American gay couple unable to leave Thailand with daughter

[Fairynuff]

I'll shut up now!!!

No....don't!

[gk10002000]

Just make a run to the ATM, and surrogate's family will be satisfied...for a few weeks.

Yeah. Money will likely win here, assuming the authorities don't get in the way. But it is not uncommon for surrogate mothers to get a big change of heart after the child is born. Some legitimately, others try a money pull.

[Fairynuff]

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1435272679.595714.jpg

Lucky it didn't kill them all or there'd be no "discussion" going on here

[Franky Bear]

Hopefully the kid won't catch AIDs

Classs , THAT has to go down as the most stupid ignorant post on T V I`ve ever had the misfortuneto read

rijit

They keep out doing themselves with hate, lies and downright dumb ignorant crap

[joebrown]

"Release the homophobes!"

Yeah, I especially like the ones that read I have no problem with the gay lifestyle, but children...

Gay parents don't raise children to be gay, you dolts.

A little more baht to sweeten the deal should clear this up.

I'm 'straight' and until coming to LOS 10 years ago was homophobic. However, being in a more tolerant country than my homeland has taught me greater understanding of different lifestyles. I am pleased to say I now have gay friends. I've never asked them about their need for children or otherwise, but if I did I would ask them the question you have raised.

This question is - 'What exactly do gay parents raise their children to be?" IMHO most children look for role-models and try to follow the path set by their parents values, opinions and influences. I may be wrong but the parents' own lifestyle would most likely be the biggest influence on them.

[Yunla]

I believe all people have the right to their opinions, on LGBT or whatever. Parenting is quite complex though. There is some consensus in my group that marriage between husband and wife arrived about the same time as domestication of lifestock and building of the first forts. Before that time, and occupying the vast expanse of human history, people were tribal nomadic, and the children were raised collectively by the tribe. It seems that the idea of actual paternity is a modern one, and tied to the change from tribal to monogamous unions. My friend wrote an excellant essay pondering if the modern divorce rates worldwide, are somehow related to us being hardwired for tribal and not monogamous life.

This thread has got legs because it covers so many issues that are locked together. On the surrogacy issue, I have no problem with IVF and so on, within the parent's home nation and under regulations, but I am completely against the international babies-to-order market which I file under "exploitation."

I can not actually post much about surrogacy except as a segue to adoption, and why adoption is the best. And this is where my tolerance for other peoples' right to dislike LGBT breaks down. I respect everybody's views, but I can not agree with the stuff about "kids are only happy with Mum and Dad." Some of the nicest people I know were raised by single-father or single-mother. I'm a nice person too and I had no parents. Good parenting is not related to the gender or sexuality of the parent, it is related to providing a safe warm home, meals, schooling and fun activities. And also many children who were denied any kind of parenting or home at all, children who were homeless and abused, grow up to be the very nicest most successful people you are likely to meet. Parents giving a child a loving home is very important, as it means the child can enjoy childhood, and have a stable platform for the future. But that does not mean that lack of any parents or home equals failure in later life, if anything the opposite is true, the child just learns harsh adult lessons far too young and has a lot less happy childhood memories.

I totally believe that it is ridiculous to claim to have the best interests of children in one's heart, when saying the kids would be better off in children's home or wandering homeless, rather than being adopted into a warm secure home of a caring gay couple. To add "its not natural" and "they need Mum and Dad" ignores the fact that children awaiting adoption already don't have Mum and Dad, that is why they are awaiting adoption. They just want a safe home and basic kindness, these two things can be provided by singles/couples/straight/LGBT anything.

[English_M_in_Bkk]

I think I have entered some weird twilight world, where the Internet is being used by bigots from the 18th Century. This is the 21st Century right?

Some of the comments here are draw droppingly ignorant, wouldn't even know where to start.

[enufsaid]

Alex88, seems you're out of touch with young people today, I can tell you that many Aussie teens try gay bi & straight relationships then grow up & end up in a " straight" relationship. So yes people do make these choices. As far as the surrogate child goes, she's got no connection with the child, she rented her womb out, & it's all about the dollar or baht. He who can pay will win

Edited June 26, 2015 by enufsaid

[rijit]

"Release the homophobes!"

Yeah, I especially like the ones that read I have no problem with the gay lifestyle, but children...

Gay parents don't raise children to be gay, you dolts.

A little more baht to sweeten the deal should clear this up.

I'm 'straight' and until coming to LOS 10 years ago was homophobic. However, being in a more tolerant country than my homeland has taught me greater understanding of different lifestyles. I am pleased to say I now have gay friends. I've never asked them about their need for children or otherwise, but if I did I would ask them the question you have raised.

This question is - 'What exactly do gay parents raise their children to be?" IMHO most children look for role-models and try to follow the path set by their parents values, opinions and influences. I may be wrong but the parents' own lifestyle would most likely be the biggest influence on them.

I've no idea what expectations gay couples in general have for their children, but I'de hazard a quess it goes something like ' what ever makes them hapi' but you seem halfway bright if you cant work it out , go ask!!!

rijit

[thaibeachlovers]

No reason to pick on gay, single or elderly parents,

Until they introduce an exam and licence to become a parent, anyone can play.

I see lots of young guys (and girls), that clearly shouldn't be parents, posting on this forum every day.

Bigots make bad parents.

Good point- there SHOULD be a requirement to be proven suitable to bring a child into the world. Because parents are paid to have children in the western world ( tax incentives, child benefit ), the worst people possible are having children and bringing them up to be antisocial criminals.

[attrayant]

I've already given the definition of "natural Parenting", that is a mother & father. Don't know what other citations/ references you require

Can you explain what specific aspects make something "natural"? Humans are a part of nature, therefore whatever we do is, by extension, natural. To draw the line elsewhere would be purely arbitrary and subject to each person's biases and whims. Humans are the only species that cooks its food - is that natural? Are airplanes natural? The list goes on to the point where it becomes ridiculous to use "natural" as a benchmark for anything. Unless you can objectively establish that natural always equals good/beneficial/wholesome and unnatural always equals bad/detrimental/injurious, using the word "natural" to support a position is nothing more than a futile appeal to nature.

the majority of world's population are borne through male/ female intercourse & children raised in male/ female relationship.

Appeal to popularity. Just because it's popular or commonplace doesn't automatically make other options wrong. Slavery used to be normal in almost every human culture at one point in time (and in some places, still is). It was just "natural" that some people would be born into a life of servitude. That doesn't automatically make it right and other cultural way wrong.

The general theme of your responses seems to be that different = wrong. That is, of course, incorrect without further supporting statements. I would suggest you refrain from constantly pointing out that something is different, and instead explain how it's objectively wrong or detrimental.

That's been the natural process of the human race, surrogacy is a recent aspect, as is same sex parenting, it's not natural

You can keep saying it but it won't stop being wrong. According to Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, zoologists and other researchers have long been blinded by their own biases and presumptions. If you assume from the start that heterosexuality is the only possible behavior in the animal kingdom, then that's what you're going to find when you go looking. When homosexual acts were occasionally observed, they were classified as aggression or playing or peer bonding. We now know that's wrong.

The author compiled a list of more than 450 animals that engage in some sort of homosexual behavior of one or more of the following kinds: sex, courtship, affection, pair bonding and yes - parenting.

is it of benefit to a child to be raised I such a relationship? Don't believe any research has been undertaken, maybe, you're aware of such research??

That's a question that doesn't need to be asked or answered because we don't legislate based on what is beneficial, we legislate based on what is harmful or injurious. In other words, that which is not explicitly prohibited is permitted. So unless you can show that same-sex parenting is harmful to children or society, it should be permitted. I've already provided a link to a study that shows no important differences between children raised in same-sex versus opposite-sex households.

Edited June 26, 2015 by attrayant

[joebrown]

"Release the homophobes!"

Yeah, I especially like the ones that read I have no problem with the gay lifestyle, but children...

Gay parents don't raise children to be gay, you dolts.

A little more baht to sweeten the deal should clear this up.

I'm 'straight' and until coming to LOS 10 years ago was homophobic. However, being in a more tolerant country than my homeland has taught me greater understanding of different lifestyles. I am pleased to say I now have gay friends. I've never asked them about their need for children or otherwise, but if I did I would ask them the question you have raised.

This question is - 'What exactly do gay parents raise their children to be?" IMHO most children look for role-models and try to follow the path set by their parents values, opinions and influences. I may be wrong but the parents' own lifestyle would most likely be the biggest influence on them.

I've no idea what expectations gay couples in general have for their children, but I'de hazard a quess it goes something like ' what ever makes them hapi' but you seem halfway bright if you cant work it out , go ask!!!

rijit

"but you seem halfway bright if you can't work it out, go ask"

Many thanks for your condescending assessment of my IQ.

"but I'de hazard a guess it goes something like"......so you don't actually know the answer then, do you? As I pointed out my gay friends don't have children, or didn't you read that? Do you have any gay friends with children? If so, I suggest you go ask them about this issue, and then perhaps you might enlighten me with your findings, which will be based on factual information rather than 'guesswork'!

[kriswillems]

People take initiatives that are risky and that might turn out the wrong way.
In the end all parties involved suffer: Thai American gay couple, the Thai person that gave birth to the baby, and not to forget the child.

It's absolute morally wrong to start with a process like this when the legal rules are not 100% clear.
And only that is the reason I don't support the American couple.

[John1012]

Why do gay couples want children?

[Jingthing]

Why do gay couples want children?

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[John1012]

Why do gay couples want children?

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

Oh dear have I touched a nerve, 5555. I am not bigoted, just wish to expand on my knowledge of human behaviour.

A man & a woman become partners/married/friends and decide to procreate. Normal in nature.

Same sex couple become partners/married/friends cannot procreate. Normal in nature.

Procreation is generally to carry on the family gene pool, which is perfectly natural, and many women have strong maternal instincts, even gay women. So a lesbian couple can realistically have one, or both parners with strong maternal instincts. I cannot understand how a male can have strong maternal instincts. Can you explain to me how this is possible, or are they only trophy children?

[SoiBiker]

Why do gay couples want children?

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

Oh dear have I touched a nerve, 5555. I am not bigoted, just wish to expand on my knowledge of human behaviour.

A man & a woman become partners/married/friends and decide to procreate. Normal in nature.

Same sex couple become partners/married/friends cannot procreate. Normal in nature.

Procreation is generally to carry on the family gene pool, which is perfectly natural, and many women have strong maternal instincts, even gay women. So a lesbian couple can realistically have one, or both parners with strong maternal instincts. I cannot understand how a male can have strong maternal instincts. Can you explain to me how this is possible, or are they only trophy children?

You've never met a man who wanted kids?

I don't think much of your knowledge of human nature, then.

[Mudcrab]

Although I'm amused by the homophobia on this thread, it was inevitable that it would emerge, it does actually cloud the issue somewhat. -

There are 2 main things going on here, one is people's prejudices about gay couples, but the other is the matter of surrogacy and all the issues surrounding that.

the former i find sad but inevitable and a reflection on the ignorance of many people who have decided to post on an issue that is actually tangential to the OP. The Latter I find somewhat distasteful.

firstly I see no reason why same sex couples should;'t have children one way or another - regardless of one's sexual orientation the urge to have children remains and can be very strong.

The problem I have is that gay OR straight, people get overwhelmed by the need for children and begin to see it as a right.....I don't agree. ....and on the top of the list I have deep reservations about surrogacy as a way to parenthood. I'm not saying it should e illegal or banned - the usual redneck response to something they don't understand -burt I think all partied involved should think long and hard about the processes involved here. So often the whole thing smacks of exploitation - the surrogate mothers are usually very poor and the prospective parents are usually wealthy middle class from another country - surely anyone taking a step back from this can see there is a multitude of questionable actions and motives going on here?

There are millions of children all over the world who need care - as humans and mammals we are genetically programmed to adopt, so the need to be genetically connected, whilst sometimes a good idea, doesn't have to be the all engulfing prerequisite, does it?

For a successful surrogacy the people need to be fully informed and capable of understanding all aspects of the process - I suspect the situation in the OP is pretty much as I outlined above - poorer woman, rich parents, but it has also brought out the problems of intercultural surrogacy that can arise most likely from the woman's poor education she is relying on a one-sided view of gay relationships and the benefit of a true full education has probably been denied her - so this sorry situation has arisen.

the same applies to the prospective couple they clearly were not in possession of all the facts,and pitfalls that they might expect.....and in the middle of it all is another person - a child - just waiting to start a life.

And I'm amused by the continued use of the derogatory term homophobia to denigrate some peoples opinions.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. Think arachnophobia and spiders.

It seems that some in the gay community can't handle the fact that some people simply do not like homosexuals, so they choose to use words that allude to some form of mental illness to describe their detractors.

If you want to promote or defend a certain thing, please do so without using derogatory terms.....people might actually listen then.

Not that garbage again.

Dude, consult a dictionary.

We all do know the ROOT word phobia is about FEAR.

But check a dictionary and you will find the word HOMOPHOBIA actually means BOTH fear and hatred.

That is the definition.

That is the word we are talking about.

That is settled unless the definition changes in future.

Of course gay people know full well that lots of people are haters on gay people. DUH!

We've got some of them here, some open about it, some BS artists acting like they're not.

phobia

ˈfəʊbɪə/

noun

1. an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

   "she suffered from a phobia about birds"

   synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror,

   My dear JT note the word irrational in the definition. Which was the point of my post. Calling people irrational because they dislike homosexuals does nothing for the promotion of gay rights etc.

   Cherry picking certain words from a definition is a very poor way to make a point.

   Call them misguided, lacking understanding, whatever, but don't call them irrational which is what saying someone is homophobic is doing.

[JingerBen]

Why do gay couples want children?

There could be many answers to that question.

Ask the next gay couple you meet.

Then again, maybe better not... they take umbrage quickly.

[Shawn0001]

Holy homophobia Batman! What a bunch of prejudiced dinosaurs we have here.

Personally, I think a loving gay couple are likely to make better parents than an ex-hooker and an old man who'll likely be dead before the kid finishes school, in a relationship based on a financial transaction - but nobody seems to object to that sort of parenting round these parts.

My exact sentiments.... , just last week, I saw this old guy, about 80 walking or should I say scuffling along with a very small baby in his arms, and I thought it was a bit bizarre, then I saw this Thai Bird, about 20 years old with loads of Tatoos.... (Tramp stamp), come up to him and hold his arm ??? Fine if they are happy there lives, but he looked as though he was about to pop his clogs any minute.....

I don't agree with either, an old guy is going to have some time with his kid, and he only has that 30 year younger wife because he has plenty of money, but two men bringing up a kid together????? that is just cruel to the kid, he/she is going to spend the rest of his/her life wondering "will I call them both dad or what?

His/her mind is going to go all sort of ways, he /she is going to wonder why his pals (that's if he/ she ever has any) have a female mum and a male dad,

and he/she is going to resent the fact that he/she is different from normal people. It is just cruel to bring up a kid in that unnatural way.

You present your imagination as facts. One of my friends at school was brought up in a same sex household, she did not suffer any of the problems you envision.

[rijit]

"Release the homophobes!"

Yeah, I especially like the ones that read I have no problem with the gay lifestyle, but children...

Gay parents don't raise children to be gay, you dolts.

A little more baht to sweeten the deal should clear this up.

I'm 'straight' and until coming to LOS 10 years ago was homophobic. However, being in a more tolerant country than my homeland has taught me greater understanding of different lifestyles. I am pleased to say I now have gay friends. I've never asked them about their need for children or otherwise, but if I did I would ask them the question you have raised.

This question is - 'What exactly do gay parents raise their children to be?" IMHO most children look for role-models and try to follow the path set by their parents values, opinions and influences. I may be wrong but the parents' own lifestyle would most likely be the biggest influence on them.

I've no idea what expectations gay couples in general have for their children, but I'de hazard a quess it goes something like ' what ever makes them hapi' but you seem halfway bright if you cant work it out , go ask!!!

rijit

"but you seem halfway bright if you can't work it out, go ask"

Many thanks for your condescending assessment of my IQ.

"but I'de hazard a guess it goes something like"......so you don't actually know the answer then, do you? As I pointed out my gay friends don't have children, or didn't you read that? Do you have any gay friends with children? If so, I suggest you go ask them about this issue, and then perhaps you might enlighten me with your findings, which will be based on factual information rather than 'guesswork'!

Well. i take it back your not halfway bright at all, no where near it.

rijit

Edited June 26, 2015 by rijit

[Shawn0001]

Although I'm amused by the homophobia on this thread, it was inevitable that it would emerge, it does actually cloud the issue somewhat. -

There are 2 main things going on here, one is people's prejudices about gay couples, but the other is the matter of surrogacy and all the issues surrounding that.

the former i find sad but inevitable and a reflection on the ignorance of many people who have decided to post on an issue that is actually tangential to the OP. The Latter I find somewhat distasteful.

firstly I see no reason why same sex couples should;'t have children one way or another - regardless of one's sexual orientation the urge to have children remains and can be very strong.

The problem I have is that gay OR straight, people get overwhelmed by the need for children and begin to see it as a right.....I don't agree. ....and on the top of the list I have deep reservations about surrogacy as a way to parenthood. I'm not saying it should e illegal or banned - the usual redneck response to something they don't understand -burt I think all partied involved should think long and hard about the processes involved here. So often the whole thing smacks of exploitation - the surrogate mothers are usually very poor and the prospective parents are usually wealthy middle class from another country - surely anyone taking a step back from this can see there is a multitude of questionable actions and motives going on here?

There are millions of children all over the world who need care - as humans and mammals we are genetically programmed to adopt, so the need to be genetically connected, whilst sometimes a good idea, doesn't have to be the all engulfing prerequisite, does it?

For a successful surrogacy the people need to be fully informed and capable of understanding all aspects of the process - I suspect the situation in the OP is pretty much as I outlined above - poorer woman, rich parents, but it has also brought out the problems of intercultural surrogacy that can arise most likely from the woman's poor education she is relying on a one-sided view of gay relationships and the benefit of a true full education has probably been denied her - so this sorry situation has arisen.

the same applies to the prospective couple they clearly were not in possession of all the facts,and pitfalls that they might expect.....and in the middle of it all is another person - a child - just waiting to start a life.

And I'm amused by the continued use of the derogatory term homophobia to denigrate some peoples opinions.

A phobia is defined as an irrational fear of something. Think arachnophobia and spiders.

It seems that some in the gay community can't handle the fact that some people simply do not like homosexuals, so they choose to use words that allude to some form of mental illness to describe their detractors.

If you want to promote or defend a certain thing, please do so without using derogatory terms.....people might actually listen then.

Not that garbage again.

Dude, consult a dictionary.

We all do know the ROOT word phobia is about FEAR.

But check a dictionary and you will find the word HOMOPHOBIA actually means BOTH fear and hatred.

That is the definition.

That is the word we are talking about.

That is settled unless the definition changes in future.

Of course gay people know full well that lots of people are haters on gay people. DUH!

We've got some of them here, some open about it, some BS artists acting like they're not.

phobia

ˈfəʊbɪə/

noun

1. an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

   "she suffered from a phobia about birds"

   synonyms: abnormal fear, irrational fear, obsessive fear, fear, dread, horror, terror,

   My dear JT note the word irrational in the definition. Which was the point of my post. Calling people irrational because they dislike homosexuals does nothing for the promotion of gay rights etc.

   Cherry picking certain words from a definition is a very poor way to make a point.

   Call them misguided, lacking understanding, whatever, but don't call them irrational which is what saying someone is homophobic is doing.

Rationality requires explanation through reason or logic. Please explain the rationaliy behind your dislike of homosexuals.

[smutcakes]

God made Adam & Eve not Adam & Steve

[Baerboxer]

I have no objection to life style choices. Gay, straight or whatever. I do have concern however when you deviate out of your lifestyle choice. If the gay way of life produces off spring then hey congrats. However a gay coupleseeking surrogacy is a tad bit hypocrital to me. You choose a gay lifestyle but yearn the outcome of a straight lifestyle. If you do have money and feel the need for a child, then adopt. There are so many orphans in this world.

Living a gay lifestyle is no choice I guess, but the desire to have kids is a choice.

Unfortunately, according to written and unwritten rules in our narrow-sighted community it's not possible to "obtain" kids in the well-known biological way.

This is baby buying. No more, no less. Dress it up however you want. IVF means they can father a baby through a surrogate woman without sexual relations.

Stereotyping anyone because of their sexual orientation is wrong. The could be loving caring intelligent sensitive individuals in a highly stable relationship; or complete dregs like that Aussie pedo. Have social checks been done?

The real arguments are about putting a baby into non traditional family environment. That needs to be judged from the child's perspective, throughout all the years that child will grow to adulthood. How for instance, will the "parents" react if the child isn't homosexual or wants to explore his Asian roots?

The child is the important aspect - not what the adults want solely.

[Jingthing]

Asian roots were mentioned.

Well, the father isn't Asian and the lady who gave birth is not the mother.

So who is the biological mother? Why are "Asian" roots assumed?

If Asian roots, so what, it's not as if that is a problem.

Regardless of how this happened, THIS baby already exists and the lady who gave birth to her has no biological connection to this baby.

Does she really want this baby?

Is she really a good candidate to raise her?
If not, so she ends up in an orphanage in Thailand?

To the the "morality" police here ... that's better than a loving couple with a biological connection (one of them) raising her?

That doesn't wash.

To those who think this might be a financial shakedown ... well, I don't know, but that seems more logical than the gay panic excuse.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[NoshowJones]

Why do gay couples want children?

Why do straight couples want children?

If you think that is a stupid question, you'd be right.

Well, I think your question is stupid as well.

It's like you're so bigoted that you think gay people are a different SPECIES or something.

Of course not all gay people want children and not all straight people do either.

I think the previous poster is asking, "why do 'any' homosexual couples want children" I think it would be OK for homosexuals to work with children, or maybe even foster them for a few weeks until they get placed with a normal couple. I believe they would look after them well, but I cannot change my mind on this, homosexuals should never be able to adopt them. The kids would just get all mixed up.

[Jingthing]

Don't change your view. It's happening and it's nothing at all new and there is no evidence of harm to the kids. Especially among LESBIANS who yes have it easier because they can birth the babies themselves.

Look, dudes, GLBT are indeed a minority group and some haters hate them. But that's no reason to deny GLBT people parental rights. By that logic, Jews who are also a small minority that many people hate shouldn't be allowed kids because they will be exposed to haters as they grow up. The problem is the HATERS. It is not the people who wish to be parents.

There is no perfect family or perfect parents. Each family is different in their own way. This is part of the fabric of diversity which is something that enlightened, civilized, non-bigoted people value.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Jingthing

[NoshowJones]

Holy homophobia Batman! What a bunch of prejudiced dinosaurs we have here.

Personally, I think a loving gay couple are likely to make better parents than an ex-hooker and an old man who'll likely be dead before the kid finishes school, in a relationship based on a financial transaction - but nobody seems to object to that sort of parenting round these parts.

My exact sentiments.... , just last week, I saw this old guy, about 80 walking or should I say scuffling along with a very small baby in his arms, and I thought it was a bit bizarre, then I saw this Thai Bird, about 20 years old with loads of Tatoos.... (Tramp stamp), come up to him and hold his arm ??? Fine if they are happy there lives, but he looked as though he was about to pop his clogs any minute.....

I don't agree with either, an old guy is going to have some time with his kid, and he only has that 30 year younger wife because he has plenty of money, but two men bringing up a kid together????? that is just cruel to the kid, he/she is going to spend the rest of his/her life wondering "will I call them both dad or what?

His/her mind is going to go all sort of ways, he /she is going to wonder why his pals (that's if he/ she ever has any) have a female mum and a male dad,

and he/she is going to resent the fact that he/she is different from normal people. It is just cruel to bring up a kid in that unnatural way.

You present your imagination as facts. One of my friends at school was brought up in a same sex household, she did not suffer any of the problems you envision.

As far as you know.

[pigeonjake]

going back and reading the OP,

i dont think him and his husband have told her who gave birth to this child the truth,,,

else why didnt they both go and see this new born child

[pigeonjake]

just for a minute,lets think about this child,

this child goes to school, holidays come around, and this child says im going on holiday with my dad and my dad,!

what do you think the other kids are going to say, this child and others in the same situation would get that much stick it would be unreal, and your saying this isnt going to harm the kids,

youll be wanting schools next just for kids from same sex couples,

and yes your right i dont agree with gays bring kids into there life styll