House-ownership and Tabian Baan issues

[Catweazel]

Building a house on my wife's land (usufruct in place). Building-permission states my name only.

Question: what more do I need to claim ownership of the house? Or is the building-permission the only document needed in Thailand?

Went to apply for Tabian Baan. Was told that my wife first has to apply for a Blue Tabian Baan, mentioning her as the owner, after which I can apply for the Yellow version. Sounds strange to me. First of all, she is not the owner, does not want to be either. Secondly, any document that mentions her as 'owner' might be used against me if she would die before me, forcing me to sell etc.

Question: Anyone else gone through the motions of getting Tabian Baan, mentioning the farang as owner of the property?

Any help and information would be appreciated!

[swissie]

A Tabien Baan has nothing to do with any sort of ownership. It just indicates "this is where I live". Nothing more, nothing less.

In Europe, there are no "Housebooks", but you must register at the place of your residence, in return you will receive a nice peace of paper, confirming that you live there. In Thailand, the exactly same thing is called a Tabien Baan. Has nothing to do with any "Property-Rights".

Cheers.

[Langsuan Man]

First of all the usefruct is only going to protect you from your wife's relatives if she should die, and will also prevent the Thai inheritance law from forcing you to sell the property within one year of her death. But it will not protect you from her, in the event of a divorce, since it becomes community property and it's disposition will be subject to Thai Civil code dealing with divorce

Secondly, the procedure that you describe is correct, a blue book must be issued first since that is what establishes the physical address of the house and is required to obtain permanent electricity and municipal water

Lastly, if the yellow book is easy to get from your local amphur go ahead and get it but don't think that it will work miracles. Can be used for proof of address for annual extensions, at some Land Transport offices for renewal of 5 year license, and to register a motor vehicle, and is required if you are seeking permanent residency. Only the last is the real benefit since the first two can be obtained with a utility bill or residence certificate obtained at Immigration (cheap) or your Embassy (expensive)

The building permit just covers you in the case of an inspection of the work site (extremely rare) and can be used to obtain "temporary" water and electricity at the building site since it will give a location. Can also be used to bolster your claim for 50% community property for the house

[blackcab]

^^^ Precisely.

[CNXTim]

Why not post this to the "ask a lawyer" service on Thai Visa? Be interesting to see the answer.

[stgrhe]

First of all the usefruct is only going to protect you from your wife's relatives if she should die, and will also prevent the Thai inheritance law from forcing you to sell the property within one year of her death. But it will not protect you from her, in the event of a divorce, since it becomes community property and it's disposition will be subject to Thai Civil code dealing with divorce

Secondly, the procedure that you describe is correct, a blue book must be issued first since that is what establishes the physical address of the house and is required to obtain permanent electricity and municipal water

Lastly, if the yellow book is easy to get from your local amphur go ahead and get it but don't think that it will work miracles. Can be used for proof of address for annual extensions, at some Land Transport offices for renewal of 5 year license, and to register a motor vehicle, and is required if you are seeking permanent residency. Only the last is the real benefit since the first two can be obtained with a utility bill or residence certificate obtained at Immigration (cheap) or your Embassy (expensive)

The building permit just covers you in the case of an inspection of the work site (extremely rare) and can be used to obtain "temporary" water and electricity at the building site since it will give a location. Can also be used to bolster your claim for 50% community property for the house

All the above is correct but it doesn't answer OP's question. What you have to do to legally separate the ownership of the dwelling (house) from the land.

As a general rule, the owner of the land becomes the owner of the things fixed to, or forming a body with the land (section 139 Civil and Commercial Code). However, buildings as distinct from its land (the land must be N.S.3, N.S.3.G, N.S.4.J titled land), are a form of immovable property (Supreme Court) that can be owned separate from its land. The owner of the building does not have to be the same as the owner of the land. The owner of a building may also be a foreigner. Foreigners may not own the land freehold, they may own the building built upon the land freehold.

The procedure for a new build is as follows:

• If buying from a developer (depending on the sale and tax structure and liabilities the developer chooses) the sale of a house is either by
  • (1) a sale and purchase agreement; or
  • (2) a construction contract with a building permit in the purchaser's name. The sale and purchase agreement as offered by the developer must be followed by a land office sale agreement signed and administrated at the land office.
• In case an individual person is developing a plot of land the building permit issued in the name of that person, and administrated at the land office, will be proof of ownership.
• Sale of an existing building requires the current owner (as registered at the land office in a previous sale agreement or building permit) and the purchaser to sign a land office sale agreement (issued by and signed at the land office), followed by a public announcement/ posting of the sale for 30 days before transfer is allowed. The land office issues 4 copies of the 30-day announcement to be put up at specific locations. The transfer of a building will take at least 30 days, but usually 40-days. The 30 day period is to see if anyone wishes to contest the ownership over the house.

A Right of Superficies (a better alternative than usufruct in your case OP) further specifies the rights of the owner of the building towards the land, meaning the term and could include a clause stating what should happen to the house when the right to possess the land (lease and/ or the right of superficies) ends.

The Right of Superficies is a transferable and inheritable interest in land giving for a specified term the right to own or acquire buildings construction in, on or above the land owned by another. The Right of Superficies does not give the exclusive right of possession and use of the land, therefore, the right of superficies should be combined with a land lease. The rights of superficies is a real right interest in land (opposite to personal rights), meaning it will follow the freehold title of the land and is enforceable against third parties.

If the building is an existin one the procedure of separating the ownerships is still possible but somewhat more complicated. Regrettably I do not have the details so see a good property solicitor.

[SOTIRIOS]

...why don't they just make it crystal lcear.....

..this happens maybe thousands of times a year....

...for countless years now....

...and people here still get away with murder.....

...write the bloody law so that it can be understood...followed...applied...and enforced....once and for all.....

[little mary sunshine]

You can pay 100% of the cost of the house,

Most you will ever get in a divorce is 50%

After the divorce, if there is one, have it

burned down....You, of course, will be

Visiting friends in another city when the

Unfortunate fire starts

[bangkoklawyer24]

All the above is correct but it doesn't answer OP's question. What you have to do to legally separate the ownership of the dwelling (house) from the land.

As a general rule, the owner of the land becomes the owner of the things fixed to, or forming a body with the land (section 139 Civil and Commercial Code). However, buildings as distinct from its land (the land must be N.S.3, N.S.3.G, N.S.4.J titled land), are a form of immovable property (Supreme Court) that can be owned separate from its land. The owner of the building does not have to be the same as the owner of the land. The owner of a building may also be a foreigner. Foreigners may not own the land freehold, they may own the building built upon the land freehold.

...

. Regrettably I do not have the details so see a good property solicitor.

This template has been posted already six years ago, has been and still is just half correct and extremely misleading. It makes a huge difference to have a superficies and to have not. The superficies rules in the CCC do not at all "further specify" the rights in the case that no superficies is in place.

[Boycie]

Why not post this to the "ask a lawyer" service on Thai Visa? Be interesting to see the answer.

"As a foreigner, you are not allowed to own property"

[GOLDBUGGY]

This is what I just did also expect on existing property.

In order to get a Unufruct you needed to get that from the owner. If it is your wife, which I expect, then she owns this property. Your Unufruct only allows you the right to live their and use this property as you choose. You could even rent it out or lease it out, if you found someone who you could do this with.

If your Unufruct is registered at the Land Titles Office, nobody should be able to put a lien on the property, like a mortgage. By law nobody should be able to kick you out of there even if your wife dies either. If you inherit this property after you wife's death then legally you would be requires to sell it in a certain time frame, as foreigners are not allowed to own land.

The only exception is of course through a Divorce, where this becomes part of the joint assets of the marriage. In this case you may have to sell it to split 50-50 or find another way to settle this. , .

[bangkoklawyer24]

This is what I just did also expect on existing property.

In order to get a Unufruct you needed to get that from the owner. If it is your wife, which I expect, then she owns this property. Your Unufruct only allows you the right to live their and use this property as you choose. You could even rent it out or lease it out, if you found someone who you could do this with.

If your Unufruct is registered at the Land Titles Office, nobody should be able to put a lien on the property, like a mortgage. By law nobody should be able to kick you out of there even if your wife dies either. If you inherit this property after you wife's death then legally you would be requires to sell it in a certain time frame, as foreigners are not allowed to own land.

The only exception is of course through a Divorce, where this becomes part of the joint assets of the marriage. In this case you may have to sell it to split 50-50 or find another way to settle this. , .

And if you like to read more about the unufruct, or however this beast is called, you can do so at http://linkd.in/1LQ9xlK

[sanuk711]

Building a house on my wife's land (usufruct in place).---OP

Was it your wife's land before you married ???

If not-& you divorce, your even further up a certian creek ---without a paddle...............

** The usufruct will give you the right to live there for life----what more is it you are looking for ??? (to take it with you)

[sometimewoodworker]

Why not post this to the "ask a lawyer" service on Thai Visa? Be interesting to see the answer.

"As a foreigner, you are not allowed to own property"

Wrong

As a non Thai you are not allowed to own land.

Property is a different case and you can own property just not the land it's on.

[nithisa78]

Forget everything you heard here and get a lawyer. You got your needed attention.

[Boycie]

Why not post this to the "ask a lawyer" service on Thai Visa? Be interesting to see the answer.

"As a foreigner, you are not allowed to own property"

Wrong

As a non Thai you are not allowed to own land.

Property is a different case and you can own property just not the land it's on.

I agree. I also wanted to write the same as yourself, to the above topic i linked, but unfortunately no replies are allowed in Ask the Lawyer forum.

It's a great job that Somsak Lawyer does in answering TV members questions for free, but sometimes after reading replies i'm even more confused

[Liquorice]

My friend has an unusual situation.

He and his wife owned land and a house (all in her name).

She found out she was terminally ill some months ago.

Despite that, they sold their current home and purchased new from a developer (land and house).

Sadly she passed away 2 months after they took possession.

She left a Will, bequeathing everything to her husband, but he knows he cannot own the land.

The land apparently will be placed in the hands of 4 of her sisters with a 30 year lease in my friends name.

His name alone will be on the property.

He is still continuing to pay the mortgage.

Is there anything else he should do?

[ableguy]

If you live anywhere near korat I con pass on a good lawyer, Thai lady married to an American, just bought a house new build on a usufruct , am not married to my gf but she has drawn a will up that cannot be changed if she dies before me the land and house come to me and I must sell in one year, it does not go to her family.

[Liquorice]

Cheers ableguy, but he's already got an English speaking lawyer.

I've advised him to get any Thai documents translated into English first, before he signs anything.

[ableguy]

My friend has an unusual situation.

He and his wife owned land and a house (all in her name).

She found out she was terminally ill some months ago.

Despite that, they sold their current home and purchased new from a developer (land and house).

Sadly she passed away 2 months after they took possession.

She left a Will, bequeathing everything to her husband, but he knows he cannot own the land.

The land apparently will be placed in the hands of 4 of her sisters with a 30 year lease in my friends name.

His name alone will be on the property.

He is still continuing to pay the mortgage.

Is there anything else he should do?

Sell the property, the four sisters can borrow money from a bank with the land as surety,they don't pay the money back the bank reclaims the land and you friends thirty year lease don't mean a thing, he is out on his ass , advice from my lawyer who told me this thirty year lease deal is so insecure she refused to do it forme ,bless her.

[Liquorice]

My friend has an unusual situation.

He and his wife owned land and a house (all in her name).

She found out she was terminally ill some months ago.

Despite that, they sold their current home and purchased new from a developer (land and house).

Sadly she passed away 2 months after they took possession.

She left a Will, bequeathing everything to her husband, but he knows he cannot own the land.

The land apparently will be placed in the hands of 4 of her sisters with a 30 year lease in my friends name.

His name alone will be on the property.

He is still continuing to pay the mortgage.

Is there anything else he should do?

Sell the property, the four sisters can borrow money from a bank with the land as surety,they don't pay the money back the bank reclaims the land and you friends thirty year lease don't mean a thing, he is out on his ass , advice from my lawyer who told me this thirty year lease deal is so insecure she refused to do it forme ,bless her.

Her family don't want the land or the property.

It was purchased as a final home for my friend to live in.

With his wife now deceased, he has to register a Thai as the land owner within 12 months.

Why not 4 sisters and a lease for security.

[roath]

My friend has an unusual situation.

He and his wife owned land and a house (all in her name).

She found out she was terminally ill some months ago.

Despite that, they sold their current home and purchased new from a developer (land and house).

Sadly she passed away 2 months after they took possession.

She left a Will, bequeathing everything to her husband, but he knows he cannot own the land.

The land apparently will be placed in the hands of 4 of her sisters with a 30 year lease in my friends name.

His name alone will be on the property.

He is still continuing to pay the mortgage.

Is there anything else he should do?

Sell the property, the four sisters can borrow money from a bank with the land as surety,they don't pay the money back the bank reclaims the land and you friends thirty year lease don't mean a thing, he is out on his ass , advice from my lawyer who told me this thirty year lease deal is so insecure she refused to do it forme ,bless her.

I was under the impression that you could inherit land in which case the guy woukdnt need to sell to sisters but in any event could get an uaufruct rather than lease. Once a lease is registered it is valid regardless of whether the ownership changes hands. Your friend would appear to be misinformed

[blackcab]

If you live anywhere near korat I con pass on a good lawyer, Thai lady married to an American, just bought a house new build on a usufruct , am not married to my gf but she has drawn a will up that cannot be changed if she dies before me the land and house come to me and I must sell in one year, it does not go to her family.

Wills are seldom changed, because changes can cause problems during probate. In most cases people write a new will. Some people write a codicil.

Your girlfriend might not change her will, but what's stopping her writing a new one?

[SGX]

Set up a contractual agreement with wife have Notary sign and lodge, whereby you borrow and enter into a full loan agreement with third party for costs to build the house on her land . so worse case scenario the debt has to be payed back with dissolution of marriage etc. A friend of mine did this in Indonesia he built half a dozen condo's and stuff , used the wifes family as builders she had 51% land ownership . funny enough when the property finished along came the divorce , right on time. Conclusion Husband controlled the debt through Third Party

[SGX]

My friend has an unusual situation.

He and his wife owned land and a house (all in her name).

She found out she was terminally ill some months ago.

Despite that, they sold their current home and purchased new from a developer (land and house).

Sadly she passed away 2 months after they took possession.

She left a Will, bequeathing everything to her husband, but he knows he cannot own the land.

The land apparently will be placed in the hands of 4 of her sisters with a 30 year lease in my friends name.

His name alone will be on the property.

He is still continuing to pay the mortgage.

Is there anything else he should do?

Sell the property, the four sisters can borrow money from a bank with the land as surety,they don't pay the money back the bank reclaims the land and you friends thirty year lease don't mean a thing, he is out on his ass , advice from my lawyer who told me this thirty year lease deal is so insecure she refused to do it forme ,bless her.

Hit the sell button, buy an apartment

[catman20]

why marry in the first place ? love and marriage here is such a shame, these people cant love you like a farang woman would in the west, not that I would recommend that either. it all geared up here for the farang to always lose any of his investments or property here

[catman20]

My friend has an unusual situation.

He and his wife owned land and a house (all in her name).

She found out she was terminally ill some months ago.

Despite that, they sold their current home and purchased new from a developer (land and house).

Sadly she passed away 2 months after they took possession.

She left a Will, bequeathing everything to her husband, but he knows he cannot own the land.

The land apparently will be placed in the hands of 4 of her sisters with a 30 year lease in my friends name.

His name alone will be on the property.

He is still continuing to pay the mortgage.

Is there anything else he should do?

what about shacking up with one of the sisters ?

[fang37]

Well that is one view - an alternative

Single life - much shagging, multiple lovers, free spirit, lower cost of living, more control of destiny, flexibility

Single life v married life?

bTW, I have been in a monogamous relationship for 11 years.

[ChaJay]

Hi

Edited July 19, 2015 by ChaJay

[ChaJay]

why marry in the first place ? love and marriage here is such a shame, these people cant love you like a farang woman would in the west, not that I would recommend that either. it all geared up here for the farang to always lose any of his investments or property here

What a load of bullshit, probably based on your own pitiful experiences. You have insulted my wife, and indirectly me.

Let me assure you, we live in a colourful world, with an enormous variety of man and women (including Thai women). It says more about your colourless and fearful mind, when you talk about ' these people', then it says anything about the abilities of 'thai' woman to love like a 'farang' woman.