Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[GOLDBUGGY]

I understand your point. To me if you have 2 exact DNA Samples, and there is a discrepancy in these samples, then obviously someone made a mistake. In this case I would call for new testing under the watchful eye of a Neutral Party. You can't release everyone from Prison just because somewhere along the line, through millions of DNA testing, based on someone made a mistake somewhere.

But lets talk about these "Discrepancies" with this DNA. What are they? The UK Investigative Team where allowed into Thailand to observe only! They were not allowed to take evidence home, or DNA Samples of the accused. So how can there be a discrepancy in the DNA of the Cigarette Butt, when they don't have the accused DNA to compare?

This news was brought forward be the Defense Team. Like most of the Media we have been reading this past few months. Is it not their job to cause confusion? Because with confusion you also cause doubt. As far as I can see they have done a good job with the media and both of these. So we will see what really unfolds in this trial.

The victims' bodies were sent back to UK before the B2 were arrested. I would imagine that the British would have examined the bodies for foreign DNA.

It is a simple matter for the defense team to collect DNA from the B2 (presumably during one of many visits) and to have their DNA compared against whatever foreign DNA was collected from the victims' bodies.

Thus assuming that foreign DNA was recovered and none of it matched the suspects' DNA, that could be considered a discrepancy.

I agree! But as you pointed out correctly, they need to get DNA Sample from the accused before they can do this and make a comparison. This is exactly my point to .

So how can you have a "Discrepancy" now between the UK DNA Collected , and the Thai DNA Collected, when they don't have the B2 Sample yet to compare?

[sgtsabai]

That one million baht will not be enough to keep one alive. I've a friend who lived there many years and knew one of the defendents. He and his farang girlfriend have moved to another country.

[Jimlove]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

I agree, completely. This trial is a face savings exercise.

Sure we can call it that even tho RTP and the Justice System have no face left to save ...

Its a Little like when muslims commit their disgusting "Honor-killings" - e.g. murder a daughter that have a boyfriend her parents dont like ... There is no honor to loose here for the parents since they didnt have any from the start ...

This case will show an ugly Thailand that for sure will make many people choose another Holiday destination and good for that !

[StealthEnergiser]

15 September 2014

Island On Lockdown After Gruesome Murder of British Tourists

The bodies were found at around 6.20 am by a group of Burmese workers who were cleaning the beach, Pol.Maj.Gen. Kiattipong said.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410787768&section=00

Its interesting that the police have not called the cleaners in as their first witnesses seeing that they were first on the scene , the defence should make sure police are telling the truth and the cleaners and police phones checked to verify.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am not on any war path! What ever gave you that idea UpYours?

[arrowsdawdle]

That would not appear to be unexpected.

[IslandLover]

Personally I don't buy this "we were tortured into confessing" c&%#p. They would have to do a lot more to me than just a few slaps to get a confession which would certainly mean the gallows or life in jail. Flaying or removing body parts comes to mind. The Burmese boys looked pretty healthy to me after the alleged "torture".

Well good for you, that you're so tough to not break under physical and psychological torture. Not all of us are so tough. The session started with threats - to the boys - that they were illegals and would suffer for that. It was not until 2 months later that it was proven, at the first arraignment before the judge, that they were legally in Thailand.

At the 'safe house' the boys were also told that a broken bottle was used as a weapn, so they admitted to that also. Even though no mention of a bottle or broken glass was made prior to that interrogation, and of course, no glass was found at the site. The non-professional translator was mentioned (afterwards by the boys) as the scariest of all the elder men in the room. The translator broached the broken glass ruse. He could have shouted at the boys that a 3 headed eagle was involved, and the boys would have agreed to that also.

If you think that torture must show up in facial bruises and cuts, here's a suggestion which might disavow you of that fallacy. Come on down to my basement sometime. I've got a few tools and devices which can get you singing Louie Louie in a very high register, while licking my boots, ....and there won't be any bruises or cuts shown on your upper body the next day.

From the U.K. Telegraph newspaper yesterday, July 7, 2015:

“They slapped me first, then they put three plastic bags over my head. They started punching me in the face and chest, shouting that we had killed them,” Zaw Lin told the Telegraph at the Samui District Prison, where he and Wai Phyo are being held because Koh Tao is too small to have either a jail or a court.

“I was so hot and I couldn’t breathe well. I was very afraid, so I said, ‘Yes, I did it’. I only said it because I was so scared.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11724506/Controversial-trial-of-alleged-killers-of-British-backpackers-to-start-in-Thailand.html

[arrowsdawdle]

15 September 2014

Island On Lockdown After Gruesome Murder of British Tourists

The bodies were found at around 6.20 am by a group of Burmese workers who were cleaning the beach, Pol.Maj.Gen. Kiattipong said.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1410787768&section=00

Its interesting that the police have not called the cleaners in as their first witnesses seeing that they were first on the scene , the defence should make sure police are telling the truth and the cleaners and police phones checked to verify.

Oh, you thought this trial was to find out who did it? Silly notion. New to Thailand?

[chickenslegs]

I understand your point. To me if you have 2 exact DNA Samples, and there is a discrepancy in these samples, then obviously someone made a mistake. In this case I would call for new testing under the watchful eye of a Neutral Party. You can't release everyone from Prison just because somewhere along the line, through millions of DNA testing, based on someone made a mistake somewhere.

But lets talk about these "Discrepancies" with this DNA. What are they? The UK Investigative Team where allowed into Thailand to observe only! They were not allowed to take evidence home, or DNA Samples of the accused. So how can there be a discrepancy in the DNA of the Cigarette Butt, when they don't have the accused DNA to compare?

This news was brought forward be the Defense Team. Like most of the Media we have been reading this past few months. Is it not their job to cause confusion? Because with confusion you also cause doubt. As far as I can see they have done a good job with the media and both of these. So we will see what really unfolds in this trial.

The victims' bodies were sent back to UK before the B2 were arrested. I would imagine that the British would have examined the bodies for foreign DNA.

It is a simple matter for the defense team to collect DNA from the B2 (presumably during one of many visits) and to have their DNA compared against whatever foreign DNA was collected from the victims' bodies.

Thus assuming that foreign DNA was recovered and none of it matched the suspects' DNA, that could be considered a discrepancy.

I agree! But as you pointed out correctly, they need to get DNA Sample from the accused before they can do this and make a comparison. This is exactly my point to .

So how can you have a "Discrepancy" now between the UK DNA Collected , and the Thai DNA Collected, when they don't have the B2 Sample yet to compare?

For the purposes of proving that the DNA samples were or were not a match to the B2 it would not be necessary to obtain DNA samples from them directly.

We all carry the DNA of our parents. Samples obtained from the parents would be sufficient.

I am not suggesting that this has happened.

[maoro2013]

Statement: Defence Lawyers Team, Koh Tao Case

KOH SAMUI:-- A team of defence lawyers assumed responsibility for this case in the name of the Lawyers Council of Thailand as this appeared to be a situation where the accused had been tortured to confess to the crimes they are accused of.

The accused in this case are migrant workers but all their basic human rights for access to justice as the accused and defendants in a criminal case should be respected.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand expects justice to be achieved for all parties to this case and is working to ensure the truth is revealed. The Lawyers Council of Thailand is confident that the mechanisms of the justice system including prosecution officials, defence lawyers and the court itself will be able to ensure that the United Kingdom, Myanmar and other countries across the world consider and accept the Thai justice system as adhering to standards of international justice.

The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyones expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation.

Mr. Nakhon Chomphuchat

Koh Samui

8th July 2015

"The Lawyers Council of Thailand hopes that both domestic and international media will cooperate in reporting the truth in this case in a correct manner, in a way that respects the deceased and their families and in such a way as to ensure justice for all parties to the case in accordance with everyones expectations. I would like to thank the media in advance for your cooperation."

That's very rich of them to say when the defense team, and their proxies, have been busy for months disseminating and encouraging all sort of speculation and rumor mongering to hold the trial "on the court of public opinion" directly in opposition with the stated wishes from the victim's families.

[Scott]

A post containing profanity has been removed along with numerous replies.

[Broeno]

This show trial is supported till the top of the Thai Authorities, including the PM.

Thailand can not lose face till that level. So i guess it never will be cleared up the way, and who sticked this together.

I'm affraid they find a way out that has nothing to do with what really happend.

[Pesche]

Maybe I'm ignorant and stupid!

However I express my very deep sorrow as I DO NOT understand WHY such unspeakable murder case takes bloody 10 months to come to court!

What an unspeakable pain for the families...

What an unspeakable suffering and humiliation for the so called "suspects'...

Doubts! Too many doubts about the way this case is handled...

My very humble opinion

[arrowsdawdle]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

I agree, completely. This trial is a face savings exercise.

Sure we can call it that even tho RTP and the Justice System have no face left to save ...

Its a Little like when muslims commit their disgusting "Honor-killings" - e.g. murder a daughter that have a boyfriend her parents dont like ... There is no honor to loose here for the parents since they didnt have any from the start ...

This case will show an ugly Thailand that for sure will make many people choose another Holiday destination and good for that !

Unlikely optimism. The case is more likely to get muddled up in Thainess then buried in blank stares and fake smiles.

[arrowsdawdle]

Maybe I'm ignorant and stupid!

However I express my very deep sorrow as I DO NOT understand WHY such unspeakable murder case takes bloody 10 months to come to court!

What an unspeakable pain for the families...

What an unspeakable suffering and humiliation for the so called "suspects'...

Doubts! Too many doubts about the way this case is handled...

My very humble opinion

You are obviously unfamiliar with Thailand. Justice as usual in the land of fake smiles.

[arrowsdawdle]

This show trial is supported till the top of the Thai Authorities, including the PM.

Thailand can not lose face till that level. So i guess it never will be cleared up the way, and who sticked this together.

I'm affraid they find a way out that has nothing to do with what really happend.

You are clearly familiar with Thailand because this post nails it.

[BoristheBlade]

At the end of the day two young people were brutally murdered.

Will Thailand sit back and allow 2 more young lives be taken, in the full knowledge they are scapegoats.?

Even a hard nosed, arrogant General must know his and Thailand's reputation is on the line, is he prepared to let this charade to end in the most evil of ways....ie Burmese being found guilty and executed?

The real perpetrators are known, but will NEVER face justice in a court, but please don't destroy the lives of another 2 innocents young men and their families.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I understand your point. To me if you have 2 exact DNA Samples, and there is a discrepancy in these samples, then obviously someone made a mistake. In this case I would call for new testing under the watchful eye of a Neutral Party. You can't release everyone from Prison just because somewhere along the line, through millions of DNA testing, based on someone made a mistake somewhere.

But lets talk about these "Discrepancies" with this DNA. What are they? The UK Investigative Team where allowed into Thailand to observe only! They were not allowed to take evidence home, or DNA Samples of the accused. So how can there be a discrepancy in the DNA of the Cigarette Butt, when they don't have the accused DNA to compare?

This news was brought forward be the Defense Team. Like most of the Media we have been reading this past few months. Is it not their job to cause confusion? Because with confusion you also cause doubt. As far as I can see they have done a good job with the media and both of these. So we will see what really unfolds in this trial.

The victims' bodies were sent back to UK before the B2 were arrested. I would imagine that the British would have examined the bodies for foreign DNA.

It is a simple matter for the defense team to collect DNA from the B2 (presumably during one of many visits) and to have their DNA compared against whatever foreign DNA was collected from the victims' bodies.

Thus assuming that foreign DNA was recovered and none of it matched the suspects' DNA, that could be considered a discrepancy.

I agree! But as you pointed out correctly, they need to get DNA Sample from the accused before they can do this and make a comparison. This is exactly my point to .

So how can you have a "Discrepancy" now between the UK DNA Collected , and the Thai DNA Collected, when they don't have the B2 Sample yet to compare?

For the purposes of proving that the DNA samples were or were not a match to the B2 it would not be necessary to obtain DNA samples from them directly.

We all carry the DNA of our parents. Samples obtained from the parents would be sufficient.

I am not suggesting that this has happened.

No 2 DNA's Match! Not Now! Not Ever!

You can match DNA of a child to a Parent as in many ways they are close. But being close only counts when you are throwing Horse Shoes or Grenades. Being close doesn't count as Evidence in a Court of Law.

If what you said was true then many DNA Matches they have matched for Crimes could actually be the Father, or Mother, or even a Twin Brother.

[arrowsdawdle]

At the end of the day two young people were brutally murdered.

Will Thailand sit back and allow 2 more young lives be taken, in the full knowledge they are scapegoats.?

Even a hard nosed, arrogant General must know his and Thailand's reputation is on the line, is he prepared to let this charade to end in the most evil of ways....ie Burmese being found guilty and executed?

The real perpetrators are known, but will NEVER face justice in a court, but please don't destroy the lives of another 2 innocents young men and their families.

While their faux concern and going through the motions of just us attitudes will never say it, their thoughts regarding your post would be, "Why not?"

[chickenslegs]

No 2 DNA's Match! Not Now! Not Ever!

You can match DNA of a child to a Parent as in many ways they are close. But being close only counts when you are throwing Horse Shoes or Grenades. Being close doesn't count as Evidence in a Court of Law.

If what you said was true then many DNA Matches they have matched for Crimes could actually be the Father, or Mother, or even a Twin Brother.

GOLDBUGGY,

You misunderstand me.

We all have 50% of our mother's DNA and 50% of our father's DNA. If you take a sample from each parent and compare it to a DNA sample from the scene of a crime it will be apparent whether or not the child of those parents could be a possible match.

I am not suggesting that the child will have identical DNA to that of either parent.

[sambum]

If I had to make a guess based upon what I have read- they will be convicted in the initial court and then set free after the appeal.

I agree, completely. This trial is a face savings exercise.

Totally agree.

Yup!

[sambum]

I wonder why the UK did not make the reports from the UK coppers that went over. The UK government keeping Thai authorities happy by saying nothing. The court case should be held a long way away.

Will be a white wash I am thinking.

I would guess that this was part of the agreement for the UK Investigative Team to be allowed in Thailand to observe. You wouldn't want the shoe on the other foot and have a Thai Investigative Team be allowed into the UK to observe and ongoing case, then come home and spill the beans to the Media, would you?

In Canada, the Police will only mention the accused name, and what he is charged with, and what crime he is accused of committing. They never discuss evidence they have or details although they may say they feel they have a strong case against him. I think this is standard protocol. But in this case it seems they were allowed by there Superiors, to discuss this case with the Victims Families.

And in Thailand, this is the type of statement that the Deputy Chief Spokesman for the Royal Thai Police makes:- "I think we did a pretty good job of sealing the crime scene, although we have a limited number of officers on Koh Tao and so local volunteers helped".

I believe the topic we were on was to discuss why the UK Police did not disclose to the public what they found.

You are obviously on a different topic altogether.

I believe you were quoting what the Police would mention in their statements in Canada. I was quoting an example of what the Police in Thailand mention in their statements.

[jabis]

Personally I don't buy this "we were tortured into confessing" c&%#p. They would have to do a lot more to me than just a few slaps to get a confession which would certainly mean the gallows or life in jail. Flaying or removing body parts comes to mind. The Burmese boys looked pretty healthy to me after the alleged "torture".

Sooo, electrical shock to your testicles, or water boarding, and things such as that wouldn't bother you in the least, right? God, what a Manley Man you must be!

On the other hand, I spent 20 years as a U.S. Marine, and I can guarantee that I know ways to torture that can make you curse your own mother for ever giving birth to you, make you admit to being the man on the grassy knoll in the Kennedy assassination, make you confess to being the mastermind behind the 9/11 attack, and - (here's the important part, so pay attention) - not leave a single bruise or mark on your body, tough guy.

I thought that all it takes is the SEAL pre-training bootcamp - lol

On topic, I'm glad to see the trial getting on finally.

[boomerangutang]

But from your post I see it is you who is fixated on accusing the Head Man and his Family no matter what truth they find or come out.

Are you dislexic? All I've written many posts on this topic - relates to wanting truth and justice. Not Thai style justice, but verifiable no-stone-unturned justice. If the Headman's family members are cleared in a viable way, fine. I and everyone else who doubted them should leave them completely alone. I'll even publish a public apology. However, in the view of many observers, there are dozens of gaping issues regarding their culpability - which haven't been addressed. Either that, or such implicating things have been hidden, trashed, not looked for, altered, or explained falsely.

[boomerangutang]

"so let us stop talking falsely, as the hour is getting late!"

from the song; 'All Along The Watchtower' by Bob Dylan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Each day that rolls by, is a day closer to execution, if the 2 boys are found guilty.

If the 2 boys didn't do it, then each day is an added day of freedom for the really bad guys who committed the crime, to continue to roam free, knowing they're untouchable.

[worgeordie]

Personally I don't buy this "we were tortured into confessing" c&%#p. They would have to do a lot more to me than just a few slaps to get a confession which would certainly mean the gallows or life in jail. Flaying or removing body parts comes to mind. The Burmese boys looked pretty healthy to me after the alleged "torture".

All it would take is a plastic bag over your head for a few minutes, and you would be squealing like a pig.

try it and see.and leaves no marks/

regards worgeordie

[USNret]

Ruling expected tomorrow on whether DNA evidence in British backpacker murders can be retested by an independent laboratory. #kohtao

Not sure if this would help. By now, I'm sure the evidence matches the DNA of the two hapless defendants.

[Muirton]

Personally I don't buy this "we were tortured into confessing" c&%#p. They would have to do a lot more to me than just a few slaps to get a confession which would certainly mean the gallows or life in jail. Flaying or removing body parts comes to mind. The Burmese boys looked pretty healthy to me after the alleged "torture".

How can you live in the LOS, even in a BKK condo, and not know the Thai Police are as good as many in the world at not leaving visible evidence of torture. Are you really that ignorant? A young Burmese came to my house once straight from a Thai Police station in shock -- but there wasn't a mark on him.

[Muirton]

Having sat on an American jury- Evidence samples/DNA are logged and a chain of custody established by date, time and person. If that chain is broken- that leads the jury to wonder why and what happened. The chain of custody is an important part of any evidence. Now whether the RTP use this method is unknown to me but if they don't all evidence becomes suspect as no one knows who handled it and why. I wish we could see the actual trial transcripts.

As an American lawyer I can tell you that if the chain of custody is disrupted, usually the evidence never makes it to the jury. The rules of evidence allow the Judge to exclude evidence that lacks a proper foundation. The problem with this case is that police and third parties had the ability to plant evidence at the crime scene. A real investigation would have closed off the scene and documented the location of evidence with photos. I have serious doubts as to whether items of evidence, like cigarette butts with the defendant's DNA traces on them, were actually part of the original crime scene.

You make the excellent point that Thai Police were in control of "evidence" at all times. Control means the ability to destroy evidence and to create it. Is there an official Department for the Manufacture of Evidence within Thai Police?

[Muirton]

I am also quite curious as to what would be the motive of these 2 young men to attack a foreign man and woman, then rape and commit murder.. In the West, a legal team would hire their own detective/investigator to look into the background of the accused, any police records and trace their movements for the whole week . Also, every possible witness or anyone remotely connected with this case would have been interviewed separately from the police and detailed profiles established. It would surprise me if any of this was done.

Is not Rape Motive enough?

The Motive for Murder in this case would be to cover up their crime, and thus leave no eye witnesses. They are also charged with Robbery, which is self explanatory, and Immigration Violations.

I tend to agree that it does seem a bit odd that to commit a crime like this you would think they would have committed some violent crime somewhere else. But this would not be the first time it happened. Every Serial Killer started first somewhere!

But instead of tracing there movement on the island for the past week, I would try to trace them from the day they arrived there. Who knows what they could find from other DNA they may have collected from other crimes?

"Who knows what they could find from other DNA they may have collected from other crimes?" It's not urgent, but you need to see a mental health expert if you write stuff like this.