German president labels Armenian killings as genocide

[webfact]

German president labels Armenian killings as genocide
GEIR MOULSON, Associated Press

BERLIN (AP) — Germany's president on Thursday described the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks a century ago as genocide, marking a shift in his country's stance after officials previously avoided the term.

President Joachim Gauck said it is clear today that "the fate of the Armenians is exemplary for the history of mass destruction, ethnic cleansing, expulsions and genocides which marks the 20th century in such a terrible way."

Germany's Parliament will debate a motion using the same words on Friday, a formulation that the government has backed after consultations with lawmakers and Gauck's office.

Gauck made a second, more direct, reference to "the genocide against the Armenians."

Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I, an event widely viewed by scholars as the first genocide of the 20th century.

Turkey, however, denies that the deaths constituted genocide, saying the toll has been inflated, and that those killed were victims of civil war and unrest. It has lobbied fiercely to prevent countries from recognizing the massacres as genocide.

Turkey recalled its ambassador to the Vatican after Pope Francis described the killings as genocide this month, and said it was recalling its ambassador to Austria after that country's parliament followed suit.

The German government hasn't in the past used the term genocide, but faced increasing pressure from lawmakers and the prospect of Gauck, an outspoken former pastor with no party affiliation, using the word.

On Tuesday, Merkel had what the German government described as a "good conversation" with Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu on the matter.

Davutoglu this week extended condolences to the descendants of the Armenians who were killed, but in his conciliatory message criticized efforts to press Turkey to recognize the slaughter as genocide.

Gauck, speaking at a nondenominational memorial service in Berlin, said it is important "to recognize, lament and mourn the planned destruction of a people in its whole terrible reality."

"In remembering, we are not putting anyone alive today in the dock," he said. "But what the victims' descendants can rightly expect is the recognition of historical facts and also historical guilt."

Gauck noted that Germany, which a century ago didn't want to endanger relations with its Ottoman ally, also must consider what responsibility it shares.

German soldiers were involved in planning and carrying out deportations, he said, adding that "tips from German observers and diplomats who recognized the will to destroy in the action against the Armenians were ignored."

"No one needs to be afraid of the truth," he said.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-04-24

[Sydebolle]

One state has to start and it's time to call a mule not a horse and a f...up is a f..up; this political correctness pussyfooting around the hot cake does not help to solve the mounting piles of problems (note to self = inform Bruxelles and the European Union).

I am not German but it is also time to put the history, albeit forever visible, to rest. The Germans have been beaten for their genocide which started some 80 years ago as and lasted ten horrible years. This inferiority has been misused over and over and over by others for generations ever since. It's time to look forward, to avoid such Turkish, German and Cambodian genocide incidences for good in the future. Bravo; what Gauck did took guts and Turkey has to grow up to reality.

If Turkey orders all their ambassadors back for consultations - fine with the rest of the planet. They then can start discussing how life goes on in the 21st century and why, for example, their (excellent) national airline offers booze in every variation internationally whereas on domestic flights there is no booze available due to their Islamic beliefs and religion.

[simple1]

One state has to start and it's time to call a mule not a horse and a f...up is a f..up; this political correctness pussyfooting around the hot cake does not help to solve the mounting piles of problems (note to self = inform Bruxelles and the European Union).

I am not German but it is also time to put the history, albeit forever visible, to rest. The Germans have been beaten for their genocide which started some 80 years ago as and lasted ten horrible years. This inferiority has been misused over and over and over by others for generations ever since. It's time to look forward, to avoid such Turkish, German and Cambodian genocide incidences for good in the future. Bravo; what Gauck did took guts and Turkey has to grow up to reality.

If Turkey orders all their ambassadors back for consultations - fine with the rest of the planet. They then can start discussing how life goes on in the 21st century and why, for example, their (excellent) national airline offers booze in every variation internationally whereas on domestic flights there is no booze available due to their Islamic beliefs and religion.

in fact Germany is not the leader in it's official recognition. To date 24 governments have used the term 'genocide' to recognise the massacre of the Armenians,.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide_recognition

[NeverSure]

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

[orosee]

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

Every time someone thinks they made a smart remark but ended up posting a particularly dumb one, I feel the need to say something to remind them that thinking should go before posting and, in so many cases, thinking would lead to not posting (it's a surprise then that my post count isn't in the quadruple digits yet).

Every now and then a post comes along that shows so little sign of intelligence, that I'm not even sure if that would help and I'm left speechless...

Edited April 24, 2015 by orosee

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

And how would the Turks describe what was done the the American Indians? Glass houses.

[geriatrickid]

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

Please place the statement in context. Also note that for the first time, a German high official has acknowledged the role that Germany played in the Armenian genocide. Germany for a long time didn't want to address the issue.

I would argue that the Germans aged 50 and under who have taken on their past genocidal history allowed one of the remaining German taboos to be dealt with. The Germany of today is essentially a different country than 50 years ago, and even 25 years ago. Although the absorption of the backward east disrupted social progress for awhile, Germany has attained the higher moral ground now when it comes to human rights issues because of its willingness to critically examine its past. It was a difficult exercise, but getting rid of those skeletons has made Germany stronger. Look at the change in attitudes even a recent generation has made: Previously the prosecutors didn't want to go after WWII junior concentration camp guards. Well, now, the younger generation has spoken and they said get them, and we now have the accountant of Auschwitz finally facing justice. I honestly believe that Germany is returning to its rightful role that it occupied in the late 1800's as a force of enlightenment and a land of integrity.

[geriatrickid]

And how would the Turks describe what was done the the American Indians? Glass houses.

The horrific history that accompanied the settlement of North America was a product of ignorance and greed. It was not a planned intentional act carried out in a small amount of time. You make the assumption that the native people were one big homogeneous group who got along. They comprised different cultures and nations, and much of the time were at war with each other. The native people when they warred with each other killed off their male prisoners and enslaved the others. There is no argument that there was injustice and persecution of some, but there were also attempts to treat them fairly within the context of the times.

You are judging the settlers from the perspective of 2015 and it is an inaccurate judgement. That doesn't excuse the injustice, but the over riding fact today is that the people who inherited the mess that their forefathers wrought upon the native peoples have accepted their responsibility and have paid for it dearly with large amounts of money and with the extension of rights that non native peoples do not have. Turkey hasn't even acknowledged their wrongful act. Both the USA and Canada have. Today, in North American schools, the injustices are not hidden. There is an attempt to teach people about the wrongs of the past. The media doesn't shy away from the subject and no one is fired from his government job for raising the issue. In Turkey, mention of Turkey's responsibility is greeted by state persecution and a ban on any discussion of the subject. Big, big difference.

[nahkit]

And how would the Turks describe what was done the the American Indians? Glass houses.

Not at all the same thing being discussed in the OP.

The Americans recognise their past wrongs regarding the American Indians, the Turks still continue to pretend the Armenian massacres never happened.

[ezzra]

Oh no... dear Edrogan, the new Turkish sultan wouldn't not like it one bit... it seems that the world

finally is waking up to the Ottoman empire atrocities, finally, justice and recognitions of a genocide

perpetrated long time ago...

[Steely Dan]

I'm looking forward to the intemperate hissy fit from Erdogan's government, same as we witnessed recently when the Pope called the Armenian genocide for what it was. Turkish officials even managed to insult Argentina in the ensuing fallout.

http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist/abdullah-bozkurt/real-motives-behind-pope-bashing-in-turkey_378474.html

Incidentally President Obama went back on yet another promise when he declined to designate the Armenian genocide as such.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/barack-obama-will-not-label-1915-massacre-of-armenians-a-genocide

Edited April 24, 2015 by Steely Dan

[simple1]

I'm looking forward to the intemperate hissy fit from Erdogan's government, same as we witnessed recently when the Pope called the Armenian genocide for what it was. Turkish officials even managed to insult Argentina in the ensuing fallout.

Incidentally President Obama went back on yet another promise when he declined to designate the Armenian genocide as such.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/barack-obama-will-not-label-1915-massacre-of-armenians-a-genocide

Realpolitik

[jollyhangmon]

I'm looking forward to the intemperate hissy fit from Erdogan's government, same as we witnessed recently when the Pope called the Armenian genocide for what it was. Turkish officials even managed to insult Argentina in the ensuing fallout.

Incidentally President Obama went back on yet another promise when he declined to designate the Armenian genocide as such.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/barack-obama-will-not-label-1915-massacre-of-armenians-a-genocide

Realpolitik

... yes, that or >pussyfooting<.

Have to keep Incirlik air base in mind amongst other 'realpolitic' issues ...

[HerbalEd]

As an American I'm embarrassed that my president doesn't have the balls to say the same thing. Shame on him.

[Grouse]

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

Please place the statement in context. Also note that for the first time, a German high official has acknowledged the role that Germany played in the Armenian genocide. Germany for a long time didn't want to address the issue.

I would argue that the Germans aged 50 and under who have taken on their past genocidal history allowed one of the remaining German taboos to be dealt with. The Germany of today is essentially a different country than 50 years ago, and even 25 years ago. Although the absorption of the backward east disrupted social progress for awhile, Germany has attained the higher moral ground now when it comes to human rights issues because of its willingness to critically examine its past. It was a difficult exercise, but getting rid of those skeletons has made Germany stronger. Look at the change in attitudes even a recent generation has made: Previously the prosecutors didn't want to go after WWII junior concentration camp guards. Well, now, the younger generation has spoken and they said get them, and we now have the accountant of Auschwitz finally facing justice. I honestly believe that Germany is returning to its rightful role that it occupied in the late 1800's as a force of enlightenment and a land of integrity.

Yes, I absolutely second all that. Well said!

Incidentally, one reason why the worst of the Nazi criminals were not prosecuted ruthlessly after the war was the apparant need to hold back Russian influence.

Without any sense of irony, Germany is one of the most civilised and peaceful societies I know

[Grouse]

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

Pathetic

[winstonc]

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

Please place the statement in context. Also note that for the first time, a German high official has acknowledged the role that Germany played in the Armenian genocide. Germany for a long time didn't want to address the issue.

I would argue that the Germans aged 50 and under who have taken on their past genocidal history allowed one of the remaining German taboos to be dealt with. The Germany of today is essentially a different country than 50 years ago, and even 25 years ago. Although the absorption of the backward east disrupted social progress for awhile, Germany has attained the higher moral ground now when it comes to human rights issues because of its willingness to critically examine its past. It was a difficult exercise, but getting rid of those skeletons has made Germany stronger. Look at the change in attitudes even a recent generation has made: Previously the prosecutors didn't want to go after WWII junior concentration camp guards. Well, now, the younger generation has spoken and they said get them, and we now have the accountant of Auschwitz finally facing justice. I honestly believe that Germany is returning to its rightful role that it occupied in the late 1800's as a force of enlightenment and a land of integrity.

Yes, I absolutely second all that. Well said!

Incidentally, one reason why the worst of the Nazi criminals were not prosecuted ruthlessly after the war was the apparant need to hold back Russian influence.

Without any sense of irony, Germany is one of the most civilised and peaceful societies I know

it took them long enough though..after 2 attempts at world domination..but they have the consolation of ruling europe now ..albeit financially..

[Steely Dan]

I'm looking forward to the intemperate hissy fit from Erdogan's government, same as we witnessed recently when the Pope called the Armenian genocide for what it was. Turkish officials even managed to insult Argentina in the ensuing fallout.

Incidentally President Obama went back on yet another promise when he declined to designate the Armenian genocide as such.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/barack-obama-will-not-label-1915-massacre-of-armenians-a-genocide

Realpolitik

Yes indeed realpolitik to deny the systematic rape murder and torture leading to the deaths of over a million Armenians. Some bodies were burned to a crisp to discover any gold they may have swallowed. Others were crucified. Some had molten butter poured into their wounds. Some babies were thrown in the air onto Turkish bayonets in front of their mothers. Some had horse shoes nailed to their feet and were forced to march through the streets.

This was the fruit of the last Caliphate, very convenient to deny it if you have no intention of crushing the new Caliphate. And all the while Erdogan the Islamist accuses Israel of genocide in Gaza with obscene hyperbolic rhetoric, which is parroted by ignorant leftist jackasses, who probably couldn't even point to Armenia on a map.

Yes indeed realpolitik in all its glory.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5790/ignoring_the_armenian_genocide_by_the_last_islamic_caliphate

[jollyhangmon]

One state has to start and it's time to call a mule not a horse and a f...up is a f..up; this political correctness pussyfooting around the hot cake does not help to solve the mounting piles of problems (note to self = inform Bruxelles and the European Union).

I am not German but it is also time to put the history, albeit forever visible, to rest. The Germans have been beaten for their genocide which started some 80 years ago as and lasted ten horrible years. This inferiority has been misused over and over and over by others for generations ever since. It's time to look forward, to avoid such Turkish, German and Cambodian genocide incidences for good in the future. Bravo; what Gauck did took guts and Turkey has to grow up to reality.

If Turkey orders all their ambassadors back for consultations - fine with the rest of the planet. They then can start discussing how life goes on in the 21st century and why, for example, their (excellent) national airline offers booze in every variation internationally whereas on domestic flights there is no booze available due to their Islamic beliefs and religion.

Right now Kim Jung Erdogan is threatening Austria with 'economical consequences' regarding that matter.

They are quivering i guess, then again they where pretty successful already acquiring new customers in need to replace the sanctioned Russki trade.

Thus a healthy >funk you malaka< from there ...

[simple1]

I'm looking forward to the intemperate hissy fit from Erdogan's government, same as we witnessed recently when the Pope called the Armenian genocide for what it was. Turkish officials even managed to insult Argentina in the ensuing fallout.

Incidentally President Obama went back on yet another promise when he declined to designate the Armenian genocide as such.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/barack-obama-will-not-label-1915-massacre-of-armenians-a-genocide

Realpolitik

Yes indeed realpolitik to deny the systematic rape murder and torture leading to the deaths of over a million Armenians. Some bodies were burned to a crisp to discover any gold they may have swallowed. Others were crucified. Some had molten butter poured into their wounds. Some babies were thrown in the air onto Turkish bayonets in front of their mothers. Some had horse shoes nailed to their feet and were forced to march through the streets.

This was the fruit of the last Caliphate, very convenient to deny it if you have no intention of crushing the new Caliphate. And all the while Erdogan the Islamist accuses Israel of genocide in Gaza with obscene hyperbolic rhetoric, which is parroted by ignorant leftist jackasses, who probably couldn't even point to Armenia on a map.

Yes indeed realpolitik in all its glory.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5790/ignoring_the_armenian_genocide_by_the_last_islamic_caliphate

When has Obama ever denied the killings, he actually used the words “one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century”. Why has no other US Administration officially used the word 'genocide' to describe what happened in Armenia during WW1? Indeed I have read three other presidential candidates have in the pass promised to officially describe the killings as genocide, but upon obtaining office never did so.

The Guardian article you linked to provides a number of considerations for the Administration not to use the word 'genocide' that pragmatically results in Realpolitik.

[Scott]

Unless I missed something, I believe this thread is NOT about Obama or the US.

[wabothai]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Pot meet kettle. Which country doesn't have skeletons in its closet? None of us was alive to do those things.

Germany accusing another country of genocide, and wanting to stir the pot. How quaint.

merely acknowledges genocide. no accusations.

[Steely Dan]

I'm looking forward to the intemperate hissy fit from Erdogan's government, same as we witnessed recently when the Pope called the Armenian genocide for what it was. Turkish officials even managed to insult Argentina in the ensuing fallout.

Incidentally President Obama went back on yet another promise when he declined to designate the Armenian genocide as such.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/barack-obama-will-not-label-1915-massacre-of-armenians-a-genocide

Realpolitik

Yes indeed realpolitik to deny the systematic rape murder and torture leading to the deaths of over a million Armenians. Some bodies were burned to a crisp to discover any gold they may have swallowed. Others were crucified. Some had molten butter poured into their wounds. Some babies were thrown in the air onto Turkish bayonets in front of their mothers. Some had horse shoes nailed to their feet and were forced to march through the streets.

This was the fruit of the last Caliphate, very convenient to deny it if you have no intention of crushing the new Caliphate. And all the while Erdogan the Islamist accuses Israel of genocide in Gaza with obscene hyperbolic rhetoric, which is parroted by ignorant leftist jackasses, who probably couldn't even point to Armenia on a map.

Yes indeed realpolitik in all its glory.

http://www.thecommentator.com/article/5790/ignoring_the_armenian_genocide_by_the_last_islamic_caliphate

When has Obama ever denied the killings, he actually used the words “one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century”. Why has no other US Administration officially used the word 'genocide' to describe what happened in Armenia during WW1? Indeed I have read three other presidential candidates have in the pass promised to officially describe the killings as genocide, but upon obtaining office never did so.

The Guardian article you linked to provides a number of considerations for the Administration not to use the word 'genocide' that pragmatically results in Realpolitik.

It appears though that such considerations as realpolitik don't influence the Germans, even with their large ethnic Turkish population.

[simple1]

It appears though that such considerations as realpolitik don't influence the Germans, even with their large ethnic Turkish population.

Posts removed to enable reply.

Security concerns were assessed in Germany, but pushing ahead with the intent to make a formal recognition this summer - all good. Guess that Turkey needs to be careful how far they push their agenda with Germany as it is Turkey's largest investor and trade partner.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germany-close-to-recognizing-armenian-massacres-as-genocide-1429872387

Edited April 25, 2015 by simple1

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply removed.