'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'

[2fishin2]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

Sounds like you need to get out and see the real Thailand....your view is onesided

[No Apologist]

The moment I read the headline, I knew beyond a doubt it was from THE NATION.

I don't have the stomach today, so I'll assume it's the usual, fictitious story used to make a weird conclusion.

In America we have Fox News.

[sandrew33]

So no chance that they just get peeved at seeing their tax money being wasted and stolen by elected criminals? Or that having those criminals propose granting themselves an amnesty to cover their crimes, past and still being committed, was just too corrupt?

You do realise that your response implies that the current regime isn't corrupt? Isn't looking after itself re past "crimes"? Isn't "wasting their tax money"?

That's your position?

Edited April 28, 2015 by sandrew33

[Docno]

The Thai middle class is group that is "used" by the upper class. This so called middle class is comprised of people who are less smart than those they believe to be the unintelligent lower class citizens of Thailand, namely the Red Shirts.They were used as fodder to support the demonstrations which allowed the military to take control of the country in order to give the upper class the control they cannot achieve through elections. The upper class are crafty and evil bastards just as they are in almost every country in the world. Especially the USA.

I think there's a grain of truth to what you say. The elites who have been running this country since year zero are not stupid. They know that when a middle class emerges in a country, it is often lined up against the old elite because the elite represents an exclusionary ceiling... just look at the American and French Revolutions. They were middle class revolutions (though the poor were recruited for the front lines). In Thailand's case, the elite was able to convince the middle class that their interests were aligned in opposition to the great unwashed masses and the bogeyman, Thaksin, prodding them on like a herd of dim-witted buffalo.They've bought into the idea that, arm in arm with the elite, only they can take care of the country and protect the royal institution. And so democracy must be controlled...

So no chance that they just get peeved at seeing their tax money being wasted and stolen by elected criminals? Or that having those criminals propose granting themselves an amnesty to cover their crimes, past and still being committed, was just too corrupt?

Nope - no chance. Did you read the article? These scions of the middle class think that the numerical majority of their country are too stupid to make decisions. They openly admit it. These students are not worried about their tax money -- what taxes are they paying? -- they're worried about loss of power, control, and privilege. In fact, using university students for this informal study was unintentionally brilliant in the sense that it factors out the justifications you're giving. These students don't pay taxes. But they do see the threat to their power and privilege....

[sandrew33]

Sounds like you need to get out and see the real Thailand....your view is onesided

Mate, if you want to attribute quotes to me, at least make sure they are my quotes. Edited April 28, 2015 by sandrew33

[Somtamnication]

Shouldn't be too hard to implement. Their friends, the Americans, have had this system down (thank you Patriot Act) since 911.

[NCC1701A]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Too late.

The war has begun.

That Charter was a declaration of war.

America now will make sure the Chinese don't get Thailand .

To do that you know what must happen.

This military is doomed

Invasion ? alt=blink.png>

So when do the Marines arrive ... the young ladies of Pattaya are quivering in anticipation to know ! alt=laugh.png>

will Thailand have their own version of Baghdad Bob?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXl1GkWWGmA

[h90]

""Elected politicians will be weak [under the new charter] as they will be overseen by unelected bodies,"

That is to some extend in all democracies. Prime example are the independent courts.

[Docno]

There are probably a few people here, like myself, who have friends among both the Thai professional class and the working (or farming) class. For me, I've made friends with some Thai managers in the course of my work, but my gf comes from a small town in Isaan. Having conversations with people in these different 'circles' can be quite instructive. The first thing I note is that my experience is something they don't have: while I have friendships with professionals and farmers, they don't interact with each other. The professionals see the farmer-class people selling noodles on the street or being lightly made fun of on TV, while the farmers see the higher-classes in their TV dramas worrying about what model of Mercedes to drive next. The professionals I know have a patronising, but not hostile, attitude toward the farming class -- they seem them as a child-like people who are easily influenced and not bright/educated enough to make decisions for themselves. The farmer-types I know seem to be more varied in their opinions, which range from resignation about the status quo (i.e., the 'Bangkok elite' will always control things) to outright hostility. And I have known one 'poor' Isaan lady (an ex-gf) who was rabidly yellow-shirt in her perspective (to the point of advocating war on Cambodia). But I will say that the farmer people I know are not as ignorant as some want to believe .... I can have good conversations with them about these issues. They have a good degree of political awareness. They are not unaware of Thaksin's excesses/misdeeds, but they think the politicians 'on the other side' are no different except that they are willfully blind to the needs of the poor. In this sense, their voting behaviour is quite rational and certainly reflects what they've seen and experienced in past decades. I, for one, cannot argue with that experience...

Edited April 28, 2015 by Docno

[LannaGuy]

particularly the middle and upper middle class, were disillusioned by the fact that their party of choice kept losing elections

Yea isn't it a pain??? those damn voters who want democracy and freedom of choice how dare they! the elite were born to rule we all know that (well a small minority and some TVF posters know that)

[lostoday]

<quote>'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'</quote>

Yes, all 15 of them. Thailand has no real "middle-class" to speak of. There are the poor, working poor and psuedo-elite.

Don't the middle class live in Bangkok, wear yellow* shirts and refuse to pay for the poor people to sit at home and drink moonshine?

* Color code for media. Yellow; middle and upper class.

Red; poor and rich power hungry exploiter class

The question remains why would anyone in the minority want free and fair elections.

Edited April 28, 2015 by lostoday

[h90]

There are probably a few people here, like myself, who have friends among both the Thai professional class and the working (or farming) class. For me, I've made friends with some Thai managers in the course of my work, but my gf comes from a small town in Isaan. Having conversations with people in these different 'circles' can be quite instructive. The first thing I note is that my experience is something they don't have: while I have friendships with professionals and farmers, they don't interact with each other. The professionals see the farmer-class people selling noodles on the street or being lightly made fun of on TV, while the farmers see the higher-classes in their TV dramas worrying about what model of Mercedes to drive next. The professionals I know have a patronising, but not hostile, attitude toward the farming class -- they seem them as a child-like people who are easily influenced and not bright/educated enough to make decisions for themselves. The farmer-types I know seem to be more varied in their opinions, which range from resignation about the status quo (i.e., the 'Bangkok elite' will always control things) to outright hostility. And I have known one 'poor' Isaan lady (an ex-gf) who was rabidly yellow-shirt in her perspective (to the point of advocating war on Cambodia). But I will say that the farmer people I know are not as ignorant as some want to believe .... I can have good conversations with them about these issues. They have a good degree of political awareness. They are not unaware of Thaksin's excesses/misdeeds, but they think the politicians 'on the other side' are no different except that they are willfully blind to the needs of the poor. In this sense, their voting behaviour is quite rational and certainly reflects what they've seen and experienced in past decades. I, for one, cannot argue with that experience...

What do you think you can change as farmer? If you are farmer, uneducated refusing all the offers for free education, refusing to think out of the box (higher profit plants, organic farming, sustainable farming). Just buy the seeds, use lots of expensive chemicals and sell to the middle man. What can the Bangkok Elite do for you?

There are already 1 Million projects from the royal family, from NGOs, from Santi Asoke. But they aren't popular.

Santi Asoke farmer, don't know what to do with all their money and for some products the waiting lists are very long...that proofs you can do well as farmer.

[LingLek]

Too late.

The war has begun.

That Charter was a declaration of war.

America now will make sure the Chinese don't get Thailand .

To do that you know what must happen.

This military is doomed

Please explain. I'd have thought the US would be very supportive of authoritarian rule.

[Eric Loh]

Fine except that the middle class and their establishment cahoots are probably less than 5% of the population. History has lots of sad endings when the social and political order were dominated by the bourgeois.

[LingLek]

There are probably a few people here, like myself, who have friends among both the Thai professional class and the working (or farming) class. For me, I've made friends with some Thai managers in the course of my work, but my gf comes from a small town in Isaan. Having conversations with people in these different 'circles' can be quite instructive. The first thing I note is that my experience is something they don't have: while I have friendships with professionals and farmers, they don't interact with each other. The professionals see the farmer-class people selling noodles on the street or being lightly made fun of on TV, while the farmers see the higher-classes in their TV dramas worrying about what model of Mercedes to drive next. The professionals I know have a patronising, but not hostile, attitude toward the farming class -- they seem them as a child-like people who are easily influenced and not bright/educated enough to make decisions for themselves. The farmer-types I know seem to be more varied in their opinions, which range from resignation about the status quo (i.e., the 'Bangkok elite' will always control things) to outright hostility. And I have known one 'poor' Isaan lady (an ex-gf) who was rabidly yellow-shirt in her perspective (to the point of advocating war on Cambodia). But I will say that the farmer people I know are not as ignorant as some want to believe .... I can have good conversations with them about these issues. They have a good degree of political awareness. They are not unaware of Thaksin's excesses/misdeeds, but they think the politicians 'on the other side' are no different except that they are willfully blind to the needs of the poor. In this sense, their voting behaviour is quite rational and certainly reflects what they've seen and experienced in past decades. I, for one, cannot argue with that experience...

What do you think you can change as farmer? If you are farmer, uneducated refusing all the offers for free education, refusing to think out of the box (higher profit plants, organic farming, sustainable farming). Just buy the seeds, use lots of expensive chemicals and sell to the middle man. What can the Bangkok Elite do for you?

There are already 1 Million projects from the royal family, from NGOs, from Santi Asoke. But they aren't popular.

Santi Asoke farmer, don't know what to do with all their money and for some products the waiting lists are very long...that proofs you can do well as farmer.

This presupposes some sort of mental process free of influences, ideology, need. No one thinks outside of the box, in that sense, h90. The minds of Bangkok Elites or 'educated' minorities are not somehow unimpaired or unimpressed wax slabs; nor do they dispense their knowledge to the illiterates masses without interest.

[LingLek]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

dude what are you smoking ? the only rape of this country has occurred when something was taken by force , that is what rape is , you see it , you want it , you take it . ehhh...... kinda like a coup .

I used rape because the incompetent and corrupt criminals running this country were very happy with the situation while many of those who elected them were being f##ked big time. You have to remember that rape not only covers forcible intercourse, it also includes abuse of those unconscious, insensible or stupefied.

Are you suggesting that large segments of the Thai socius are mindless?

[jayboy]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

And it's mainly though not exclusively comprised of those of Chinese extraction.

It's this group that has hung on the coat tails of the old feudal/corporate/miltary/elites.

They believe the Thai majority is too poor/ignorant/stupid to be the deciding force in politics - despite their overwhelming numbers.

The ethnic division between the SinoThai minority and the rest is usually down played - for good reasons.The record of assimilation of the Chinese is excellent.

But now perhaps this minority needs to ponder the implications of their overt support for repression - given on balance the opposition of the great majority of Thai people.

What could possibly go wrong?

[LingLek]

The Thai middle class is group that is "used" by the upper class. This so called middle class is comprised of people who are less smart than those they believe to be the unintelligent lower class citizens of Thailand, namely the Red Shirts.They were used as fodder to support the demonstrations which allowed the military to take control of the country in order to give the upper class the control they cannot achieve through elections. The upper class are crafty and evil bastards just as they are in almost every country in the world. Especially the USA.

I think there's a grain of truth to what you say. The elites who have been running this country since year zero are not stupid. They know that when a middle class emerges in a country, it is often lined up against the old elite because the elite represents an exclusionary ceiling... just look at the American and French Revolutions. They were middle class revolutions (though the poor were recruited for the front lines). In Thailand's case, the elite was able to convince the middle class that their interests were aligned in opposition to the great unwashed masses and the bogeyman, Thaksin, prodding them on like a herd of dim-witted buffalo.They've bought into the idea that, arm in arm with the elite, only they can take care of the country and protect the royal institution. And so democracy must be controlled...

There is an assumption in this and many other posts that some people are less mentally adroit than others and that the poster can diagnose degrees of imbecility, particularly amongst Thais, with little or no reflection on self.

[maderaroja]

"The beatings will continue until morale improves", Mr. Christian.

[manhood]

As long as the Thai people aren't even able to have a dialog in the families, children never learn the way of creating an open mind and come up with their voice and opinion.

This thai culture is stucked in an old system of the rich and the poor!

The rich rule the poor and wont let them stand up while beeing educated and self confident, not they are treated like little stupid children (what they are)

So how you want to creat a democratic country here in Thailand. No way!

This country needs a and demands a strong hand , ok lets say they need a strong leader who has in mind to change this country and the habit of the poeple on a long way and long run!

So whatever they are electing: it has no meaning for anything !!!!!!!!!!!

[zyphodb]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

Living here, & having travelled all over Thailand including Bangkok where the vast majority of these "educated" middle class Thais live, what percentage of the population would you say they are? I would hazard a guess at 5% & id say that was being optimistic.... I think its you that needs to get out more.....

[lostoday]

Living here, & having travelled all over Thailand including Bangkok where the vast majority of these "educated" middle class Thais live, what percentage of the population would you say they are? I would hazard a guess at 5% & id say that was being optimistic.... I think its you that needs to get out more.....

Steady economic growth since the 1960s has helped the Thai middle class of entrepreneurs, business people , professionals and white collar workers expand and become a significant slice of the Thai population. By some measures they have grown from 15 percent of the workforce in 1960 to 34 percent in 2000. If anything the pace has picked up in recent years. In 1990, only 9 percent of Thai households had a monthly income of 15,000 baht (about $500) or more. By 2004 this figure had risen 29 percent. [source: takashi Shiraishi, Yomiuri Shimbun, April 2006]

Household income or consumption by percentage share: lowest 10 percent: 2.8 percent; highest 10 percent: 31.5 percent (2009 est.) Distribution of family income - Gini index: 53.6 (2009); country comparison to the world: 12. 42 (2002). [source: CIA World Factbook]

The Thai middle class is concentrated mainly in Bangkok and other urban areas. About 60 percent were born in Bangkok, where they received a relatively high level of education. They have few connections with the relatively poorly-educated rural masses.

http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Thailand/sub5_8c/entry-3229.html

[Snig27]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

I think it is huge. Thailand is classed as a low level developed nation and this is part of that. Get in a car and drive out into the vast burbs of BKK that spread in every direction. Much of it is very middle class. Same in places like Chaing Mai.

[Snig27]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

Living here, & having travelled all over Thailand including Bangkok where the vast majority of these "educated" middle class Thais live, what percentage of the population would you say they are? I would hazard a guess at 5% & id say that was being optimistic.... I think its you that needs to get out more.....

So who exactly do you think is filling these countless suburban malls and making them viable? Who are buying these pricey consumer goods in vast quantities? Who is making Thailand an attractive place for multinational high end clothing chains? Who buys the cars in their millions? It ain't tourists and it ain't the uber rich in central BKK. Mega Bang-Na is one of the biggest malls on the planet and it's not a tourist destination. There are bigger ones planned in the 'burbs of Bangkok.

[Fat Haggis]

The snobbery cup overfloweth in this thread. Must be great to be able to look down on people all the time with constant remarks about poor people being too stupid to have a democracy, or how they don't deserve it.

What they really don't deserve is being constantly ridiculed by Hi So wannabes ?

[Srikcir]

Nidhi Eoseewong said, "After May 22, I came to accept that [the country] is not in a transition to democracy but perhaps one day it will be. We'll have to ask the National Council for Peace and Order [when that will happen]."

And the NCPO might answer the same way the military did during the 2010 protests against the coup-favored Abhisit government, "Over YOUR dead body."

[Srikcir]

Nidhi Eoseewong said, "After May 22, I came to accept that [the country] is not in a transition to democracy but perhaps one day it will be. We'll have to ask the National Council for Peace and Order [when that will happen]."

And the NCPO might answer the same way the military did during the 2010 protests against the coup-favored Abhisit government, "Over YOUR dead body."

[tbthailand]

The young political scientist said morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy

how ironic is that....

[Morakot]

The young political scientist said morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy

how ironic is that....

Whose morality and ethics?

To talk about morality and ethic utterly disconnected from discursive striving towards consensus is probably very dangerous.

[wabothai]

most Thais don't have the slightest idea what real democracies are about. How many political parties are there? A democracy never works where corruption seems to be as normal as eating rice.