Water pump for 3 story town house.

[Nickkbh]

Ok, i know this have been discussed a lot.

But here we go again.

I live in Town in Town, in a 3 story town house.

Groundfloor, 1st floor and 2nd floor.

I have a 1000 ltr watertank, and currently a Mitsubishi WP155Q3 Automatic water pump.

It is driving me nuts, and the pressure is never constant, the thing turns on and off every second, literally.

And it is not strong enough for the Bathroom on the 2nd floor.

Once and for all, what should i buy.

I have been advised to buy a Grundfoss constant pressure pump..

But any sound advice is much appreciated.

One more question.

I have a water heater, the normal type with on/off switch, temp.

But since this is for a Tub type, fitting, that can blend. I think i need one of those that just makes hot, and don't blend it.

Is that correct. Which one do you recommend.

Thanks in advance.

[nputman]

Your cycling is due to a leak in system.

Positive pressure pump and check the head rating for it.

[nputman]

Your cycling is due to a leak in system.

Positive pressure pump and check the head rating for it.

Your Mitz pump has a 12 meter head height which should be ok for your place.

I have a mitz 305 and have no problems with height volume or pressure.

Edited May 27, 2015 by nputman

[Pib]

Your pump has too low of a capacity, discharge head (height the pump can effectively push water too), and pressure for a 3 story house. You need at least a WP255 model. Whether it's a constant pressure pump or not is not the issue.

You WP155 has a discharge head of only 12M...and a pressure of 1.3 to 1.9 bar which really won't give a strong shower pressure even in a one story house. Sure going with a Grundfoss pump will give you a lot more pressure but it's a pricy pump.

See attached Mitsubishi chart for more info....once again I would recommend at least a WP255 since it has discharge head of 19M and pressure of 2.1-2.8 bar. Note at the WP205 model number and up you see very significant jump in discharge head, pressure, etc., over the lower model numbers like your WP155.

[Nickkbh]

Thanks, but wouldn't it be better with a constant pressure pump.

I want a lot more pressure.

There is no leak, the pump stops when i turn of the faucets.

[IMHO]

Thanks, but wouldn't it be better with a constant pressure pump.

I want a lot more pressure.

There is no leak, the pump stops when i turn of the faucets.

Again, I'm going to stand up for the Hitachi WM-P400GX inverter pump. max head=20M, 58L/min @ 12M, 62L/min at 0M. It doesn't pulse, dip, surge or cycle at all*

At around 14K Baht, it's not the cheapest, but I'm pretty sure it's cheaper than a Grundfos.

* Unless you program it to - I have no idea why you'd want to use that setting though

Edited May 27, 2015 by IMHO

[Pib]

Thanks, but wouldn't it be better with a constant pressure pump.

I want a lot more pressure.

There is no leak, the pump stops when i turn of the faucets.

Don't confuse pressure with volume (discharge capacity). Even constant pressure pumps like shown in above chart have pressure on and off points. Now while the pump is on it provides a constant pressure somewhere between the pump on and off points....like say on a constant pressure pump with a pressure switch on/off of 2.1/2.8 the pump maintains a constant pressure of say 2.5 bar. Now say you have a non-constant pressure pump with pressure switch on/off of 2.1/2.8 bar...as the pump cycles on and off you will have an "average" pressure of around 2.5 bar as the pressure varies from 2.1 to 2.8 bar.

And with properly operating "non-constant" pressure pump (e.g., not waterlogged, etc) which is not undersized (e.g., too small of a pump) for your residence you'll be hard pressed to notice any pressure variation in everyday home use since the variation is so gradual. The only way I can notice a pressure variation with my WP255 non-constant pressure pump is by playing with the water hose by setting the hose nozzle to shoot a jet stream, see how far that jet stream will reach as the pump cycles...it will vary by a foot or two based on the approx 20 feet its shooting out. The only time I definitely noticed a pressure variation in the 2nd story shower was when the pump was waterlogged and it was cycling like every second or so causing the water to "surge" out of the shower head....fixed the problem causing the waterlogging and then it was back to even water pressure.

If you want a lot more pressure...like more than 2.8 bar (40psi), then none of the pumps in above chart are for you...nor similar models from other manufacturers like Hitachi because they all only go up to around 2.8 bar unless you want to mess with the pressure switch to make it operate a little high "and out of its optimum operating pressure range." You'll need to go with a more pricey model that can be set to continuously operate at a higher pressure maybe like 4 bars/60psi.

Yea, don't confuse pressure and capacity/volume...two different animals. If you want high pressure go buy a pressure washer at HomePro that puts out around 100 bars/1400psi and somehow mount it in hour shower. But you'll be extremely unsatisfied with your shower as although it's operating at a high pressure the water volume is low....with the nozzle set to a wide fan spray it will feel more like a mist hitting your body...but just don't get your face within a few inches of the nozzle because that close it will start peeling off skin because the "combination" of water pressure and volume at that point in space will do some serious cleaning and/or damage.

[maoro2013]

I would also be possibly concerned that the plumbing in the builvelding can take adequate pressure to reach to thre floors with enough pressure.

I built a new house here which is about 2.5 floors, split level. The pressure is a bit weak on the top floor but have already had a couple of leaks internally. My place has blue pvc pipes, in hindsight I would have put in copper. Also it could possibly be teething problems, I have not had a leak for a year now.

[Mudcrab]

As said before you need a pump with a higher head capacity.

Look for something with a pump controller (or fit one later) instead of a pressure switch. You can buy them in Global House etc.

The pump controller is a combination of pressure switch and flow switch.

They start on pressure but will continue to run while there is any flow so you don't get the surging associated with a pressure switch controlled pump.

You can close off a tap for example and the pump continues to run. Don't worry about the pump running at a reduced capacity and possibly using more electricity as some urban myths would have us believe. Power consumption is directly related to pump load i.e.flow.

I've used them for many years after I got sick of pressure switches burning out.

[masuk]

To have constant pressure, you need a special kind of pump.

As suggested, your pump may have a leak or you need to drain water out of the tank so that air pressure can build up inside. One way to help things is to put a pressure tank in line between the pump and the house supply. This has a rubber diaphragm inside and stops the pump cutting on and off. All you need is a tee piece cut into the line and the tank fitted onto the tee piece.

Here's a video from Australia, and similar to what I fitted to my rain water tanks on the farm.

How nice to see real extension cables and three-pin plugs in use!

[ehs818]

I think you may have what I had, short cycling. It causes the pump to continuously turn on and off. The reason mine did that was because the pump was not primed properly. In order to do that you need to have valves to close on both sides of the pump, intake and output. Without those valves being closed you can't properly fill the taller black cylinder. That water just runs thru. Once you have the chamber filled, open those valvesup and turn the power back on. Should be set then!

[Nuddy]

My mate lived in a high rise apartment building in Ayutthaya.

He said the water supply above the 2nd floor was awful.

He talked to a guy a at a pump shop and they resolved the problem

They put reserve tanks on each floor with water level shut off valves in the tanks

He was on floor 4 so they put a pump at the bottom to the next level and a reserve tank there on the next level with the shut off valve

That was repeated on each floor level

so he would turn on his tap at floor four and each pump would replace the water at each level.

They were cheap pumps and small reserve tanks.

It worked great

Maybe it was expensive from an electrical point of view but his shower and water pressure worked very well.

[kamalabob2]

Nickkbh: You might spend the time to visit a better "pump shop" where the owner might speak and understand English. A pump that is recommended in Buriram Province for a three floor residential house is the Mitsubishi Super Pump. While Grundfos makes a strong line up of water pumps for sale in Thailand, ask the price for certain spare parts prior to selecting a brand. If you contact Mitsubishi water pumps they can inform you of the better dealer | installed | repair station in your area. Consider the Mitsubishi Super Pump in the top right of the photo.

[marios]

The pump cuts-in and out continuously. This means that the pressure switch turns on and off the pump. Water is not compressible and the pump discharge reaches cut-out setting as soon as the flow stops. When the fawcet is turned on a rapid drop in pressure ensues and the pressure switch turns the pump on.When the tap shuts rapid build-up of pressure shuts the pump down

Remedy: Introduce elasticity in the system by incorporating a pressure vessel at the pump outlet. This vessel consists of two chaambers separated by a membrane. On one side is nitrogen gas and the other side is the water.Nitrogen, being a gas is compressible. These c an be bought at any store selling pumps. In fact, the picture of a pump arrangement in a post above, depicts such a vessel. A final point, it is my advise, to use a centrifugal pump, which can operate with closed discharge. That is, in case the pressure switch fails to shut down if thwere is no flow, the head built up by the centrifugal pump will be manageable as opposed to a positive displacement pump which will maintain high pressure with zero flow resulting in possible damage In case such a vessel is incorporated the explanation of the on-off behaviour is that the separating membrane has ruptured..

Bottom line go to the pump store where you purchased the pump and ask advise about the pressure vessel. i live in a five storey block of flats and our arrangementt is that I had just described.

[boonchu]

Also need to be sure that you have a one way valve installed in the outlet pipe of the pump (the pipe going to the tank), I also found the Mitsubishi 350 the best and have now used it for a 4 story building for 5 years without a problem.

[Araiwa]

To have constant pressure, you need a special kind of pump.

As suggested, your pump may have a leak or you need to drain water out of the tank so that air pressure can build up inside. One way to help things is to put a pressure tank in line between the pump and the house supply. This has a rubber diaphragm inside and stops the pump cutting on and off. All you need is a tee piece cut into the line and the tank fitted onto the tee piece.

Here's a video from Australia, and similar to what I fitted to my rain water tanks on the farm.

How nice to see real extension cables and three-pin plugs in use!

Great video. Thanks for the link. Real extension cables and 3-pin plugs! A dream!

[IMHO]

To have constant pressure, you need a special kind of pump.

As suggested, your pump may have a leak or you need to drain water out of the tank so that air pressure can build up inside. One way to help things is to put a pressure tank in line between the pump and the house supply. This has a rubber diaphragm inside and stops the pump cutting on and off. All you need is a tee piece cut into the line and the tank fitted onto the tee piece.

Here's a video from Australia, and similar to what I fitted to my rain water tanks on the farm.

How nice to see real extension cables and three-pin plugs in use!

Great video. Thanks for the link. Real extension cables and 3-pin plugs! A dream!

"real" extension cables are available in Thailand... but you'll pay Western prices of course. In TH it makes much more sense to use Shucko versions rather than the AU/China type, as most garden and power tools here have Shucko plugs on them anyway..

http://th.rs-online.com/web/c/connectors/mains-iec-connectors-accessories/extension-reels/?applied-dimensions=4293736411&esid=cl_4294967294,cl_4294957914&m=1

http://th.rs-online.com/web/c/connectors/mains-iec-connectors-accessories/trailing-sockets-power-distribution/?applied-dimensions=4293736336,4293736411&esid=cl_4294967294,cl_4294957914&m=1

[billd766]

Does anybody know where I can buy a Grundfos pump in Thailand.

Mt Mitsubishi WP255 is getting to the stage that I can't fix it any more. It is close to 10 years old and is past its best before, its best that you do something quickly and is close to the giving up the ghost time.

[Pib]

The pump cuts-in and out continuously. This means that the pressure switch turns on and off the pump. Water is not compressible and the pump discharge reaches cut-out setting as soon as the flow stops. When the fawcet is turned on a rapid drop in pressure ensues and the pressure switch turns the pump on.When the tap shuts rapid build-up of pressure shuts the pump down

Remedy: Introduce elasticity in the system by incorporating a pressure vessel at the pump outlet. This vessel consists of two chaambers separated by a membrane. On one side is nitrogen gas and the other side is the water.Nitrogen, being a gas is compressible. These c an be bought at any store selling pumps. In fact, the picture of a pump arrangement in a post above, depicts such a vessel. A final point, it is my advise, to use a centrifugal pump, which can operate with closed discharge. That is, in case the pressure switch fails to shut down if thwere is no flow, the head built up by the centrifugal pump will be manageable as opposed to a positive displacement pump which will maintain high pressure with zero flow resulting in possible damage In case such a vessel is incorporated the explanation of the on-off behaviour is that the separating membrane has ruptured..

Bottom line go to the pump store where you purchased the pump and ask advise about the pressure vessel. i live in a five storey block of flats and our arrangementt is that I had just described.

Assuming your are referring to the OP's WP155 pump it has a pressure tank/vessel...the pump motor/manifold assembly sets on top of the pressure tank. It's not the bladder kind like you refer to which uses a membrane/bladder to keep the water separated from nitrogen...it has no bladder/membrane and does not use nitrogen. Instead just X-amount of air is maintained in the tank to act as the compressible agent/the energy storing spring. Since there is no bladder/membrane between the water and air, then the air would be naturally absorbed into the water after X-amount of time (a few days to a few weeks based on my experience with these type pumps) but these pumps also include an air balance control valve that injects a very small amount of air into the tank on each pump on-off cycle to offset/replace the air that gets naturally absorbed into the water due to no bladder/membrane. When the air in the tank is lost/leaks-out/not being replaced at the right amount by the air balance value, the tank will become waterlogged which can cause very rapid on-off cycling, with the pump being on the great majority of time even for a very small draw of water.

[longball53098]

Does anybody know where I can buy a Grundfos pump in Thailand.

Mt Mitsubishi WP255 is getting to the stage that I can't fix it any more. It is close to 10 years old and is past its best before, its best that you do something quickly and is close to the giving up the ghost time.

You can buy a Grundfos CMB pump at Hardware House. I believe I have seen them at HompePro also and Global House.

Go on line to Grundfos get the company number and call them. They have English speakers and can direct you to a dealer

[kamalabob2]

My wife had me make two trips today for Building Materials in Buriram for her nephew's small village house project. At 9am I noted four Mitsubishi Electric Automation Technical support team members teaching a class for six repair technicians and five water pump sales staff of Ruangsangthai. In the late afternoon at 5:15p.m. these same four men were at that water pump store finishing technical training. I showed them the OP question and said retail price of the pump was not the issue, but the best long term solution was the request. Mr. Phisit Tmaruka the Mitsubishi Electric Automation pump designer and Mr. Choedpong Deokul the Assistant Manager of Technical Support in Thailand were clear that the Mitsubishi iMCH 65VS or the Mitsubishi iMCH 100VS Inverter water pumps would provide constant pressure. These Mitsubishi water pump experts who spent all day in Buriram teaching repair and product knowledge, asked me how many bathrooms in the three level townhouse. They gave me a brochure which is similar to this water pump information sheet https://www.meath-co.com/web/es-mit/uploadfile/All%20Inverter%20pump%20catalog.pdf The owner of the Mitsubishi Inverter water pump can adjust the pressure up to five levels from 2.5 bar to 4 bar as it was explained to me. It seemed to me very simple to adjust the water pressure with either of these two Mitsubishi water pumps. Grundfos is a fine brand, but you might check into where the water pump would be serviced in your province and what spare parts cost for a Grundfos water pump vs a Mitsubishi water pump.

[Pib]

Those Mitsubishi super inverter pumps don't come cheap though.

[kamalabob2]

Yes I will agree with Pib that the posted price of the Mitsubishi inverter pumps are not cheap. Different dealers offer different prices in my observation. They both cost less than the posted price of a current iPhone so that is a choice people make. Unlike the iPhone I have not noticed water pump prices drop after 9 month.

iPhone 64.7-inch display

From ฿24,900

iPhone 6 Plus5.5-inch display

From ฿28,900

[billd766]

Does anybody know where I can buy a Grundfos pump in Thailand.

Mt Mitsubishi WP255 is getting to the stage that I can't fix it any more. It is close to 10 years old and is past its best before, its best that you do something quickly and is close to the giving up the ghost time.

You can buy a Grundfos CMB pump at Hardware House. I believe I have seen them at HompePro also and Global House.

Go on line to Grundfos get the company number and call them. They have English speakers and can direct you to a dealer

Thank you for the information. Global House up in Khampaeng Phet didn't have any the last time I went and the problem I have with them is that they have very staff of their own as the majority seem to be allied to just one product and know little about anybody elses.

There are many people working there but only about 10% speak English and whilst I can sort of get by in Thai, technical English goes over their heads and technical Thai goes over mine.