Greece, creditors dig in their heels on eve of meeting

[webfact]

Greece, creditors dig in their heels on eve of meeting
DEREK GATOPOULOS, Associated Press
RAF CASERT, Associated Press

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Greece and its creditors publicly blamed one another for an impasse in bailout talks Wednesday, on the eve of a eurozone finance ministers' meeting billed as key to their outcome.

Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras lashed at rescue lenders for demanding pension cuts, and got support from thousands of Greeks who hit the streets in Athens to protest against any further austerity measures.

"If Europe insists in this incomprehensible option — if its political leadership insists — then they must bear the cost of developments that will not be beneficial for anyone in Europe," he said after meeting in Athens with Austrian Chancellor Werner Faymann.

Greek Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis was defiant ahead of Thursday's meeting of finance chiefs from the eurozone. Asked during a visit to Paris on Wednesday whether the meeting could produce an agreement, Varoufakis said, "I do not believe so," and criticized the group for not making enough "preparations" to solve Greece's "incapacitating debt crisis."

Greece needs to get more loans from its creditors before June 30, when its bailout program expires and it is scheduled to make a 1.6 billion euro ($1.8 billion) debt repayment to the International Monetary Fund.

European Union officials said they have already made major concessions, dropping a budget surplus target from 3 percent to 1 percent this year.

Athens still needed to come up with a more realistic plan, EU Commission Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis said.

"It is important that the Greek side actually not only communicates what they do not want to do, but also what they do want to do," he said.

Markets continued to react badly to the news on the talks. The Athens Stock Exchange's main index sank another 3.2 percent, while the yield on Greece's two-year bond has soared above 30 percent, a sign investors are more worried about a default.

Also Wednesday, Greece's central bank issued a dramatic warning in its annual report that, without a deal, the country would face "deep recession (and) a dramatic decline in income levels" that would drive it from the euro bloc and even the EU.

Dombrovskis conceded the EU would consider "less favorable scenarios" when asked about a possible Greek exit, or "Grexit."

Berenberg analyst Holger Schmieding said the Grexit risk has increased from 30 to 40 percent.

"With every semi-deadline that Greece misses and with every rude word that the Greek radicals hurl at their creditors, the damage already done to Greece gets worse," he said in a note. "That, in turn, makes it more difficult for lenders to negotiate and ratify a new deal."

However, White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the U.S. administration remains confident that the situation can be resolved because it is "clearly in the interests of everybody sitting around that negotiating table."

"It is possible, if they work collaboratively, essentially to lay the groundwork for a sustainable economic recovery in Greece while also implementing critically important fiscal reforms," he said.

Late Wednesday, some 7,000 people took part in a peaceful anti-austerity protest outside Parliament in central Athens, attended by senior members of the governing Syriza party. A smaller rally was held in the northern Greek city of Thessaloniki.

Economists disagree over how bad a Grexit would be for the rest of Europe. Many say the region's defenses against market turmoil have improved in recent years, while others note that nobody really knows what the impact might be — and that uncertainty can be dangerous.

Lenders want Greece to further cut defense spending and massive pension fund subsidies, and raise more money in sales taxes.

Jeroen Dijsselbloem, president of eurozone finance meetings, described the chances of a breakthrough on Thursday as "very small."

Tsipras' five-month-old left-wing government wants new terms for its bailout program after previous administrations imposed draconian spending cuts and tax increases for five years.

Those austerity measures helped reduce the public deficit but ravaged the economy and made most Greeks poorer.

An advisory committee set up in parliament by members of the government said Wednesday it had recommended the non-payment of any remaining bailout debt, describing it as "illegal, illegitimate, and odious."
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Bank of Greece statement: http://goo.gl/rvavvD
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Casert reported from Brussels. Nicholas Paphitis in Athens, Lorne Cook in Brussels, Jim Kuhnhenn in Washington, Mike Corder in The Hague, Netherlands, and Alex Turnbull in Paris also contributed.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-06-18

[ezzra]

With 300-500 million dollars being withdrawn daily from banks by worried depositors,

how long before Greece will be bankrupt? and yet, the still want to keep their days

of wine, songs, siesta and working very little going on for ever,

with huge unemployment, despair and hopelessness every where how long will they last?

somehow, Greece assume that the world owe it some kind or debt of gratitude

for just being Greece, and that the EU will not let it fold, time will tell......

[Credo]

A departure of Greece from the Euro, and possibly the EU, can only act to strengthen both. I don't know that in the long run Greece won't end up stronger as a result.

Sometimes with a petulant child, you have to help them pack their bags so they can run away.

Once they are set adrift in the Mediterranean like the other economic migrants, they may start viewing the world in a different light.

[trogers]

The Spartan 300 all over again?

[freebyrd]

The Greek PM and his Finance Minister both look and beahav like theirs doesn't stink. Where I come from, if you borrow money, from a bank for instance, you pay it back with interest - simple fact. Expecting the likes of the German taxpayer to bail them out and then ask for a chunk of it to just be written off is at best naive in the extreme.

[Credo]

So, I take it that the plan for war reparations from Germany didn't work out so well?

[little mary sunshine]

Freeloading freaken Greeks...full retirement at 50!!!! Work until your

67 like they have to in TheStates.... Cut back on all the welfare and

Pay your own bills!!!

[Lukecan]

Mr Tsiparas please dont cut the pension of costas, we need him here on TV!

[sanuk711]

Lenders want Greece to further cut defense spending---OP

Would that mean there would be less dresses & shoes to go around....................

[hocuspocus]

With 300-500 million dollars being withdrawn daily from banks by worried depositors,

how long before Greece will be bankrupt? and yet, the still want to keep their days

of wine, songs, siesta and working very little going on for ever,

with huge unemployment, despair and hopelessness every where how long will they last?

somehow, Greece assume that the world owe it some kind or debt of gratitude

for just being Greece, and that the EU will not let it fold, time will tell......

And how many billions does it need to borrow before the end of June so that it can pay the 1.6 Billion Euros. It makes sense not to carry on with this fiasco.

[Lukecan]

Freeloading freaken Greeks...full retirement at 50!!!! Work until your

67 like they have to in TheStates.... Cut back on all the welfare and

Pay your own bills!!!

They copied it from the Turks. It was full retirement at 38 for females, and 42 for males in Turkey until 10 years ago. They changed the law, now its 55.

[micmichd]

So, does Big Money still want to force Greece to spend their money for arms instead of pensions?

Does Big Money still want to force Greece to raise taxes, ie reduce net income?

Does Big Money still threaten Greece to seize her islands if they don't get back their credits?

Which part of the Greek population did actually make profits from these credits?

If Big Money wants hostages:

Why not take the Greek billionaire clans (Onassis, Niarchos & Co) and seize their property?

And don't forget their heiresses in third countries...

Edited June 18, 2015 by micmichd

[HenryB]

These so call big bankers know nothing. Why would think the Greeks will pay back a loan. It is the same with the banks in America lending students money to go to college.

Both are bad loans from the start

Edited June 18, 2015 by HenryB

[micmichd]

Those big bankers are supposed by law to know everything. They simply don't care because they know in case of a crash they get their fees & interests etc anyway.

The magic phrase is "too big to fail", meaning they can blackmail governments because governments are their debtors, too.

[BuaBS]

Maybe they should start selling Crete & Rhodos. That could bring a couple of billions. Nice islands for the Russian or Chinese.

[Anon999]

A departure of Greece from the Euro, and possibly the EU, can only act to strengthen both. I don't know that in the long run Greece won't end up stronger as a result.

Sometimes with a petulant child, you have to help them pack their bags so they can run away.

Once they are set adrift in the Mediterranean like the other economic migrants, they may start viewing the world in a different light.

The departure of Greece from the Euro and the EU will encourage, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Cyprus to follow the same route.

As far as strengthening it is concerned that would require a total rethink and reorganisation, with the elimination of the Strasburg parliament, (a sop to the French) the submission of accounts to auditors going back to year one and massive reduction in endemic corruption. If they could survive an auditors report that would be as good as a Houdini act.

Can't somehow see the Euro surviving and the EU only as a trading block as was the idea sold to the UK amongst others at the time of their referendum.

[micmichd]

Unfortunately I don't know where BuaBSland is, but you would certainly be happy if you come home and find the Russians or Chinese took it over.

[soumanioco]

Greece used to owe 236 billion USD to private banks. From that amount 188 billion was owed to European private banks.

While under supervision, memorandums and the like, and after managing the loans given to Greece at that time, the debt of 188 billion is now down to 38 billion USD.

THat doesn't mean Greece owes less money. It means that the debt has now moved from the private banks to the EU countries and the European Stability Mechanism and Rescue programs -meaning the EU tax payers.

So, all the loans that were supposed to save Greece, actually saved the French, German, British and Dutch private banks.

[BuaBS]

Unfortunately I don't know where BuaBSland is, but you would certainly be happy if you come home and find the Russians or Chinese took it over.

It's only 2 islands , not the whole of Greece. Islanders not happy with new "owners" , can be bought out and move to other parts of Greece.

[Basil B]

On the BBC yesterday a travel adviser was saying Greece would be great for a holiday this summer, Yes, holidays may be cheap but soon there will be shortages of all sorts of things and some Greeks are going to be very hostile to other Europeans.

[micmichd]

Unfortunately I don't know where BuaBSland is, but you would certainly be happy if you come home and find the Russians or Chinese took it over.

It's only 2 islands , not the whole of Greece. Islanders not happy with new "owners" , can be bought out and move to other parts of Greece.

No.

Crete is the biggest Greek island.

There are natural resources around these islands, the rights to dig could better be sold to the Russians eg. The Russians in return should have a strong interest to defend this territory against occupations (in whatever form they come)

Greece should get out of NATO, too, if IMF and EU keep on threatening them.

And, of course, Germany should pay compensation or reparation for their damages in WW2. Maybe Greece could charge up.

[micmichd]

A departure of Greece from the Euro, and possibly the EU, can only act to strengthen both. I don't know that in the long run Greece won't end up stronger as a result.

Sometimes with a petulant child, you have to help them pack their bags so they can run away.

Once they are set adrift in the Mediterranean like the other economic migrants, they may start viewing the world in a different light.

The departure of Greece from the Euro and the EU will encourage, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Cyprus to follow the same route.

As far as strengthening it is concerned that would require a total rethink and reorganisation, with the elimination of the Strasburg parliament, (a sop to the French) the submission of accounts to auditors going back to year one and massive reduction in endemic corruption. If they could survive an auditors report that would be as good as a Houdini act.

Can't somehow see the Euro surviving and the EU only as a trading block as was the idea sold to the UK amongst others at the time of their referendum.

Not so sure if development is reversible.

Rolling it all back would mean free trade within Europe, and free access to the labour market for Europeans, but no access to welfare.

Wouldn't that mean all foreigners had to pay taxes (maybe contributions to the Social Security System) but never a chance to get anything out of it?

[Basil B]

The End is Nigh...

Well I predict the end of this Greek farce to be only hours away.

I can see no way that Greece will even meet the EU half way on the terms and conditions for any bail out, and the EU certainly will not give Greece another two years as per the latest Greek request.

Greece is bankrupt.

I predict a statement that Greece will not get a bail out and the Grexit is in progress as soon as the European Stock markets have closed tomorrow night.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Basil B

[freebyrd]

Mr Tsiparas please dont cut the pension of costas, we need him here on TV!

Interesting comment, Costas seems to have been unusually silent of late. He usually comments on just about everything, but I've seen nothing for a while now?

[stevenl]

With 300-500 million dollars being withdrawn daily from banks by worried depositors,

how long before Greece will be bankrupt? and yet, the still want to keep their days

of wine, songs, siesta and working very little going on for ever,

with huge unemployment, despair and hopelessness every where how long will they last?

somehow, Greece assume that the world owe it some kind or debt of gratitude

for just being Greece, and that the EU will not let it fold, time will tell......

Yesterday even 1 billion Euro's withdrawn from Greek banks.

[micmichd]

If all Greeks withdraw their Euros from banks, then the banks will become bancrupt.

Edited June 18, 2015 by micmichd

[F430murci]

If all Greeks withdraw their Euros from banks, then the banks will become bancrupt. The whole European bank system might crash in a bank run.

And where did you come up with this nugget of information or forecast? Big deposits left for the most part long ago. Central bank of Greece may fail, but who cares. It has technically already failed. Kind of stupid for EU or IMF to infuse money solely so that can money, albeit with substantial discounts, can then be used to repay loans to IMF. Be cheaper to let them fail and sustain the losses at a dollar for dollar ratio.

[samuibeachcomber]

Off to see Putin now.

[micmichd]

Good idea.

Bye, Greek islands. Bye, Greek oil and gas.

Thanks, EU, for the moratorium.

Edited June 18, 2015 by micmichd

[Ulic]

Spending other peoples money like drunken sailors on shore leave and then complaining about having to pay some of it back and insisting on more so they can get the party restarted. Some have the nerve.