Thailand is Fatca pending...

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

This is true. But anybody with a marriage or retirement extension that uses the "bank balance method" is scooped up and must file. As for FATCA, foreign banks need only report accounts with balances over $50,000. But I suspect that banks like Bangkok Bank, out of an excess of caution are simply going to report every American citizen account.

So folks that keep their marriage or retirement visa extension accounts at Bangkok Bank and haven't filed an FBAR, are going to be sifted out by the computers run by Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network.

Yes, for FBAR, the 400,000 baht Thai bank deposit amount, or 800,000 baht amount, would both exceed the greater than $10,000 U.S. in foreign financial accounts threshold of FBAR, and thus trigger the FBAR filing requirement for the account owner.

On the other hand, someone meeting the Thai Immigration requirements through the monthly income or potentially also the combo bank deposits/monthly income method would NOT necessarily trigger the FBAR filing requirement, provided they didn't exceed the $10,000 threshold.

But for FATCA, the U.S. citizen/resident account holder only has a filing requirement for FATCA if they meet the much higher thresholds I posted above. I don't really care what the Thai banks do or don't report. What I need to be concerned whether is whether I myself have a FATCA filing requirement.

And, unless someone living abroad full-time has greater than $200,000 / $300,000 in foreign financial accounts for married filing separately, or $400,000 / $600,000 for married filing jointly, as I posted above, then I don't have a FATCA filing requirement.

The financial thresholds for triggering a FATCA filing requirement are pretty clear -- though the amounts vary depending on if you're residing in the U.S., where the trigger amounts are lower, or you're residing outside the U.S., where the trigger amounts fortunately are considerably higher.

The point I was trying to make and clarify above, in response to another poster, was: Not ALL U.S. citizens living abroad automatically have to file FBAR or FATCA submissions. It's ONLY those who meet the specific financial triggers as spelled out above.

Edited July 14, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Hornyskunk]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you were married to a Thai and really trusted your partner with a lot of money, couldn't you just wire all your money into her bank account and never have to worry about FBAR or FATCA or anything else? For all intents and purposes, wouldn't you be worthless bum living off your rich Thai wife, at least in the eyes of the IRS?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you were married to a Thai and really trusted your partner with a lot of money, couldn't you just wire all your money into her bank account and never have to worry about FBAR or FATCA or anything else? For all intents and purposes, wouldn't you be worthless bum living off your rich Thai wife, at least in the eyes of the IRS?

well...

1. that's not going to help any U.S. citizen here who needs to keep 400,000 or 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account in order to satisfy Thai Immigration. Because, Immigration requires those funds to be in an account belonging solely to the applicant.

and

2. If the U.S. citizen is married to a Thai person and they're filing their federal taxes as married filing jointly, then I gather, the Thai spouse with all the funds you suggest would be treated the same as a U.S. citizen in terms of filing requirements.

Then of course there's the additional question of whether your approach is a financially prudent one:

If you were married to a Thai and really trusted your partner with a lot of money,

Those kinds of adventures rarely seem to end well here....

Edited July 14, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

What constitutes a "commercial bank" in Thailand? Unlike the reports I have heard from BKK Bank, my bank has never collected anything from me. They could be reporting my name, but it doesn't mean much without my Social security number, which does not appear in my passport and which I have never given to anybody in Thailand.

Of course it would not be difficult for US Treasury to cross reference my passport number to my SS number, but I would think they would prefer to have the Thai bank disgorge the SS number.

For folks who had account before 1 Jul 14 there are different "due diligence" requirements of banks to identify U.S. persons with accounts. By "due diligence" I mean the efforts put into identifying accounts to be reported under FATCA such as only doing a computer retrieval, something fairly easy to do and not requiring any forms from the account holders. But over the coming years the "due diligence" identifications and reporting requirements get stricter for the foreign banks which will be a driver as to how and when a bank may contact you to complete some FATCA related forms for accounts opened prior to 1 Jul 14 accounts. But for accounts opened 1 Jul 14 and forward the Thai banks seem to be requiring completion of their FATCA forms from the get-go.

Neither have I been contacted about any of accounts opened pre-1 Jul 14; but for every account I have opened since 1 Jul 14 I've had to complete the FATCA forms.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Pib

[4evermaat]

The UK and other countries are watching closely. Eventually, other countries will follow suit,.

The EU has already begun restrictions. This recent blog update on Webmoney explains:

....New requirements by the guarantor of WME purse will come into force on the 15th of July 2015 in accordance with European Union legislation. To avoid service termination of the WME purse, the owners of WME purses must comply with these requirements. The requirements concern to the Age, Country of Residence of a Natural Person – the owner of WME purse, as well as the Limits on Transactions and Identification Documents.

You must be at least 18 years old if you live within the European Economic Area (EEA) or at least 14 years old if you live outside the EEA and are of legal age in your country of residence.

If the total deposits made to WME purses exceed 2500 WME during one calendar year, you must submit appropriate identification documents – a valid national passport or other ID document as well as a proof of residential address (bank statement or utility bill, no older than 3 months). If the total deposits made to all WME purses belonging to one passport exceed 15000 WME during one calendar year, it is necessary to submit a bank statement or other documents confirming the source of funds.

Please ensure that the country of residence shown on your WebMoney passport is correct. The use of WME purses is prohibited in the following countries: American Samoa, Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Ecuador, Guam, Guyana, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Laos, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Myanmar, North Korea, Northern Mariana Islands, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Somalia, Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Uganda and the USA.

If you do not fulfil these requirements, you must withdraw or exchange funds from your WME purse as the rights to use your WME purse can be limited (WME purse blocked) for incoming and outgoing transactions. The requirements come into force on 15.07.2015.

The complete list of requirements for WM EUR purses

http://wiki.wmtransfer.com/projects/webmoney/wiki/Requirements_for_WME_Purse_owners_(Natural_Persons)

It's not just banks. Many other electronic avenues for 'stored value' are being "restricted" in one form or another to prevent so-called money laundering or just keep their own citizens from speculating on/against their own currency. Keep in mind that it is a similar reason why USA residents cannot open bank or e-currency accounts in many countries. Currency control is becoming more and more important to enforce or scale Keynesian economics globally

Edited July 14, 2015 by 4evermaat

[Pib]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you were married to a Thai and really trusted your partner with a lot of money, couldn't you just wire all your money into her bank account and never have to worry about FBAR or FATCA or anything else? For all intents and purposes, wouldn't you be worthless bum living off your rich Thai wife, at least in the eyes of the IRS?

Sounds nice...but basically that's tax evasion/a FBAR reporting violation...you are just basically try to hide your money by moving it to someone else's account.

Below is partial quote from the FBAR instructions regarding Financial Interest in an account....para 2a would apply in your example since obviously your wife is "a person acting in some capacity on behave of the U.S. person (i.e., you) with respect to the account." And the later on in the instructions it gives info on how to report that foreign person's name, ID, etc., along with yours.

Financial Interest. A United States person has a financial interest in a foreign financial account for which:

1. the United States person is the owner of record or holder of legal title, regardless of whether the account is maintained for the benefit of the United States person or for the benefit of another person; or

2. the owner of record or holder of legal title is one of the following:

a. An agent, nominee, attorney, or a person acting in some other capacity on behalf of the United States person with respect to the account;

b. A corporation in which the United States person owns directly or indirectly: (i) more than 50 percent of the total value of shares of stock or (ii) more than 50 percent of the voting power of all shares of stock;

c. A partnership in which the United States person owns directly or indirectly: (i) an interest in more than 50 percent of the partnership's profits (e.g., distributive share of partnership income taking into account any special allocation agreement) or (ii) an interest in more than 50 percent of the partnership capital;

d. A trust of which the United States person: (i) is the trust grantor and (ii) has an ownership interest in the trust for United States federal tax purposes. See 26 U.S.C. sections 671-679 to determine if a grantor has an ownership interest in a trust;

e. A trust in which the United States person has a greater than 50 percent present beneficial interest in the assets or income of the trust for the calendar year; or

f. Any other entity in which the United States person owns directly or indirectly more than 50 percent of the voting power, total value of equity interest or assets, or interest in profits.

[craigt3365]

Some great info here. Thanks to all with the great replies! Being a recovering ex-tax accountant, I hate this stuff! 5555

[Misty]

Meanwhile it seems the penalties for noncompliance aren't getting any smaller:

Swiss Accounts Facing 50% IRS Penalties Balloon to 26 Banks

[Time Traveller]

If your marriage is not legal, then agreed, your partner does not have to worry about this. FACTA is only for US citizens.

Seems Europe is heading down this same road soon. The law, IIRC, is primarily oriented towards money laundering. And of course tax evasion. ;-)

As an American citizen, this law has absolutely no impact on me at all. Maybe 10 minutes of my time every year.

Well good for you. You are a good law-abiding citizen. But what if you DID have something to hide? Just in case you, and others, have never bothered to think about it, let me explain.

Did you ever consider that the FBAR requirement is absolutely contrary to the protections previously guaranteed by the Fifth Amendment? It is all well and good to catch the criminals. But the Constitution conveys certain rights and protections and the Fifth Amendment, in particular, guarantees an absolute right against self-incrimination. This right has in the past been considered sacrosanct, but in the last 20-40 years, and specially since 9?/11, it has been whittled away by Congress, regulation making agencies and the courts (which are supposed to protect us from legislative excess).

If an American citizen is hiding untaxed, laundered money and files a truthful FBAR, he has just incriminated himself and will surely be prosecuted. If he files and lies on the form, he commits a serious crime. If he fails to file, he commits a crime. In the last two scenarios, he may have gone undetected in the past, but no longer with the advent of FATCA.

The hell of it is, if he/she is a law abiding taxpaying citizen and fails to file because he/she simply did not know about it, the financial consequences (fines, etc.) can be devastating. And every single one of us that uses the marriage extension with the 400K in the bank option is required to file -- even if the money is borrowed. If one intentionally fails to file because he/she believes this is an unconstitutional intrusion on privacy, the intentional failure to file becomes a serious crime. So we have otherwise law abiding, tax paying, good citizens that are now criminals and could have their lives destroyed.

Now there are a lot of shallow-thinking Americans that think there should be no protections for criminals. But these protections protect us all. The US legal system is stare decisis (precedent-based). If you bend the rules to catch a criminal, you bend the rules for everybody. Do you understand the protections the Fifth Amendment offer an law abiding citizen and why the Forefathers included them? Would you like it if the police could just stop you and search you anytime they wished? Maybe you have a pony tail, which some cop associates with illegal drugs, so he just decides to "have a look." Would you like it if the police could break into your home in the middle of the night to "have a look around" because a prowler had been reported in the neighborhood? Would you like to live in North Korea or the former Soviet Union? You compromise these protections for some and you compromise them for all; it's a very slippery slope.

Now do you understand why a real American might think these laws "un-American"? But then one has to define un-American. The accelerated trashing of the Constitution since 9/11 hasn't left much. Where is the line between "patriot" and "terrorist/criminal"? It seems to be quite blurry these days.

So go ahead and spend your ten minutes every year filing the FBAR (I do). But I hope that each time you do it, you take a minute to think about what is happening to your native country (I do that, too).

Now a real life anecdote. I personally know a guy who has lived here continuously 16 years, married, using the extension with 400K in the bank. He has been law abiding and tax paying all his life. He's never been arrested or had any trouble with the law. He doesn't read books or newspapers and is not internet savvy. He pretty much keeps to himself. He did not know anything about this FBAR business until I told him about it only a couple years ago.

I have done a lot of reading on this subject and for people wanting to "come in out of the cold" and "get legal" the IRS had an "amnesty" where they were compromising penalties and "generously" assessing only $3,000 or ino fines for unintentional failure to file. This guy has modest retirement income and live hand to mouth. If he had to hand over a $3,000 fine, he would not have enough money in the bank to get his next visa extension. He has no other home.

Now he's scared fecalless and doesn't know what to do. His primary state of mind is utter disbelief. He cannot seem to understand how he can be a criminal when he didn't do anything. He is afraid that if he starts filing, the IRS will levy a big fine (a reasonable fear) and he won't have enough money in the bank to get his next extension. But I have also explained to him that with FATCA, his bank will inform on him and a willful failure to file is a far worse crime than an unintentional failure to file. A few years ago, "I didn't know" was believable. Today, with all the publicity, the IRS rejects that as utterly unbelievable. The poor bastard is now like a deer in the headlights. I won't ask anybody here what he should do as it would be a purely rhetorical question. It's a Hobson's choice. He's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

This is an interesting argument you've put forward.

My only advice to Americans is stop voting for these Republican and Democrats that supported this law!

[Time Traveller]

Bangkok Bank has been very diligent from the gitgo in getting the forms from people. My wife opened an account in July 2014 using only her Thai ID (with no mention of her U. S. Citizenship) and she was required to sign the forms. Not sure whether it was required because of her farang last name or because it's easier for them to just get the form from everyone to cover butts.

The banks her are obsessed with paperwork anyway so what's the big deal for signing one more.

I have a friend that is a customer of BKK Bank. Every time he goes in, the asks him for another form. They have even required his Thai wife, who has never been to the US, to come in and sign FATCA papers. He bitches about it constantly, wondering how many times they will ask for the same information, the same form, over and over..

I am a customer of TMB Bank. That's redundant, of course, as it stands for Thai Military Bank Bank. In any event, I have never been asked for anything. No forms, no Social Security number, nothing. I recently clicked on their "international branches" to see where they were. Vientiane and The Cayman Islands. Hmmmm.

Banks like BKK Bank are requiring a lot of non-Americans to fill out these forms simply because they see a white face and don't want to take a chance. If they send the IRS a FATCA form on a New Zealander, no harm, but if they miss one American, they get grief. The whole thing is outrageous. All the banks of the world should unite against the US. I have heard that many Thai banks are now refusing accounts to Americans. Don't know if it is true or not.

No that's not true. Ive never been asked once by Bangkok Bank.

[craigt3365]

An interesting article to read for becoming compliant. If you're on the up and up, seems quite easy and painless to become compliant. It's those who've tried to avoid paying taxes that are in trouble.

http://www.ustax.bz/getting-back-track-overview-irs-amnesty-programs/

[JimGant]

Now a real life anecdote. I personally know a guy who has lived here continuously 16 years, married, using the extension with 400K in the bank. He has been law abiding and tax paying all his life. He's never been arrested or had any trouble with the law. He doesn't read books or newspapers and is not internet savvy. He pretty much keeps to himself. He did not know anything about this FBAR business until I told him about it only a couple years ago.

I have done a lot of reading on this subject and for people wanting to "come in out of the cold" and "get legal" the IRS had an "amnesty" where they were compromising penalties and "generously" assessing only $3,000 or ino fines for unintentional failure to file. This guy has modest retirement income and live hand to mouth. If he had to hand over a $3,000 fine, he would not have enough money in the bank to get his next visa extension. He has no other home.

Now he's scared fecalless and doesn't know what to do. His primary state of mind is utter disbelief.

Obviously you haven't done enough reading.....

As you indicate he pays all his taxes, then:

“The IRS will not impose a penalty for the failure to file the delinquent FBARs if you properly reported on your U.S. tax returns, and paid all tax on, the income from the foreign accounts reported on the delinquent FBARs and you have not been previously contacted regarding an income tax examination or a request for the delinquent returns for the years for which the delinquent FBARs are submitted.... he should not make a submission to the IRS under the OVDP [amnesty] or the Streamlined Procedures. All he needs do to comply with the law is file his delinquent FBARs."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stephendunn/2014/07/20/all-you-need-to-do-is-file-your-delinquent-fbars/

Craig's link, above, also mentions this safe harbor: “The IRS will not impose a penalty for the failure to file the delinquent FBARs if you properly reported on your U.S. tax returns, and paid all tax on, the income from the foreign accounts reported on the delinquent FBARs."

Suggest you re-brief your friend before he runs out of fecal.