarding speed, course,

and altitude. These of course could be programmed into

the flight computer. So if a rogue pilot grabbed the wheel

and tried to fly the plane straight into the ground because

he wants to meet Allah, the plane should refuse ......I know

this is the last thing any professional pilot wants to hear,

but to me it sort of makes sense. With of course some sort

of override system in place as well, perhaps a code that

both pilots would have to enter ,or something online as

future aircraft will be connected to the internet for data recording....

Anyway I suspect that Boeing and Airbus are having

meetings about this very subject right now.............With a bit

of research you will quickly realize that this is not the first time

a rogue pilot to kill everyone on the plane.

First, flying is already very safe despite our horror about this event. I don't think it's possible to get 100%. If it was possible humans would have to be taken out of the equation and even then you'd have to trust the guy who programmed the computers.

There were far more deaths on highways that week, but there's just something inherently horrific when an airliner goes down.

I would like to see them revisit the concept of that cabin door which I'm sure they are, but we've always had nutters killing people.

I fully agree. I am a private pilot, and my brother used to own a Part 135 operation. And yes,

the drive to the airport is statistically more dangerous than the flight. Long haul anyway, commuter airlines have a bit more of a spotty record...... And yes, I have thought the concept of the locking cabin door could do with a rethink. Or certainly a better override system than the pilot frantically trying to cut through it with an ax in front of horrified passengers. Am still stunned he had an

axe. Are those hidden away somewhere in the plane ?? Secret survival equipment ??

I mentioned it earlier, but the axe was probably in the emergency equipment, as is other equipment in overland and overwater survival kits. I wouldn't call it secret, but generally not available to the passengers.

As to other limitations of the control of the aircraft, there are a number of things that are automated in these modern aircraft. But, I don't want to be in one crashing, because the pilot couldn't bank sharply enough to avoid a collision, because he was limited by a computer.

[beechguy]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

[EyesWideOpen]

This crash certainly raises some interesting questions. The first

of course is the mental stability of the members of the cockpit

crew. Assessing mental issues is an inexact science at best,

and this guy certainly slipped through the cracks.

So the next issue is how can the aircraft manufacturers

make a plane that can protect itself against a rogue pilot. I

know that Airbus to some degree has the onboard computer

make sure the plane is flying within certain parameters and

will not allow those to be over ridden. Am sure there are

some pilots here that could explain that in a more clear

fashion. It sure seems to me that every flight in essence

operates within clear guidelines regarding speed, course,

and altitude. These of course could be programmed into

the flight computer. So if a rogue pilot grabbed the wheel

and tried to fly the plane straight into the ground because

he wants to meet Allah, the plane should refuse ......I know

this is the last thing any professional pilot wants to hear,

but to me it sort of makes sense. With of course some sort

of override system in place as well, perhaps a code that

both pilots would have to enter ,or something online as

future aircraft will be connected to the internet for data recording....

Anyway I suspect that Boeing and Airbus are having

meetings about this very subject right now.............With a bit

of research you will quickly realize that this is not the first time

a rogue pilot to kill everyone on the plane.

First, flying is already very safe despite our horror about this event. I don't think it's possible to get 100%. If it was possible humans would have to be taken out of the equation and even then you'd have to trust the guy who programmed the computers.

There were far more deaths on highways that week, but there's just something inherently horrific when an airliner goes down.

I would like to see them revisit the concept of that cabin door which I'm sure they are, but we've always had nutters killing people.

I fully agree. I am a private pilot, and my brother used to own a Part 135 operation. And yes,

the drive to the airport is statistically more dangerous than the flight. Long haul anyway, commuter airlines have a bit more of a spotty record...... And yes, I have thought the concept of the locking cabin door could do with a rethink. Or certainly a better override system than the pilot frantically trying to cut through it with an ax in front of horrified passengers. Am still stunned he had an

axe. Are those hidden away somewhere in the plane ?? Secret survival equipment ??

I mentioned it earlier, but the axe was probably in the emergency equipment, as is other equipment in overland and overwater survival kits. I wouldn't call it secret, but generally not available to the passengers.

As to other limitations of the control of the aircraft, there are a number of things that are automated in these modern aircraft. But, I don't want to be in one crashing, because the pilot couldn't bank sharply enough to avoid a collision, because he was limited by a computer.

Granted.... Certainly so in the case of Air France flight 296 crash. Pretty embarassing for

Airbus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

"The crew applied full power and the pilot attempted to climb. However, the elevators did not respond to the pilot's commands, because the A320 computer system engaged its 'alpha protection' mode (meant to prevent the aircraft entering a stall.) Less than five seconds later, the turbines began ingesting leaves and branches as the aircraft skimmed the tops of the trees. The combustion chambers clogged up and the engines failed. The aircraft fell to the ground."

[NeverSure]

Granted.... Certainly so in the case of Air France flight 296 crash. Pretty embarassing for

Airbus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

"The crew applied full power and the pilot attempted to climb. However, the elevators did not respond to the pilot's commands, because the A320 computer system engaged its 'alpha protection' mode (meant to prevent the aircraft entering a stall.) Less than five seconds later, the turbines began ingesting leaves and branches as the aircraft skimmed the tops of the trees. The combustion chambers clogged up and the engines failed. The aircraft fell to the ground."

When an airplane crashes it's almost always a combination of things which compounded leading up to the crash. Airplanes don't, without other reasons, just fall out of the sky.

With a generic 296 type incident it would be pretty obvious that the pilots had the plane where it shouldn't be and that might be traced back to lack of training or planning or to partying in the cabin or not paying attention to the radios which might be caused by pilots not getting enough sleep or being hung over or...

Something would put it where it wasn't supposed to be without enough altitude or power and that usually began happening a lot earlier.

[Tywais]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

My understanding since 9/11 no axes are kept on board most carriers but a crowbar is.

Skylibrary

Desperate plane captain tried to break down cockpit door with a crowbar Mailonline

[khaosai]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

Interesting point as I am not aware of an axe in the passenger cabin of the aircraft I fly. Different airlines and aircraft I guess means different requirements.

[Commerce]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

I see there are posters on TV with more severe mental problems that Lubitz had himself!

[EyesWideOpen]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

I see there are posters on TV with more severe mental problems that Lubitz had himself!

From the Washington Post. So agreed, it is a bit mysterious how the captain could suddenly

have an ax in his hand trying to beat down the door.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/reports-desperate-pilot-used-ax-on-locked-cockpit-door-of-doomed-plane/2015/03/27/d89a10a2-d492-11e4-ab77-9646eea6a4c7_story.html

"The reports, in French and German media outlets, could not be independently verified. Typically, however, the ax is located inside the cockpit of an A320, pilots familiar with the aircraft said, and it was unclear how the locked-out pilot would have had access to the tool."

Edited March 29, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[NeverSure]

There's so much conflicting "expert" info about an axe that I'm going to wait for the dust to settle. I don't however think the the recording would prove it's an axe.

I'm not going to post links because there are so many. Some say no axes on planes now, some say the axe would be in the cockpit, some say crowbars are only in the cabin and some say in the cockpit.

To me the truth of that isn't important right now other than the captain was apparently yelling and hammering on the door with something.

I don't know what happened yet.

[beechguy]

According to Telegraph, the axe is in the cockpit.

So, the captain must have taken it out.

Mysterious flight indeed.

Interesting point as I am not aware of an axe in the passenger cabin of the aircraft I fly. Different airlines and aircraft I guess means different requirements.

I have my doubts that the Captain would exit the cockpit, if he thought it would be necessary to use an axe to gain entry.

As to axes, etc., it can vary by carrier and the regulatory agency they operate under. According to an Airbus, Flight Operations Briefing Note, Managing In Flight Fires, Item IV.3, a fire axe is mentioned, the revision date for that briefing is Rev.1, 2006. It didn't mention the location.

I have packed several overland survival kits that included a machete type tool. I haven't packed one for an Airbus product, but that equipment, would be most likely mandated by a carrier.

Edited March 29, 2015 by beechguy

[englishoak]

There's so much conflicting "expert" info about an axe that I'm going to wait for the dust to settle. I don't however think the the recording would prove it's an axe.

I'm not going to post links because there are so many. Some say no axes on planes now, some say the axe would be in the cockpit, some say crowbars are only in the cabin and some say in the cockpit.

To me the truth of that isn't important right now other than the captain was apparently yelling and hammering on the door with something.

I don't know what happened yet.

Lets be honest the captain probably grabbed whatever he could, maybe crutches or walking stick, hell anything even remotely heavy in sight.

Edited March 29, 2015 by englishoak

[slightlychilled]

How on earth can anyone believe the pilot was using an axe ? who on earth can confirm this ?

This discussion is a perfect example of a rumour not only escalating into a fact but instigating a further discussion based on pure fiction. i.e. where did this non-existent axe appear from, where was it kept.

[micmichd]

How on earth can anyone believe the pilot was using an axe ? who on earth can confirm this ?

This discussion is a perfect example of a rumour not only escalating into a fact but instigating a further discussion based on pure fiction. i.e. where did this non-existent axe appear from, where was it kept.

You're right, not one witness.

Edited March 30, 2015 by micmichd

[EyesWideOpen]

How on earth can anyone believe the pilot was using an axe ? who on earth can confirm this ?

This discussion is a perfect example of a rumour not only escalating into a fact but instigating a further discussion based on pure fiction. i.e. where did this non-existent axe appear from, where was it kept.

Because.......virtually every news outlet is saying an axe was used, and Germanwings

has stated an axe is part of the emergency equipment on an Airbus 320. The usage of

the axe is interesting because it represented the last chance for the captain to regain

control of the plane and save everybody's life. But apparently those doors are pretty

tough. Since you seem to need concrete proof, you will just have to wait while the

wreckage is combed through and the axe is found......

Edited March 30, 2015 by EyesWideOpen

[kiwikeith]

kiwikeith you've obviously got an axe to grind at airlines and the industry in general. You've lost the plot. This was an isolated and individual act of lunacy that can happen in any environment. It does not represent nor does it reflect in any shape or form the ethics and codes of practice within airlines. Lunatics are very clever and extemely devious in hiding their illness as can be seen in any cases of mass murder. They cannot be singled out with 100% accuracy.

No axe to grind here my friend, this mans history was well known Lufthansa new his friends knew his girlfriend new, but he could still fly.

That's not an axe its bad policy and screening.

As for codes of practice can you explain why nothing has been said of the black boxes in the java sea incident and the Ukraine incident not even mentioning how one man spent his life savings to find a cover up by the airlines for a faulty door mech that caused a door to fly off a 747 killing his daughter and others, he did people a lot of good the airline covered it up.

If that's an axe then you think you can sell Christmas to Santa.

[Tywais]

How on earth can anyone believe the pilot was using an axe ? who on earth can confirm this ?

This discussion is a perfect example of a rumour not only escalating into a fact but instigating a further discussion based on pure fiction. i.e. where did this non-existent axe appear from, where was it kept.

Because.......virtually every news outlet is saying an axe was used, and Germanwings

has stated an axe is part of the emergency equipment on an Airbus 320.

Yes, but that information came from a single seed which propagated from one outlet to the next to the next. I did find equipment manuals for the A320 and it does show in the list a crash axe but it also states it is stored in the cockpit behind the co-pilot so I don't see how it is possible the pilot would have it available to use. I believe the crow bar is not in the cockpit but in crew area.

[steve73]

Granted.... Certainly so in the case of Air France flight 296 crash. Pretty embarassing for

Airbus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296

"The crew applied full power and the pilot attempted to climb. However, the elevators did not respond to the pilot's commands, because the A320 computer system engaged its 'alpha protection' mode (meant to prevent the aircraft entering a stall.) Less than five seconds later, the turbines began ingesting leaves and branches as the aircraft skimmed the tops of the trees. The combustion chambers clogged up and the engines failed. The aircraft fell to the ground."

When an airplane crashes it's almost always a combination of things which compounded leading up to the crash. Airplanes don't, without other reasons, just fall out of the sky.

With a generic 296 type incident it would be pretty obvious that the pilots had the plane where it shouldn't be and that might be traced back to lack of training or planning or to partying in the cabin or not paying attention to the radios which might be caused by pilots not getting enough sleep or being hung over or...

Something would put it where it wasn't supposed to be without enough altitude or power and that usually began happening a lot earlier.

To quote from Stephen Barlay's 1990 book, The Final Call - Air Disasters... When will they ever learn, on page 428 when he discusses a/c modernisation and concludes.....

"Perhaps that is why some engineers recommend that new aircraft should carry just one pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot to feed the dog and the dog to ensure that the pilot keeps his hands off the controls".

I'm sure that automated control systems have improved significantly in the 25 years since then.

[Scott]

Off-topic post and replies removed.

[paully]

I have my doubts that the Captain would exit the cockpit, if he thought it would be necessary to use an axe to gain entry.

He was, reportedly, just popping to the loo! Hardly need an axe for that.

[micmichd]

Brinkmanship?

[Mosha]

I have my doubts that the Captain would exit the cockpit, if he thought it would be necessary to use an axe to gain entry.

He was, reportedly, just popping to the loo! Hardly need an axe for that.

As told by someone in the trade. EU Ops, A320s there are 2 axes. 1 in the cockpit to attack a panel fire. 1 hidden in the cabin.

[micmichd]

http://m.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/a-1026261.html

For those who understand German:

Attorney's press conference - live stream - on www.spiegel.de

Delayed.

Edited March 30, 2015 by micmichd

[NanLaew]

The new rule about 2 people up in the front of the bus at all times has been doable on US carriers (and a few others) for quite a while now.

Regarding cockpit door locks; how about a flight-specific password that ONLY the Captain knows? Seems bizarre to have a semi-automated security system that the master and commander cannot override.

Or maybe start building a loo for the flight crew ONLY into the cockpit instead of the buggers coming back and slumming it in the First Class dunny.

[manarak]

http://m.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/a-1026261.html

For those who understand German:

Attorney's press conference - live stream - on www.spiegel.de

Delayed.

News from the press conference:

Lubitz was suicidal when he was medically treated several years ago before he got his pilot's license.

Authorities are still beating about the bush regarding what Lubitz was currently under treatment for, they just said that the nature of his illness was not "organic", i.e. he was not physilogically ill.

[outboard]

I can at a push imagine someone wanting to end their life (physical or emotional endpoints), but even then, why take other people out without their consent? I can't imagine that extreme, it's just too far for my limited imagination.

Secondly, why would an auto-pilot piece of software allow an imminent failure?

Lastly, can someone explain this to me? "The A320 is designed with safeguards to allow emergency entry if a pilot inside is unresponsive, but the override code known to the crew does not go into effect — and indeed goes into a lockdown".

the door can be locked from inside to stop anyone getting into the cockpit, to do this means you need to be able to lock out the crew code, if someone wanted to take control of an aircraft they would have to get into the cockpit, if the crew refuse to let them in they might be killed to encourage other crew members to be more compliant, if they cant get in there is no point killing them.

I never heard of ths incident before now, and the story doesn't say when it happened. Or did I miss something?

yes

google is your friend !!!!

there are reports now that he recently broke up with his girlfriend and has been diagnosed with some sort of sight problem that would curtail his flying career in addition to the anti-depression meds found at his apartment may provide some some sort of questions.

[paully]

I suspect that we'll never know the 'actual' reason for what he did

No indeed. The flight data recorder, even if found, won't help with that either.

[NanLaew]

On a parallel track; our Captain mentioned this morning that he read that the French pilots (Union?) will refuse the 2 people in the cockpit at all times rule. Not sure of the specifics but maybe that's because their airlines (Air France for sure) have a security detail of 4-6 guys on every international flight, sort of like the US sky marshal? The difference is the AF guys have uniforms whereas the sky marshal is plain clothes.

Maybe all airlines need to have a sky marshal equivalent on ALL flights in plain clothes. Then the sky marshal is the one with the over-ride password for the cockpit door.