UK expats liable for cost of NHS treatment

[MAJIC]

"anyone except the Tories"

The population has been deceived by Tories for many decades,and do people learn a lesson?.... sadly not!

and not only the Tories, it was the Labour Government that fought against pension increases in Brussels.

That's perfectly true, although I prefer to think it was more of a treasury issue rather than straight political one.

You know what these civil servants are like!. It's their money! They would take everything of us if they had the chance.

The Civil Servants are there to carry out the wishes of the Government in power of the day,regardless of what they say to the contrary. Think about Governments selling off the peoples assets,like the recent balls up of the sale of the Royal Mail,i'm sure this Tory Government would love to blame the Civil Servants for losing over a Billion GBP of the peoples money,through incompetance! and one suspects corruption i.e selling off cheap to give their Backers and City pals a hefty Bonus,at the expense of the poor people who can't afford to buy shares at any price,as the saying goes the poor will become poorer,and the rich richer,much the same as Thailand really!

Edited August 30, 2015 by MAJIC

[chiang mai]

It seems that not much has changed since the days of the Sheriff of Nottingham except, there doesn't appear to be a modern day Robin on the radar.

[theoldgit]

Another thread has been started on this subject, which remains very much a live issue. I have closed the other thread returning-to-the-uk-for-nhs-treatment-no-longer-an-option so that discussion may continue on here, you might want to have a flick through some of the comments in the closed thread.

[soalbundy]

The buggers could bill me 500% of costs for all I care - they can't refuse to treat you and good luck with getting blood out of a stone afterwards. If that makes me a fraudster in the government's eyes, tough ca-ca to them.

you cant beat the system. The costs could be deducted from your pension for example. Slightly off topic but an example of how you get 'done' in the end, a Swiss friend of mine living here was engaged in a furious battle with the tax office in Switzerland, they wanted more back tax from him, a large amount, and he insisted he had paid his dues already and wouldn't pay anymore. As he was young and earned his money abroad he considered himself safe. The tax people were patient. When he needed a new passport, he applied 3 months before it ran out, he was told he would only get travel documents for one journey....to Switzerland where the tax authorities would be waiting to arrest him.

[jacky54]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

[uptheos]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

Well if there is, take it from me it certainly isn't working,

Lots of scare tactics used by certain posters, for what reason I have no idea.

[JB300]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

Well if there is, take it from me it certainly isn't working,

Lots of scare tactics used by certain posters, for what reason I have no idea.

Mentioned this on a previous thread but I was told by my accountant that HMRC has access to information about how many days you've been in & out of the UK, so if that's true, there must be a database somewhere with the information on it, it's not exactly a difficult thing to do given every port of entry/exit has passport swipers. Edited December 11, 2015 by JB300

[jacky54]

But if you go and come back from the EU then so what?

[uptheos]

But if you go and come back from the EU then so what?

Exactly we're talking astronomical numbers, which could be doubled as people go to and fro.

I doubt very much if they pick names from a hat.

[evadgib]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

Well if there is, take it from me it certainly isn't working,

Lots of scare tactics used by certain posters, for what reason I have no idea.

Mentioned this on a previous thread but I was told by my accountant that HMRC has access to information about how many days you've been in & out of the UK, so if that's true, there must be a database somewhere with the information on it, it's not exactly a difficult thing to do given every port of entry/exit has passport swipers.

I can't see this being true, save perhaps for those that haven't shaved for a month & turn up wearing pyjamas.

[Denim]

It seems that not much has changed since the days of the Sheriff of Nottingham except, there doesn't appear to be a modern day Robin on the radar.

Role reversal. Nowadays the government is the defacto Robbing Hood.

When it comes to the British government the old saying

' expect nothing and you won't be disappointed '

seems pretty accurate .

[canarysun]

I have been living abroad for 25 years with no contact and no address in the UK.I went back to the UK for " Free " NHS treatment and i arrived at the hospital (with my suitcase) directly from London Heathrow.I told them in my Terry Thomas voice that i feel dreadful and may have Dengue Fever and was seen straight away with no questions asked...........

God bless you all viewers!

F.J x

[chiang mai]

I have been living abroad for 25 years with no contact and no address in the UK.I went back to the UK for " Free " NHS treatment and i arrived at the hospital (with my suitcase) directly from London Heathrow.I told them in my Terry Thomas voice that i feel dreadful and may have Dengue Fever and was seen straight away with no questions asked...........

God bless you all viewers!

F.J x

As far as I can see the right of everyone to receive free emergency medical care has not been changed although I have read about attempts/desire to charge foreigners for that in the future. It would seem to me that Dengue comes under the emergency care aspect so yes, treatment should be free.

As for database etc: I don't believe there's a database for that purpose so I wouldn't get excited. What I believe is happening is that existing databases are being linked and cross referenced. So an application into NHS systems may well trigger a look at DWP and HMRC databases to see what is known about an individual as well as looks at electoral rolls etc, credit records etc.

Edited December 11, 2015 by chiang mai

[chiang mai]

Perhaps useful to add here, before this thread starts down the wrong path:

The issue of access to free NHS services doesn't really apply to those people who are still UK resident and/or those who are pretending to be so, as long as they've done a good job of it! The people who are affected by the changes are those who have declared themselves not UK resident for tax purposes and have not established a UK contact address via relatives or friends and those who have been truthful to UK authorities about their whereabouts. The issue of whether to be truthful or not about residency is a personal one and is a totally different subject from what is being discussed here, please let's not derail the thread by going down that discussion route.

Moving on: I think, for those people who are impacted by the changes, it's really useful to read and understand the questions asked by the NHS, of patients who they suspect may not be eligible for free treatment. In doing that a person can at least prepare their future answers and perhaps mitigate any negative impact. The questions are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations

[MAJIC]

Lets not worry ourselves to an early grave. Five years ago the government announced they would track down people using 'accommodation' addresses in the UK in order to maintain pension increases. They went further and stated the people supplying the address (.e.g. family members or whatever) would be prosecuted for aiding and abetting fraud. The pensioner would have the pension frozen until all the overpaid had been reclaimed.

How many cases of this have there been?. I know it influenced some people to come clean about non-residency, which was presumably the purpose.

By the way, my pension is frozen as I have always had my Thai address with DWP.

That's disgraceful considering the amount you have paid in and the immigrants have paid in nothing.

[chiang mai]

Lets not worry ourselves to an early grave. Five years ago the government announced they would track down people using 'accommodation' addresses in the UK in order to maintain pension increases. They went further and stated the people supplying the address (.e.g. family members or whatever) would be prosecuted for aiding and abetting fraud. The pensioner would have the pension frozen until all the overpaid had been reclaimed.

How many cases of this have there been?. I know it influenced some people to come clean about non-residency, which was presumably the purpose.

By the way, my pension is frozen as I have always had my Thai address with DWP.

That's disgraceful considering the amount you have paid in and the immigrants have paid in nothing.

I think that's where people go wrong on this issue,it's not a comparative thing it's a personal one. Just because somebody else does or doesn't get something over and above what you may get is irrelevant I think. The issue is how do the rules, as they are currently stated and as they stand today, impact you and your circumstances. In my particular case I loose immediate free access because I declared myself as non-resident - all of that is personal to me and is between the government and me. The issue of whether an immigrant gets free access or not has nothing to do with me, that's between the immigrant and the government. Having said that, I'll bet that if it was my overseas born wife who was the immigrant and joining me to live in the UK, I'd be pretty happy about her getting free access to the NHS.

I suggest if you want to get upset about something that government has done relative to this issue, get upset that expats have to pay 150% of NHS actual cost of treatment whereas immigrants can buy insurance policies from government costing 200 Pounds a year to insure against that cost. WHY can't expats do the same, it's outrageous that we can't.

[Farang99]

My doctor doesnt give a stuff that i live here ,when i told him he said you paid in your entitled ,see you next year.

And neither does mine, he's a long term friend of mine, but the problem might arise if I'm admitted to hospital during a visit.

I suffered a heart attack six months ago down in Singapore which, whilst my doctor says I'm ok to travel, means I'm unlikely to be able to get any insurance cover for a visit.

I'm not arguing that the UK doesn't face tremendous difficulties that need to be addressed but I think we're soft targets and if we exercised our right to return could end up costing them more.

I still have a NHS card, but the address on it is long out of date, and both the doctor and the practice have gone - retired and closed, respectively, so how would I go about trying to establish residence for treatment? All I can do is stay here and hope nothing too serious goes wrong.

[KittenKong]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

Well if there is, take it from me it certainly isn't working,

Lots of scare tactics used by certain posters, for what reason I have no idea.

Mentioned this on a previous thread but I was told by my accountant that HMRC has access to information about how many days you've been in & out of the UK, so if that's true, there must be a database somewhere with the information on it, it's not exactly a difficult thing to do given every port of entry/exit has passport swipers.

Dont forget that all data about flight passengers to/from the UK is also known by the UK government. You simply cannot fly without them knowing your passport number and name.

Whether they choose to act on the information is another matter. I suspect that one day they will.

[brewsterbudgen]

I'm working abroad and have been since 2005. When my employment ends, or if I need medical treatment that I can't get in Thailand, I will return home to the UK to use the NHS.

[Eff1n2ret]

The Daily Telegraph report in April summarised the situation as it was then - visitors to the UK, including expats, can receive free treatment at a GP's surgery or A & E, but will be billed at 150% of "cost" for hospital in-patient treatment. I saw a report in the Daily Mail the other day suggesting that the Dept of Health is now going to extend charging to A & E treatment as well.

When I was in the UK in the summer a friend told me about a Brit friend of his who lived in Canada, but had a flat in England which he decided to sell, so he came over last year to do it up prior to putting it on the market. He had an accident and ended up in hospital. Somehow they discovered that he wasn't resident, and presented him with a bill for £12,000. He refused to pay so they said they'd register a charge against his property. He then instructed a solicitor and eventually the charge was withdrawn.

OK, that's a third-hand story, but at the time we weren't discussing this particular subject, and I've no reason to think that my acquaintance made it up. I would dearly like to know on what grounds the solicitor managed to get the demand withdrawn, although the government seems to be getting increasingly gung-ho about this.

[jacky54]

UK expat I know resident in NZ was charged 75 quid to see a GP back in her home town in Aug.

[i claudius]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

They wish , they cant even tell when terrorists come and go , so no chance catching percy the pensioner .

[buddhalady]

since my previous post I have done some searching on NHS Trust web sites and spoken to an NHS manager (family member).

Try this;

You turn up at A/E whilst you are in the UK. You have a name, Social Security number, perhaps a UK driving licence and, presumably an address where you are staying. You are seen (as anyone is entitled to emergency treatment).

You are then admitted to hospital. Why would they be suspicious and send someone round to the ward to question you?. If they do and ask for your passport you simply say "I haven't got one".

(There are millions of people in the UK without a passport and, in any event, there is no address in a passport. I sometimes think, as an ex-pat that everyone has a passport, simply because we are so used to using it here as an identity card.) So, no passport, no number to check against 'records' of the Border Agency.

Another 'check' a Trust can use - according to the website I visited - is 'Have you a UK bank account' with your address?". I have, and my UK pension is paid quite legally into that account.

The point I'm trying to make is that there would have to be a serious degree of doubt about your eligibility before someone started harassing you whilst you are lying in a bed in hospital. NHS staff are not like that generally.

I've always understood, that, if you are a UK pensioner and have spent at least 10 continuous years living in the UK you are alright anyway.

Sorry to break your dream, Emily, but the reality is as follows:-

Early this year, my husband and I decided to try a separation as our lifestyles were heading in an opposite direction and he had always missed the UK whereas I definitely had not. The plan was that he would return there at the end of June, we would keep in contact and visit one another in order to cool things down. We both hoped a regenerated relationship might well be the result.

Several months later, he suffered a medical emergency when a wound on his foot became gangrenous, needing immediate medical treatment We checked with a local English-speaking Thai doctor whose urgent advice was for him to return to the UK within a few days as 'there's no-one here who could deal with this properly' Foolishly, we took her advice and my husband flew out two days later. He checked in at Manchester Royal Infirmary and was immediately admitted and scheduled for an amputation and debridement of his gangrenous foot. On his arrival he had explained that he was due to return to the UK permanently at the end of June. Shortly after his first (unsuccessful) operation, an NHS trust representative arrived at his bedside, rejected his reasons for return and told him he was considered a health tourist and would be charged in full. As he was by then panicking and very distressed, I managed to deal with her on the phone, and the requirement was dropped - only, it transpired, for the time being,

Three more operations ended in his having been given a (subsequently failed) femoral-popitieal bypass and his right leg was finally amputated above the knee. He caught two 'superbugs' - MRSA and Klebseila - whilst in the hospital and nearly died of septicemia before being transferred to Trafford General for so-called rehabilitation. I was told that I was not able to get any info on his condition as 'we don't know who you are, you could be anyone - you'll have to come here to get any info'. Once in Trafford the physiotherapy necessary for an amputee was denied him and he was forced to stay in a side room due to the MRSA infection. A week after his transfer he was again accused of being a health tourist and told his stay would cost £360 per night plus medical expenses. The info caused a huge increase in his post-operative depression and infected ulcers developed on his remaining leg.

After insisting that he intended to stay in the UK, he requested a visit from social services to enquire into care for the disabled. No-one turned up, and he was informed that he would be discharged on 14th August. In his weakened state, this was a major shock as he knew he would not be able to cope. The discharge date came and went with no action and still no response from social services. 10 days later, he was again told he would have to leave - when I called the ward manager I was told 'we're just waiting for you to book him a flight' So I did - no alternative.

He arrived in a dreadful state, even although he had been told that he was now free of MRSA. Suspecting this was a lie, I had him tested here - the result was positive for the bacterium. His discharge notes, prepared by a Dr Shah (!?) referred to him as a '?? UK citizen' - this caused him even more distress - the woman could surely have just asked to see his passport????? In the end, however, he was not charged for his stay.

Sadly, the above wasn't the end of the story - during his stay in the hospital he had been assured that his heart was strong and he should not expect any problems in that department. After he died a week ago from a massive heart attack, I read his discharge papers only to find that, on transfer to Trafford General, he had been diagnosed with Acute Coronary Syndrome.

Had he - and I - been told of this, stabilization measures could have been put in place until he was strong enough to have undertaken angioplasty either here or in India.

The message to UK expats of this rant is straightforward - don't take chances with your life or your financial status - avoid the NHS like the plague. If you can't finance the rip-off charges here, are too old for health insurance or are unable to get an affordable health policy, go to India. When we arrived here a decade ago, we accepted the frozen pension scandal but were still able to access the NHS. The recent governmental changes will affect a huge number of UK citizens living overseas and lives will be lost as a result.

.

[jacky54]

Horror story, probably a few more from those who went to India, don't fancy that option.

[Eff1n2ret]

The message to UK expats of this rant is straightforward - don't take chances with your life or your financial status - avoid the NHS like the plague. If you can't finance the rip-off charges here, are too old for health insurance or are unable to get an affordable health policy, go to India. When we arrived here a decade ago, we accepted the frozen pension scandal but were still able to access the NHS. The recent governmental changes will affect a huge number of UK citizens living overseas and lives will be lost as a result.

.

Buddhalady, May I offer my heartfelt sympathy for your distress and the shocking treatment of your late husband by the shambolic and uncaring NHS. They were totally incorrect in harassing him for payment as it was his intention to resume residence in the UK anyway, and was entitled to free treatment as soon as he got off the plane. If you read the letter from the Minister which I copied in my post #108 this is clearly stated in the penultimate paragraph. I suppose the difficulty they have is that if someone seeks treatment shortly after arrival it is difficult to ascertain their true intention, but if that person is a British citizen, the onus of proof should be on the NHS.

Your final paragraph sums up my sentiments exactly. I have made the best provision I can to live the rest of my life in Thailand and will do almost anything to avoid seeking treatment "back home". Those whose fallback plan is to get back for NHS treatment may be deluding themselves both as to their entitlement and to the end result of their treatment, which seems these days as likely to kill you as to cure you.

[evadgib]

Perhaps useful to add here, before this thread starts down the wrong path:

The issue of access to free NHS services doesn't really apply to those people who are still UK resident and/or those who are pretending to be so, as long as they've done a good job of it! The people who are affected by the changes are those who have declared themselves not UK resident for tax purposes and have not established a UK contact address via relatives or friends and those who have been truthful to UK authorities about their whereabouts. The issue of whether to be truthful or not about residency is a personal one and is a totally different subject from what is being discussed here, please let's not derail the thread by going down that discussion route.

Moving on: I think, for those people who are impacted by the changes, it's really useful to read and understand the questions asked by the NHS, of patients who they suspect may not be eligible for free treatment. In doing that a person can at least prepare their future answers and perhaps mitigate any negative impact. The questions are here: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/guidance-on-overseas-visitors-hospital-charging-regulations

Thanks, that link confirms exemptions to which I/wife/children am rightfully entitled & will be quoted if ever necessary

[uptheos]

Somebody said on the other thread that there is an integrated data base sowing when you are in and out of the UK, personally I doubt this.

They wish , they cant even tell when terrorists come and go , so no chance catching percy the pensioner .

But they will put more effort into catching Percy the pensioner!!

[chiang mai]

An interesting clue perhaps to the future comes from the Australian system whereby Immigration notifies the Australian pensions folks whenever a pensioner leaves and arrives back in the country so that strict residency rules (which determine eligibility and amount paid) can be enforced.

Other aspects of the Australian system include reducing a pension where the recipient marries a younger female who is expected to take care of the pensioner.

[i claudius]

An interesting clue perhaps to the future comes from the Australian system whereby Immigration notifies the Australian pensions folks whenever a pensioner leaves and arrives back in the country so that strict residency rules (which determine eligibility and amount paid) can be enforced.

Other aspects of the Australian system include reducing a pension where the recipient marries a younger female who is expected to take care of the pensioner.

There is one difference though ,in Australia the pension is a benefit , same as social security , as they do not pay in all their lives while in the UK ALTHOUGH THEY ARE TRYING TO CALL THE PENSION A BENEFIT ,IT IS NOT , WE PAID INTO IT ALL OUR LIVES ,

[schoolies]

NHS cover eligibility

Returning to the UK to settle; summary of 6.2 below

Citizens who return to the UK on a settled basis will be classed as ordinarily resident,

and will be eligible for free NHS care immediately.

6.2 British citizens, European Economic Area (EEA) nationals and non-EEA nationals with

indefinite leave to remain returning to resume properly settled residence in the UK will meet

the ordinary residence test (assuming their residence is lawful and voluntarily adopted), most

likely from the date of their arrival.

Basically if you have a UK passport holder, without restrictions, and state 'you intend to return to UK on a settled basis' you are entitled to immediate free NHS care in full. The chance that the UK government could prove that the statement 'you intend to return to UK on a settled basis' was not made in good faith is NIL.

If you are happy in Thailand stay there. If you develop a serious illness, go back to UK and settle with a relative "in good faith". Your health cover with NHS is then 100%.

If you are just going on holiday, take out cover if you can get it but remember EMC is still available for everyone in UK as is GP access. You may be charged but on a 'reasonable ability to pay basis'.

Lastly an observation. Tory politicians say they 'want to protect the NHS for taxpayers' . I am a full UK tax payer but don't have access to the NHS anymore? They do say no taxation without representation!

I would favour a 94 day rule (if you stay in the UK for more than 93 days you are 'ordinarily resident for tax purposes'). How about if you stay in the UK for 94 days per year you are entitled to tax funded NHS services - just a thought to any budding politicians reading this.