Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Mooner]

Interesting how the RTP apologist are always asking for links then a few journalists tweet about not being able to get translators because they were scared off yet these posts are ignored.

I guess these journalist are conspiracy theorists.

I have to say I am bemused by the these guys defending the so called "case" when we see everyday the shocking standards of investigating.

Backtracking, misinformation and playing dumb in a court of law.

[Darkknight666]

I can tell you something about the K-9's in Bangkok, There are few. And the ones who occasionally roam with BtS guards and police aren't trained police dogs, they're Golden Retrievers who wouldn't even recognize the scent of weed. So, any police dogs would be about as competent as their handlers.

[sgtsabai]

Ah but buggy, many would like to know if you are in Thailand, what your interest in the case, who do you know and many other things about why you shill for the RTP and island mafia. Many of us would like to know what your connection, or "connections" are. Everything you say is nothing but conspiracy theory. A cop doesn't know how to handle a crime scene, what kind of cop would that be? I was basically what we call in America a "possum cop" for over 10 yrs. and I learned crime scene protection much earlier as a Federal firefighter. I was damn good at preserving the crime scene, proper collection of evidence and preserving the chain of evidence. Yes we really would like to know your "interest" in this case which would have never proceeded to trail, oops I meant trial, due to the corruption at the crime scene.

[fish fingers]

Time Magazine http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

I'm guessing Prayuth will add this to the list of Banned media v soon..

[BritTim]

So if only 5 are what you called "Facts" then I gather the rest is just Bull-shit then and I will throw them in the Bull-shit Pile.

Okay? Lets' check Your "Facts"

Sniffer Dogs?

I can't see what the Sniffer Dogs would do on the beach, besides having a good Poopoo, when the Crime Scene is covered in 2 feet of water after the Tide came in.

Mon on the crime scene?

The Media Reported the bodies were discovered by beach cleaners, but if it was the gardener no difference, as they both would have worked for Mon and his hotel or the bar.

Now if some excited migrant worker came running to you all excited and said in broken English he found bodies on the beach what would you do? Well before I would call the Police and possibly make a fool out of myself.I would go and look for myself first. Which I gather this is what he would do also.

Since the bodies were behind rocks, he would need to enter the crime scene to see for himself. Or do you think a partial blind migrant beach cleaner, or gardener would call the Police before he talked to his boss first, who he knew was nearby?

Allowed People to handle evidence without rubber gloves?

The only instances I can think of is first the the Hoe. The gardener went to get his hoe as he needed it. He did not know it could be a possible murder weapon at that time so he handled it the same way as he always did. This does not qualify that they allowed him to do this. He just did what he normally did each day. I believe it was Mon and the Police who asked the Gardener to put on gloves before returning the hoe, which contradicts your "Fact" also.

David Millers Body was perhaps the second instance and handled without gloves. I don't no for sure. But either way I don't see much choice they had then. The Tide was coming in and they either had to move him or risk that he would be swept away, and taken out to sea. If there is more it will be answered in you next "Fact".

Didn't have qualified people doing Forensics?

If you mean the crime scene I already explained that in an early post but for you I will give you the shorter version.

People here tend to like to compare this case to a case involving the FBI investigating a case in New York City, or Scotland Yard in London. What they tend to forget is that these double murders and rape took place on a small remote island that has a population of about 2,000 People and a Total Police Force of 5 people.

How much training do you think they have in securing a Crime Scene and if so how long ago? How many Double Murders and Rapes do you think they handle every year? What is the size of their S.W.A.T. Team on the Island? The highest ranking Police Officer on the Island was on the stand and when asked by the Defense he said he was involved with 2 rapes but not including a murder in his Life-time. That should indicate the rest of the Police Men and there experience.

How long would it take to get a Profession Investigative Team together in Bangkok, with approval from the higher ups, plus all the equipment and supplies you are going to need? Then get from Bangkok to a remote island and unload everything then get to the Crime Scene? Have they even a place for them to all stay that night and sleep? Would you go if you had to sleep in the Jungle? Would you send your men to do that?

My point is Professional help was a long way off and since the Tide was coming in they had to do something quickly or risk losing all the evidence and maybe even the bodies. That is also why they asked for help from ordinary people. But then you would probably think all this was all staged to.

Lied about DNA?

They never did and that has never been proven anywhere, so this is not a "Fact" at all. So I will just throw that one in the Bull-shit Pile.

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

[Nigeone]

Is there anyone else on here wondering where this is going to end up. In a civilised society this would probably never came to court and certainly not got this far. It's more than a bit worrying as if this cover up and stitch up continues and the B2 are found guilty, and I'm my opinion from what has been offered up by the prosecution is not remotely likely they did it, what chance does Thailand have in the future. If this charade continues and the RTP get there way the proverbial s*** is going to hit the fan. The longer it goes on the deeper hole is getting dug. While the case has a timetable I'm not convinced this is not going to to have ramifications for years to come. I'm sure the powers that be in other countries are watching and noting from a distance and hoping the Thai justice system sees the light but God help them if they don't. And for all those supporting the prosecution side of the argument I admire your loyalty but not your naivety as nothing remotely presented by the prosecution has strengthened their hand in the 3 days up to now. We all wait for the next round as I'm positive there will be more 'evidence' to be pulled apart by any intelligent and fair minded observer.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Nigeone

[JohnThailandJohn]

As Thailandchilli indicated, the defence team including Andy Hall are working for free in this case (pro bono).

I've read near all posts in this thread and I haven't come across one that has made mention of a personal donation to help support this case.

I've just had communications with Andy Hall and made a donation.

As I understand he, as with the defence team, are engaging in this case with every effort and resource available.

The British FCO are wishing for a fair and transparent trial but are prevented from having direct input. Therefore, we have a chance to provide assistance.

Irrespective of your views in this case, it is possible to have a direct effect on fairness and transparency.

Impartiality is questionable as evidenced thus far. Financial support for the defence is required. Would it not be satisfying to know you may just help bring fairness to this case.

Give it some thought.

Have to agree with asking people to put there money where their mouth is. Seems most are unwilling to do this but have no issue with screaming these two are innocent and they spend hours upon hours working on theories for other social media detectives to compare.

As and FYI, Andy is not somebody's whose words I would trust regarding this case, I believe he has his own agenda and plays lose with the facts.

These are attorneys assigned by their embassy and receive funds from the embassy to cover costs as well as receive donations and assume receive a salary seeing how they are embassy attorneys. If I recall the embassy was also footing the bill for family and witness travel and stay.

http://www.mizzima.com/affairs-news-domestic/myanmar-team-calls-more-money-koh-tao-murder-suspects

Thank you for your opinion on the Human Rights advocate Andy Hall, its noted but disagreed with. Actually my opinion on the prosecution & RTP is much the same as yours on Andy.

As for the funds and what they are for, read the post and you will see, its for witnesses from the UK which the Burmese embassy is not funding.

It has been widely reported that the lawyers were HIRED by the embassy (not pro bono) in addition their government is paying numerous expenses, not to mention they are receiving donations as well as Andy. NOT PRO BONO.

[silverado]

Is there anyone else on here wondering where this is going to end up. In a civilised society this would probably never came to court and certainly not got this far. It's more than a bit worrying as if this cover up and stitch up continues and the B2 are found guilty, and I'm my opinion from what has been offered up by the prosecution is not remotely likely they did it, what chance does Thailand have in the future. If this charade continues and the RTP get there way the proverbial s*** is going to hit the fan. The longer it goes on the deeper hole is getting dug. While the case has a timetable I'm not convinced this is not going to to have ramifications for years to come. I'm sure the powers that be in other countries are watching and noting from a distance and hoping the Thai justice system sees the light but God help them if they don't. And for all those supporting the prosecution side of the argument I admire your loyalty but not your naivety as nothing remotely presented by the prosecution has strengthened their hand in the 3 days up to now. We all wait for the next round as I'm positive there will be more 'evidence' to be pulled apart by any intelligent and far minded observer.

I am afraid the real culprits psychotics beests are going around not so far (if not in )the island , free and in all impunity for a long time waiting the next attractive farang lady who dare going on the beach wearing bikini.... they will do it again as it was not their first rodéo....

[Nigeone]

As regards the money issue and who's paying for what I think Andy Hall is asking for help where possible for matters not covered by embassy with regards witness etc. I'm afraid to say I'm due to illness I'm on Incapacity benefit and all I have to live on is £104 a week but if my situation was different I would give what I could. In fact if I can I will still try to donate even if it's a £5 . I have been sickened by this case and while having travelled to Thailand over many years and knew there was corruption etc I really didn't know it was quite this bad when two lovely young people have been murdered in such away and the cover up is so clinical and involved. It's quite scary and has put me off living in Thailand in the future. If my personal and health situation ever changed I would have to really consider if I could live there while before it was my dream. Once again on the eve of the continuation of the trial my thoughts and prayers go out to the poor family and friends of Hannah and David. God bless you all.

[silverado]

Is there anyone else on here wondering where this is going to end up. In a civilised society this would probably never came to court and certainly not got this far. It's more than a bit worrying as if this cover up and stitch up continues and the B2 are found guilty, and I'm my opinion from what has been offered up by the prosecution is not remotely likely they did it, what chance does Thailand have in the future. If this charade continues and the RTP get there way the proverbial s*** is going to hit the fan. The longer it goes on the deeper hole is getting dug. While the case has a timetable I'm not convinced this is not going to to have ramifications for years to come. I'm sure the powers that be in other countries are watching and noting from a distance and hoping the Thai justice system sees the light but God help them if they don't. And for all those supporting the prosecution side of the argument I admire your loyalty but not your naivety as nothing remotely presented by the prosecution has strengthened their hand in the 3 days up to now. We all wait for the next round as I'm positive there will be more 'evidence' to be pulled apart by any intelligent and far minded observer.

I am afraid the real culprits psychotics beests are going around not so far (if not in )the island , free and in all impunity for a long time waiting the next attractive farang lady who dare going on the beach wearing bikini.... they will do it again as it was not their first rodéo....

"those supporting the prosecution , I admire your loyalty but not your naivety ...."

i would like to tell you too that i don't agree with you about it : i don't think most of them are naive, neither they are loyal.... just having interests in koh tao... can you guess what kind of interests/businesses ?

ps : we all know that numerous alias are raging here

Edited July 21, 2015 by silverado

[Nigeone]

Is there anyone else on here wondering where this is going to end up. In a civilised society this would probably never came to court and certainly not got this far. It's more than a bit worrying as if this cover up and stitch up continues and the B2 are found guilty, and I'm my opinion from what has been offered up by the prosecution is not remotely likely they did it, what chance does Thailand have in the future. If this charade continues and the RTP get there way the proverbial s*** is going to hit the fan. The longer it goes on the deeper hole is getting dug. While the case has a timetable I'm not convinced this is not going to to have ramifications for years to come. I'm sure the powers that be in other countries are watching and noting from a distance and hoping the Thai justice system sees the light but God help them if they don't. And for all those supporting the prosecution side of the argument I admire your loyalty but not your naivety as nothing remotely presented by the prosecution has strengthened their hand in the 3 days up to now. We all wait for the next round as I'm positive there will be more 'evidence' to be pulled apart by any intelligent and far minded observer.

I am afraid the real culprits psychotics beests are going around not so far (if not in )the island , free and in all impunity for a long time waiting the next attractive farang lady who dare going on the beach wearing bikini.... they will do it again as it was not their first rodéo....

"those supporting the prosecution , I admire your loyalty but not your naivety ...."

i would like to tell you too that i don't agree with you about it : i don't think most of them are naive, neither they are loyal.... just having interests in koh tao...

ps : we all know that numerous alias are raging here

I agree with you my friend. I was just being polite which I know is not deserved to some . A misguided loyalty in fact bordering on as bad as the RTP , and naivety as to think any person with a remotely semblance of intelligence can't see what's happening. Hope that clears up my feelings and I take your point. Certainly don't mind your comments. where on the same page! Edited July 21, 2015 by Nigeone

[BritTim]

It has been widely reported that the lawyers were HIRED by the embassy (not pro bono) in addition their government is paying numerous expenses, not to mention they are receiving donations as well as Andy. NOT PRO BONO.

Your post above is disgusting, because you are too intelligent not to know it is highly misleading, and an unwarranted attack on good people attempting to prevent a miscarriage of justice. The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers, and for key Burmese witnesses to attend. Nothing else. The Thai lawyers are offering their services pro bono. Human rights organizations are assisting without payment. The vast majority of the expenses are having to be paid out of individual donations. That includes trying to get expert witnesses over from the UK.

If you have any decency, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[JohnThailandJohn]

It has been widely reported that the lawyers were HIRED by the embassy (not pro bono) in addition their government is paying numerous expenses, not to mention they are receiving donations as well as Andy. NOT PRO BONO.

Your post above is disgusting, because you are too intelligent not to know it is highly misleading, and an unwarranted attack on good people attempting to prevent a miscarriage of justice. The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers, and for key Burmese witnesses to attend. Nothing else. The Thai lawyers are offering their services pro bono. Human rights organizations are assisting without payment. The vast majority of the expenses are having to be paid out of individual donations. That includes trying to get expert witnesses over from the UK.

If you have any decency, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Aung Meo Tan, who has been hired by the Myanmar embassy to represent the two suspect....

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Lawyer-for-migrants-wants-DNA-evidence-verified-30245154.html

Aung Myo Thant, a Burmese lawyer who is part of a legal team sent by the Burmese Embassy in Bangkok to represent the accused...

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/burmese-suspects-koh-tao-murders-tortured-interrogation-lawyer.html

Attorney Aung Myo Thant from the Burmese Embassy made his comments after meeting with the two men, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/10/07/koh-tao-murders-accused-men-recant-confessions-tell-embassy-lawyer-they-were-tortured

"We met Maung Saw and Maung Win at Koh Samui prison. They told us they committed the crime while they were under the influence of alcohol," said Aung Myo Than, a lawyer from the embassy.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/Myanmar-extends-help-to-murder-suspects-in-Thailan-30244979.html

While the last quote may certainly bare on their guilt or innocence, the fact the lawyers are being paid and the embassy is footing the bill for many expenses as well as donations is not indicative of guilt or innocence. Neither is if a defendant's lawyer being paid or not.

Edited July 21, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[IslandLover]

hello everybody,

first of all, it seems that we have a few disgusting people (alias or no) who are posting here (on an exagerated way), poison the subject, the forum and causing troubles . may i suggest to them : ignore me and move it along !

new on the forum i hope to help and contribute positivly to the discussion in the future but i wanted to say that above...

i leave you with the kind of naugthy people (found on FB) i don't want to argue. they will recognize them self in this :

Sorry, I don't get your point, new friend. Do you have an idea as to who Adam is? Fear won't stop me. Or many others. What do you think charging someone for talking on a website about a crime, this crime, would say about the politics/corruption?

I know who he is

[BritTim]

It has been widely reported that the lawyers were HIRED by the embassy (not pro bono) in addition their government is paying numerous expenses, not to mention they are receiving donations as well as Andy. NOT PRO BONO.

Your post above is disgusting, because you are too intelligent not to know it is highly misleading, and an unwarranted attack on good people attempting to prevent a miscarriage of justice. The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers, and for key Burmese witnesses to attend. Nothing else. The Thai lawyers are offering their services pro bono. Human rights organizations are assisting without payment. The vast majority of the expenses are having to be paid out of individual donations. That includes trying to get expert witnesses over from the UK.

If you have any decency, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Aung Meo Tan, who has been hired by the Myanmar embassy to represent the two suspect....

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Lawyer-for-migrants-wants-DNA-evidence-verified-30245154.html

Aung Myo Thant, a Burmese lawyer who is part of a legal team sent by the Burmese Embassy in Bangkok to represent the accused...

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/burmese-suspects-koh-tao-murders-tortured-interrogation-lawyer.html

Attorney Aung Myo Thant from the Burmese Embassy made his comments after meeting with the two men, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/10/07/koh-tao-murders-accused-men-recant-confessions-tell-embassy-lawyer-they-were-tortured

Did you read my post? It included:

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers

The main defense is being provided by Thai lawyers offering their services pro bono, and most expenses are not being paid by the Burmese government.

The legal team representing the 22-year-old bar and restaurant workers is made up of pro-bono lawyers and human rights activists ...

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/07/burmese-men-trial-murder-thailand-british-backpackers-hannah-witheridge-david-miller (and almost every other substantive piece on this horrible case.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Your post above is disgusting, because you are too intelligent not to know it is highly misleading, and an unwarranted attack on good people attempting to prevent a miscarriage of justice. The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers, and for key Burmese witnesses to attend. Nothing else. The Thai lawyers are offering their services pro bono. Human rights organizations are assisting without payment. The vast majority of the expenses are having to be paid out of individual donations. That includes trying to get expert witnesses over from the UK.

If you have any decency, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Aung Meo Tan, who has been hired by the Myanmar embassy to represent the two suspect.... [/size]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Lawyer-for-migrants-wants-DNA-evidence-verified-30245154.html

Aung Myo Thant, a Burmese lawyer who is part of a legal team sent by the Burmese Embassy in Bangkok to represent the accused...

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/burmese-suspects-koh-tao-murders-tortured-interrogation-lawyer.html

Attorney Aung Myo Thant from the Burmese Embassy made his comments after meeting with the two men, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun[/size]

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/10/07/koh-tao-murders-accused-men-recant-confessions-tell-embassy-lawyer-they-were-tortured

Did you read my post? It included:

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers

The main defense is being provided by Thai lawyers offering their services pro bono, and most expenses are not being paid by the Burmese government.

The legal team representing the 22-year-old bar and restaurant workers is made up of pro-bono lawyers and human rights activists ...[/size]

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/07/burmese-men-trial-murder-thailand-british-backpackers-hannah-witheridge-david-miller (and almost every other substantive piece on this horrible case.

Clearly the Guardian is incorrect, as you admit, because the one guy doing all the speaking and is the main lawyer works for the embassy. So, the legal team is NOT made of of pro bono lawyers though it may or may not include some. Also I didn't use the word most (though that may be the case), I said numerous expenses.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

[silverado]

hello everybody,

first of all, it seems that we have a few disgusting people (alias or no) who are posting here (on an exagerated way), poison the subject, the forum and causing troubles . may i suggest to them : ignore me and move it along !

new on the forum i hope to help and contribute positivly to the discussion in the future but i wanted to say that above...

i leave you with the kind of naugthy people (found on FB) i don't want to argue. they will recognize them self in this :

Sorry, I don't get your point, new friend. Do you have an idea as to who Adam is? Fear won't stop me. Or many others. What do you think charging someone for talking on a website about a crime, this crime, would say about the politics/corruption?

I know who he is

can you tell us if can be one of these disgusting people i hin at above ?

[BritTim]

Your post above is disgusting, because you are too intelligent not to know it is highly misleading, and an unwarranted attack on good people attempting to prevent a miscarriage of justice. The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers, and for key Burmese witnesses to attend. Nothing else. The Thai lawyers are offering their services pro bono. Human rights organizations are assisting without payment. The vast majority of the expenses are having to be paid out of individual donations. That includes trying to get expert witnesses over from the UK.

If you have any decency, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Aung Meo Tan, who has been hired by the Myanmar embassy to represent the two suspect.... [/size]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Lawyer-for-migrants-wants-DNA-evidence-verified-30245154.html

Aung Myo Thant, a Burmese lawyer who is part of a legal team sent by the Burmese Embassy in Bangkok to represent the accused...

http://www.irrawaddy.org/burma/burmese-suspects-koh-tao-murders-tortured-interrogation-lawyer.html

Attorney Aung Myo Thant from the Burmese Embassy made his comments after meeting with the two men, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun[/size]

http://bangkok.coconuts.co/2014/10/07/koh-tao-murders-accused-men-recant-confessions-tell-embassy-lawyer-they-were-tortured

Did you read my post? It included:

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids. It is paying some Burmese lawyers

The main defense is being provided by Thai lawyers offering their services pro bono, and most expenses are not being paid by the Burmese government.

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/07/burmese-men-trial-murder-thailand-british-backpackers-hannah-witheridge-david-miller (and almost every other substantive piece on this horrible case.

Clearly the Guardian is incorrect, as you admit, because the one guy doing all the speaking and is the main lawyer works for the embassy. So, the legal team is NOT made of of pro bono lawyers though it may or may not include some. Also I didn't use the word most (though that may be the case), I said numerous expenses.

The Guardian article, from a couple of weeks ago, is substantially correct. The person speaking for the embassy in early October 2014 is not a key part of the defense team today, and has not been for at least 8 months. The lead lawyer is not a Burmese, but Nakhon Chomphuchat, a well known lawyer in Thailand.

Mostly, the Burmese government, apart from paying some limited legal fees to Burmese lawyers, is only paying expenses for key Burmese witnesses to attend the trial. The vast majority of the expenses are coming from individual donations.

I am sure you know these facts as well as I do. That is what shocks me. You cynical attempt to hamper a fair trial by blackening the defense to reduce donations is truly disgusting behavior. In my case, it just makes me determined to make a donation which I will today.

[IslandLover]

The suicide note was in French, he hung himself next to the balcony handrail and as it was extensively discussed back then people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands.

Isn't it time to allow Dmtri Povse rest in peace already?

The suicide note was in French,

Correct.

he hung himself next to the balcony handrail

If it was suicide, he would have had to do it by jumping from the handrail. He would have needed to tie his hands behind his back while balanced on the rail. This is conceivable, but extremely difficult.

people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands

Correct.

I discussed all available photos with two experienced homicide detectives. They both said that, based purely on the photographic evidence, the most likely scenario was assisted suicide. However, the scientific tests would be crucial in confirming or refuting this. The express cremation almost certainly prevented such tests from being carried out.

It's strange that Mr. Dimitri Povse used an identical type of cord and knot to hang himself as a policeman who allegedly committed suicide in Korat province. What are the odds for that? A cryptic comment was made that perhaps they went to the same hanging school. I have the photographic evidence but will not post it here for obvious reasons.

[fab99]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

You think you will cast doubt by asking this question?

The vast majority of people believe migrants workers (the B2 being part of them) have been threatened and hurt in the process of finding scapegoats, there are reports and pictures of burn skin.

Don't you think they were scared in prison and threatened as well, they retracted when they felt they could as the media was covering it extensively, something happening to them would have been too suspicious and they were then "safer" (a convenient "suicide" was kind of expected at the beginning).

I think you should put yourself in their shoes one minute (but I don't think you would) and imagine yourself trapped for months even if you haven't done anything else than having a few smokes not far from the scene of a totally inhumane crime. I strongly believe these two young guys with no prior problem with the law didn't do it, it took more people ( I should say beasts not people) to savagely murder these two young innocent tourists.

I don't understand how some of you can believe the B2 did it, so strongly so that you have to spend so much time in this forum trying to make it look like the vast majority isn't on the "conspiracy theory" (lol) side...

Edited July 22, 2015 by fab99

[BritTim]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

No, it has not been officially explained. Those with any imagination can well understand though. At the time, they were fully under the control of their torturers, and had been warned of dire consequences if they tried to declare their innocence.

Now you explain. Why have they both been steadfast in their declarations of innocence once assured of protection?

[JohnThailandJohn]

The Guardian article, from a couple of weeks ago, is substantially correct. The person speaking for the embassy in early October 2014 is not a key part of the defense team today, and has not been for at least 8 months. The lead lawyer is not a Burmese, but Nakhon Chomphuchat, a well known lawyer in Thailand.

Mostly, the Burmese government, apart from paying some limited legal fees to Burmese lawyers, is only paying expenses for key Burmese witnesses to attend the trial. The vast majority of the expenses are coming from individual donations.

I am sure you know these facts as well as I do. That is what shocks me. You cynical attempt to hamper a fair trial by blackening the defense to reduce donations is truly disgusting behavior. In my case, it just makes me determined to make a donation which I will today.

I had no idea who their lawyer currently was but appreciate your sharing this and now makes sense to me why the paid lawyer is no longer involved since he was the one who met with them initially and then came out and publicly stated they confessed to him but also told him they were threatened by police.

Edited July 22, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[BritTim]

The suicide note was in French, he hung himself next to the balcony handrail and as it was extensively discussed back then people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands.

Isn't it time to allow Dmtri Povse rest in peace already?

The suicide note was in French,

Correct.

he hung himself next to the balcony handrail

If it was suicide, he would have had to do it by jumping from the handrail. He would have needed to tie his hands behind his back while balanced on the rail. This is conceivable, but extremely difficult.

people that commit suicide by hanging are known to tie their hands

Correct.

I discussed all available photos with two experienced homicide detectives. They both said that, based purely on the photographic evidence, the most likely scenario was assisted suicide. However, the scientific tests would be crucial in confirming or refuting this. The express cremation almost certainly prevented such tests from being carried out.

It's strange that Mr. Dimitri Povse used an identical type of cord and knot to hang himself as a policeman who allegedly committed suicide in Korat province. What are the odds for that? A cryptic comment was made that perhaps they went to the same hanging school. I have the photographic evidence but will not post it here for obvious reasons.

Yes, I have seen the same pictures. It is another cause for suspicion, but we are unlikely ever to really know.

To the experienced homicide detectives, there were two points that immediately stuck out:

• There was no evidence that the victim struggled. It is normal for the self preservation instinct to kick in even when someone is trying to commit suicide. The most likely explanation is that the victim was unconscious when hung.
• The difficulty of balancing on the rail, placing the noose over his head, and then tying his hands behind his back while (according to reports) extremely intoxicated.

None of this proves anything 100%.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

No, it has not been officially explained. Those with any imagination can well understand though. At the time, they were fully under the control of their torturers, and had been warned of dire consequences if they tried to declare their innocence.

Now you explain. Why have they both been steadfast in their declarations of innocence once assured of protection?

You think you will cast doubt by asking this question?

The vast majority of people believe migrants workers (the B2 being part of them) have been threatened and hurt in the process of finding scapegoats, there are reports and pictures of burn skin.

Don't you think they were scared in prison and threatened as well, they retracted when they felt they could as the media was covering it extensively, something happening to them would have been too suspicious and they were then "safer" (a convenient "suicide" was kind of expected at the beginning).

I think you should put yourself in their shoes one minute (but I don't think you would) and imagine yourself trapped for months even if you haven't done anything else than having a few smokes not far from the scene of a totally inhumane crime. I strongly believe these two young guys with no prior problem with the law didn't do it, it took more people ( I should say beasts not people) to savagely murder these two young innocent tourists.

I don't understand how some of you can believe the B2 did it, so strongly so that you have to spend so much time in this forum trying to make it look like the vast majority isn't on the "conspiracy theory" (lol) side...

Actually police were not part of this meeting and it is the same meeting where the accused had no problem saying police had abused them. Seems kind of odd they had no problem with speaking of police abuse done to them but not saying they didn't commit a capital crime instead of confirming they did do it.

Edited July 22, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[arfurcrown]

I am intrigued by the support of certain people for the fact that the accused are actually guilty of the offences for which they are charged.

Now why would this be I ask?

A vested interest in business affairs on the island legal or not, covering up for the persons who are still running free after their criminal acts or a great fear of being exposed for what these supporters really are?

Very strange how the one key person to the whole affair was allowed to leave the island and vanish into the depths of Italy as was the last known whereabouts of the ''lynch pin'' in this matter.

''Lynch pin'' being a very appropriate name tag for that character who is certainly compounding the ''Lynch law'' trial concerning the two Burmese men..

[pinkpanther99]

So looks like today's proceedings will start without any translators with many of them being scared off the case. Disgusting.

[JohnThailandJohn]

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids.

Just to clarify ... So they Thai government is only concerned with looking good and not tarnishing the image of the country or people but Myanmar, one of the worst human right violators, is only concerned with truth and justice? This is the same country where the military commonly uses rape as a means to control its own people.

[fab99]

So looks like today's proceedings will start without any translators with many of them being scared off the case. Disgusting.

Yes, to paraphrased johnthailandjohn, It sure "seems kind of odd"...

Any comment about these 18 translators all scared of working for western media gb, jdn, jtj? Is there any way to spin this your way? Be creative....

[GOLDBUGGY]

So if only 5 are what you called "Facts" then I gather the rest is just Bull-shit then and I will throw them in the Bull-shit Pile.

Okay? Lets' check Your "Facts"

Sniffer Dogs?

I can't see what the Sniffer Dogs would do on the beach, besides having a good Poopoo, when the Crime Scene is covered in 2 feet of water after the Tide came in.

Mon on the crime scene?

The Media Reported the bodies were discovered by beach cleaners, but if it was the gardener no difference, as they both would have worked for Mon and his hotel or the bar.

Now if some excited migrant worker came running to you all excited and said in broken English he found bodies on the beach what would you do? Well before I would call the Police and possibly make a fool out of myself.I would go and look for myself first. Which I gather this is what he would do also.

Since the bodies were behind rocks, he would need to enter the crime scene to see for himself. Or do you think a partial blind migrant beach cleaner, or gardener would call the Police before he talked to his boss first, who he knew was nearby?

Allowed People to handle evidence without rubber gloves?

The only instances I can think of is first the the Hoe. The gardener went to get his hoe as he needed it. He did not know it could be a possible murder weapon at that time so he handled it the same way as he always did. This does not qualify that they allowed him to do this. He just did what he normally did each day. I believe it was Mon and the Police who asked the Gardener to put on gloves before returning the hoe, which contradicts your "Fact" also.

David Millers Body was perhaps the second instance and handled without gloves. I don't no for sure. But either way I don't see much choice they had then. The Tide was coming in and they either had to move him or risk that he would be swept away, and taken out to sea. If there is more it will be answered in you next "Fact".

Didn't have qualified people doing Forensics?

If you mean the crime scene I already explained that in an early post but for you I will give you the shorter version.

People here tend to like to compare this case to a case involving the FBI investigating a case in New York City, or Scotland Yard in London. What they tend to forget is that these double murders and rape took place on a small remote island that has a population of about 2,000 People and a Total Police Force of 5 people.

How much training do you think they have in securing a Crime Scene and if so how long ago? How many Double Murders and Rapes do you think they handle every year? What is the size of their S.W.A.T. Team on the Island? The highest ranking Police Officer on the Island was on the stand and when asked by the Defense he said he was involved with 2 rapes but not including a murder in his Life-time. That should indicate the rest of the Police Men and there experience.

How long would it take to get a Profession Investigative Team together in Bangkok, with approval from the higher ups, plus all the equipment and supplies you are going to need? Then get from Bangkok to a remote island and unload everything then get to the Crime Scene? Have they even a place for them to all stay that night and sleep? Would you go if you had to sleep in the Jungle? Would you send your men to do that?

My point is Professional help was a long way off and since the Tide was coming in they had to do something quickly or risk losing all the evidence and maybe even the bodies. That is also why they asked for help from ordinary people. But then you would probably think all this was all staged to.

Lied about DNA?

They never did and that has never been proven anywhere, so this is not a "Fact" at all. So I will just throw that one in the Bull-shit Pile.

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

You are making a lot of assumptions here which you do not know if they did or did not happen. The first WRONG one is you saying I brought Mons' name up. I did no such thing! I was asked by another poster here how I could explain certain things (which you deleted out) about Mon. If you are going to twist what has been written here then I have no interest in discussions with you on that subject.

If this was however an accidental mistake then lets' step back a few paces. You said low tide at 7:30 am and high tide at 3 pm. So 7 hours and 30 minutes from low tide to high tide. So lets put some times together here.

The bodies was reported by the media to have been found by a beach cleaner at around 6:30 am. What is the next logical thing to do once that happens and you are this cleaner? Well, I would gather you would want to report this, but to who? The Police, who may question your whereabouts that night, or your boss? I would go with My Boss (Mon).

So where would Mon most likely be at 6:30 am? In bed still perhaps? Awake and having his first cup of coffee? So now this beach cleaner has to go and find him. Is he in his hotel already or is he at home? But if you are with me so far he sooner or later finds him, tells him what he saw. As mentioned already, and if I was the Boss, I would want to see that for myself. Who knows for sure that this wasn't just some beached up dauphin, which this migrant worker saw?

So you go to the Crime Scene and witness these bodies for yourself. Now what? Well I gather you would want to get the Police involved at this stage and call them. Did you bring your mobile Phone with you, or did you forget it in all this excitement and have to go back and get it? So you contact the Police and an Officer comes to investigate. Because the Boss was still waiting there to show him the location he sees the dead bodies to. Now what?

Well, if I was this officer I would now want to call my Superior and ask instructions on what to do, then wait for him to show up to. What time are we looking at now? It is reported by the media that the Police Man in charge moved David from the sea on fear it might get washed away as the tide was coming in. Since low tide was 7:30 am then it would have had to been past this time. So shall we call this 8 am or 9 am?

Does the Police Man in charge have the authority to call in a Special Investigative Team from Bangkok. I would think he would need a higher rank than this. So now he would have to call his Superior on perhaps the next island over, and he to might want to see the Crime Scene to first. So now he is off to the Island, then call his Superior in Bangkok to get approval to send out a Special Investigative Team with supplies, and perhaps even tents to sleep in on the beach.

My point is that organizing something like this takes time. A lot of time. It is not just one simple telephone call away. Many people have to get involved first. The location is remote and the Police there are not specialists in dealing with crimes like this. There was no urgency to fly everyone in on a helicopter. The dead bodies aren't going anywhere.

So there was no way they could do this before 3 pm anyway, and high tide. Even if they could, who is to say that even at half tide, say 10:30 am that the Crime Scene may be completely covered in water already? Do you know that for sure? So the way I see it the Local Police were forced to make the best out of a bad situation and before all the evidence would have been washed away and out to sea, including the bodies.