Confederate flag sets off debate in 2016 Republican class

[Publicus]

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/FLAG/confederateflag.htm

As good a description as I have seen so far.

Are you trying to provoke Publicus into a seizure or something?

It's OK. He probably won't even read it and if he did he'd write it off

as a lie from the "far right wing" something or other.

I don't accuse posters of lying.

Don't accuse me of it thx.

I talk about wingnuts and the lunar fringe and the like, not of liars.

[Guest]

Bye.
You talk about hate while fomenting hate. You lose the argument then blame the winners. This isn't about the NRA, tea party, or your political agenda.

Dude, Of course you see this as win and lose, not a conversation ... that is why I give up.

I did not lose to the NRA and haters ... 9 people in Church lost.

And I have not read one posting that honors that fact.

So just keep singing to the choir of rednecks and nut jobs.

The rest of us are tired of it .. if wearing people out with stupid, repetitive, non factual rhetoric is "winning"

You got it man .. Gold medal for you.

And no .. i am not getting sucked into this troll game .. it is a waste of time ...

"Bye"

[sdanielmcev]

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/FLAG/confederateflag.htm

As good a description as I have seen so far.

Are you trying to provoke Publicus into a seizure or something?

It's OK. He probably won't even read it and if he did he'd write it off

as a lie from the "far right wing" something or other.

I don't accuse posters of lying.

Don't accuse me of it thx.

I talk about wingnuts and the lunar fringe and the like, not of liars.

Try to stay on topic. The Great Society, and its' re-education process about the Civil War being about slavery is failure. South Carolina has every right to keep that flag flying high.

[sdanielmcev]

Bye.

You talk about hate while fomenting hate. You lose the argument then blame the winners. This isn't about the NRA, tea party, or your political agenda.

Dude, Of course you see this as win and lose, not a conversation ... that is why I give up.

I did not lose to the NRA and haters ... 9 people in Church lost.

And I have not read one posting that honors that fact.

So just keep singing to the choir of rednecks and nut jobs.

The rest of us are tired of it .. if wearing people out with stupid, repetitive, non factual rhetoric is "winning"

You got it man .. Gold medal for you.

And no .. i am not getting sucked into this troll game .. it is a waste of time ...

"Bye"

Because this is about a flag. Not a shooting. And calling me a redneck and nutjob is against forum rules.

[Publicus]

There are two levels of a flag ban.

The official level ... no U.S. government entity at ANY level (from federal down to small town) should be allowed to display that flag in any way.

That seems a no brainer.

The second level ... banning the public from using it for private expression, that's something else. I don't think that can even be realistically done in the U.S. even if you wanted to.

I think you're forgetting states rights as there is a Constitutional restraint on the federal government. Nowhere in the Constitution does the federal government have the power to regulate state flags.

Remember that the Constitution is against the federal government, limiting its powers against the states and against individuals. That's what the Bill of Rights in particular hammered home in both broad and definitive ways.The Bill of Rights ends with this amendment (article).

"Article the twelfth... The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Tenth Amendment is not quite the monument the conservatives would like it to be...

The Tenth Amendment does not impose any specific limitations on the authority of the federal government; though there had been an attempt to do so, Congress defeated a motion to modify the word delegated with expressly in the amendment. It thus does not grant states additional powers, nor does it alter the relationship that exists between the federal government and the states. It merely indicates that the states may establish and maintain their own laws and policies so long as they do not conflict with the authority of the federal government.

http://www.britannica.com/topic/Tenth-Amendment

So I suppose, to include consideration of the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution, if the Feds wanted to enact a law saying only the national standard flag --the Stars & Stripes -- can be flown over or on state buildings and grounds, there wouldn't be much a state could do about it, except to secede. But then we'd have to go burn the South again.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Publicus

[Publicus]

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/FLAG/confederateflag.htm

As good a description as I have seen so far.

Are you trying to provoke Publicus into a seizure or something?

It's OK. He probably won't even read it and if he did he'd write it off

as a lie from the "far right wing" something or other.

I don't accuse posters of lying.

Don't accuse me of it thx.

I talk about wingnuts and the lunar fringe and the like, not of liars.

Try to stay on topic. The Great Society, and its' re-education process about the Civil War being about slavery is failure. South Carolina has every right to keep that flag flying high.

Only the right wants to mark the history of African-Americans as beginning with the Great Society and President Lyndon Johnson, when in fact slavery existed for 300 years well before LBJ and its legacy continues to this day another hundred years after its abolition to include LBJ.

The right wing seems to have picked up its "education" from Bob Jones University if not Liberty University where the world is something like 6000 years old.

[thailien8]

Born into Yankee land, I was brought up to believe that Lincoln was a hero for saving the Union and freeing the slaves.

50 years on, with further education, I wish that Lincoln had just let the Confederacy go ahead and secede from the Union, as they wanted to do. That would have saved America from its worst disaster, the Civil War.

Had Lincoln been less warlike, America today would be two nations, and my Yankee land would be free of the likes of Mitch McConnell.

The USA today is too big to survive. The North-South divide is still tearing this nation apart. Smaller countries are better. No more USSR.

IMHO, Lincoln was the worst president. His tragic war kept the North and South "united" tho they are still at each others' throats today.

[Publicus]

Born into Yankee land, I was brought up to believe that Lincoln was a hero for saving the Union and freeing the slaves.

50 years on, with further education, I wish that Lincoln had just let the Confederacy go ahead and secede from the Union, as they wanted to do. That would have saved America from its worst disaster, the Civil War.

Had Lincoln been less warlike, America today would be two nations, and my Yankee land would be free of the likes of Mitch McConnell.

The USA today is too big to survive. The North-South divide is still tearing this nation apart. Smaller countries are better. No more USSR.

IMHO, Lincoln was the worst president. His tragic war kept the North and South "united" tho they are still at each others' throats today.

Agree for sure on the point about Mitch McConnell and I would add the likes of Strom Thurmond, Jesse Helms, George Wallace et al.

However, were it not for President Abraham Lincoln you'd be sitting there in Nazi knickers with embroidered swastika or wandering in a wasteland of a Nazi-USSR post-apocalypse world.

Growing up in the NE we liked to use the word nimrod to say someone was dim then in adulthood I moved to Atlanta where I found out Nimrod is an actual male first name. I met a lotta Nimrods in the South but I still remembered the nimrods from back up North.

If btw you think the United States is too big, you'd pass out on arrival in China...Russia....Brazil....India

[neeray]

Mass shooting tragedy. Debate flags.

I love America, I really do.

But on this, their sense of priority is warped due to being fearful of the NRA. It ain't oppressive government you fellas news worrying about it seems.

What on earth does the "NRA" have to do with the "Confederate flag?" There is a small group of haters on Thai Visa, at every opportunity display distain for the NRA; America; American police; Tea Party; Fox News; and guns. I suspect most of these individuals lead boring and miserable lives.

The Confederate flag is merely a symbol of southern pride. Romney must have bumped his head, siding with Obama on anything. Of all things to concern yourself with, the Confederate flag should be at the bottom of the list.

I fit your stated profile but my life is not "boring or miserable".

But I do agree, "Romney must have bumped his head". I doubt that he enjoys the taste of crow much.

[NeverSure]

If btw you think the United States is too big, you'd pass out on arrival in China...Russia....Brazil....India

Since you're an expert on all things, everything, we should add to your list of expert subjects that the US land mass is greater than either China, Brazil, or India. It's 3x as big as India. Link

Back on topic, your opinion of the OP is also totally scrkewed.

Edited June 21, 2015 by NeverSure

[sdanielmcev]

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/FLAG/confederateflag.htm
As good a description as I have seen so far.

Are you trying to provoke Publicus into a seizure or something?

It's OK. He probably won't even read it and if he did he'd write it off
as a lie from the "far right wing" something or other.

I don't accuse posters of lying.

Don't accuse me of it thx.

I talk about wingnuts and the lunar fringe and the like, not of liars.

Try to stay on topic. The Great Society, and its' re-education process about the Civil War being about slavery is failure. South Carolina has every right to keep that flag flying high.

Only the right wants to mark the history of African-Americans as beginning with the Great Society and President Lyndon Johnson, when in fact slavery existed for 300 years well before LBJ and its legacy continues to this day another hundred years after its abolition to include LBJ.

The right wing seems to have picked up its "education" from Bob Jones University if not Liberty University where the world is something like 6000 years old.

Nope. You're entitled to your opinion, not the facts.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been removed. This thread is getting a little contentious. Please exercise care in your remarks to other members. I don't know that this topic is worth a suspension.

If you are done posting your opinion, then it might be wise to stop posting. There is a lot of unnecessary bickering going on and this often results in problems for posters.

[starky]

Banning the flag won't solve much. Disturbed people like Roof would have done crazy things even if he did not have a flag on hand.

Roof is on suicide watch, but he won't last long any way - Bubba's already licking his lips

Oh unless of course "Bubba" is a redneck white supremacist. Im sure the Aryan Brotherhood would love to sign him up

[MaxYakov]

[MZurf]

I wouldn't be too sure about Roof's action not starting something big. In the atmosphere of recent unrest about cop racism, this event could prompt a black on white incident....and so on.

Exponential dominoes:

https://youtu.be/y97rBdSYbkg

Some of you would like that. Misery loves company comes to mind, but we will be alright. Life is good here and will be good. There are enough smart people i control and a new president will help.

Yep, all hail President Hillary Clinton. First a black guy and then a woman. Man, will that twist the tits of the good ol' boys!!!

[puck2]

If Americans want to become fixated on a symbol of suffering, there's one that symbolizes a million times more human and environmental suffering* than the Confederate flag: The crucifix. Perhaps if the flag could kill vampires, then it would be ok to see it waving everywhere.

*If anyone is wondering how the crucifix can symbolize a lot of 'environmental suffering,' consider that a basic tenent of Christianity is to make as many babies as possible, and each new person contributes to environmental destruction.

I forgot to mention, this small group of haters on Thai Visa hates God as well. Thanks for reminding me. Personally, I would give a little more thought to the idea that the crucifix is a symbol of hatred. However, if you want to live in darkness it is up to you.

The Confederate flag has nothing to do with vampires or environmental destruction.

There are some "highly intelligent" right-wing US-TV members not beeing able to make a difference between hate and criticize. The same with the so called "US-bashers".

I wait for the day when god believers walk over the water.

Edited June 22, 2015 by puck2

[MaxYakov]

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/FLAG/confederateflag.htm

As good a description as I have seen so far.

Are you trying to provoke Publicus into a seizure or something?

It's OK. He probably won't even read it and if he did he'd write it off

as a lie from the "far right wing" something or other.

I don't accuse posters of lying.

Don't accuse me of it thx.

I talk about wingnuts and the lunar fringe and the like, not of liars.

I didn't say that you accused posters of lying. Read my statement again for comprehension or maybe I failed to make it clear enough for you?

Hint: I said you would write "it" off as a lie, referring to neither the poster nor the post.

"I talk about wingnuts and the lunar fringe and the like, not of liars." <deleted silly emoticon>

Give us a break, already!

Edited June 22, 2015 by MaxYakov

[chinx888]

รายงานผลบอลสด กระชับ ฉับไว ได้ที่นี่ ผลบอลเมื่อคืน

[Pakboong]

One thing "else" it represents is the freedom of expression/speech.

Which has higher precedence or importance w/r freedom and the slippery-slope downwards?

There are some deceased fanatics who felt similarly about images of you-know-who.

PS: Following your logic should we also ban Civil War battle re-enactments or, perhaps, have them performed only within museums?

If these candidates had any real understanding and/or intestinal fortitude, that's what their statements would be (put more diplomatically, perhaps).

Certain emblems need to be restricted because they incite or provoke nastiness or offense.

Go join your communist/socialist/Sharia/junta or whatever they are buddies and enjoy.

Freedom of speech and freedom of expression means the freedom to be offensive or you wouldn't need the freedom. Freedom means free. End of.

I think it was important to quote me properly, so that your remarks would show that you think it's OK to fly a swastika across the road from a synagogue.

As for your "sharia buddies" comment...water off a duck's back, however I hope the mods take a serious note of who it is that casts pejoratives around.

We don't seem to have a problem with the Rising Sun flying high over the Japanese Embassy.

[arunsakda]

A ridiculous anachronism that should have been packed away to museums years ago. Even Rick Perry admitted it stands for racism, but added "it stands for who we are". Unbelievable.

[Publicus]

If btw you think the United States is too big, you'd pass out on arrival in China...Russia....Brazil....India

Since you're an expert on all things, everything, we should add to your list of expert subjects that the US land mass is greater than either China, Brazil, or India. It's 3x as big as India. Link

Back on topic, your opinion of the OP is also totally scrkewed.

All the same my friend the countries I named in comparative terms are big countries.

Without trying to get off over the horizon of the thread and topic, I'd note almost all countries that have experienced civil wars in Europe (eastern Europe especially), Africa, Asia continue to kill each other in bloodbaths. I think of Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia in Europe, too many to name in Africa; the long civil war in China produced a miserable dictatorship that has morphed into 21st century fascism to include Tiananmen Square in 1989.

Post civil war violence in the USA has been violent internally within the South in the laws, police, courts, elected officials and the like, to include the informally sanctioned KKK, but violence between the Union and the Confederacy did cease. The KKK is quite out of fashion in recent times and has been co-opted into the electoral process besides and not successfully overall.

No 'respectable' white southern racist would pronounce his racism openly, choosing instead to cloak himself in the mantras of the old canards of states' rights, state sovereignty blah blah blurp blurp.

[Berkshire]

Many flags have flown over state capitol and cities...Mobile, AL has had six flags...Pensacola, FL five flags...both of which have flow the Confederate Flag as part of history...not as a symbol of hate or slavery or any other sinister message...

What if a group decided they no longer wanted the British, French or Spanish Flag flown because of some beef they have with those countries...

Let's not try to rewrite history...leave the flags out their for all to see how America once was, and has evolve into what it now is...

There are people in the world who see the American flag as a symbol of tyranny...and despise its presence...

Hmmm, so the Germans should be flying flags of the Nazi Third Reich in downtown Berlin because it's a "part of history"....? C'mon.

Regardless of what the Confederate Flag is "supposed" to mean, mainstream America now recognizes it to be synonymous with racial hatred and intolerance. The true, hardcore racists have hi-jacked it for years to use it as one of their most recognizable symbols. It's really no different than the Nazi swastika which, by no coincidence, is also used by hardcore racists to symbolize their beliefs.

Even Republicans know this, but because of the crazy politics in America, many are afraid to come out and alienate the looney far right (read their base). I'd like to think that these presidential candidates are just a bunch of cowards, but hey, it's just politics. Wink, wink. That's how stupid politics in America has gotten.

[chuckd]

Many flags have flown over state capitol and cities...Mobile, AL has had six flags...Pensacola, FL five flags...both of which have flow the Confederate Flag as part of history...not as a symbol of hate or slavery or any other sinister message...

What if a group decided they no longer wanted the British, French or Spanish Flag flown because of some beef they have with those countries...

Let's not try to rewrite history...leave the flags out their for all to see how America once was, and has evolve into what it now is...

There are people in the world who see the American flag as a symbol of tyranny...and despise its presence...

Hmmm, so the Germans should be flying flags of the Nazi Third Reich in downtown Berlin because it's a "part of history"....? C'mon.

Regardless of what the Confederate Flag is "supposed" to mean, mainstream America now recognizes it to be synonymous with racial hatred and intolerance. The true, hardcore racists have hi-jacked it for years to use it as one of their most recognizable symbols. It's really no different than the Nazi swastika which, by no coincidence, is also used by hardcore racists to symbolize their beliefs.

Even Republicans know this, but because of the crazy politics in America, many are afraid to come out and alienate the looney far right (read their base). I'd like to think that these presidential candidates are just a bunch of cowards, but hey, it's just politics. Wink, wink. That's how stupid politics in America has gotten.

Not really.

Flying a flag, any flag, should be up to the citizens of a municipality, county or state.

If a town or city in the south wishes to fly the Stars and Bars and the local citizens agree with it, then it is of no concern to the federal government.

By the same token, if Boston wishes to fly the Nazi flag, they have the same right to do so without interference from the federal government.

Most candidates from the Republican side have said it is a state's rights issue. IMHO they are correct, not cowardly.

Don't you also wonder what Hillary thinks about ithe flag issue?

[Berkshire]

Many flags have flown over state capitol and cities...Mobile, AL has had six flags...Pensacola, FL five flags...both of which have flow the Confederate Flag as part of history...not as a symbol of hate or slavery or any other sinister message...

What if a group decided they no longer wanted the British, French or Spanish Flag flown because of some beef they have with those countries...

Let's not try to rewrite history...leave the flags out their for all to see how America once was, and has evolve into what it now is...

There are people in the world who see the American flag as a symbol of tyranny...and despise its presence...

Hmmm, so the Germans should be flying flags of the Nazi Third Reich in downtown Berlin because it's a "part of history"....? C'mon.

Regardless of what the Confederate Flag is "supposed" to mean, mainstream America now recognizes it to be synonymous with racial hatred and intolerance. The true, hardcore racists have hi-jacked it for years to use it as one of their most recognizable symbols. It's really no different than the Nazi swastika which, by no coincidence, is also used by hardcore racists to symbolize their beliefs.

Even Republicans know this, but because of the crazy politics in America, many are afraid to come out and alienate the looney far right (read their base). I'd like to think that these presidential candidates are just a bunch of cowards, but hey, it's just politics. Wink, wink. That's how stupid politics in America has gotten.

Not really.

Flying a flag, any flag, should be up to the citizens of a municipality, county or state.

If a town or city in the south wishes to fly the Stars and Bars and the local citizens agree with it, then it is of no concern to the federal government.

By the same token, if Boston wishes to fly the Nazi flag, they have the same right to do so without interference from the federal government.

Most candidates from the Republican side have said it is a state's rights issue. IMHO they are correct, not cowardly.

Don't you also wonder what Hillary thinks about ithe flag issue?

I don't think the federal government has any intention of forcing the state to do anything. All I've heard is suggestions that South Carolina should "do the right thing." Clearly, this flag offends a large number of people and can certainly (indirectly) inflame certain unbalanced individuals to commit violence. I think Hillary might have said something along those lines. If this flag is such an important part of southern history, then it belongs in a museum. Nothing wrong with that.

[chuckd]

And nothing wrong with flying it...if that is what the local population desires.

[Berkshire]

And nothing wrong with flying it...if that is what the local population desires.

Well that's the question, isn't it? That's what everyone is weighing in on, trying to get the "local population" to do the right thing.

[Jingthing]

Yep ... have to agree with Jeb Bush on that ... belongs in a museum and civil war reenactments.

[chuckd]

Why not just let the local population make the decision?

Why is anybody weighing in on it?

The "tight thing" for a small town in Texas might not be the "right thing" for a Brit located in Thailand.

It's a decision best left to those that have to live with it.

Edited June 22, 2015 by chuckd

[stevenl]

And nothing wrong with flying it...if that is what the local population desires.

Even then (which you're claiming to be the case but I have my doubts about that, I have seen no proof of that claim) it may not be a good idea to flag it knowing it insults many others.

[Publicus]

Memorial sculpture at front of the State House Boston to the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment, the first black combat unit of the Civil War.

Celebrating Augustus Saint-Gaudens’ magisterial Shaw Memorial (1883–1900), and the real soldiers of the 54th represented anonymously in the memorial.

On July 18, 1963 the 54th Massachusetts attacked strongly defended Fort Wagner on Morris Island in Charlston Harbor South Carolina as the first action to the Union defeat of Confederate forces to seize Charleston under the command of Brigadier George Crockett Strong of Vermont (USMA Class of 1857).

Private Charles H. Arnum

Private William J. Netson, Musician

Sergeant Joseph A. Palmer
Carte de visite by H.C. Foster, circa 1863-1865

Robert Gould Shaw of Boston, Colonel in Command
Lithograph

Private Charles A. Smith
Tintype, circa 1880

Sergeant Henry F. Steward
Hand-colored ambrotype, 1863

Lieutenant Stephen A. Swails

Lieutenant Peter Vogelsang

Private Abraham F. Brown
Tintype, circa 1862-1863

Sergeant James W. Bush

"54th Beach Camp before Fort Wagner, Morris Island, Charleston, South Carolina"

"Gun at Fort Wagner"
Photograph, circa 1863-1864

"Victorious Union Forces Dress Parade inside Fort Wagner, Morris Island,

Charlston, South Carolina"
Photograph, circa 1863-1864

http://www.masshist.org/online/54thregiment/essay.php?entry_id=528

Sergeant William Harvey Carney of the 54th Massachusetts Regiment was awarded his Nation's highest award, the Congressional Medal of Honor.

Photo Courtesy of the Congressional Medal of Honor Society

The 54th attacking Fort Wagner. with Sgt William H. Carney bearing the national colors. (From the Granger Collection)

Subsequently, 150,000 black Americans volunteered to fight for the Union and President Lincoln credited these black soldiers with having made a significant contribution to the successful pursuit of the Union victory.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Publicus