Call for 'reforms before elections' forces a detour in PM's road map

[rametindallas]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Do you care to link to some supporting information on the new charter or are you just making it up as you go along?

.

[smedly]

one thing I know for sure, there is a lot of money at stake and even on this so called Farang forum there are a lot of people with divisive interests, I have only one interest - my opinion and how I see things, in time if I am wrong I will be the first to point a finger, for now I wait............................................and I hope those that are/have stolen from the Thai people end up in jail for a very long time, remember this - if you are not running ..you should be, I believe Thailand has found a man who is willing to risk everything for the betterment of all Thai people ....... he can not be bought.........you will end up in jail

Heybruce what yah think

[rametindallas]

Seems to me that they are desperate to stop the red-shirts gaining power again, as they would if there were free and fair elections.

The ruling elite are desperate.

Time and history is not on their side.

stop the red-shirts gaining power again

When did the Red Shirts ever hold power? Try never!

The ruling elite are desperate.

The current "ruling elite" have it made-in-the-shade as long as they stay on the side of the army. Far from desperate, they are feeling very good about themselves (whether deserved or not).

Time and history is not on their side.

Time is on their side as Thaksin grows more senile by the day. His latest hallucinations, that he verbalized in an interview with S. Korean TV, clearly show his mental deterioration. He is obsessed with turning back the clock to a time when he still held power personally. Megalomaniac narcissist; not a good combination in a man who wants to control Thailand.

History is on the side of the Junta and its Bangkok elite because in the last 82 years, Juntas have been in power most of that time. Never in Thai history has a man like Thaksin been victorious.

So now that your post is exposed as mis-truths or propaganda, I have to ask myself, "Is this just a common troll seeking the pleasure of someone responding or, am I responding to a propagandist. So far, you are in the box marked, "propagandist".

Try writing something thoughtful, factual, and pertinent to the OP. Include some examples to back up your assertions, or links to sites where you get your information that forms your opinion. Don't be a troll, join in an intelligent discussion of todays issues. If you want to be a propagandist, you really need to do better than just make completely unsupported blanket statements. Again, include some links to others who think as you do; otherwise, you have no credibility. If you're going to be a propagandist, at least be a good one. Please don't bore me with the same old, same old.

.

.

[rametindallas]

What about no military should be able to take control of a Government or do you feel the Armed Forces off limits to any reforms?

Clearly you haven't read Thai history or you would know that's the way they do things in Thailand. You have a problem with that? Accept Thailand for what it and not what you think it ought to be because it will never be that.

.

[KarenBravo]

Seems to me that they are desperate to stop the red-shirts gaining power again, as they would if there were free and fair elections.

The ruling elite are desperate.

Time and history is not on their side.

stop the red-shirts gaining power again

When did the Red Shirts ever hold power? Try never!

The ruling elite are desperate.

The current "ruling elite" have it made-in-the-shade as long as they stay on the side of the army. Far from desperate, they are feeling very good about themselves (whether deserved or not).

Time and history is not on their side.

Time is on their side as Thaksin grows more senile by the day. His latest hallucinations, that he verbalized in an interview with S. Korean TV, clearly show his mental deterioration. He is obsessed with turning back the clock to a time when he still held power personally. Megalomaniac narcissist; not a good combination in a man who wants to control Thailand.

History is on the side of the Junta and its Bangkok elite because in the last 82 years, Juntas have been in power most of that time. Never in Thai history has a man like Thaksin been victorious.

So now that your post is exposed as mis-truths or propaganda, I have to ask myself, "Is this just a common troll seeking the pleasure of someone responding or, am I responding to a propagandist. So far, you are in the box marked, "propagandist".

Try writing something thoughtful, factual, and pertinent to the OP. Include some examples to back up your assertions, or links to sites where you get your information that forms your opinion. Don't be a troll, join in an intelligent discussion of todays issues. If you want to be a propagandist, you really need to do better than just make completely unsupported blanket statements. Again, include some links to others who think as you do; otherwise, you have no credibility. If you're going to be a propagandist, at least be a good one. Please don't bore me with the same old, same old.

.

.

Red-shirts, Thal Luk Thai, Phua Thai, call them what you will, so, they have been in power since Thaksin was first elected.

Ruling elite are so desperate that they had to topple an elected government with a coup and are now arranging a constitution that will keep those "red-shirts" from ever gaining power through the ballot box again.

History shows that eventually, countries have power snatched from "ruling classes" and ends up in the hands of the people. One definition of democracy.

Isn't this all rather self-evident, or are you just thick?

Edited June 12, 2015 by KarenBravo

[Bakseeda]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

Okay, so give all the Thai peoples a vote , and, What will they do..... Sell it to the highest bidder... Are you going to tell me that you believe Thai peoples who blatantly sell their very valuable vote, Are you going to tell me that those same peoples deserve a vote..? They have exactly what they deserve... A Military Junta... and luckily for them , what seems to be a caring one.... Lucky for us Farangs if we don't like it we can close the door behind us... But, as I see the countries infrastructure functioning better now than ever in my thirteen years of living in Thailand, I see happy peoples still working and still smiling, I see happy children still getting to school.... I see trains running, busses running, I see internal investment up and up... What I don't see are corrupt politicians with their noses deep in the trough of taxpayers moneys.... What did John Lennon say...."Give peace a chance"....... Stupid Farangs should keep their noses out of Thai business... and ...Give peace a chance...!! Pass a Chang please...

John Lennon liked a bit of Acid as well

If that's true, he will enjoy your sense of humour....

[Praematura]

This country is a lost cause. Feel a very slight sadness for those of you who bought property here.

[rayongchelsea]

This country is a lost cause. Feel a very slight sadness for those of you who bought property here.

Some of us have done quite well. Others bought as a home etc..look if I had listened to this type of drivel everytime there was a coup (since 1980's) i wouldn't be anywhere as successful as I have been. Do you feel sorry for people who have successful businesses...some people have prospered here..

I will accept one point 2010 red shirts Fiasco where I could hear shots from my balcony and see the burning down of an underpass as they retreated eastwards was a real shock and evidence that things have changed but a lost cause no....but I feel sadness for a once brilliant country that over the last 15 years has deteriorated remarkably..it will however prosper. Bangkok is now a world city..

[rametindallas]

Seems to me that they are desperate to stop the red-shirts gaining power again, as they would if there were free and fair elections.

The ruling elite are desperate.

Time and history is not on their side.

stop the red-shirts gaining power again

When did the Red Shirts ever hold power? Try never!

The ruling elite are desperate.

The current "ruling elite" have it made-in-the-shade as long as they stay on the side of the army. Far from desperate, they are feeling very good about themselves (whether deserved or not).

Time and history is not on their side.

Time is on their side as Thaksin grows more senile by the day. His latest hallucinations, that he verbalized in an interview with S. Korean TV, clearly show his mental deterioration. He is obsessed with turning back the clock to a time when he still held power personally. Megalomaniac narcissist; not a good combination in a man who wants to control Thailand.

History is on the side of the Junta and its Bangkok elite because in the last 82 years, Juntas have been in power most of that time. Never in Thai history has a man like Thaksin been victorious.

So now that your post is exposed as mis-truths or propaganda, I have to ask myself, "Is this just a common troll seeking the pleasure of someone responding or, am I responding to a propagandist. So far, you are in the box marked, "propagandist".

Try writing something thoughtful, factual, and pertinent to the OP. Include some examples to back up your assertions, or links to sites where you get your information that forms your opinion. Don't be a troll, join in an intelligent discussion of todays issues. If you want to be a propagandist, you really need to do better than just make completely unsupported blanket statements. Again, include some links to others who think as you do; otherwise, you have no credibility. If you're going to be a propagandist, at least be a good one. Please don't bore me with the same old, same old.

.

.

Red-shirts, Thal Luk Thai, Phua Thai, call them what you will, so, they have been in power since Thaksin was first elected.

Ruling elite are so desperate that they had to topple an elected government with a coup and are now arranging a constitution that will keep those "red-shirts" from ever gaining power through the ballot box again.

History shows that eventually, countries have power snatched from "ruling classes" and ends up in the hands of the people. One definition of democracy.

Isn't this all rather self-evident, or are you just thick?

Red-shirts, Thal Luk Thai, Phua Thai, call them what you will, so, they have been in power since Thaksin was first elected.

You have to be truly delusional to believe a win for Thaksin meant power to the Red Shirts/UDD. How many Red Shirts got into his cabinets? He used them to enhance HIS power; they didn't use Thaksin to advance their power. You are confusing the Shepard for the sheep.

Ruling elite are so desperate that they had to topple an elected government with a coup

the 'ruling elite' at the time of both coups was Yingluck or Thaksin and their cohorts

...are now arranging a constitution that will keep those "red-shirts" from ever gaining power through the ballot box again.

You can't know that as the final version is not settled yet. Please feel free to quote some of the sections you believe "will keep those "red-shirts" from ever gaining power through the ballot box again."

History shows that eventually, countries have power snatched from "ruling classes" and ends up in the hands of the people. One definition of democracy.

That's exactly what Prayut has done, snatched to power from the ruling Shinawatra cartel and reforming government to put back in the hands of the people; the very definition of democracy

Isn't this all rather self-evident, or are you just thick?

No, I guess I'm just thick but I can see that it is self-evident to you. That's why in my last post to you I suggested you post some links to back up your mouth. If you just keep repeating the same old Robert Amsterdam talking points you're going to bore everyone. Now, if you want to link to some of your Red Shirt web sites, we can understand your point of view better.

.

[KarenBravo]

When I say red-shirts, I mean Pua Thai, or, whatever you want to call them.

When I talk about "the ruling elite", I'm talking about that part of society that has run this country behind the scenes for decades. Most live in Bangkok.

The military did not snach power from the ruling class. They snatched power for them. The party that was in power at the time had it's power base in the north and north-east of the country.

I'm talking about World history, not just Thai history.

Yes, your stupidity is very self evident.

[Fat Haggis]

1 million taking to the streets and that's being conservative does NOT equate to the Thai people, it equates to less than 3% of the VOTING population.

Since when has 3% become a majority?

[rubl]

Seems to me that they are desperate to stop the red-shirts gaining power again, as they would if there were free and fair elections.

The ruling elite are desperate.

Time and history is not on their side.

stop the red-shirts gaining power again

When did the Red Shirts ever hold power? Try never!

The ruling elite are desperate.

The current "ruling elite" have it made-in-the-shade as long as they stay on the side of the army. Far from desperate, they are feeling very good about themselves (whether deserved or not).

Time and history is not on their side.

Time is on their side as Thaksin grows more senile by the day. His latest hallucinations, that he verbalized in an interview with S. Korean TV, clearly show his mental deterioration. He is obsessed with turning back the clock to a time when he still held power personally. Megalomaniac narcissist; not a good combination in a man who wants to control Thailand.

History is on the side of the Junta and its Bangkok elite because in the last 82 years, Juntas have been in power most of that time. Never in Thai history has a man like Thaksin been victorious.

So now that your post is exposed as mis-truths or propaganda, I have to ask myself, "Is this just a common troll seeking the pleasure of someone responding or, am I responding to a propagandist. So far, you are in the box marked, "propagandist".

Try writing something thoughtful, factual, and pertinent to the OP. Include some examples to back up your assertions, or links to sites where you get your information that forms your opinion. Don't be a troll, join in an intelligent discussion of todays issues. If you want to be a propagandist, you really need to do better than just make completely unsupported blanket statements. Again, include some links to others who think as you do; otherwise, you have no credibility. If you're going to be a propagandist, at least be a good one. Please don't bore me with the same old, same old.

.

.

Red-shirts, Thal Luk Thai, Phua Thai, call them what you will, so, they have been in power since Thaksin was first elected.

Ruling elite are so desperate that they had to topple an elected government with a coup and are now arranging a constitution that will keep those "red-shirts" from ever gaining power through the ballot box again.

History shows that eventually, countries have power snatched from "ruling classes" and ends up in the hands of the people. One definition of democracy.

Isn't this all rather self-evident, or are you just thick?

they have been in power since Thaksin was first elected"

Sound very democratic. Explains the mandate mantra and the 'we can do what we want' attitude. Clearly reforms are needed.

BTW what about Thaksin. It would seem one is only allowed to mention his name when it's convenient to some, but absolutely forbidden when one dares to suggest something even marginally negative.

[KarenBravo]

I am no Thaksin fan.

In fact, the sooner Phua Thai disengage from the Thaksin clan and stand on their own two feet, the better.

It's in their interests to do so. If they ditch the connection with Thaksin, poor people from all over Thailand will join them. The reason that these voters haven't already, is their loathing of Thaksin.

Thaksin was the first major politician to realise that in a one vote for one man democracy, a peasant's vote was worth the same as a hi-so's vote.

He also knew that the population of the north and north-east outnumbered the rest of the country.

He also knew that to gain these votes, all he had to do was throw a few crumbs to these people.

These few crumbs were more than what the previous Thai governments had given the north and north-east.

What he unwittingly did, was wake up a sleeping giant which gained political awareness and realised that their acquiescence could not be taken for granted any more.

The toothpaste has been squeezed out of the tube and the army and their backers are trying to shove it back in again.

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power via elections, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

Edited June 13, 2015 by KarenBravo

[baboon]

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

Nah, shag all that for a lark. Let's just get the army to stage a coup...

[smedly]

I am no Thaksin fan.

In fact, the sooner Phua Thai disengage from the Thaksin clan and stand on their own two feet, the better.

It's in their interests to do so. If they ditch the connection with Thaksin, poor people from all over Thailand will join them. The reason that they haven't already, is their loathing of Thaksin.

Thaksin was the first major politician to realise that in a one vote for one man democracy, a peasant's vote was worth the same as a hi-so's vote.

He also knew that the population of the north and north-east outnumbered the rest of the country.

He also knew that to gain these votes, all he had to do was throw a few crumbs to these people.

These few crumbs were more than what the previous Thai governments had given the north and north-east.

What he unwittingly did, was wake up a sleeping giant which gained political awareness and realised that their acquiescence could not be taken for granted any more.

The toothpaste has been squeezed out of the tube and the army and their backers are trying to shove it back in again.

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

although a very well written post there is one huge flaw - PTP UDD Thaksin are all one and the same - there is no way to separate them, and at the very root of all of it, is - Greed - Power - and Money, none of the players in this dirty game are poor except for the grunts at the bottom that do the real dirty work for a few thousand baht - what they think they get out of it is power but in reality they are just being used, there are local mafias that get to operate unimpeded - concessions for carparks - national parks - taxi operations etc etc all entrenched right to the top of the power base - we are redshit don't (deleted) with us

[rubl]

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

Nah, shag all that for a lark. Let's just get the army to stage a coup...

That might indeed be easier than to get either the Democrat party OR the Pheu Thai party to improve along the lines Karen suggests.

[heybruce]

You favor a corrupt military government over a corrupt elected government and accuse me of hypocrisy for favoring the reverse. Are there any depths to which you won't sink?

As I've stated many times before, voters can change a corrupt system by demanding change of elected officials. It doesn't happen quickly, but that's the only way I know that has allowed other countries to get corruption under control.

How do you propose ending a corrupt military government that is under the leadership of generals who did very well using the corrupt system?

a corrupt military government

what evidence/examples do you have that the current government is corrupt

Are there any depths to which you won't sink?

taking it to a personal level again - discuss the post not the poster

voters can change a corrupt system by demanding change of elected officials

yes they can but rarely does it happen, this country is so entrenched in corruption that a few rule the roost via various scams mafias organisations all backed by key officials and police - until now

incidentally - last year in Thailand the people rose up on the streets of Bangkok because they had had enough of corruption, they were then systematically slaughtered while the police stood by and did nothing under instruction of the PTP governemnt

that's the only way I know that has allowed other countries to get corruption under control

really ? and these countries are ?

How do you propose ending a corrupt military government

according to you, I have yet to see anything to complain about - I hope they get to stay in office as long as it takes to cleanse this country and put all the twisted cheats in jail and seize all the stolen money and assets and give it back to the people

who are you anyway ?

Evidence of corruption, and Prayuth's refusal to investigate: http://thediplomat.com/2014/10/thai-junta-beset-by-corruption-scandals/

Evidence that corruption is institutionalized in the military and has become a key skill for career advance, from "Foreign Policy":

"...Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

phoenixdoglover in post #57 addressed the democracy vs corruption point. Countries in Central and South America that have emerged from military rule and adopted democratic government have been slowly improving in the Transparency International Corruption Perception Index. Progress is slow, but it is progress. Can you give examples of uncorrupt military governments?

Suthep and his minions weren't protesting against corruption, they were protesting against elections and demanding the elected government step down so unspecified people could implement unspecified reforms.

You conclude that this corrupt military junta should stay in power to "cleanse" the country. Who are you anyway?

[heybruce]

one thing I know for sure, there is a lot of money at stake and even on this so called Farang forum there are a lot of people with divisive interests, I have only one interest - my opinion and how I see things, in time if I am wrong I will be the first to point a finger, for now I wait............................................and I hope those that are/have stolen from the Thai people end up in jail for a very long time, remember this - if you are not running ..you should be, I believe Thailand has found a man who is willing to risk everything for the betterment of all Thai people ....... he can not be bought.........you will end up in jail

Heybruce what yah think

From "Foreign Policy":

"...Prayuth soon became a prominent member of the Eastern Tigers, a royalist military faction based in eastern Thailand. In the 1990s, Chambers said, the Eastern Tigers amassed considerable wealth by trading gems with Cambodian Khmer Rouge insurgents based along the two countries’ border, a racket which “directly benefited” the faction and some of its commanders. Within a decade, the Eastern Tigers dominated the Thai military."

I think you are supporting a man from an endemically corrupt military, the leader of an army faction that rose to the top using wealth generated by illegal trade with the genocidal Khmer Rouge. I think that in order to keep his faction in charge that corruption will continue, but more of proceeds will be directed to Prayuth and his cronies. I think that if the military is left in charge that they will take Thailand down the same hole that Burma spent twenty years in under military rule.

[heybruce]

The majority of the Senate is to be elected by unelected appointees. They will be no more elected than Prayuth is. The watchdog agencies, also unelected, are to be strengthened, at the expense of elected government. It's a big step away from democracy, hence an undemocratic charter.

If you remember correctly? I can understand not keeping count of 25 coalition governments in 22 years, but surely you must remember that the turnover of these weak coalition governments was too high to accomplish much. That was the reason for the 1997 constitution, to have a stronger elected government. Unfortunately the minority in Bangkok decided they didn't approve of how the majority of the country voted.

Regarding the sorry state of Thailand, I agree it's a pity there is an endemically corrupt military in charge and in no hurry to leave. Strangely enough, some people seem to like it that way.

You seem to forget the endemic corrupt democratically elected governments. Now that's somewhat hypocritical.

Seems time to get on with reforms. Just electing another corrupt bunch won't do much good.

You favor a corrupt military government over a corrupt elected government and accuse me of hypocrisy for favoring the reverse. Are there any depths to which you won't sink?

As I've stated many times before, voters can change a corrupt system by demanding change of elected officials. It doesn't happen quickly, but that's the only way I know that has allowed other countries to get corruption under control.

How do you propose ending a corrupt military government that is under the leadership of generals who did very well using

the corrupt system?

Oh come on Heybruce, I know you don't like Arrmy Generals. Maybe only Police Generals?

So, you tell me I favour a corrupt military government over a corrupt elected government and therefore I sink low? Because you tell me so? Nice in a topic of a military government cracking down on corruption a bit more clearly than the previous elected government which 'took special care' of corruption. Of cause they were not really democratic with a criminal fugitive running the show. Old chap must be getting impatient what with many defenders of the faith suddenly emerging.

BTW do you accuse the PM of having done very well in a corrupt system? The PM who is working on curbing and cracking down on corruption to the point people get nervous?

A PM who's army faction rose to the top by raking in more corruption proceeds than the other army factions. A PM who won't investigate clear signs of corruption in the military, including a money transfer from an army account to his brother's account. A junta that claimed there was no army involvement in people smuggling a few weeks before an army LtGen Manas was charged as the ringleader of a major trafficking ring.

Is this the PM you think so highly of? Do you really think he's going to clean up Thailand?

[tbthailand]

The 30 bhat program has proven it's value.

More should be done to extend and improve it. https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/app.6.1.91

This paper analyzes Thailand's 2001 healthcare reform, "30 Baht." The program increased funding available to hospitals to care for the poor and reduced copays to 30 Baht (~$0.75). Our estimates suggest the supply-side funding of the program increased healthcare utilization, especially among the poor. Moreover, we find significant impacts on infant mortality. Prior to 30 Baht, poorer provinces had significantly higher infant mortality rates than richer provinces. After 30 Baht, this correlation evaporates to zero. The results suggest that increased access to healthcare among the poor can significantly reduce their infant mortality rates.

I agree that Thailand needs some sort of health system - but the bottom line is - who is going to pay for it, it is clear that the country cannot afford it as things are, perhaps if all the money thieved - wasted on stupid election bribes for votes - first car schemes etc etc then just maybe there might be a few billion left in the money pot to support a health scheme.

The Thai people have got to realise that there are limits and also they need to realise just how much money is being thieved through corruption, the guy that is telling them how to vote - check his bank balance and then where he got it from

a functional healthcare system and paying for it is good for the country in many ways. and it is not the net-expense that it might seem like.

paying for a good healthcare system has been shown to reduce overall costs and save money, in other words, how can the country not afford to pay for it is a better question.

other aspects include the need to educate and develop more healthcare professionals and related fields. This means an investment in the education infrastructure that pays back the country and the people many times over.

that's just the tip of the iceberg on the benefits of "paying" for it. There are many projects on the table now that are over-priced, vanity projects that benefit individual businesses and business sectors, but are little more than money-pits with respect to the Thai people. Bullet trains come to mind.

Absolutely! Certainly as American you know the advantage of a good Healthcare System.

Interesting is that in many European countries the Healthcare system is becoming unaffordable with the life expectancy haven risen. In The Netherlands the legal pension age is rising from 65 years now to 67 years 3 months in five years time. That to be able to pay for both pensions and the Healthcare System.

Anyway, vanity projects like high-speed tracks to ChiangMai because of the many poor commuters who want to go to Bangkok and get a Ms. Yingluck lunchbox are dropped. Speed reduced and priority to dual track links which can be used for both cargo and people.

Mind you, a proper infrastructure to connect the NorthEast with the Seaside will surely help to stimulate businesses to invest in the NorthEast. The money flow will then help to pay for healthcare and education.

America doesn't have a healthcare system, it has a medical insurance company "system".

Rising costs of pensions and healthcare related to an aging population can be seen from 50 years out. If the Europeans have not planned adequately for an aging population, that is the fault of many generations of governments, isn't it?

And if it is, curious that the solution is to put the burden on the backs of those needing care and pensions. Assuming your information is accurate.

[rubl]

You seem to forget the endemic corrupt democratically elected governments. Now that's somewhat hypocritical.

Seems time to get on with reforms. Just electing another corrupt bunch won't do much good.

You favor a corrupt military government over a corrupt elected government and accuse me of hypocrisy for favoring the reverse. Are there any depths to which you won't sink?

As I've stated many times before, voters can change a corrupt system by demanding change of elected officials. It doesn't happen quickly, but that's the only way I know that has allowed other countries to get corruption under control.

How do you propose ending a corrupt military government that is under the leadership of generals who did very well using

the corrupt system?

Oh come on Heybruce, I know you don't like Arrmy Generals. Maybe only Police Generals?

So, you tell me I favour a corrupt military government over a corrupt elected government and therefore I sink low? Because you tell me so? Nice in a topic of a military government cracking down on corruption a bit more clearly than the previous elected government which 'took special care' of corruption. Of cause they were not really democratic with a criminal fugitive running the show. Old chap must be getting impatient what with many defenders of the faith suddenly emerging.

BTW do you accuse the PM of having done very well in a corrupt system? The PM who is working on curbing and cracking down on corruption to the point people get nervous?

A PM who's army faction rose to the top by raking in more corruption proceeds than the other army factions. A PM who won't investigate clear signs of corruption in the military, including a money transfer from an army account to his brother's account. A junta that claimed there was no army involvement in people smuggling a few weeks before an army LtGen Manas was charged as the ringleader of a major trafficking ring.

Is this the PM you think so highly of? Do you really think he's going to clean up Thailand?

Do I really?

"an army LtGen Manas was charged as the ringleader of a major trafficking ring."

[rubl]

a functional healthcare system and paying for it is good for the country in many ways. and it is not the net-expense that it might seem like.

paying for a good healthcare system has been shown to reduce overall costs and save money, in other words, how can the country not afford to pay for it is a better question.

other aspects include the need to educate and develop more healthcare professionals and related fields. This means an investment in the education infrastructure that pays back the country and the people many times over.

that's just the tip of the iceberg on the benefits of "paying" for it. There are many projects on the table now that are over-priced, vanity projects that benefit individual businesses and business sectors, but are little more than money-pits with respect to the Thai people. Bullet trains come to mind.

Absolutely! Certainly as American you know the advantage of a good Healthcare System.

Interesting is that in many European countries the Healthcare system is becoming unaffordable with the life expectancy haven risen. In The Netherlands the legal pension age is rising from 65 years now to 67 years 3 months in five years time. That to be able to pay for both pensions and the Healthcare System.

Anyway, vanity projects like high-speed tracks to ChiangMai because of the many poor commuters who want to go to Bangkok and get a Ms. Yingluck lunchbox are dropped. Speed reduced and priority to dual track links which can be used for both cargo and people.

Mind you, a proper infrastructure to connect the NorthEast with the Seaside will surely help to stimulate businesses to invest in the NorthEast. The money flow will then help to pay for healthcare and education.

America doesn't have a healthcare system, it has a medical insurance company "system".

Rising costs of pensions and healthcare related to an aging population can be seen from 50 years out. If the Europeans have not planned adequately for an aging population, that is the fault of many generations of governments, isn't it?

And if it is, curious that the solution is to put the burden on the backs of those needing care and pensions. Assuming your information is accurate.

No healthcare system? Maybe Thaksin can help.

As for 'fault of government' well they do plan to cover rising costs. Moving pension age up is part of that. Furthermore the government pays for 'healthcare' from taxes and people pay with taxes and insurances. Insurances tend to offer "own risk" portions which allow people lower premiums, but higher own risk. The burden is on the back of everyone, including the needy. Even unemployment benefits and social security allowances are taxed. Would I be better of in the States if I were needing care and a pension?

[lostoday]

Who are they kidding. The new "Charter" is a blatant attempt at a power grab by the elite whereby key positions wouldn't be directly elected by the people.

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

"A proportional voting system would encourage smaller parties and coalition governments in the lower house of parliament, while the upper house would be filled with a mix of candidates nominated by committee or selected by professional groups, including one dominated by former military figures. Under certain circumstances, the prime minister could be appointed from outside parliament. Watchdog agencies perceived to be tied to the establishment would get new powers. Thus, unelected elites could mind the store, rather than ordinary voters -- thought to be too susceptible to populist blandishments." http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Of course you already knew that, didn't you?

I knew about the 'perceived'. I also know about 'proportional representation', The Netherlands uses that, like about 95 other countries. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation ).

So, what 'key positions' ?

So in the Netherlands they would pee on them if they were on fire?

Edited June 13, 2015 by lostoday

[rametindallas]

I am no Thaksin fan.

In fact, the sooner Phua Thai disengage from the Thaksin clan and stand on their own two feet, the better.

It's in their interests to do so. If they ditch the connection with Thaksin, poor people from all over Thailand will join them. The reason that these voters haven't already, is their loathing of Thaksin.

Thaksin was the first major politician to realise that in a one vote for one man democracy, a peasant's vote was worth the same as a hi-so's vote.

He also knew that the population of the north and north-east outnumbered the rest of the country.

He also knew that to gain these votes, all he had to do was throw a few crumbs to these people.

These few crumbs were more than what the previous Thai governments had given the north and north-east.

What he unwittingly did, was wake up a sleeping giant which gained political awareness and realised that their acquiescence could not be taken for granted any more.

The toothpaste has been squeezed out of the tube and the army and their backers are trying to shove it back in again.

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power via elections, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

When I have more time, I will educate you on the methods Thaksin employed to gain so much personal power.

Please understand that the Puea Thai Party is 100% created and owned by the Shinawatra Clan and when you speak of either, you speak of both. The UDD which supports Thaksin/PTP is made up of grass-roots Northern and Isaan people; only their leadership (many 'ex'-communists) is hand-picked and paid for by Thaksin. The UDD is not a democratic organization; they do not get to vote for their leadership.

I wish the Northerners and Isaan people had the kind of financial backing it takes to form and maintain their own independent political party. Right now, Thaksin is paying the fiddler so he gets to call the tunes. Newin Chidchob has proved his independence from Thaksin, has built several profitable businesses (without any apparent graft), is from the NE, and is a charismatic and (mostly) ethical leader but he doesn't have the money to create a nation-wide coalition. Until the non-elite of the North and Isaan can untangle themselves from being pawns of the Shinawatra Mafia Syndicate, they will get only lip-service from PTP. If they become a power in their own right, other parties will have to negotiate with them. That wasn't the case under TRT, PPP, PTP, or the Democrats. If the NCPO can greatly reduce the power/influence of the Thaksin Syndicate and the local Mafia Chiefs, maybe the intimidation of those non-elite/non-Thaksin candidates from the N and NE will lessen and it may allow local leadership to evolve so that the rural people can move past the feudal system they've been living under since forever to representational governance. Thaksin did not dismantle the feudal system, he bought off the leadership and strengthened it (Million Baht Village Fund controlled by the village head). Rural Thai, those who live in the mu baan, have no concept of the freedom that citizens from the West take for granted and their definition of democracy is highly colored (red).

In the US during the 1960s, so-called 'freedom riders' invaded the US South to inform blacks that they had rights and could influence their government to be more responsive to them. Some of those brave souls were killed (see the movie, "Mississippi Burning") but today, people of color have the political voices of their own with many aldermen, councilors, mayors, and governors coming form their ranks. Isaan and the North have been under the thumb of powerful 'Families' for generations and their vote and opportunities to hear opposing views are tightly controlled. Since Thaksin was the last to buy the 'Families' off, Thaksin is who they've hitched their wagon to and the voice of the people who live under this system can never be heard. If you want reform in Thailand you are going to have to attack and win against an entrenched mafia with tentacles and connections no one has an idea of it reach. The civilian/political mafia have made accommodation with the police mafia. Prayut really wants to get rid of that whole system because Thaksin's Mafia Civil War has cost the country too much already.

Once you understand the structure of Thai society, you can understand how the people have always been controlled by a 'big man'.

BTW, the Democrats will always be a second place party until they get rid of all the old 'mustache petes' from any kind of leadership positions. But they can't do that because those Mafia Dons control all the votes in their fiefdoms. Don't expect much from the Democrats. The PTP will be dissolved soon and its member banned for five years because of their ill-fated attempt to illegally change the constitution: 307 for: 4 abstentions, 0 against was the vote count; just as 'The Paymaster' ordered. If the Democrats, themselves, don't get dissolved, they will have a large base to form a coalition government but they will never dominate the way Thaksin's parties have. I think that is a good thing because Thaksin was attempting to turn Thailand into a Republic and making himself President-for-Life, just like his very good friend in Cambodia, 'The Thug', Hun Sen, has done, and he had the rubber stamp Parliament to implement it. If only he hadn't let the PAD's protest influence him to dissolve Parliament (Dec. 2005), he would still be PM today or maybe 'President Thaksin'. If you like the sound of 'President Thaksin', you probably won't be happy with any reforms in the new Charter or Prayut going after criminal top civil servants (firing whole lists of offenders), top corrupt police (head of CIB), top corrupt mafia/politicians (Nakhon Pathom) as these interfere with the way Thaksin's Mafia Syndicate is set up.

If you care about the Thai people that Thaksin is supposed to represent, forget about defending Thaksin and focus on the challenges of having a real democracy withing the UDD.

.

.

Edited June 13, 2015 by rametindallas

[rubl]

'blatant' attempt?

Anyway, what 'key positions' are you talking about? Anything to do with a referendum or a detour in the PM's roadmap?

"A proportional voting system would encourage smaller parties and coalition governments in the lower house of parliament, while the upper house would be filled with a mix of candidates nominated by committee or selected by professional groups, including one dominated by former military figures. Under certain circumstances, the prime minister could be appointed from outside parliament. Watchdog agencies perceived to be tied to the establishment would get new powers. Thus, unelected elites could mind the store, rather than ordinary voters -- thought to be too susceptible to populist blandishments." http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-04-20/thailand-needs-elected-leaders-not-a-new-constitution

Of course you already knew that, didn't you?

I knew about the 'perceived'. I also know about 'proportional representation', The Netherlands uses that, like about 95 other countries. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation ).

So, what 'key positions' ?

So in the Netherlands they would pee on them if they were on fire?

Not sure who the 'they' are, but in the Netherlands one might pee to put out a fire when it's indoors only. Urinating outdoors in public is against the law.

[KarenBravo]

When I have more time, I will educate you on the methods Thaksin employed to gain so much personal pow

Please, please don't bother.

[smedly]

I am no Thaksin fan.

In fact, the sooner Phua Thai disengage from the Thaksin clan and stand on their own two feet, the better.

It's in their interests to do so. If they ditch the connection with Thaksin, poor people from all over Thailand will join them. The reason that these voters haven't already, is their loathing of Thaksin.

Thaksin was the first major politician to realise that in a one vote for one man democracy, a peasant's vote was worth the same as a hi-so's vote.

He also knew that the population of the north and north-east outnumbered the rest of the country.

He also knew that to gain these votes, all he had to do was throw a few crumbs to these people.

These few crumbs were more than what the previous Thai governments had given the north and north-east.

What he unwittingly did, was wake up a sleeping giant which gained political awareness and realised that their acquiescence could not be taken for granted any more.

The toothpaste has been squeezed out of the tube and the army and their backers are trying to shove it back in again.

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power via elections, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

When I have more time, I will educate you on the methods Thaksin employed to gain so much personal power.

Please understand that the Puea Thai Party is 100% created and owned by the Shinawatra Clan and when you speak of either, you speak of both. The UDD which supports Thaksin/PTP is made up of grass-roots Northern and Isaan people; only their leadership (many 'ex'-communists) is hand-picked and paid for by Thaksin. The UDD is not a democratic organization; they do not get to vote for their leadership.

I wish the Northerners and Isaan people had the kind of financial backing it takes to form and maintain their own independent political party. Right now, Thaksin is paying the fiddler so he gets to call the tunes. Newin Chidchob has proved his independence from Thaksin, has built several profitable businesses (without any apparent graft), is from the NE, and is a charismatic and (mostly) ethical leader but he doesn't have the money to create a nation-wide coalition. Until the non-elite of the North and Isaan can untangle themselves from being pawns of the Shinawatra Mafia Syndicate, they will get only lip-service from PTP. If they become a power in their own right, other parties will have to negotiate with them. That wasn't the case under TRT, PPP, PTP, or the Democrats. If the NCPO can greatly reduce the power/influence of the Thaksin Syndicate and the local Mafia Chiefs, maybe the intimidation of those non-elite/non-Thaksin candidates from the N and NE will lessen and it may allow local leadership to evolve so that the rural people can move past the feudal system they've been living under since forever to representational governance. Thaksin did not dismantle the feudal system, he bought off the leadership and strengthened it (Million Baht Village Fund controlled by the village head). Rural Thai, those who live in the mu baan, have no concept of the freedom that citizens from the West take for granted and their definition of democracy is highly colored (red).

In the US during the 1960s, so-called 'freedom riders' invaded the US South to inform blacks that they had rights and could influence their government to be more responsive to them. Some of those brave souls were killed (see the movie, "Mississippi Burning") but today, people of color have the political voices of their own with many aldermen, councilors, mayors, and governors coming form their ranks. Isaan and the North have been under the thumb of powerful 'Families' for generations and their vote and opportunities to hear opposing views are tightly controlled. Since Thaksin was the last to buy the 'Families' off, Thaksin is who they've hitched their wagon to and the voice of the people who live under this system can never be heard. If you want reform in Thailand you are going to have to attack and win against an entrenched mafia with tentacles and connections no one has an idea of it reach. The civilian/political mafia have made accommodation with the police mafia. Prayut really wants to get rid of that whole system because Thaksin's Mafia Civil War has cost the country too much already.

Once you understand the structure of Thai society, you can understand how the people have always been controlled by a 'big man'.

BTW, the Democrats will always be a second place party until they get rid of all the old 'mustache petes' from any kind of leadership positions. But they can't do that because those Mafia Dons control all the votes in their fiefdoms. Don't expect much from the Democrats. The PTP will be dissolved soon and its member banned for five years because of their ill-fated attempt to illegally change the constitution: 307 for: 4 abstentions, 0 against was the vote count; just as 'The Paymaster' ordered. If the Democrats, themselves, don't get dissolved, they will have a large base to form a coalition government but they will never dominate the way Thaksin's parties have. I think that is a good thing because Thaksin was attempting to turn Thailand into a Republic and making himself President-for-Life, just like his very good friend in Cambodia, 'The Thug', Hun Sen, has done, and he had the rubber stamp Parliament to implement it. If only he hadn't let the PAD's protest influence him to dissolve Parliament (Dec. 2005), he would still be PM today or maybe 'President Thaksin'. If you like the sound of 'President Thaksin', you probably won't be happy with any reforms in the new Charter or Prayut going after criminal top civil servants (firing whole lists of offenders), top corrupt police (head of CIB), top corrupt mafia/politicians (Nakhon Pathom) as these interfere with the way Thaksin's Mafia Syndicate is set up.

If you care about the Thai people that Thaksin is supposed to represent, forget about defending Thaksin and focus on the challenges of having a real democracy withing the UDD.

.

.

probably one of the most informative articulate and accurate posts I have ever read on this forum, you sir area a master

[rametindallas]

I am no Thaksin fan.

In fact, the sooner Phua Thai disengage from the Thaksin clan and stand on their own two feet, the better.

It's in their interests to do so. If they ditch the connection with Thaksin, poor people from all over Thailand will join them. The reason that these voters haven't already, is their loathing of Thaksin.

Thaksin was the first major politician to realise that in a one vote for one man democracy, a peasant's vote was worth the same as a hi-so's vote.

He also knew that the population of the north and north-east outnumbered the rest of the country.

He also knew that to gain these votes, all he had to do was throw a few crumbs to these people.

These few crumbs were more than what the previous Thai governments had given the north and north-east.

What he unwittingly did, was wake up a sleeping giant which gained political awareness and realised that their acquiescence could not be taken for granted any more.

The toothpaste has been squeezed out of the tube and the army and their backers are trying to shove it back in again.

If the Democrats ever want to get back into power via elections, instead of rigging the political process in their favour, they need to become a truly national party with policies that all the people in Thailand can relate to.

They need to come up with policies that will develop the most undeveloped parts of this country. To listen and act on the aspirations of the poor instead of just being a sock-puppet for the ruling elite and their henchmen.

When I have more time, I will educate you on the methods Thaksin employed to gain so much personal power.

Please understand that the Puea Thai Party is 100% created and owned by the Shinawatra Clan and when you speak of either, you speak of both. The UDD which supports Thaksin/PTP is made up of grass-roots Northern and Isaan people; only their leadership (many 'ex'-communists) is hand-picked and paid for by Thaksin. The UDD is not a democratic organization; they do not get to vote for their leadership.

I wish the Northerners and Isaan people had the kind of financial backing it takes to form and maintain their own independent political party. Right now, Thaksin is paying the fiddler so he gets to call the tunes. Newin Chidchob has proved his independence from Thaksin, has built several profitable businesses (without any apparent graft), is from the NE, and is a charismatic and (mostly) ethical leader but he doesn't have the money to create a nation-wide coalition. Until the non-elite of the North and Isaan can untangle themselves from being pawns of the Shinawatra Mafia Syndicate, they will get only lip-service from PTP. If they become a power in their own right, other parties will have to negotiate with them. That wasn't the case under TRT, PPP, PTP, or the Democrats. If the NCPO can greatly reduce the power/influence of the Thaksin Syndicate and the local Mafia Chiefs, maybe the intimidation of those non-elite/non-Thaksin candidates from the N and NE will lessen and it may allow local leadership to evolve so that the rural people can move past the feudal system they've been living under since forever to representational governance. Thaksin did not dismantle the feudal system, he bought off the leadership and strengthened it (Million Baht Village Fund controlled by the village head). Rural Thai, those who live in the mu baan, have no concept of the freedom that citizens from the West take for granted and their definition of democracy is highly colored (red).

In the US during the 1960s, so-called 'freedom riders' invaded the US South to inform blacks that they had rights and could influence their government to be more responsive to them. Some of those brave souls were killed (see the movie, "Mississippi Burning") but today, people of color have the political voices of their own with many aldermen, councilors, mayors, and governors coming form their ranks. Isaan and the North have been under the thumb of powerful 'Families' for generations and their vote and opportunities to hear opposing views are tightly controlled. Since Thaksin was the last to buy the 'Families' off, Thaksin is who they've hitched their wagon to and the voice of the people who live under this system can never be heard. If you want reform in Thailand you are going to have to attack and win against an entrenched mafia with tentacles and connections no one has an idea of it reach. The civilian/political mafia have made accommodation with the police mafia. Prayut really wants to get rid of that whole system because Thaksin's Mafia Civil War has cost the country too much already.

Once you understand the structure of Thai society, you can understand how the people have always been controlled by a 'big man'.

BTW, the Democrats will always be a second place party until they get rid of all the old 'mustache petes' from any kind of leadership positions. But they can't do that because those Mafia Dons control all the votes in their fiefdoms. Don't expect much from the Democrats. The PTP will be dissolved soon and its member banned for five years because of their ill-fated attempt to illegally change the constitution: 307 for: 4 abstentions, 0 against was the vote count; just as 'The Paymaster' ordered. If the Democrats, themselves, don't get dissolved, they will have a large base to form a coalition government but they will never dominate the way Thaksin's parties have. I think that is a good thing because Thaksin was attempting to turn Thailand into a Republic and making himself President-for-Life, just like his very good friend in Cambodia, 'The Thug', Hun Sen, has done, and he had the rubber stamp Parliament to implement it. If only he hadn't let the PAD's protest influence him to dissolve Parliament (Dec. 2005), he would still be PM today or maybe 'President Thaksin'. If you like the sound of 'President Thaksin', you probably won't be happy with any reforms in the new Charter or Prayut going after criminal top civil servants (firing whole lists of offenders), top corrupt police (head of CIB), top corrupt mafia/politicians (Nakhon Pathom) as these interfere with the way Thaksin's Mafia Syndicate is set up.

If you care about the Thai people that Thaksin is supposed to represent, forget about defending Thaksin and focus on the challenges of having a real democracy withing the UDD.

.

.

probably one of the most informative articulate and accurate posts I have ever read on this forum, you sir area a master

Thank you. My first wife is Isaan and all my better friends for my first five years in Thailand, are from Isaan. Isaan people remind me of Louisiana Cajuns. Good hearted, open people who maintain their own unique culture, music, and language. Thailand should be proud of its Isaan people and culture. Tourism should be encouraged because it is the Real Deal of Thailand. I wish for the Isaan people to be more self-governed and less dependent on Bangkok for jobs and hand-outs. The development of dual track, standard gauge, fast freight trains from Nong Khai to Thailand's largest seaport along with a nice tax incentive, will see lots of companies relocating to Isaan; creating the kind of local opportunity so that the young women won't have to whore in Bangkok to support the family.

.

[lostoday]

probably one of the most informative articulate and accurate posts I have ever read on this forum, you sir area a master

If the topic of the thread was Thaksin, the bad guy, is a danger to Thailand because Thai people are too stupid to know who to vote for.

Thaksin is history this thread is about current events - get a clue.

[smedly]

probably one of the most informative articulate and accurate posts I have ever read on this forum, you sir area a master

If the topic of the thread was Thaksin, the bad guy, is a danger to Thailand because Thai people are too stupid to know who to vote for.

Thaksin is history this thread is about current events - get a clue.

from one extreme to the other