Water tank or not?

[thuisinthailand]

We'll soon move to another house where is only government water. There is a well, but according to the landlord the well has dried up. To deepen it, seems to be a costly affair. Now the government water usually works fine here, although water pressure is not constant. We may be ok with that for a while, but we were advised to have a water tank installed in order to be able to maintain constant water pressure and to have water when the government water is off (like during Songkran...). I googled a bit on the topic, but got very confused, it seems many different set-ups can be done.

What would be a sensible solution?

Any advice on this will be much appreciated!

[MJCM]

A holding tank with an Automatic pump would be a good idea if you want to have good water pressure throughout the house.

How it works is, that the government water will fill the holding tank and the automatic pump will then provide the house with water as soon as you open a tap or flush the toilet.

Hope this helps a bit.

[MJCM]

Additional info, if looking for a holding tank, go for a food grade one, they are not that expensive (1000 liters around 3-4k or 2000 liters for around 6-7k). The reason why is that the normal (cheap) blue tanks in this climate in just a couple of days will have lots of algea in them which you need to clean out.

Here are some good ones

http://dos.co.th/product/productdetail.php?clang=E&pid=114

Edited April 15, 2015 by MJCM

[IMHO]

It sure sounds like you need a tank. How many people in the house, and how many days of autonomy will you need?

[thuisinthailand]

Thanks guys. We're with 3 people (one of them being a little kid), we would need autonomy for 2 days maximum I guess. Will definitely not buy a blue plastic one (although the water in the tank gets refreshed all the time when using the water with the pump - but we'll go for the grade one anyway). Would it be wise to put the tank into the ground (as the neighbours have done), or is the roof a better place?

[Crossy]

On the ground is the best location assuming you have space. The roof won't be strong enough (1000L of water weighs a Ton), in-ground means you need to dig a hole for it and there's always the possibility of contaminants getting in via the lid if you have even a minor flood.

Set it up something like this:-

[LindaLovelace]

You might also note that with Crossy's design, you can completely bypass the entire tank/pump business when city water is of sufficient pressure and save both electricity and wear and tear on your pump.

You might also consider a float switch or some other kind of safety cut-out to turn off your pump in the event the tank runs dry. When the system has worked perfectly for a long time, it is easy to forget that it is still dependent on city water. Then if city water goes off and your tank runs dry, the mere flushing of a toilet could turn on your demand pump and leave it dry-running until it burns up.

A centrifugal pump is much tougher and not likely to burn up. But not so with the popular residential constant pressure pumps.

[IMHO]

On capacity, figure on 10L of water per minute for showers, 15-20L per KG for clothes washing machine, and then add another 50-100L per day for washing dishes etc.

Assuming 5 minute showers for 3 people, twice daily, that's: 10*5*3*2 = 300L

Assuming one load of 6KG of clothes washing per day, that's: 15-20*6 = 90-120L

Plus sundries: 100L

Daily usage: ~500L

So for two days of autonomy: 1000L

if you're also watering gardens, add another 500-1000L/day (or more) capacity.

[thuisinthailand]

Thanks everyone!

[Gonsalviz]

You're gonnna need a settlement tank to get rid of all the trash in the government water pipes. Then you can have cleaner water in your holding tank.

[lopburi3]

You do not need and extra tank for sediment - you can clean tanks (SS types will have a drain at center bottom for this). Even without cleaning most places do not have that much dirt.

Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up.

Most places pressure will never be good enough without pump so you can also use an on/off tap for the direct line for use when power is out. It is more work as two valves to turn but I do not have much faith in check valves not leaking and pumping back into main water line. But perhaps I would think differently if a lot of power outages.

[Crossy]

We have two check valves in the bypass (I couldn't get a UK style double check in 1") for exactly the reason L3 suggests, n'er a drip gets back to the mains (that I know about).

We also have a front-end filter with a polythingy element, takes out the crunchy bits when the crew have had the pipes up and got half the road into the tube.

[a99az]

Best way is to get a 1000 lit tank with ballcock and have it put underground this stops the light getting in keeping algae out and keeps the water cooler. Then put a pump from it with a pressure sensor so it cuts in as soon as you open a tap. Filter the water before the tank and make sure the air vent from the tank has a good filter to keep out bugs.

[lopburi3]

The goal for most here is warm water - it is never going to be drinking cool/thats why we have coolers and refrigerators - having above ground helps ease water heater electric usage, is much easier to maintain, and easy to see how much water you have and no worry about floating tank if ground water higher than tank. There is no growth if sun does not get in tank and the sandstone type and SS tanks are very lightproof.

As for pump it is much better to have a pressure tank to avoid running every time toilet leaks a few drops. Believe even most constant pressure pumps do have a small reserve tank for this these days - in the case of the top line Grundfos it is actually quite large and works great.

[LindaLovelace]

You do not need and extra tank for sediment - you can clean tanks (SS types will have a drain at center bottom for this). Even without cleaning most places do not have that much dirt.

Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up.

Most places pressure will never be good enough without pump so you can also use an on/off tap for the direct line for use when power is out. It is more work as two valves to turn but I do not have much faith in check valves not leaking and pumping back into main water line. But perhaps I would think differently if a lot of power outages.

"Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up."

Are you sure? I have a high end Hitachi WM-P400GX Inverter Pump (15,000 ThB) and the manual says nothing about this. In fact, the manual states:

Do not dry run the pump (operate the

pump without water).

The remaining water inside the pump

will become hot, which will result in the

plastic components becoming deformed,

causing damage.

Nowhere in the manual is there any advice that the pump will turn off if it begins to run dry. I know the pump will shut off if it gets hot, as with water over 45ºC, then will restart when the temp falls below that. But it seems that dry running the pump until it heats up enough to shut off would begin to damage it and shorten its life.

If this is not so, I would certainly like to understand the basis for it. I spent 3,000 baht on a device from Italy to shut off the pump in the event of no water.

[Pib]

You do not need and extra tank for sediment - you can clean tanks (SS types will have a drain at center bottom for this). Even without cleaning most places do not have that much dirt.

Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up.

Most places pressure will never be good enough without pump so you can also use an on/off tap for the direct line for use when power is out. It is more work as two valves to turn but I do not have much faith in check valves not leaking and pumping back into main water line. But perhaps I would think differently if a lot of power outages.

"Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up."

Are you sure? I have a high end Hitachi WM-P400GX Inverter Pump (15,000 ThB) and the manual says nothing about this. In fact, the manual states:

Do not dry run the pump (operate the

pump without water).

The remaining water inside the pump

will become hot, which will result in the

plastic components becoming deformed,

causing damage.

Nowhere in the manual is there any advice that the pump will turn off if it begins to run dry. I know the pump will shut off if it gets hot, as with water over 45ºC, then will restart when the temp falls below that. But it seems that dry running the pump until it heats up enough to shut off would begin to damage it and shorten its life.

If this is not so, I would certainly like to understand the basis for it. I spent 3,000 baht on a device from Italy to shut off the pump in the event of no water.

Yes, your model also has thermal protection in the motor also. See below...a cut and paste from the catalog brochure for Hitachi pumps. The brochure says "all" Hitachi motors have thermal protection.

[lopburi3]

You can always expense as insurance as sure it will shorten life of pump if run dry often - but for most of us that is not a big problem - I do not recall running dry more than a handful of times in 40 years here in Bangkok - and in all cases pump was heard running and turned off before heat shutoff. But my experience has been the older air cooled units. In a water cooled unit did have an issue with hot tank water shutting it off and had to build a roof over tank.

[MJCM]

<snip>

I spent 3,000 baht on a device from Italy to shut off the pump in the event of no water.

Nowadays you can buy such a device in local hardware stores for a couple of 100 THB, you install them in your water tank and connect them to your pump and it will shut your pump down in case the water level gets critically low.

Found a picture

Edited April 18, 2015 by MJCM

[LindaLovelace]

You do not need and extra tank for sediment - you can clean tanks (SS types will have a drain at center bottom for this). Even without cleaning most places do not have that much dirt.

Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up.

Most places pressure will never be good enough without pump so you can also use an on/off tap for the direct line for use when power is out. It is more work as two valves to turn but I do not have much faith in check valves not leaking and pumping back into main water line. But perhaps I would think differently if a lot of power outages.

"Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up."

Are you sure? I have a high end Hitachi WM-P400GX Inverter Pump (15,000 ThB) and the manual says nothing about this. In fact, the manual states:

Do not dry run the pump (operate the

pump without water).

The remaining water inside the pump

will become hot, which will result in the

plastic components becoming deformed,

causing damage.

Nowhere in the manual is there any advice that the pump will turn off if it begins to run dry. I know the pump will shut off if it gets hot, as with water over 45ºC, then will restart when the temp falls below that. But it seems that dry running the pump until it heats up enough to shut off would begin to damage it and shorten its life.

If this is not so, I would certainly like to understand the basis for it. I spent 3,000 baht on a device from Italy to shut off the pump in the event of no water.

Yes, your model also has thermal protection in the motor also. See below...a cut and paste from the catalog brochure for Hitachi pumps. The brochure says "all" Hitachi motors have thermal protection.

Capture.JPG

Yes, bui;lt in thermal protection is good. But the problem with relying on it is that by the time the pump cuts out, it's already hot. then, when it cools, it restarts. If you have flushed a toilet, using the last of the water in the tank, just before leaving for the day (and you are unaware the water supply has failed as ours often does), the pump will turn on and off all day. This cannot be good. What the pump should have is a cutoff that responds to pressure drop. the Italian device, purchased at Golbal House, turns the pump off if there is a pressure drop. it then tries to turn the pump back on in 30 minutes. It will repeat the cycle three times, then leave the pump off until the reset button is pressed.

One can also use a float switch, mentioned below. A lot cheaper. I have both (float switch just like the picture below). The float switch will actually turn off the pump first and wait for the tank to refill to whatever level I set, then kick the pump back on. But if the float switch fails, the Italian device saves the day. I believe in redundancy -- especially here in Thailand when I am dealing with an uncertain water supply and an expensive piece of equipment.

[MJCM]

You do not need and extra tank for sediment - you can clean tanks (SS types will have a drain at center bottom for this). Even without cleaning most places do not have that much dirt.

Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up.

Most places pressure will never be good enough without pump so you can also use an on/off tap for the direct line for use when power is out. It is more work as two valves to turn but I do not have much faith in check valves not leaking and pumping back into main water line. But perhaps I would think differently if a lot of power outages.

"Every home water pump I have seen or used here will shut itself off if overheated (running dry) and will not burn up."

Are you sure? I have a high end Hitachi WM-P400GX Inverter Pump (15,000 ThB) and the manual says nothing about this. In fact, the manual states:

Do not dry run the pump (operate the

pump without water).

The remaining water inside the pump

will become hot, which will result in the

plastic components becoming deformed,

causing damage.

Nowhere in the manual is there any advice that the pump will turn off if it begins to run dry. I know the pump will shut off if it gets hot, as with water over 45ºC, then will restart when the temp falls below that. But it seems that dry running the pump until it heats up enough to shut off would begin to damage it and shorten its life.

If this is not so, I would certainly like to understand the basis for it. I spent 3,000 baht on a device from Italy to shut off the pump in the event of no water.

Yes, your model also has thermal protection in the motor also. See below...a cut and paste from the catalog brochure for Hitachi pumps. The brochure says "all" Hitachi motors have thermal protection.

Capture.JPG

Yes, bui;lt in thermal protection is good. But the problem with relying on it is that by the time the pump cuts out, it's already hot. then, when it cools, it restarts. If you have flushed a toilet, using the last of the water in the tank, just before leaving for the day (and you are unaware the water supply has failed as ours often does), the pump will turn on and off all day. This cannot be good. What the pump should have is a cutoff that responds to pressure drop. the Italian device, purchased at Golbal House, turns the pump off if there is a pressure drop. it then tries to turn the pump back on in 30 minutes. It will repeat the cycle three times, then leave the pump off until the reset button is pressed.

One can also use a float switch, mentioned below. A lot cheaper. I have both (float switch just like the picture below). The float switch will actually turn off the pump first and wait for the tank to refill to whatever level I set, then kick the pump back on. But if the float switch fails, the Italian device saves the day. I believe in redundancy -- especially here in Thailand when I am dealing with an uncertain water supply and an expensive piece of equipment.

@LL

care to post a picture of the "Italian" device so when people are going to GH they know what to look for.

Edited April 18, 2015 by MJCM

[LindaLovelace]

You can always expense as insurance as sure it will shorten life of pump if run dry often - but for most of us that is not a big problem - I do not recall running dry more than a handful of times in 40 years here in Bangkok - and in all cases pump was heard running and turned off before heat shutoff. But my experience has been the older air cooled units. In a water cooled unit did have an issue with hot tank water shutting it off and had to build a roof over tank.

Man, you're lucky. where I live, the water runs out every day. and the bad part is that it is not on any schedule. Sometimes it's morning, sometimes afternoon and often evening. Often more than once a day. The village water supply is over capacity. I put in a well for irrigation, but since the water from the village has already been aerated and gone through a sand filter, using it does not tax my filtration system as much. My tanks have never actually run out on me; I have plenty of cushion. The threat comes in if somebody leave a faucet running, or something like that.

[LindaLovelace]

"

Are you sure? I have a high end Hitachi WM-P400GX Inverter Pump (15,000 ThB) and the manual says nothing about this. In fact, the manual states:

Do not dry run the pump (operate the

pump without water).

The remaining water inside the pump

will become hot, which will result in the

plastic components becoming deformed,

causing damage.

Nowhere in the manual is there any advice that the pump will turn off if it begins to run dry. I know the pump will shut off if it gets hot, as with water over 45ºC, then will restart when the temp falls below that. But it seems that dry running the pump until it heats up enough to shut off would begin to damage it and shorten its life.

If this is not so, I would certainly like to understand the basis for it. I spent 3,000 baht on a device from Italy to shut off the pump in the event of no water.

Yes, your model also has thermal protection in the motor also. See below...a cut and paste from the catalog brochure for Hitachi pumps. The brochure says "all" Hitachi motors have thermal protection.

Capture.JPG

Yes, bui;lt in thermal protection is good. But the problem with relying on it is that by the time the pump cuts out, it's already hot. then, when it cools, it restarts. If you have flushed a toilet, using the last of the water in the tank, just before leaving for the day (and you are unaware the water supply has failed as ours often does), the pump will turn on and off all day. This cannot be good. What the pump should have is a cutoff that responds to pressure drop. the Italian device, purchased at Golbal House, turns the pump off if there is a pressure drop. it then tries to turn the pump back on in 30 minutes. It will repeat the cycle three times, then leave the pump off until the reset button is pressed.

One can also use a float switch, mentioned below. A lot cheaper. I have both (float switch just like the picture below). The float switch will actually turn off the pump first and wait for the tank to refill to whatever level I set, then kick the pump back on. But if the float switch fails, the Italian device saves the day. I believe in redundancy -- especially here in Thailand when I am dealing with an uncertain water supply and an expensive piece of equipment.

@LL

care to post a picture of the "Italian" device so when people are going to GH they know what to look for.

Okay, tomorrow. Sorry, I couldn't even remember the name of it. I'll take a picture of the device and the box.

[Pib]

Yes, bui;lt in thermal protection is good. But the problem with relying on it is that by the time the pump cuts out, it's already hot. then, when it cools, it restarts. If you have flushed a toilet, using the last of the water in the tank, just before leaving for the day (and you are unaware the water supply has failed as ours often does), the pump will turn on and off all day. This cannot be good. What the pump should have is a cutoff that responds to pressure drop. the Italian device, purchased at Golbal House, turns the pump off if there is a pressure drop. it then tries to turn the pump back on in 30 minutes. It will repeat the cycle three times, then leave the pump off until the reset button is pressed.

One can also use a float switch, mentioned below. A lot cheaper. I have both (float switch just like the picture below). The float switch will actually turn off the pump first and wait for the tank to refill to whatever level I set, then kick the pump back on. But if the float switch fails, the Italian device saves the day. I believe in redundancy -- especially here in Thailand when I am dealing with an uncertain water supply and an expensive piece of equipment.

Yes, you are correct. A few years back my Mitsubishi water pump would overheat when using a lot of water for an extended time due to the pump's pressure tank being waterlogged. It would take the pump about 30-60 minutes to overheat and then just stop working because the pump motor's thermal protection device would trip...and it would take about 15 minutes for the motor and device to cool off enough to where the thermal protection device automatically reset itself to allow the pump to run again.

Now although it overheated like this at least 3 or 4 times over a couple of days until I figured out and fixed the problem (a defective air balance valve) it did not hurt pump. The motor itself would be hot to the touch when it overheated but the plastic manifold assembly was just barely warm.

But allowing any electrical device to overheat is never a good thing because while it may not appear to hurt anything initially it could still shorten its lifespan by X-amount of time. And if I had been gone for days from the home when the problem occurred and my pump did the overheat, trip, cool off a little, start running again, overheat again, trip, etc., I expect some damage could have occurred to the pump motor and maybe the electrical pressure switch.

Just a few weeks ago we had some water line maintenance done in the moobaan which resulted in no water for about 8 hours....but with my 850L storage tank , which is enough water for our usage for about 1.5 days, our home was not impacted. But for whatever reason one of our nearby neighbors who also has a storage tank but apparently wasn't using it and instead sucking directly from the soi water main had his pump running for most of the day because he was at work. Guess he has a few small leaks or lost pressure due to no water input to the pump which started the pump running with no water to suck and no way to build up water pressure which would cycle off the pump. He got home in the evening...turned the pump off....a few hours later the water was restored...he turned his pump back on and it's still working fine. I expect it may have overheated and shut itself down X-amount of times during the day but I know every time I went by the house during the day while walking the dogs, jogging, etc., the pump was running---just sucking air because there was no water to suck.

[LindaLovelace]

Okay, I admit that the using the terminology, "Italian device," was pretty lazy and not helpful -- my profuse apologies. The device I purchased from Global House for my pumps is a "Brio 2000-MT," with automatic restart.

Warning: Though the device says "Made in Italy," and carries the EU seal, in Thailand, one can never be sure that it is not a Chinese copy, beautiful on the outside and garbage on the inside. It is one reason I often choose to import. But I have tested this device, and so far, it works as advertised. It also appears to be of reasonable high quality.

[MJCM]

@LL.

Thanks it really looks like a nifty device.

Did you have to use it much / push the reset button, and other question did you ever had to push the button and there was water available so a False Alarm ?

Thanks in advance, much appreciated

[LindaLovelace]

@LL.

Thanks it really looks like a nifty device.

Did you have to use it much / push the reset button, and other question did you ever had to push the button and there was water available so a False Alarm ?

Thanks in advance, much appreciated

The float switch can either be wired to turn the pump off when the tank is low and back on when the water rises, or it can be wired to turn the pump on when the water is low and off when it comes back up. I use the former configuration. If the tank draws down to about 30cm of water, it shuts off the pump and turns it back on when the flow is restored and the water level comes up to about half full. The electric line lead is wired through the float switch first, then the Brio then the pump. If the tank draws too low, the float switch will shut off the pump. If the float switch fails and the tank runs dry, the Brio will shut down the system. The final back-up in the unlikely event that both fail is the pump’s overheat shutdown.

Again, the electric line runs through the float switch to the Brio switch to the pump. There are two switches between the power supply and the pump. In case you are wondering, I cut the plug off the pump and wired through a board, with the ground.

The Brio 200-MT will shut off the pump when it runs dry. It works with pressure; no pressure shuts it down. It has a timer that will restart the pump after one hour. If still dry, it shuts it off again. The cycle repeats three times (I think) then the pump stays off. You push the reset button to restart the system once the flow is restored. All Brios do not have the timer feature. The Brio-MT does. You have to read the fine print.

For folks living in a place like Bangkok where water service is seldom interrupted, this system is total overkill and a waste of money. But like I said, in my village, the water supply can be interrupted two or more times a day. Sometimes the interruption is an hour or two, and sometimes five or more hours. And how do I know the supply is interrupted if my pump is pumping from a tank? I don’t. By the time I discover the tank has run dry, the pump may have cycled on and off from overheating ten times or more. You might think I would notice not water from the tap. But what if the last use was a toilet flush? Or somebody turned on a tap, found no water and just walked away leaving it open. Who would do that, you ask? Well where are you? I find often find water taps left on. Lights, too. Drives me nuts, but what can you do?

I prefer the redundancy to gambling with a 14,000 pump. Relying on the pump’s overheating cut-out in a place like I live is a fools’ errand. The pump is in a pump house where I cannot hear it. It may cycle on and off ten or more times before the water flow is restored. This cannot be good for the pump. Why wear it out in this manner?

I have tested the system and everything works perfectly. It is all fairly new, and thus far, my tank has never gone empty between water flow interruptions (as far as I know). Of course, with the automated nature of the system, I do not know that for sure. So, no, at this time I have never had a false alarm.

The problem in my village is that the water supply was built a long time ago. It is now way over capacity, and there is no money to upgrade the system. They do the best they can with it.

By the way do you have an English language manual for you Hitachi pump? It does not come with one. I have it in PDF and will send it to you if you PM me with your email address.

John

<deleted> (please do not post personal info)

[thuisinthailand]

Additional info, if looking for a holding tank, go for a food grade one, they are not that expensive (1000 liters around 3-4k or 2000 liters for around 6-7k). The reason why is that the normal (cheap) blue tanks in this climate in just a couple of days will have lots of algea in them which you need to clean out.

Here are some good ones

http://dos.co.th/product/productdetail.php?clang=E&pid=114

How about the MAGMA CCR tank? Is that comparable to the DOS ones?

[MJCM]

Additional info, if looking for a holding tank, go for a food grade one, they are not that expensive (1000 liters around 3-4k or 2000 liters for around 6-7k). The reason why is that the normal (cheap) blue tanks in this climate in just a couple of days will have lots of algea in them which you need to clean out.

Here are some good ones

http://dos.co.th/product/productdetail.php?clang=E&pid=114

How about the MAGMA CCR tank? Is that comparable to the DOS ones?

Sorry never heard of this brand. I always had DOS, my friends all have DOS and never any problems. As in Thai they say "Up to You"

[thuisinthailand]

Anyone any experience with the DOS Greenery Eco Water Tank? Tried to copy an image here (but failed..), has a green color, and the 1,000 liter one is doing 3,390 baht at Home Pro currently (normally 5,000 baht). See also here: http://www.directtoshop.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/en/directtoshop/plumbing/tanks/water-tanks/eco-04-gr-1000l-water-tank-p1020291

[MJCM]

No direct experience, but on another forum ( related to building) a Guy is using 12 of these Tanks for his water storage/supply, so he must like them

Good Luck

Edited April 20, 2015 by MJCM