Maize and Rotational Crops

[kickstart]

@ FJ .You have a point about  a clean field after mechanical harvesting ,but  the weight of the harvester ,and Sip-Law's ,or tractor and trailers  going up and down  the field must  have a problem with soil compaction ,some farmers say all that weight on the sugar cane crowns ,does them some damage ,and reduces  yield  the following  year .

As   you say most farmers use that 2 row tined subsoiler/fertilizer implement ,which to me is a waist of time ,go to deep  with it and the fertilizer is out of reach of the plants ,not deep enough, the land does not get opened up ,not allowing the land to drain  from heavy rain fall ,  and help repair  the   damage to  soil  structure ,from the above  .

 

[kickstart]

A sugar cane harvester  , during  lunch brake this one  is owned by the  sugar mill, the mill charges 100 baht/ton for cutting, but the owner of the crop  is responsible for fuel, this one  has a 6 cylinder engine ,with fuel  prices reasonable low ,not a bad price ,a guy with the machine  said they is one  bigger  harvester with a  8 cylinder engine  ,good output ,but if  fuel  prices increase  could  become  expensive.

Is this Case harvester ,  with someone else's badges  on ? 

[farmerjo]

http://www.trrsugar.com/e_group_machine.asp

[rflusser]

Hi all,

 

New to this part of the forum -- I'm looking to harvest silage on a larger scale and wondering what's available here as far as forage wagons go. Any dump wagons in Thailand? Other thoughts? Thanks!

 

 

[kickstart]

Hi rflusser

                   I think you  do not know Thailand that  well , the only time I have  forage  wagons  is at Chokchai  farms( Google them), they  are a company  farm milking best part of a 1000 cows? , on a large acreage  ,and are in to all things from the  USA, the breeding of the  cow is based  semen from the USA .

That is the top end  of dairy farming in Thailand  , where I am  the average farm milks 15-20  cows ,and is more likely  to use  grass strimmer  to  cut grass , than a tractor  , or as most farms do use  feed rice straw as a forage feed ,as most farms  do not have the land  to any amount of forage  for they cattle .

I am intrigued as what you intend to with your large  scale  silage harvest ,large scale will need a lot of land  most farms around here are 25 rie .10 acres, there are a few 20 acres blocks  about ,you will  need a lot of  land , which will have to be rented , and silage just to cover the cost of the equipment ,they is none available in Thailand ,so it will have to be imported ,not cheap ,plus import tax ,then a tractor to pull it , available in Thailand ,and a clamp  for the silage will have to be built ,no pre- formed  concrete walled clamps in LOS ,one concrete clamp  was built near me for a large dairy herd ,cost 1 million baht + .I am not even going to ask what you are going to do with a large clamp of silage ,I would say cattle would be involved some where .

As this is a Maize growing thread ,sit down with a large mug of coffee  and go back and look at past posts  about growing maize ,the past 2 years have not been easy ,we use to grow maize ,did ok ,but the whether has not been good ,we lost 40 rie  to drought , farmerjo has had the same problem ,wayned has not faired  much better some years , and we are all in different parts of Thailand,  drought has played a big  part ,price of land to rent has gone up a lot  ,unless you have  your own equipment ,more expense , costs will mount .

Your last  sentence was "any thoughts" ,yes  come over here for 2 months ,visit Chokchie farm ,come back down the road to Mortlec , Salaburi , home of the  DPO , and visit some dairy farms there,  or go to Nong Phoe, in Ratchaburi  province ,then think again . 

Ps. the photo is of chopping maize for silage ,near me.

[farmerjo]

I agree with KS,it's more on a smaller scale.

Here's a link to what sort of gear that can be found in Thailand .

Not to say bigger gear isn't here but run of the mill stuff.http://www.kamolindustry.com/index.php-catid=2.htm 

[rflusser]

10 hours ago, kickstart said:

Hi rflusser

                   I think you  do not know Thailand that  well , the only time I have  forage  wagons  is at Chokchai  farms( Google them), they  are a company  farm milking best part of a 1000 cows? , on a large acreage  ,and are in to all things from the  USA, the breeding of the  cow is based  semen from the USA .

That is the top end  of dairy farming in Thailand  , where I am  the average farm milks 15-20  cows ,and is more likely  to use  grass strimmer  to  cut grass , than a tractor  , or as most farms do use  feed rice straw as a forage feed ,as most farms  do not have the land  to any amount of forage  for they cattle .

I am intrigued as what you intend to with your large  scale  silage harvest ,large scale will need a lot of land  most farms around here are 25 rie .10 acres, there are a few 20 acres blocks  about ,you will  need a lot of  land , which will have to be rented , and silage just to cover the cost of the equipment ,they is none available in Thailand ,so it will have to be imported ,not cheap ,plus import tax ,then a tractor to pull it , available in Thailand ,and a clamp  for the silage will have to be built ,no pre- formed  concrete walled clamps in LOS ,one concrete clamp  was built near me for a large dairy herd ,cost 1 million baht + .I am not even going to ask what you are going to do with a large clamp of silage ,I would say cattle would be involved some where .

As this is a Maize growing thread ,sit down with a large mug of coffee  and go back and look at past posts  about growing maize ,the past 2 years have not been easy ,we use to grow maize ,did ok ,but the whether has not been good ,we lost 40 rie  to drought , farmerjo has had the same problem ,wayned has not faired  much better some years , and we are all in different parts of Thailand,  drought has played a big  part ,price of land to rent has gone up a lot  ,unless you have  your own equipment ,more expense , costs will mount .

Your last  sentence was "any thoughts" ,yes  come over here for 2 months ,visit Chokchie farm ,come back down the road to Mortlec , Salaburi , home of the  DPO , and visit some dairy farms there,  or go to Nong Phoe, in Ratchaburi  province ,then think again . 

Ps. the photo is of chopping maize for silage ,near me.

 

 

KS - thanks for your reply. I totally understand where you're coming from with this. I didn't mention it in my first post so your response is more than fair, but to be clear, I am actually not trying to grow corn, but a giant grass for biomass. The handling of it would be much the same as corn silage which is why I asked on this thread. I am in talks with a farmers collective (1000+ rai) who are looking to move away from rice, and I am trying to determine the availability of certain equipment here, as I know that will be my biggest challenge after the access to land. Sending you a PM now.

 

10 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I agree with KS,it's more on a smaller scale.

Here's a link to what sort of gear that can be found in Thailand .

Not to say bigger gear isn't here but run of the mill stuff.http://www.kamolindustry.com/index.php-catid=2.htm 

 

Thanks farmerjo, this site is definitely helpful!

[kickstart]

Now I where we are going ,the giant  grass you talk about  will probably Nappier grass or Elephant  grass?,becoming popular in Thailand for cattle ,a good feed  if cut at the right stage of growth, 50-60 days  not 150 days.

 A 1000 plus rie ,chopped in to the trailers you  posted,   the haulage logistics  would be not easy to say the least .

So, a  look at my post #656 ,would  a big baler in the photo ,be  able to bale Nappier  grass? ,with bales you load them on to a  truck and away ,I would say you would get more weight on a truck with bales ,than chopped grass  in to a trailer ,reduced haulage costs ,but it  would have to be cut first ,another cost ,as opposed to direct chopping in to a trailer .

In the UK some Nappier  grass is grown for  biomass ,I am not certain  how that is harvested ,a look at  Google will give you the answers.

Maybe my very negative post about baleing   sugar cane leaves have some future  after all.  

[wayned]

The sugar harvest is  in full swing here.  There is still a reduced workforce as the migrant labor is Thai.  This year much more is being harvested without being burnt and it's amazing that most of the trucks coming out of the fields past my house are not overloaded.  In the past someone had to be riding on top of the truck and trailer to lift the electric wires over the load but this year they are  only loaded to the top of the extender bars.  It could be that DLT has set up a temporary weigh station on Highway 1 just before the turn off  for the road to the mill.  Maybe article 44 or 45 has some use after all!

[JungleBiker]

Hi rflusser, 

 

It's not clear to me if you want to harvest "giant grass" to make silage (for feeding cattle) or harvest biomass (for energy production)? Amongst other things, the row spacing will be very different. 

 

I'm attaching a couple of photos (of photos) of a silage making operation in Sakon Nakhon. This is for another 1,000 head dairy farm, not Farm Chokchai. The trailer is a Fliegl, from Germany, imported secondhand. The crop is corn. The Claas Jaguar self-propelled forage harvester was on loan from a company in Khon Kaen. The JD tractor was also on loan. (The farm manager is involved in the cane trash baling initiative mentioned by KS in post #656.)  

 

http://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdigest/2015/08/06/paradise-green-energy-expands-thai-napier-grass-plantation-with-eye-on-power/ 

 

http://www.uwc.co.th/en/?portfolio=biogas-power-plant-and-energy-crop-khon-kaen-province 

 

Paradise Green Energy were displaying/selling Jaguars, Fliegls and some big Fendt tractors at the Khon Kaen Ag show last January. I guess they may be there (at the Uni) again in a week's time. I have the name and number of a sales guy if you want it. 

 

If you want to make silage from napier, then I suggest you'll need to wilt it before ensiling otherwise the moisture content will be too high. I'm assuming you'd harvest it young, as suggested by KS, because then it will have reasonable protein levels. If harvesting for bioenergy, then protein levels will not matter. 

 

If harvesting "giant grass" in the rainy season, you'll need to consider how will the heavy machinery work if the ground is wet/soft? Also consider the damage the machinery will do to your crop if you drive all over the place (Random Traffice Farming). 

 

You may want to Google "Controlled Traffic Farming" (CTF). 

 

You may want to put dual or triple axles on your trailers with wide flotation tyres. There are some forage trailers that have driven wheels but they're not cheap! 

 

There are lots of other things to think about. I did a lot of this same thinking a year ago! 

 

JB. 

 

 

 

 

 

[farmerjo]

Testing if i can post a video.

Putting some stone on my driveway.

LINE_MOVIE_1484975021774.mp4

[JungleBiker]

This (attached photo) is how the Surin elephants get their elephant grass (another name for napier) from Ubon. The tall grass (= low quality forage with ~5% or less protein) is cut and bundled manually. The tractor with the "front loader grab" loads the bundles into the back of a road truck. I guess this method comes from the sugar cane guys (before using mechanical harvesters). 

 

In the USA, and also seen in Thailand, they often use road trucks to follow self-propelled forage harvesters across the field, rather than tractors and trailers as commonly used in Europe.etc. The US trucks are specially modifed for the job (wider tyres, etc). I talked to a Thai guy (knowing a lot about wheels and tyres) about doing this and he reckoned that modifying Thai trucks like that would make them illegal on Thai roads. (Yet that doesn't seem to stop lots of people doing such things with their pick-ups, etc!). 

 

 

 

[JungleBiker]

Attached photos show:

 

An old Jaguar operating in Laos cutting napier without a trailer or truck! (He was just cleaning up his field).This is at a beef cattle feed lot. 

A Chinese harvester filling a truck with napier (down near Korat) for feeding dairy cattle. 

An old JD harvester in Ubon - harvesting napier for bioenergy. 

Jaguar of the Khon Kaen company mentioned above, on display at the KK Ag fair last January. They use napier for both feed and fuel. 

 

Sorry for straying off the main topic of this thread! 

 

 

[farmerjo]

Off to the Khon Kaen fair tomorrow,will try and check on the progress of that company JB.

[farmerjo]

Back from the Khon Kaen ag fair.

Could not find PGE there today but missed going down a few rows.

The size of machinery has certainly increased over the years and good to see some newer implements.

A couple caught my eye with one being similar to a rotovator but instead it had rotating fingers followed by a spiked roller.(maybe have to plough prior)

The 2nd was a disc seeder on i guess 350mm spacings with a front and rear roller.

Tidy setup but think they have missed a trick as i don't think there is enough weight in it to make it a one pass machine,looks like you would have to plough or rotovate the land prior to using which we all know adds further input costs and if you look closely you can see the disc's are rigid mounted to the frame.(no independant suspension)

So the technology is getting closer.

My highlight was seeing a cab on a Kubota dc-70 harvester,i enquired whether the cabs would be available for retro fitting to exisiting machines,the salesman had a blank stare on his face and said,no you have to buy the whole machine.I'm sure it won't be long till it can be done.    

 

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

        That rotary harrow   ,they are a good bit of kit ,you will have to plough first ,a lot better than a rotavator ,they do not cause a pan underground ,thus preventing water draining away ,and you get a better seed bed than from a 7 disc plough   more uniform ,better for small seeds and the roller on the back helps .had one on a farm I worked on in the uk  a 5 meter width one .

But I think it will not be cheap , any idea on the price ?I saw one last year in  Bangkok ,a Lemkin ,imported from  India 170 000 baht  ,not cheap ,you could buy a few 7 disc ploughs for that .

[farmerjo]

13 hours ago, kickstart said:

Hi FJ

        That rotary harrow   ,they are a good bit of kit ,you will have to plough first ,a lot better than a rotavator ,they do not cause a pan underground ,thus preventing water draining away ,and you get a better seed bed than from a 7 disc plough   more uniform ,better for small seeds and the roller on the back helps .had one on a farm I worked on in the uk  a 5 meter width one .

But I think it will not be cheap , any idea on the price ?I saw one last year in  Bangkok ,a Lemkin ,imported from  India 170 000 baht  ,not cheap ,you could buy a few 7 disc ploughs for that .

Hi KS,

Sorry didn't get a price on that as being no-till it doesn't suit my needs,but as you say looks to have more merit than a rotovator.

The 6 in 1 seeder was 90,000 baht.

Another home made machine i came across was a rotovator come row former to lay irrigation hose and plastic.It was very roughly made but probably ideal if you have a small plot and wanted to grow sweet corn.

[wayned]

An amazing thing is happening around here with the cane harvest this year.  As I said earlier they have been cutting many fields without burning first and not overloading the trucks.  I fully expected that the silage that first left after the harvest, a lot since it was not burnt, would be raked and burned, but not so.  They have raked it into rows and have come in with a baler, baled it into giant rectangular bales, loaded it on trucks with the cane loader and have carted it off.  Amazing, no black cloud of dust so far, but they have just started as the workforce is very low but keeping my fingers crossed.  My 10 Rai has already been cut by the BIL and is gone.  Not sure of the current price and really don't expect that BIL will come forward with any baht,.  I intend to tell him tomorrow that the rent on the land from now on is on his shoulders!

[thoongfoned]

around the village  (udon thani provience) the cane  harvest is in the last stages, they have been at it since beginning december. price at the village weigh stations are 1200baht ton, this would be for the unburnt cane. last year the price locally was about 900baht ton.

[kickstart]

On ‎27‎/‎1‎/‎2560 at 1:24 PM, wayned said:

An amazing thing is happening around here with the cane harvest this year.  As I said earlier they have been cutting many fields without burning first and not overloading the trucks.  I fully expected that the silage that first left after the harvest, a lot since it was not burnt, would be raked and burned, but not so.  They have raked it into rows and have come in with a baler, baled it into giant rectangular bales, loaded it on trucks with the cane loader and have carted it off.  Amazing, no black cloud of dust so far, but they have just started as the workforce is very low but keeping my fingers crossed.  My 10 Rai has already been cut by the BIL and is gone.  Not sure of the current price and really don't expect that BIL will come forward with any baht,.  I intend to tell him tomorrow that the rent on the land from now on is on his shoulders!

So, sounds though it is actually  happening, baling the sugar cane   straw and taking it away for  bio fuel, normal big bales of wheat or barley  straw weight best part of a  ton ,but it seems that cane straw  is a lot less,  if a  cane  loader  can pick them up .

It is a good idea to use cane straw as a bio fuel ,but it could be short lived ,can not see a baler picking up straw that has been cut with a machine ,would it  be too  short to bale , and with the problem of finding  cane cutters,  and cane  harvesters becoming more popular and the cost of a baler ,and tractor to pull it ,I hope not ,they is a lot of energy laying in a  sugar cane field .

Like  weyned here  in Lopburi , sugar cane goes straight from field to mill ,no weigh stations  around here  ,price is about 1000 baht/ton ,like FJ said a reduced price  for burnt cane ,but coming home most nights after dark ,I see plenty cane being burnt ,so  not much of an incentive ,but most years  they is   reduced price for  burnt cane ,growers thinking of the cutters well being  ,more than the environment.

 Price also depends on the "Kwam-Wun",sugar  content    of the  cane, sugar   content  this  year seems  high.        

[wayned]

The price of the non-burnt cane at the mill is less, but I think that is off set by the increased price of harvesting cane that has not been burnt.  When there was a large migrant harvesting force, almost all cane was burnt.  A few years ago, the cost of harvesting cane that was not burnt was almost double.  If I remember right the harvester was paid 1.8 baht for a stacked and tied 20 stalk pack of burnt cane and was paid over 3 baht for a stack ad ties 10 stalk pack of cane that was not burnt.  I'm told that the current labor force don't want to cut cane that has been burnt.

 

I agree that it's impossible to bale the machine harvested remains but it is much easier to till directly into the soil.  We'll see how long the baling lasts, maybe just a fad, but a welcome one so far.  Have yet to see the actual baler and there aren't many nechanical harvesters around here.

[farmerjo]

The only legitimate reason i could see for removing the straw(stubble) from the field of sugar would be what you are being paid for it(worthwhile) and your field is full of weed seeds you want removed.

It makes far more sense to me to leave it spread on the ground for mulch and weed suppression.

I don't know how much farmers are getting paid for it(straw) but you would expect it would have to worth the cost of a herbicide application.

To me the better solution is to update the fertilizer application implement that can slice through the straw and insert fertilizer at correct depth without having it tangle around the implement leaving dragged piles and a mess down the rows.Simply retrofitting straight or serated disc's in place of the straight shank tynes and adding extra weight to the frame would be a step in the right direction.

The price varies for sugar at the weigh stations around here about 60baht/ton with 1130baht/ton being the best at the moment,i would say harvest is 85 percent complete in our area in which 70 percent has been burnt.As Wayned said,nice to see the trucks not overloaded and no roll overs so far but i guess another sting for the farmers with transport costs being passed on with lighter loads. Still i take my hat of to the sugar companies in my area who have basically turned around the farming sector here,the days of loan sharks are well gone and the companies policy on following up on growers to make sure there farming properly and making a profit has had a great effect on the improved standard of living by all in the community. 

.       

[kickstart]

Going  back to JB's informative   post the other week, about  forage harvesters ,this one was at the Thai dairy show  this week ,a Class Jaguar ,with a V8 engine, 460 HP, can chop up to  60 ton an hour ,would do an average field  in this area in 20 minutes  ,spend more time turning than working .

Would do ok for cutting grass  on  Biofuel  system, but you would need a lot of grass ,for it to pay for its self.

Price? 19 million  baht, and this was not the biggest one Class make.

[farmerjo]

Hi KS,

Did they have any 3 point linkage Hay rakes at the show.

[kickstart]

9 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Hi KS,

Did they have any 3 point linkage Hay rakes at the show.

Hi  FJ

          Yes they  did have  one hay  rake, but  I have no information  on them, or  any  photos  it was pto driven  ,would put 2 rows in to 1,

I would say it  come from India .

This company  www.cam-shaktiman.com ,had a forage harvester at the show ,  you  could see if they have any hay rakes in there catalogue, they  also come from India .

We have a few in this area ,been around for a while ,where they come from I do not know ,a job  for  Mr Google .

[farmerjo]

Little bit quiet on here understanderbly with sugar nearly done(1150 price around here)

The government are in town wanting to see land papers.

Once again we company the old land owners to the temple.hand over the papers to original owners to sign then take papers back.No change after 14 years of paying the land rates but happy we continue on.This is sor por kor land.Land starting to dry out now so a couple of chemical knockdowns after some rain and should be ready for a corn crop 2nd week of april.

Happy farming for 2017.

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

        Err,  2ed week  of April ,the Songkran  festival ,that use to be the saying around here , to plant corn ,if this year is like last year .more like beginning of May ,and most years  around here for the past 5 years ,  no rain at all ,me and the misses where only saying this last week ,been a few years since   seen corn was  planted around the  Songkran  festival, we use to wait until 3ed week of May ,more likely more chance of regular  rain ,April to hit and miss ,some rain comes  ,plant corn ,then  hot season comes back ,if it ever goes away then , seedbed dry's out ,crop dies .

I hope I am wrong ,as I said the past few  years ......global  warming? , we could debate that  until ............the corn grows . 

Sugar around here  still a lot to cut ,our mills will close  about middle of  next  month ,still  see  glows in the sky  evening time ,burning cane .

 A Farang  friend of  mine ,his niece  gets is getting  married next  month ,going to be a big do ,there 25 rie of  sugar cane  will be paying for most of it  ,that is if the sugar mill  pays on time . 

[CLW]

 
Thanks farmerjo, this site is definitely helpful!

I'm doing a research at the moment about converting rice paddies to grow biomass plants.
If you're interested, just sent me a PM.

[farmerjo]

18 hours ago, CLW said:

I'm doing a research at the moment about converting rice paddies to grow biomass plants.
If you're interested, just sent me a PM.

Hi CLW,

Your welcome to share here if you like,i'm sure there are a lot of interested people in this subject.Basically been trying to do the same for quite a few years now.

My initial process was to take out the levi's and deep plow but found there was still that crust below causing waterlogging.

Then about 3 years ago decided my best approach would be to go minimum tillage and use a combination of deep ripping and gypsum to open up the soil and leave whatever residue on top as mulch to break down slowly and protect the top layer.Have just started to see some benefits recently with the land staying green right up till about two weeks ago(before it would be dead for 4 months),admittingly we did have an inch of rain mid january to freshen things up but my rainfall records show there's a fifty percent chance of that.Living soil.Still my biggest problem is weed control which i will continue to work on but have proven i could grown a corn crop on 10 inches of rainfall so it's finding that balance of retaining the right amount of moisture in the land.For later in the season when the bigger rains come more regularly i plan to put in a series of contours so any excess water is removed quickly from the field.There are many different methods for drainage,contours,y salt trenches,tiling,mole ploughing etc so it's what suits your budget and if you don't have one, i say just grow rice.   

[farmerjo]

Maybe one day in Thailand,although i think a smaller scale on tracks would be better suited.

My brother has converted one of his JD'S into a sprayer.