Farming In Northeast Thailand

[ThaiFarmer]

The main issue I think for someone like Thai Farmer to consider before setting up such a venture is to really ask yourself "what do I want from being a farmer?" Is it maximum financial return, easiest workload for the family, best option environmentally-speaking, or do you have some other priority which you think is most important? Give us some idea of your personal philosophy in undertaking such a venture and, perhaps, I can give you some general advice that might be useful one day. I think Wash's words are very sage and he talks from the gritty end of farming, which is the best place to learn this "trade unlike any other".

Hi plachon,

You seem to have a lot of wisdom to share with us. Please feel free to do so. We (my wife and I) are so grateful for all the help and advices we can get.

These are our intensions in short :

1. We want to live a calm and pleasant country life. No stress. No enemies (if possible).

2. We want to help our Thai family to help themselves by working as farmers, shop owners, cafeteria owners or something similar. We invest our present money and they invest their knowledge and labour. As a retired I'm unfortunately not allowed to work in Thailand. Else I would! With pleasure.

3. We want a comparatively "steady" income for all of us, enough to live a comfortable (not luxury) life.

4. Some money left to put in a bank account for future investments like machines, cars, truck(s), an extra house lot or two perhaps with a new Thai style house. The family is growing and we can't live in ONE house forever. Pay everything cash. Absolutely no bank loans. Ever! I've never borrowed any money in Sweden and will certainly not start to do in Thailand!

5. The kids should have the possibility to study. One of my wife's sister's daughter's daughter has a sharp brain we can see already now. She is number one in her class. "I want to be a doctor", she says! Of course we will help her to study for being a doctor. Especially the girls needs all the help they can get. There are a lot of bright girls in Thailand who never got the chance to educate themselves because their (sometimes not so bright) brothers came in the first place.

What I DON'T mean is:

1. Buy all the land we can get around us just to show off and feel important.

2. Build "castles" here and there with a couple of BMW's and Mercedes and perhaps a private jet or a helicopter standing on the field nearby.

3. Living a sort of jet set life in the cities, having a sort of eternal vacation , travel around the world, staying in expensive hotels, buy expensive clothes and so on.

4. Buy all the gold chains we can get so we look like a "walking gold shop".

Well, I think you understand what I mean by now! Looking forward hearing from you again.

[Wash]

2. We want to help our Thai family to help themselves by working as farmers, shop owners, cafeteria owners or something similar. We invest our present money and they invest their knowledge and labour. As a retired I'm unfortunately not allowed to work in Thailand. Else I would! With pleasure.

This is a really an ambitious challenge, not that I think it is undooable, but that it has a built in problem relating to the family investing their "Knowledge and Labor" It definately is not a problem to get them to invest their labor because laziness is not part of the problem you will face in this challenge. Knowledge is the difficult one to assess.

Example: When buying the 2-3 Rai plot our house is built on I asked Papa if it was good land, and depended on his answer rather than my common sense to make our decision. He gave me an honest answer in telling me that he thought it was really good land for farming. The fact is that the land is sand and not at all good for growing anything, but from Papa's perspective ANY land is good land if it belongs to you. He has not had his own land since it was taken from him during the Viet Nam war by the Khemer. So his knowledge was greatly flawed by his perspective.

In the real rural Thailand you will not find many families with enough real knowledge to be very valuable and should more rely on your common sense in making decisions. Setting up shops and other business adventures with family members is something that will likely have to be an educational process in and of itself, knowing that they know little of what business is all about.

My advice remains to go slowly and carefully with these plans if you are not here to watch and advise on a day to day basis.

I too am in a position where it is not possible for me to work in Thailand, but find that a help and not a hinderance. I much prefer to have Thai people in our community doing the work and earning the money slowly and surely and let the community prosper that way. Making too dramatic a change in the economic status by means other than hard work is risky. The real promise that your activities can be to the community is in gainful job opportunities that are beyond what is available now.

You of course have to do it your way and that is the right way for you. I sincerely hope that your adventures prove to be as pleasant an experience as have mine. I am handicapped by the fact that we do not have huge funds from savings to make a big splash with, and on reflection think it better that we don't have such funds but must rely on our Social Security Retirement to move forward slowly but surely.

Best Wishes.

[plachon]

These are our intensions in short :

1. We want to live a calm and pleasant country life. No stress. No enemies (if possible).

2. We want to help our Thai family to help themselves by working as farmers, shop owners, cafeteria owners or something similar. We invest our present money and they invest their knowledge and labour. As a retired I'm unfortunately not allowed to work in Thailand. Else I would! With pleasure.

3. We want a comparatively "steady" income for all of us, enough to live a comfortable (not luxury) life.

4. Some money left to put in a bank account for future investments like machines, cars, truck(s), an extra house lot or two perhaps with a new Thai style house. The family is growing and we can't live in ONE house forever. Pay everything cash. Absolutely no bank loans. Ever! I've never borrowed any money in Sweden and will certainly not start to do in Thailand!

5. The kids should have the possibility to study. One of my wife's sister's daughter's daughter has a sharp brain we can see already now. She is number one in her class. "I want to be a doctor", she says! Of course we will help her to study for being a doctor. Especially the girls needs all the help they can get. There are a lot of bright girls in Thailand who never got the chance to educate themselves because their (sometimes not so bright) brothers came in the first place.

What I DON'T mean is:

1. Buy all the land we can get around us just to show off and feel important.

2. Build "castles" here and there with a couple of BMW's and Mercedes and perhaps a private jet or a helicopter standing on the field nearby.

3. Living a sort of jet set life in the cities, having a sort of eternal vacation , travel around the world, staying in expensive hotels, buy expensive clothes and so on.

4. Buy all the gold chains we can get so we look like a "walking gold shop".

Well, I think you understand what I mean by now! Looking forward hearing from you again.

Best regards,

ThaiFarmer

Hi Thai Farmer,

Thank you for such an open broadbrush assessment of your intentions on your retirement plans in Thailand. Wash has already given a good tranche of advice on some of the pitfalls to avoid in making such a big move in life. If I may, I would like to add a few other small warning flags.

Although you may perceive that you will not be showing ostentatious wealth, by not buying gold chains, Mercs and other luxury trappings, the fact remains is that you will be viewed by your neighbours as a very rich person, especially if you are intending buying as much land as you say you would like to. As such, you will be game for regular requests for assistance from less fortunate family members and other assorted locals. how you deal with these is up to you, but don't think you can hide your financial status, just by not driving a BMW! The temptation therefore, is then to exclude the neighbours and unwanted visitors by having a big wall around the house built, which further isolates your position from the community. It's a very fine line between maintaining privacy and becoming aloof in Thai rural society and you'll be judged accordingly..

Secondly, you don't state what kind of farming appeals to your own personal aesthetics, but you do state you would like a reasonable income to be able to afford a "comfortable life" and some left over for "future investments like machines, trucks, cars and an extra house lot or two". If you intend paying for these from farm-derived income, then I think you are being a little optimistic about the potential income available from such a profession. Sure, with a 300 rai dairy and beef ranch (ChokChai style!), ou could perhaps attain this, but it would require a lot of investment in knowledge, staff and infrastructure first, not to mention some rather good connections and an A1 location!

My humble advice, FWIW, is to start small and build up, given that you're a self-confessed greenhorn to farming. Read up about integrated farming and its benefits, (where all your eggs aren't in one basket), and invest first and foremost in improving the water resources on your chosen farmland, (which need not be more than 20 rai to provide a good and steady income). Read prodigiously on farming in Thailand and the sub-humid tropics in general (there's some good stuff on the Net, but it can be a problem sorting the wheat out from the chaff), before you leap in. Oh yes, plant lots of trees too and make sure they're either fruit trees, nitrogen fixers or hardwood timber trees. Avoid eucalyptus and non-native pulp trees like the plague!

And lastly, keep your main nest egg in an overseas account and rely on the interest from that, not what you think you may earn from farming or other investments over here. Nobody ever got rich from farming in Thailand, but lots of people got very rich from buying land at cheap prices and selling it at ridiculous prices later. However, none of these were farangs and the land is mostly in the hands of the wealthy already, so those strike it rich days of Chatchai on are well and truly over. Many others lost their shirts to crackpot ideas, sold to them by smooth tongued salesmen, the latest being ostrich farming!

Likewise, Good Luck!, but step very warily as you go........

[mango head]

just wanted to thank everybody again who have posted in this thread.

very good and useful information coming in. hope it continues as i would like to see this thread continue for a long time.

please keep posting any info you feel is relevant to this thread.

chok dee to all

mango head

[bina]

Hello,

i have to add a few thoughts about farming. I live on kibbutz in israel and work with thai workers here. for three years i've watched their farming methods here: we are semi arid, no water and we pay per cubic liter, rocky alkaline soil and terraces. It took them a long time to adjust to our irrigation and crop systems. now one man (an engineer from udon) is interested in a making a business in thailand for drip irrigation etc.... anyway-- no one makes lots of money from farming. for every good year, you can get three bad years which eat up all profits and cause terrible debt UNLESS you are in the agro technology type farm which is actually a corporation venture.

someone mention fruit trees and not eucylyptus... i tried explaining that to thai farmers but to no avail... i was in thailand in udon and spent most of my time looking at farming methods and livestock.... beef cows are the in thing but again, buffalo are better and there are programs for developing and improving buffalo herds in thailand.

organic farming -- look for the site: Seeds of Change (genesis) seed company, they specialize in third world community farms etc...

my ex husband was head of organic field crops in israel and was sent to china to lecture there -- cultural differences in the way people perceive future, far future, and fast cash options make it difficult to change the way they can farm even if it is a more beneficial way in the long run: for instance, buffalo can walk around trees and the shit is very good fertilizer... tractors require the felling of decent big shade trees in the fields which in turn cause huge areas of land to be open to sun, and wind which moves the soil away, but the trees prevent direct evaporation of moisture from the land and help maintain moisture barriers,but bothers the farmer in the short run.... check out the site: http://www.agnet.org/ for more ideas.

bye, bina

[plachon]

Interesting post and website link Bina. Which kibbutz do you live on? I was there in 1987 and visited several, but didn't come across any organic ones.

Your concerns about the importance of trees in paddy lands are well founded and I'm very saddened about the steady loss of native trees I see each year. Some of them are the only one of their kind for miles and once they're gone, there's no way they can be replaced by natural seed fall. Conversely, eucalyptus is now spreading like a weed across the countryside, invading natural forests, degraded land, etc. due to its hardy nature and prodigious self seeding ability. And of couse, it's nightmare to get rid of once established due to its deep root system.

The main reason that native trees are disappearing is that as labour becomes more scarce and expensive, so the remaining farmers are turning to machinery more. It's a negative feedback loop, where more machinery means less need for labour, and thus remaining labour in village is less needed, more out-migration, fewer (and older) hands available and hence, more tractors, combine harvesters, threshers, etc. are appearing in classic industrial revolution style. All these machines and trees don't get on, so the farmer just chops them down, often for no more than a bit of firewood or charcoal in return. Big raintrees 40 / 50 years old i've seen sold to a dealer for a mere 600 baht! The dealers then no doubt, profit from the farmer's ignorance and sell the wood at a tidy profit elsewhere.

As a result the whole paddy field ecosystem is breaking down to a simplified version with less biodiversity and less resilience to "shocks"- like pests. Result: more chemical pesticides used and the vicious cycle continues. Very difficult to make it virtuous again, unless the role and importance of native trees is understood!

[bina]

Basically i cant believe anybody in his /her right mind thinks they will be rich quick thru farming crops or purebred animals for that matter unless they are very experienced are very rich and can bear the losses, or they can eat what they grow which is what most thai seems to do for the most part... ostriches?! dangerous animals , the market crashed, but they taste good, we ate ours after he attacked my thai worker, and two months later sompong saved the life of an older kibbutznik that went in to the ostrich pen from the in-heat aggressive male... the ostrich was very tasty thai issan style w/lots of lao khao to wash it down:)

[mango head]

Basically i cant believe anybody in his /her right mind thinks they will be rich quick thru farming

hi bina,

i think most of us have no dilusions about getting rich quick thru farming.

i myself just enjoy the quiet country life. and if i make a little moneyat it then that's a bonus.

the purpose of this thread is to share information amongst ourselves about the best way to farm in thailand since most of us are farangs from different countries.

i myself have just a small mango farm, but hope to build it up slowly.

others have bigger holdings and after talking to most of them, i have found that they are more interested in farming in such a way as to conserve the land and enjoy the more relaxed life on a farm.

your info on organic farming is very helpful though and i hope you will continue to post here.

chok dee

mango head

[ThaiFarmer]

i think most of us have no dilusions about getting rich quick thru farming.

i myself just enjoy the quiet country life. and if i make a little moneyat it then that's a bonus.

others have bigger holdings and after talking to most of them, i have found that they are more interested in farming in such a way as to conserve the land and enjoy the more relaxed life on a farm.

I just want to say that I fully agree with Mango Head. I don't think we are too many that imagine farming in LOS is a way of getting rich.

The main purpose is a quiet country life with no stress. I myself have had too much of that already. I don't want to end up before 60 in a heart attack because of stressing in a company owned by others.

For me it's wonderful to wake up early in cool the morning in our house in Isaan, with Khun Wife beside me, and listen to the sound of the cocks, chickens and dogs. To smell the smoke from the open fireplaces nearby . To see the long row of monks passing outside the house to collect food. To hear the "iron buffaloes" on their way to the rice fields. To listen to my favourite music "luktung" coming from my neighbours music machines, all different songs at the same time, but so what!? To look at the children dressed in uniforms when they walk to the local school. All the young girls looking like small dolls with almost the same haircut. The young boys with almost no hair at all. All of them wearing backpacks full of books.

Yes, I could go on for a long while with my praise to LOS but I think you already know exactly what I mean, don't you?

Peace and quiet! And some "small gardening" to keep you occupied and feel useful. That's life! If you feel hungry there is always some delicious khao niow gai yang to chew. If you feel thirsty you can probably find a Beer Singh in the fridge. What more can you wish? Beer Chang......!? Yes, OK! There's a place for that too in our fridge!!

[Thaicoon]

My wife has 88 Rai of land 4 clicks outside Buriram, and she buys land every Jan/Feb, her family farms it and they get 60% of the rice my wife gets 40%, it is good for the thai family, also all the land she owns is on a concrete road and some on a main road which is going up in value every year, so we think it is a good investment for the future, and for the future of our two daughters, so been a ferang I am not worried. we get quite a bit of rice in one year and we keep untill it goes up, then sell, and keep some back for replanting, we are looking for other things to grow, I was thinking about potatoes ?, any suggestions out there.

[Jeff1]

Thaifarmer, That was a nice reflection. You speak of the fond things of Issan life.

All of the things I truly enjoy myself. What are those words at the bottom ? Is that german ? What does it mean, if you dont mind me asking.

P,S. I like beer Chang

Thaicoon, yes I also agree that one will not get rich farming, however farming is farming. plant something that everyone wants ( not potatoes ) and costs the most in the market. Or a few different things is good too.

Good luck,

Jeff

[ThaiFarmer]

Thaifarmer, That was a nice reflection. You speak of the fond things of Issan life.

All of the things I truly enjoy myself.  What are those words at the bottom ? Is that german ? What does it mean, if you dont mind me asking.

P,S. I like beer Chang

Hi Jeff1,

I'm glad you have the same feelings for Isaan as I have. As I said I could go on for a long, long time describing all the things, sometimes very small details, that is so wonderful with Thailand and especially with Isaan country life. I could have wrote a whole book about the subject, but people who has been there knows exactly what I'm talking about so they don't have to read about it in a book and others who hasn't been there yet...........well, go to Isaan, try to live there for a period and you are caught for a lifetime. And you don't have to read any book to be convinced either, I'm sure.

For me the Luktung/mowlam music=Isaan. I don't know what you people out there think of this very special form of music but for me Luktung is the real Thailand. I'm not too fond of the "coffee shop music". There is a radio channel in Bangkok, Luktung FM 90.00 MHz, which I listen to via Internet every day, all day long at my office here in Sweden. Then I could dream of the wonderful country life that waits for me in Thailand in just a few years......... mmmmmm!!

If you are in the neighbourhood near Nonsa-At (=half way between Udon Thani and Khon Kaen) sometimes, please come and visit us and I promise to have saved a couple of cool Beer Chang for you!!

And the words at "the bottom", Jeff1! Well, it's in Swedish. You may well ask. In fact it's rather stupid . The subject is food!? It's just a list of 7 dishes, almost national dishes, very, very dear to a Swede. Especially for a Swede living abroad for many years and can't have any of those dishes. I finish the sentence with the words "...... who cares?". It is meant as a temptation for those who can read Swedish and my comment in the end means exactly: Who does really care? At least I don't!! Thailand has so much more to offer. If you can't live without those dishes....... well then stay in Sweden!! That's all!

Sorry Mango Head . I'm out of the topic "Farming in NE Thailand" again. Books, music, food........ I will try to improve!! But it's not easy! The words are just bubbling out........ from one subject to another!! Unsorted!!!

[bina]

BTW

that was 'farming in thailand' and i have a huge amount of land here filled with thai veggies etc 'smuggled' into israel; i eat thai 3 times a day; i hear luk tung music all day long (competing with the mezzuin from the arab village down below); BUT the romantic notion of farming is gentlemen farming as they call it in the states...

dont do potatoes; go for the diverse vegetables (how many kinds of eggplant are there in thailand?);

question: a man here from udon is thinking of marketing drip irrigation in udon area, anybody there that KNOWS agriculture interested or think it could work? he's thai engineer but doing the foreign labour deal because its better money.

i also am hoping my boyfriend and i will somehow in the future be able to join together in issan (ban chiang khom) half an hour from udon (was that your blue roof i zoomed passed one day? ; i was the girl with the 'pom yai si dang' behind a thai guy... ;

[ThaiFarmer]

BUT the romantic notion of farming is gentlemen farming as they call it in the states...

dont do potatoes

(was that your blue roof i zoomed passed one day?; i was the girl with the 'pom yai si dang' behind a thai guy... ;

Hi Bina,

I'm glad to hear that there's another farang who also likes luktung. I'm really a great fan of that music. The rhythm is fantastic. I don't understand a word of it, but it doesn't matter. It's still wonderful. Especially to see it live with dance and everything.

Yes, perhaps I will become a "Farming Gentleman"...... hmm ......sounds nice....hmmm!! "Gentleman Farmer"!!! Yes!! I think I will put that title on my official visiting card .

And yes again! I think I'm an incurable romantic too. I have struggled too long for ungrateful managers/directors in different companies. Now it's time for me to enjoy life and make the most of the years I have left (many I hope!). I have the ability to see and enjoy all the positive little things that happens around me everyday. Perhaps I can help a few of my Thai relatives to have a better life too while being a "Gentleman Farmer". Hope so. Just as a bonus!

And one more Yes! In fact we DO have a blue roof (who doesn't??). The house is made of concrete painted in cream and white. But I've no idea if it was our house you've passed that day. I doubt very much that you should have been out there in the middle of nowhere (9 km east of Nonsa-At) and just happened to pass our house. Possible of course! But anyway you are very, very welcome to pass by any day you want to say hello!! The fridge will be loaded with beer Singh for myself and some beer Chang for Jeff1. Any special cool refreshment we can offer you........!? But if you want to see us you have to wait for 3-4 years. Khun Wife and I are still living in Sweden except for some holiday weeks now and then in Thailand.

Talking about potatoes. You all say NO to potatoes but I've heard someone mention that potatoes are a lucrative business in Thailand. They want it for potato chips. You buy the right sort of potatoes from the chips manufacturer, put them in the dirt, let them grow and sell them back to the manufacturer again with a good profit.............well, I have no idea! It's only what I've heard. Anyone else who knows more about this?

Best regards,

Gentleman Farmer (Ex ThaiFarmer® )

[Thaicoon]

Gentleman Farmer, I have also heard about potatoes, making chips etc, i may give it a go.

[bina]

hi gentleman farmer,

actually i too will have to wait a few years i'm still on kibbutz with teenage children; i did see a lot of blue roofs -- blue is the colour we use against the evil eye here in the mediterranean so i like it! yes i was in way out in the boondocks places visiting family of workers that work here and boyfriend's family, so got way way off the farang beaten (especially israeli) track...

i will ask ex husband about potatoes in tropic humid (as opposed to hot dry arid) climate-- but his expertise is winter wheat (doesnt need irrigation), watermelons, melons et al; chickpeas, peppers, cotton, alfalfa , soy beans etc...

i suspect the chip potatoes are genetically engineered potatoes which i'm sure plachon (if you are still following thread) can explain what that means... the opposite of bio-diversity and subsistence level farming (grow your own everything farm)...

i like tapioca/cocoanut cream served cold; or mango/cocoanut cream served cold or with pieces of ice in it... didnt touch alcohol the whole time i was in thailand (i am a woman visiting a very traditional family; and jao nai (i was his boss here and i am a bit older) so had to sneak a cigarette with the buffalo in the evening while my friend guarded the area ;

[Jeff1]

Actually I was thinking about pigs ( no offence bina, I know you dont eat pork )

Does anyone have any experence, or thoughts on this ? Most people would complain about the smell, but I have read that there are ways to get around that too. Also the fecal matter produces methane gas that can be converted into energy

that can be sold and or consumed for electric / cooking power. If the shelter is done properly their would be hardly any smell ( im told ) , would employ alot of her family / village , would supply food for the locals, so they would not have to find a way to the market about a 45 miniute drive. Yes it's the sticks im talking about here, and will build this far enough away from any housing. Anyway, this is

just a thought now . There is so much more I need to know .

Thanks for the invite Thai farmer , I just might take a little ride for a cold beer chang.

Jeff

[bina]

Thanks for the thoughts but i dont do kosher; i eat anything put in front of me actually includng crickets etc...

look for pig associations (there are ostrich associations, etc) that follow the world market, talk breeds, food, etc; they have enews letters (which i cant get rid of the ostrich one); they can tell you about sows, keeping male breeders (nasty things), raising as a back yard type-- throw the slops and let it eat, or the organized planned breeding types. pig shit is a big environmental issue in the states, i doubt thailand has gotten there yet... just remember that the avian flue affected mostly large scale chicken yards and not the private chickens in the yard types: pig diseases are similar (swine flue etc)... check this site (in thai-- its the thai department of livestock development);

http://www.dld.go.th/home/index1.html

theres also the thai vet site but i lost the link; most of these useful sites are in thai obviously but they are probably better than 'foreign' sites the dont have the same climate, food etc...

BTW a pig in israel costs the thai workers here 3200 new israeli shekels (5 shekel to the dollar or 8 baht to the shekel) per month and every little tiny hair gets eaten...

bon appetite

[Jeff1]

Thanks for the reply bina, and the info.

I will now click on the link you gave and have my wife read it to me . If you come across any others please let me know.

Crickets ??.... ( that green face was supposed to be here ) first day with my new computer

Thanks again ,

Shalom

Jeff

[CMexpat]

Hi farmers, this has been some interesting reading

Nobody has become rich with farming in Thailand, I agree. There are some big companies involved like the CP group, but they make their money out of the trading side or selling whatever they have produced to the supermarkets. These companies are not dealing with "shark" in between brokers.

Bina, u have made some interesting comments but when it gets to potatoes, oops the Thai government does not allow genetically modified potatoes into the country.

Potatoes can be lucrative in Thailand. There is indeed quite a significant potato processing industry here. The table potato market (the potatoes that you see in Lotus or BigC) represents probably only 5% off all potatoes grown in Thailand.

The reason for it being a lucrative crop is because of the risks involved. The potato is not a tropical crop (like corn) and will perform much much better in a moderate climate. Inputs like fertiliser or chemicals are high, so when it goes wrong the s..t can really hit the fan. However if you get a decent yield you can make some money. Unless you really have some green fingers or some serious agronomy experience don't get too excited.

Most of the ideas i have seen here are great if you are financially secure (retired with pension) but when you plan to put your live savings into this, be extremely carefull, extremely informed and experienced in the green field.

Keep it as a hobby and enjoy the country style life.

[bina]

JEFF,

i PM'd you with the site and addresses; it didnt want to open but try a few times,

here's more sites for all the PC farmers out there:http://www.lead.virtualcentre.org/en/frame.htm this site has some thailand sustainable (not subsistence as i wrote by accident) agric. info in there somewhere just have to search a bit...

somewhere in the virtual world is a site called issangate (in thai/lao obviously) but i seem to remember it had agric. sites advertised...

search for the internet sites of these:

Faculty of Veterinary Science, Chulalongkorn University (CU), Mahidol University (MU)

Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Kasetsart University (KU), Khonkaen University (KKU) , ChiangMai University (CMU)

i have over 2000 zoo/vet/animal sites and they sometimes become dead leads--will do some more checking

good luck

oh, and yes crickets dipped in spicy sauce and washed down with lao khao just remember to remove the legs, they get stuck in teh teeth...

[bina]

CMEXPAT,

i'm glad you agree with me about farming;

as for potatoes, i didnt check, i suspected but i can tell you that as in any area, lots of illegal stuff goes on; my ex was the director of the national board of organic field crops here, and he could tell a lot of stories about bribes, lies, changing lab results for 'organic' fruit veggies, etc' that were meant to be exported etc, ; ...spuds indeed dislike HOT;

i still stick with sustainable living farming: veggies, chickens, etc.... what you can eat and sell, but not get rich quick...

and to list all the uncontrollable things that can go wrong:

birds eat all the new shoots in one night,

it doesnt rain on time and you cant irrigate

it rains when you have to harvest (cotton) and the humidity sc--ws up the fiber content,

the wheat gets wet

the potatoes rot with fungus,

some idiot sprays too close to your fields with something that you cant use ; or your goats cows whatever graze there eat the stuff and die,

the guy who checks the bug level in the field (do they do that for cotton in thailand) is too stoned and misses out on the bugs and they ruin tonnes of crop,

locusts

crows eat all the cherries,

people come at night and steal kilos and kilos of watermelons or steal the goats (every year)

wild dogs/jackals whatever get into your herd,

kids motorbike thru the fields

there is some disease that the gov't denies exists and then u have to destroy livestock

BUT GOOD LUCK

its the same any where in the world

[Jeff1]

Thank you Bina,

If we ever do meet the first bag of bug's is on me

Jeff

[plachon]

Hi farming folks!

Going back to the potatoes for a moment, I wouldn't write them off altogether for doiug in Isaan, but would make certain caveats. I tried a few last winter as an experiment in my back garden and got a few v. small spuds for my minimal efforts. However, this year I'll put the lessons from last year to use.

Firstly, like carrrots, plant them as soon after the rainy season stops as possible, so you make the most of the longest period of "cool" weather that Thailand can offer. Get them eyed up first before planting in sand or carefully wrapping each in newspaper. Put loads of organic crap in the soil as Isaan soilsd are naturally low. Forget paddy fields which are still usually waterlogged when the rains stopped (and still full of rice!), but go for more upland areas with good sandy/loamy soil. Only irrigate once the plants are big if possible. Expect a harvest after 10 -12 weeks.

I know they grow a lot of spuds in the highlands of Vietnam, where it's cooler and the soils are good. But lowland Isaan may be a problem with the exterme heat, even in November! If there are heat tolerant local varieities (Non- GMO preferably!) available, then maybe you could get a half decent crop, esp. if you lived in Loei mountains. But, experimentation is the name of the game in farming, so just try it on a small scale with spuds out the market first and see how you go! Chok dee!

Bina & Jeff, I've got a weakness for mole crickets and grasshoppers too! Maybe we should start an Insect appreciation club meeting once a month to sample new types of tasty, tempting invertebrates?

[bina]

I was raised from an early age to taste anything that was put on my plate; and to eat in the way the host was i.e. w/fingers, spoon, 10 different types of forks and spoons, whatever.... eaten raw mealyworms (not reccommended for lack of taste and plastic texture); BUT

serve it to me and i will try it as long as it doesnt bite me back in the process!!

QUESTION:

1. does anybody know about the use of drip irrigation in issan (not mountainous areas); is there a need or can large (wealthy) farmers afford it?

a thai worker, engineer from udon thani uni... would like to open a business or market drip irrigation from here (israel) once he returns to wife and boy back in thailand,and told him i would investigate possibilities ; obviously he is not the green, politically correct farmer but a small time agribusiness farmer who has learned a lot from the israeli way of farming as long as he has been working in the orchards and fields here.

2. the other thing he asks about is asparagus?

this info i cant find on the 'net.... i told him i would look since he doesnt have access to computers (he wont come to my house -- employer/employee status etc.)

Plachon perhaps u have some ideas? i didnt see any drip irrigation in the village farms but perhaps the agrobusinesses use them? this irrigation is good for fruit orchards and veggies; obviously not rice.

[plachon]

Hi Bina,

About 7 or 8 years ago I used to see some experimental drip irrigation systems set up in various villages around mid-Isaan, with Israeli sponsorship and technical back-up provided by a company called "Netafim". Don't know if it's still active in Thailand these days, but the systems themselves weren't great successes. They were being used on small vegetable plots, tended by hand and the villagers were used to hand watering to excess. The drip pipes needed a lot of maintenance, that the villagers weren't really up to, plus they often seemed to put their mattocks through the pipes through careless swings. Holes need regular cleaning and storage between crops can be a problem.

I think it would work with fruit trees and certain high value vegetables which need point application of water, but where water is too cheap and plentiful, you'd have a job in persuading people of the benefits of such high invesment costs, imho. I've also seen them in use at the famous Chateau du Loei vineyard, where money is no object to the mega-rich owner. So, perhaps there is a chance of selling it to wealthy absentee landowners for their hobby farms and manicured gardens!

I used to have the card for the Netafim agent, but think I binned it a year or two ago, but perhaps you could search for them on the Net and see if they still work in Thailand.

[bina]

of course netafim every israeli that wants to work overseas does the 'be an agent for netafim' thing because they have branches in china uzbakaztan etc.and its a good way to travel and live in a foreign country for two years... this thai man knows netafim, thats what he is interested in; i have the contact names thru my ex...there is also a similar group from kibbutz na'an; natifim is from kibbutz hazerim...

but i'm glad you pointed out the problems; its funny how when you work with something your whole life then things like storage, etc seem like common knowledge until you put the same thing in a different cultural framework...i will pass this info on to Sathon; he has one more year here to plan or re-plan. I noticed that here the workers prefer the spray irrigation system for their personal vegetable plot, they psychologically feel that the veggies get watered better this way as they can 'see' the water going to the veggies; the drip method is sort of invisible.

Is there not a drought in parts of issan area now? The Thai DOA doesnt promote water conservation /agriculture? (drip irrigation, processed sewage water for non-consumption crops such as cotton and tobbacco? i'm not talking about little home veggie plots but the cash crop stuff)

what all this means is that even if you do know livestock or plants, changing climate, soil and water means that you have to basically start re-learning everything. I assume there is something like a farm extension service/counselling for promoting good farm practices; providing funds/loans for experimental methods etc?

How come you know so much agric stuff; card from netafim etc?

anyway, thank you very much for replying so quickly,

bina

[billd766]

I have followed this thread with interest as my wife has about 13 to 15 rai in the North / Central region about 50 km from Kamphaeng Phet and she is slowly planting it for farming. This is the first year and we got caught by the lack of rain and no reliable water storage system. That will change later as we will build a decent storage tank and also drill a well.

We actually had no water from the main supply from the road for nearly 2 months and had to rely on what we could store and what we could obtain from the stream and could buy.

She is not in this for money as I have a pension and we can survive on that.

We have a couple of local people working for us on low wages but they stay in a house we built for them and have only to buy some of the food they need as we give them rice etc.

We are not rich or "showing off" our wealth and we only have a pick up truck that is 2 years old and my wifes 10 year old Nissan Sunny.

If we need a tractor then we rent from the locals and a good friend helps out when we need it and we return the favour when they ask.

If there are any "farang farmers" in the area I would like to know of their experiences.

i have seen about farangs in the local village in the past couple of months so at least I know that I am not the only one.

I live in Bangkok during the week and go home at the weekends, and yes it is nice to smell the fresh air and hear the local noises from up to a km away.

The farm is on a tarmac road not far from Mae Wong national park and we are surrounded by hills.

Unfortunately the telephone line stops about 4 km away so we have to use mobiles to keep in contact and that is not so good when it rains.

Other than that I love it up there as it is peaceful, clean and quiet.

Even the locals in the village seem to know me now.

[plachon]

Welcome to the thread Billd! Sounds like you have a nice set up for w/ends in Kampeng Phet. What kind of condition is the forest in Mae Wong NP in? Would like to see that part of Thailand one day, as it's one part i've never really explored.

Water shortage is a problem in the north and NE Thailand during the dry season(Lampang reputedly has the lowest mean annual rainfall in Thailand, which may surprise a few that always assumed Isaan is the driest part of the Kingdom), but there is enough the rest of the year to ensure it shouldn't be an obstacle to farming. With sensible placing of on-farm ponds and use of borehole water if its quality is adequate (problem in large areas of Isaan due to salinity) and plenty of rain water storage jars around buildings, there's no need to be short of water, even miles from the nearest stram or river. This is one of the biggest myths of Isaan - ie. that it is a "dry area". Wrong, it gets a long dry season, but there's plenty the rest of the year - about 900 mm in the very driest areas around Chaiyaphum, up to 1800 mm in parts of Nong Khai and Nakhon Phanom.

Compare that with a "wet city" like London and you'll soon see that Isaan is even wetter! It just mostly falls between May and October, so the trick is to store as much then on-farm, and judiciously use it in the dry season. The govt's approach has always been to promote large-scale off-farm irrigation systems run by bureaucrats not responsive to millions of small farmers diverse needs. Added to that the fact that Isaan is one large plain (more land is drowned than irrigated at most schemes) overlaying a massive salt dome (salinisation is spreading rampantly) and large-scale irrigation was doomed to faliure from the start. Yet still they persist in promoting it............

As for potential for drip irrigation Bina, I think you're well aware of the limitations, which tend to be like you say, cultural and social, as well as technical and economical. It does have it's applications, for certain crops in certain circumstances, but remember it's only going to be needed for about 6 - 7 months of the year, after which "angel pee" will do the rest. As long as Sathon doesn't get blinded to the technology and realises the limitations, then he may succeed, but being a good salesman, is very different from being a good farmer. Unfortunately, Thailand is littered with the project remains of the works of good salesman, which looked great on paper, but nose dived on the ground. The farmers usually pay the price of these bad projects (sinking deeper into debt), while the salesman move on to flogging cars or the latest import from Japan. Know what I mean John.

Agroforestry is still the best way to go, integrated with suitable winged and 4 legged livestock to the local agro-ecosystem. Once, you've got these components and keep chemical inputs to a minimum, the system is very stable and self maintaining and encourages so much other biodiversity (tasty insects and amphibians especially), that the farmer, is never short of food choices. Compare this to the average mono-crop farmer of rice, sugar cane, cassava, etc. who has nothing to sell in the local market and little to eat in his fields ansdis nearly always in debt. The Thai DOA sends out very conflicting messages, one day promoting water conservation and integrated farming, the next day promoting monocrop cash crops and mega irrigation projects (i.e. to many predatory politicians controling things at the top). And in recent years, the local extensioin services, always underfunded, have been scaled back even further, which was highlighted by the slow way in which the bird flu crisis was both reported back up to the top and dealt with when it couldn't be ignored by the politicians any more.

[bina]

plachon, thanx for info, i will pass it on to him...

your other info was good too; but i think it would be difficult to convince the farmers i met not to 'poach' or hunt before a few generations have built up in the forests?

found some sites for those interested (seems to be up your alley too):

From the HORIZON Solutions Site,

www.solutions-site.org

Alternative agriculture in Thailand and Japan

was interesting reading;

http://www.intracen.org/mds/sectors/organic/faoconf.pdf: an organic conference in bangkok'

and the organization that i know (did translations for some standards for them):International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements

www.ifoam.org

the soil must be very alkaline? doesnt that affect the quality and quantity of the crops and livestock (cows and buffalo i think dont like alkaline, whereas goats can deal better with 'saltier' forage...

the more i read the more i think the issan area is an ecological mess and the small farmers are going to suffer more and more; a shame, by the time my boyfriend and i can live together 5-10 years down the road (barring more surprises and obstacles along the way); the land near his home may be salt fields and or unfarmable due to pollution (overly aggressive pesticides and hormone use);tree harvesting, cash crops etc.

falang gentlemen farmers , be responsible farmers for your kids and grandkids sakes; plachon seems to really know what he is about...

chok dee,

bina