Second Scotland referendum 'inevitable'

[Keesters]

Include the English & Welsh in the vote and they might just get independence.

You mean from the EU?

No, from the UK which is what this post is supposed to be about.

[NoshowJones]

Include the English & Welsh in the vote and they might just get independence.

You mean from the EU?

No, from the UK which is what this post is supposed to be about.

England and Wales to get independence from the UK????

[Keesters]

Include the English & Welsh in the vote and they might just get independence.

You mean from the EU?

No, from the UK which is what this post is supposed to be about.

England and Wales to get independence from the UK????

Duh, you really don't get it do you! Include England and Wales in the voting process to decide if Scotland can leave to Union.

[mommysboy]

The people said no, even when all conditions were set fair for a yes vote. End of...

[Chicog]

Well Cameron has nixed it anyway.

The prime minister, speaking on a flight to Indonesia ahead of a tour of south-east Asia, brushed aside Salmond’s comment.

Referring to the 2014 referendum, he said: “I think it is important that a referendum is legal and properly constituted and that is what we had, and it was decisive, so I do not see the need for another one.”

Second Scottish referendum inevitable, says Alex Salmond

Read more

Under current UK law, the Scottish National party would need the permission of the UK parliament to stage a referendum and for it to be binding.

But there have been suggestions the SNP will seek a mandate for a second referendum in next year’s elections for the Scottish parliament, and then demand Cameron respect the will of the Scottish people.

It has also been suggested that Scotland’s government could stage a referendum in defiance of London and demand secession. Catalonian nationalists in Spain had planned such an indicative referendum but backed down.

Cameron rejected such a stance saying: “I take a very clear approach that these things must be legitimate and that is my view.”

He ruled out a referendum in this parliament. And his aides point out that after the last referendum, the SNP said the issue of a separate state had been ruled out for a generation. It had also said the idea of a “neverendum”, in which the issue is never off the table, was ultimately destabilising for the Scottish economy.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/27/david-cameron-rule-out-second-scottish-independence-referendum

[RuamRudy]

The people said no, even when all conditions were set fair for a yes vote. End of...

The conditions were far from fair - if they were, the Queen, the BBC, Whitehall, the Scottish Office and numerous other seemingly impartial bodies would not have weighed in with their perspectives or veiled threats. However that is in the past - and nobody is beating this drum any more, other than to point out where statements such as yours are incorrect.

Next year, with the elections for the Scottish Parliament, we will see the real depth of support for the SNP. I wouldn't want to call anything, but the odds don't look good for either Labour or the Lib Dems. Couple this with a possible split through the UK of allegiance towards the EU, and the discontent may ramp up further.

This is a hopelessly tangled situation, guaranteed to make everyone unhappy in all areas of the UK, regardless of where their affiliations lie. Such a close call in the referendum results was the worst thing for stability.

[nontabury]

An independent Scotland would resemble Greece by now.

100% correct.

well, many people get comfort thinking it would.

Ironic, isn't it. We hear so many stories about chippy Scots with grudges and hatred for the English. But when you ask for an example of such a person, none are to be found, barring the odd nutter in a tam-o-shanter. HOWEVER, the amount of hatred flowing from England to Scotland is relentless. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a look at any edition of the Daily Mail or Telegraph, their online forums etc. Any time there is a story even remotely connected with Scotland, the Scots haters will be falling over themselves to denigrate our people and our country, yet we are characterised as the bitter ones.

Ok Ruam Rudy you asked for examples,so I'll give you 3.

1/ approximately 15-20 yrs ago while on holiday in Sri Lanka I got in conversation with a young British couple, The lady told me that she had recently visited relatives in Scotland, during that visit she had been insulted on different occasion for being English, even starting from the taxi driver who took her from Glasgow railway station. What they did't know was that she had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents,as had her ancestors for many generation. They just wanted to insult her, thinking she was English due to her accent, which she had a acquired during her education at military schools in Germany,where her father had served in the army.

2/ a few yrs back while having a drink in a quite bar here in Thailand, 4 Scotsmen entered, and while playing snooker started to insult the English,the 5 of us( including 1 Irishman) just kept quite. Another Farang came in and went up to the bar to place his order, two of the Scotsmen then stood directly behind him and directed further English insults at him, they were then stopped and lead away by a couple of the bar girls. We then spoke to this guy, and it then became obvious that he had a slight Scottish accent. He went on to explain that he was Scottish born and had moved to Salford when he was 10yrs old due to his father taking up employment there. He further said that he was ashamed to be a Scott, as so many Scottish people were narrow minded nationalist.

3/ a friend of mine here in Thailand recently confirmed that YES many Scots were indeed anti English and were brought up to be like that. Seemingly it's the culture in many Scottish families.

[NongKhaiKid]

Post 97.

Nationalism ?

During my 20 years in Hong Kong I was regularly asked what I planned to do when I retired and returned to England.

Both there and almost as many years here I regularly hear of things that don't exist such as English Passports and Driving Licences and how much England contributes to the EU.

Point the mistake out and the usual response is an exasperated " Oh you know what I mean " and oh yes I certainly do.

Just prior to the referendum several Englishmen told me they hoped Scotland would stay in the Union but if the vote was for independence they hoped Scotland as a country would fail. Nice.

Edited July 28, 2015 by NongKhaiKid

[RuamRudy]

Ironic, isn't it. We hear so many stories about chippy Scots with grudges and hatred for the English. But when you ask for an example of such a person, none are to be found, barring the odd nutter in a tam-o-shanter. HOWEVER, the amount of hatred flowing from England to Scotland is relentless. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a look at any edition of the Daily Mail or Telegraph, their online forums etc. Any time there is a story even remotely connected with Scotland, the Scots haters will be falling over themselves to denigrate our people and our country, yet we are characterised as the bitter ones.

Ok Ruam Rudy you asked for examples,so I'll give you 3.

1/ approximately 15-20 yrs ago while on holiday in Sri Lanka I got in conversation with a young British couple, The lady told me that she had recently visited relatives in Scotland, during that visit she had been insulted on different occasion for being English, even starting from the taxi driver who took her from Glasgow railway station. What they did't know was that she had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents,as had her ancestors for many generation. They just wanted to insult her, thinking she was English due to her accent, which she had a acquired during her education at military schools in Germany,where her father had served in the army.

2/ a few yrs back while having a drink in a quite bar here in Thailand, 4 Scotsmen entered, and while playing snooker started to insult the English,the 5 of us( including 1 Irishman) just kept quite. Another Farang came in and went up to the bar to place his order, two of the Scotsmen then stood directly behind him and directed further English insults at him, they were then stopped and lead away by a couple of the bar girls. We then spoke to this guy, and it then became obvious that he had a slight Scottish accent. He went on to explain that he was Scottish born and had moved to Salford when he was 10yrs old due to his father taking up employment there. He further said that he was ashamed to be a Scott, as so many Scottish people were narrow minded nationalist.

3/ a friend of mine here in Thailand recently confirmed that YES many Scots were indeed anti English and were brought up to be like that. Seemingly it's the culture in many Scottish families.

Two annecdotes and someone with a jaundiced opinion prove what? That we are all rabidly anti-english? If you believe that then I think that you, personally, have a pre-formed opinion and you are seeking to scrape together sufficient stories that you think will justify it. As I have said earlier, our country is not without its fair share of people who don't show us at our best. But they are the exception, and generally their behaviour is not tolerated.

[jacko45k]

Of course he only accepts democracy when people vote how he wants. His giant ego and personal ambition to be Scotland's first president for life won't let him ever give up. Remember is initial reaction to loosing was to cry about cheating, unfair presentations of the facts etc. A despicable self-centered politician who couldn't really care less about the Scottish people or their future so long as he's "el presidente". And now his poisonous witch of a fairy is creating as much mischief as possible to stir things up and further the cause regardless of consequences.

Time this clown and his tinkerbell were dealt with. Someone needs to explain that 4.5 million people in Scotland aren't going to fcku about with the future of 65 million; or decide on the Union on their own; or continue to decide what happens in other parts of the Union.

If and when there is another "referendum" on the Union, I hope the incumbent government has the honesty, integrity and courage to give all UK citizens a say.

OK, you are either mistaken or lying openly - Salmond made no such claim of cheating after the referendum, but hey, don't let the truth get in the way of your smear.

And I think you will find that WHEN we Scots want to leave the union, we won't be asking you for permission.

But a referendum indicated that you did not want to.

Let us hope next time the concept is better planned......... because if you plan to retain the currency, for one, you should be seeking some form of permission from the current government.

At the moment I suspect a lot of English people would support the idea too.

I struggle to see how the concept is so confusing for many people - Scotland is an equal partner in the UK. Therefore Scotland is the current government, as is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A union of countries owns the pound. It does not belong to any one of those countries.

It seems to have confused you.

The Bank of England is the central bank.

Who defines the interest rates?

[nontabury]

Post 97.

Nationalism ?

During my 20 years in Hong Kong I was regularly asked what I planned to do when I retired and returned to England.

Both there and almost as many years here I regularly hear of things that don't exist such as English Passports and Driving Licences and how much England contributes to the EU.

Point the mistake out and the usual response is an exasperated " Oh you know what I mean " and oh yes I certainly do.

Just prior to the referendum several Englishmen told me they hoped Scotland would stay in the Union but if the vote was for independence they hoped Scotland as a country would fail. Nice.

I understand you NK, I have also frowned upon people describing everything British as English. I would always state to a foreigner that I am British,check into a hotel as British etc,thought of myself as British 1st, English 2nd, yet unfortunately after a while I noticed that it was the Scots who always insisted on being called Scots as opposed to British.

P.s while serving in the forces abroad, the locals would always refer to The UK as London. Being from Yorkshire I would just laugh. Their ignorance not mine.[emoji85]

[RuamRudy]

But a referendum indicated that you did not want to.

Let us hope next time the concept is better planned......... because if you plan to retain the currency, for one, you should be seeking some form of permission from the current government.

At the moment I suspect a lot of English people would support the idea too.

I struggle to see how the concept is so confusing for many people - Scotland is an equal partner in the UK. Therefore Scotland is the current government, as is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A union of countries owns the pound. It does not belong to any one of those countries.

It seems to have confused you.

The Bank of England is the central bank.

Who defines the interest rates?

I think the nomenclature is confusing you - the Bank of England does not simply represent England, just like Scotland Yard is not actually in Scotland. Of course there are issues that would need resolving around how interest rates would be set, but the pound belongs to me as much as it belongs to you.

[jacko45k]

But a referendum indicated that you did not want to.

Let us hope next time the concept is better planned......... because if you plan to retain the currency, for one, you should be seeking some form of permission from the current government.

At the moment I suspect a lot of English people would support the idea too.

I struggle to see how the concept is so confusing for many people - Scotland is an equal partner in the UK. Therefore Scotland is the current government, as is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A union of countries owns the pound. It does not belong to any one of those countries.

It seems to have confused you.

The Bank of England is the central bank.

Who defines the interest rates?

I think the nomenclature is confusing you - the Bank of England does not simply represent England, just like Scotland Yard is not actually in Scotland. Of course there are issues that would need resolving around how interest rates would be set, but the pound belongs to me as much as it belongs to you.

I believe 9% belongs to Scotland.

[nontabury]

Ironic, isn't it. We hear so many stories about chippy Scots with grudges and hatred for the English. But when you ask for an example of such a person, none are to be found, barring the odd nutter in a tam-o-shanter. HOWEVER, the amount of hatred flowing from England to Scotland is relentless. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a look at any edition of the Daily Mail or Telegraph, their online forums etc. Any time there is a story even remotely connected with Scotland, the Scots haters will be falling over themselves to denigrate our people and our country, yet we are characterised as the bitter ones.

Ok Ruam Rudy you asked for examples,so I'll give you 3.

1/ approximately 15-20 yrs ago while on holiday in Sri Lanka I got in conversation with a young British couple, The lady told me that she had recently visited relatives in Scotland, during that visit she had been insulted on different occasion for being English, even starting from the taxi driver who took her from Glasgow railway station. What they did't know was that she had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents,as had her ancestors for many generation. They just wanted to insult her, thinking she was English due to her accent, which she had a acquired during her education at military schools in Germany,where her father had served in the army.

2/ a few yrs back while having a drink in a quite bar here in Thailand, 4 Scotsmen entered, and while playing snooker started to insult the English,the 5 of us( including 1 Irishman) just kept quite. Another Farang came in and went up to the bar to place his order, two of the Scotsmen then stood directly behind him and directed further English insults at him, they were then stopped and lead away by a couple of the bar girls. We then spoke to this guy, and it then became obvious that he had a slight Scottish accent. He went on to explain that he was Scottish born and had moved to Salford when he was 10yrs old due to his father taking up employment there. He further said that he was ashamed to be a Scott, as so many Scottish people were narrow minded nationalist.

3/ a friend of mine here in Thailand recently confirmed that YES many Scots were indeed anti English and were brought up to be like that. Seemingly it's the culture in many Scottish families.

Two annecdotes and someone with a jaundiced opinion prove what? That we are all rabidly anti-english? If you believe that then I think that you, personally, have a pre-formed opinion and you are seeking to scrape together sufficient stories that you think will justify it. As I have said earlier, our country is not without its fair share of people who don't show us at our best. But they are the exception, and generally their behaviour is not tolerated.

You simple disregard it as being just two anecdotes and one opinion from another Scotsman. I could give you many more, but you have such a closed mind you would not accept anything that goes against you own prejudices.

[RuamRudy]

Ironic, isn't it. We hear so many stories about chippy Scots with grudges and hatred for the English. But when you ask for an example of such a person, none are to be found, barring the odd nutter in a tam-o-shanter. HOWEVER, the amount of hatred flowing from England to Scotland is relentless. If anyone doesn't believe me, take a look at any edition of the Daily Mail or Telegraph, their online forums etc. Any time there is a story even remotely connected with Scotland, the Scots haters will be falling over themselves to denigrate our people and our country, yet we are characterised as the bitter ones.

Ok Ruam Rudy you asked for examples,so I'll give you 3.

1/ approximately 15-20 yrs ago while on holiday in Sri Lanka I got in conversation with a young British couple, The lady told me that she had recently visited relatives in Scotland, during that visit she had been insulted on different occasion for being English, even starting from the taxi driver who took her from Glasgow railway station. What they did't know was that she had been born in Scotland to Scottish parents,as had her ancestors for many generation. They just wanted to insult her, thinking she was English due to her accent, which she had a acquired during her education at military schools in Germany,where her father had served in the army.

2/ a few yrs back while having a drink in a quite bar here in Thailand, 4 Scotsmen entered, and while playing snooker started to insult the English,the 5 of us( including 1 Irishman) just kept quite. Another Farang came in and went up to the bar to place his order, two of the Scotsmen then stood directly behind him and directed further English insults at him, they were then stopped and lead away by a couple of the bar girls. We then spoke to this guy, and it then became obvious that he had a slight Scottish accent. He went on to explain that he was Scottish born and had moved to Salford when he was 10yrs old due to his father taking up employment there. He further said that he was ashamed to be a Scott, as so many Scottish people were narrow minded nationalist.

3/ a friend of mine here in Thailand recently confirmed that YES many Scots were indeed anti English and were brought up to be like that. Seemingly it's the culture in many Scottish families.

Two annecdotes and someone with a jaundiced opinion prove what? That we are all rabidly anti-english? If you believe that then I think that you, personally, have a pre-formed opinion and you are seeking to scrape together sufficient stories that you think will justify it. As I have said earlier, our country is not without its fair share of people who don't show us at our best. But they are the exception, and generally their behaviour is not tolerated.

You simple disregard it as being just two anecdotes and one opinion from another Scotsman. I could give you many more, but you have such a closed mind you would not accept anything that goes against you own prejudices.

Read again what I wrote - I fully accept that we have countrymen who let us down badly. I certainly never disregarded it, but the thrust of your point is that we are all preconditioned to hold some form of prejudice against the English, and I simply reject that. I know many English people in Scotland who would agree with me. Is my and their experience worth nothing in comparison to that of your friends?

[Baerboxer]

The point is that 55% didn't want shot of the UK.

Democracy's great - unless you don't like the result.

The VAST majority of Scots, once again, showed their disgust and revulsion for conservatism, yet we have to endure it once again. Democracy is not actually present in the UK so why bring it into the mix now?

Democracy was demonstrated by the holding of an election, with free and fair voting and the right to vote of all citizens of age. The fact a large portion of the population can't be bothered to vote and therefore get a majority government voted in by a minority is lamentable. But the right not to vote is as important as the right to vote. It's personal choice.

People in Scotland clearly lost faith in Labor and Liberals and have an historical dislike of Conservatives; so many voted SNP. Fair enough. In other parts of the country people also rejected Labor and Liberals but voted Conservative.

The British parliamentary system may well be in need of reform. The first past the post, the way constituencies are designed, the amount of centralized power etc. But, Scotland with it's tiny population will never be the big dog that decides how it is for everyone - despite the longing of some for it to be so. The whole point of a democracy is following the wishes of the majority.

If you look at how many people actually voted SNP and their disproportionate number of MP seats compared to other parties and number of votes they poled, then yes, it doesn't look democratic. And SNP supporters still whine on about how unfair it is even though they have been massively advantaged.

What will Sturgeon and Salmond propose next, lowering the voting age to 14 in any referendum? If they keep changing the rules they should get the desired result sooner or later and sod real democracy.

The SNP took 50% of the vote in Scotland at the election - they didn't get elected through dodgy constituencies and rigged boundaries. They took half the vote of the entire country!

Personally, I have never advocated that the tail wag the dog. It would be a ridiculous notion to do otherwise, but nor do I think that our democratic will should be snuffed out because we are in tow to whatever England decides.

50% of the vote in Scotland is gives them a disproportionately high number of seats in the UK parliament. So many would argue that the constituencies are designed doesn't give equal representation.

Had that not been the case, some Scots would still be whining about it. As usual keep the bits of the system that's to your advantage but change the other bits. How democratic.

How ever you cut and dice it, many people, not just Scots, won't be happy with whichever party is in power. That's democracy. If they don't like it they have to persuade more to vote for them or support changes. Taking the game ball and going home isn't an option just because you can't always get your own way, especially when you don't own the ball.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Baerboxer

[Baerboxer]

But a referendum indicated that you did not want to.

Let us hope next time the concept is better planned......... because if you plan to retain the currency, for one, you should be seeking some form of permission from the current government.

At the moment I suspect a lot of English people would support the idea too.

I struggle to see how the concept is so confusing for many people - Scotland is an equal partner in the UK. Therefore Scotland is the current government, as is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A union of countries owns the pound. It does not belong to any one of those countries.

It seems to have confused you.

The Bank of England is the central bank.

Who defines the interest rates?

I think the nomenclature is confusing you - the Bank of England does not simply represent England, just like Scotland Yard is not actually in Scotland. Of course there are issues that would need resolving around how interest rates would be set, but the pound belongs to me as much as it belongs to you.

That's simply not true and something Salmond always pretended could be automatically decided by Scotland alone. Not so. Scotland issues its own bank notes. Without a UK bail out there wouldn't be Royal Bank of Scotland.

The reality is it's not cut and dry or as anyone might assume, The SNP like to pretend they can tell the rest of the UK and the EU how it will be, lay down all the terms and tell everyone what to do. Bluff and poppycock,

[Baerboxer]

I struggle to see how the concept is so confusing for many people - Scotland is an equal partner in the UK. Therefore Scotland is the current government, as is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A union of countries owns the pound. It does not belong to any one of those countries.

No it's not. And that is the basic difference that will never be reconciled. You can not be a tiny part of a group and be equal in everything. Some things yes, some things no.

Scotland has its own legal system, laws, parliament and issues its own bank notes. In many ways it's already more equal.

[Baerboxer]

I have not voted for UKIP, I am referring to England, and I say that anyone who lives anywhere in the UK who votes for any of the two main parties deserve all they get.

The English people don't have much of a choice outside of the two main parties, and if I was English I would be voting UKIP.

For me it would have been an independent Scotland all the way, but I would now be concerned about Scotland being part of the EU

and having to use the Euro.

Possum.

The voting system is rigged. It is only ever going to benefit the 2 main Parties.

That is not going to change in our lifetime.

The SNP and its supporters, need to stop blaming other Parties for the failure in getting a YES vote.

The fault lies in one place and one place only. Firmly on the doorstep of the SNP. They had an historic chance to create an Independent Scotland, something that they had been planning for over 70 years.

They failed miserably. Why did they fail ? SOS. Soundbites over Substance.

Do you really think they failed? They were up against all 3 mainstream parties, all but 2 news agencies, the BBC showing clear, non-stop bias, supposedly independent government departments, foreign heads of state, the Queen - and yet a 5% swing would have been enough. They may have lost the battle but they did tremendously in the war - enough that they routed every other party in May, and show no sign of reversing that trend.

They lost because the majority let their heads make the decision; checked out the polices and saw through the veneer. I really believe SNP were surprised and to an extent frightened by how well they did. Had by some quirk they'd have won, they would have been exposed very quickly and they new that well.

Edited July 28, 2015 by Baerboxer

[Baerboxer]

The people said no, even when all conditions were set fair for a yes vote. End of...

The conditions were far from fair - if they were, the Queen, the BBC, Whitehall, the Scottish Office and numerous other seemingly impartial bodies would not have weighed in with their perspectives or veiled threats. However that is in the past - and nobody is beating this drum any more, other than to point out where statements such as yours are incorrect.

Next year, with the elections for the Scottish Parliament, we will see the real depth of support for the SNP. I wouldn't want to call anything, but the odds don't look good for either Labour or the Lib Dems. Couple this with a possible split through the UK of allegiance towards the EU, and the discontent may ramp up further.

This is a hopelessly tangled situation, guaranteed to make everyone unhappy in all areas of the UK, regardless of where their affiliations lie. Such a close call in the referendum results was the worst thing for stability.

Oh diddums, we lost and they didn't fight fair.

The 45% who voted and voted for us could see through all this. The 55% who voted and voted against us were easily mislead and frightened.

Typical SNP attitude and why 55% of sensible intelligent Scots who voted rejected the idea of splitting from the UK and being a single country under SNP rule,

[Baerboxer]

Is that right? I might be mistaken but I thought I distinctly remember him being interviewed and making comments about the BBC, leaks from the Bank of England, releasing facts to scare people.

Have you read the Act of Union? Does it contain a mechanism for seceding? Some American states tried that once, became known as rebels, didn't work out so well for them.

In that respect you are right - but this was before the referendum. On the night he was very magnanimous in defeat. He was, however, entirely correct about the dirty tricks played by various government departments against the SNP, something that continued right up to the May election, and will hopefully see the one remaining Scottish LD MP lose his seat very shortly.

Entirely correct according to you and him, that is.

Dirty tricks - yes some people had the audacity to present true facts, point out consequences and pick at the paper thin SNP strategies in order to inform people. How dare they dispute what President Elect Salmond presented as "fact". Like how he heavily implied it would be his decision if Scotland used the Pound Sterling, the Euro or issued its own currency (see how far that would get) and that everyone else would simply fall into line.

[phrodan]

Is that right? I might be mistaken but I thought I distinctly remember him being interviewed and making comments about the BBC, leaks from the Bank of England, releasing facts to scare people.

Have you read the Act of Union? Does it contain a mechanism for seceding? Some American states tried that once, became known as rebels, didn't work out so well for them.

In that respect you are right - but this was before the referendum. On the night he was very magnanimous in defeat. He was, however, entirely correct about the dirty tricks played by various government departments against the SNP, something that continued right up to the May election, and will hopefully see the one remaining Scottish LD MP lose his seat very shortly.

Entirely correct according to you and him, that is.

Dirty tricks - yes some people had the audacity to present true facts, point out consequences and pick at the paper thin SNP strategies in order to inform people. How dare they dispute what President Elect Salmond presented as "fact". Like how he heavily implied it would be his decision if Scotland used the Pound Sterling, the Euro or issued its own currency (see how far that would get) and that everyone else would simply fall into line.

Dribble.

[phrodan]

The people said no, even when all conditions were set fair for a yes vote. End of...

The conditions were far from fair - if they were, the Queen, the BBC, Whitehall, the Scottish Office and numerous other seemingly impartial bodies would not have weighed in with their perspectives or veiled threats. However that is in the past - and nobody is beating this drum any more, other than to point out where statements such as yours are incorrect.

Next year, with the elections for the Scottish Parliament, we will see the real depth of support for the SNP. I wouldn't want to call anything, but the odds don't look good for either Labour or the Lib Dems. Couple this with a possible split through the UK of allegiance towards the EU, and the discontent may ramp up further.

This is a hopelessly tangled situation, guaranteed to make everyone unhappy in all areas of the UK, regardless of where their affiliations lie. Such a close call in the referendum results was the worst thing for stability.

Oh diddums, we lost and they didn't fight fair.

The 45% who voted and voted for us could see through all this. The 55% who voted and voted against us were easily mislead and frightened.

Typical SNP attitude and why 55% of sensible intelligent Scots who voted rejected the idea of splitting from the UK and being a single country under SNP rule,

The only people who fear another referendum are the no side.

They fear it as they threw the kitchen sink at the last referendum and just snuck through - they know the next time it's all over.

[7by7]

<snip>

No matter how binding you think the 2014 referendum was, the fact remains that almost half of Scots want to break up the UK. Unless our government can do something to change that (and certainly neither Westminster nor the Labour party seem inclined to deviate from business as usual), then the separatists are only going to grow in strength and voice.

Actually, it was 44.7% of those who voted, which is 38.4% of those eligible to vote, not much over a third. Still a sizable number, I'll grant you, but calling it 'almost half' is stretching things a bit!

Surely the 13.4% who didn't bother to vote would have done so had they really wanted independence?

What is the point of Scottish independence if they are just going to join the EU anyway?

Hardly independence if they just become a colony of the EU. And joining the EU would undoubtedly require them to join the Euro. Is that really an attractive proposition? You would have to be insane to join the Euro.

If they can go down the Iceland route of independence then I would applaud it, but otherwise they are simply jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

(7by7 emphasis)

It is somewhat ironic that one of the many scare tactics used by the No campaign during the referendum was that Scotland would need to leave and reapply for EU membership which, according to Darling etc, would take years and likely be vetoed; now we are being told 'leave the UK and you will just be another EU vassal state'.

What is it that you don't understand about the word 'if?'

Anyway, the SNP said at the time that an independent Scotland would seek to join the EU. (Although they actually said 'remain in.' How you can remain in an organisation you are not a member of is beyond me!)

I have not seen that they have changed that policy.

[phrodan]

Let me give you a prime, recent example as to why the Scots and the Conservatives will never get along together.

The decision to refuse welfare support for people who have a third child is a government attempt at population control, Chinese in it's nature.

It's aimed directly at the poorest in UK society - those that would struggle to bring up a third child. That includes the working poor.

Who knows what that third child could be? a Doctor? a teacher?

Unlikely if you are living in the English electorate area -

As the third child of a poor parent, denied welfare support throughout your childhood, you would then have to take on over £50,000 of debt to gain a degree. In fact, that would be the case for all the children of the poor. Ridiculous - especially when the children of the middle class will have mummy and daddy paying for their education.

This, ladies and gentlemen - is the root of the dispute between the Scots electorate and the UK government.

We do not accept population control policies of this nature.

We do not accept the working poor being targeted.

We do not accept the talented children of the poor being denied University education.

We do not accept that being born poor is a life sentence.

I am amazed and shocked that the English electorate does accept it.

It will be policies such as this, and the bedroom tax, that will bring Scottish independence about.

Edited July 28, 2015 by phrodan

[phrodan]

<snip>

No matter how binding you think the 2014 referendum was, the fact remains that almost half of Scots want to break up the UK. Unless our government can do something to change that (and certainly neither Westminster nor the Labour party seem inclined to deviate from business as usual), then the separatists are only going to grow in strength and voice.

Actually, it was 44.7% of those who voted, which is 38.4% of those eligible to vote, not much over a third. Still a sizable number, I'll grant you, but calling it 'almost half' is stretching things a bit!

Surely the 13.4% who didn't bother to vote would have done so had they really wanted independence?

What is the point of Scottish independence if they are just going to join the EU anyway?

Hardly independence if they just become a colony of the EU. And joining the EU would undoubtedly require them to join the Euro. Is that really an attractive proposition? You would have to be insane to join the Euro.

If they can go down the Iceland route of independence then I would applaud it, but otherwise they are simply jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

(7by7 emphasis)

It is somewhat ironic that one of the many scare tactics used by the No campaign during the referendum was that Scotland would need to leave and reapply for EU membership which, according to Darling etc, would take years and likely be vetoed; now we are being told 'leave the UK and you will just be another EU vassal state'.

What is it that you don't understand about the word 'if?'

Anyway, the SNP said at the time that an independent Scotland would seek to join the EU. (Although they actually said 'remain in.' How you can remain in an organisation you are not a member of is beyond me!)

I have not seen that they have changed that policy.

That's a matter for the Scottish electorate.

The SNP policy is clear on this matter - they wish to remain within the EU.

That policy would be tested by election after independence.

I don't know why that is hard for people to fathom.

[RuamRudy]

Democracy was demonstrated by the holding of an election, with free and fair voting and the right to vote of all citizens of age. The fact a large portion of the population can't be bothered to vote and therefore get a majority government voted in by a minority is lamentable. But the right not to vote is as important as the right to vote. It's personal choice.

People in Scotland clearly lost faith in Labor and Liberals and have an historical dislike of Conservatives; so many voted SNP. Fair enough. In other parts of the country people also rejected Labor and Liberals but voted Conservative.

The British parliamentary system may well be in need of reform. The first past the post, the way constituencies are designed, the amount of centralized power etc. But, Scotland with it's tiny population will never be the big dog that decides how it is for everyone - despite the longing of some for it to be so. The whole point of a democracy is following the wishes of the majority.

If you look at how many people actually voted SNP and their disproportionate number of MP seats compared to other parties and number of votes they poled, then yes, it doesn't look democratic. And SNP supporters still whine on about how unfair it is even though they have been massively advantaged.

What will Sturgeon and Salmond propose next, lowering the voting age to 14 in any referendum? If they keep changing the rules they should get the desired result sooner or later and sod real democracy.

The SNP took 50% of the vote in Scotland at the election - they didn't get elected through dodgy constituencies and rigged boundaries. They took half the vote of the entire country!

Personally, I have never advocated that the tail wag the dog. It would be a ridiculous notion to do otherwise, but nor do I think that our democratic will should be snuffed out because we are in tow to whatever England decides.

50% of the vote in Scotland is gives them a disproportionately high number of seats in the UK parliament. So many would argue that the constituencies are designed doesn't give equal representation.

Had that not been the case, some Scots would still be whining about it. As usual keep the bits of the system that's to your advantage but change the other bits. How democratic.

How ever you cut and dice it, many people, not just Scots, won't be happy with whichever party is in power. That's democracy. If they don't like it they have to persuade more to vote for them or support changes. Taking the game ball and going home isn't an option just because you can't always get your own way, especially when you don't own the ball.

The SNP actively supported the PR changes that the Lib Dems championed - it was the Tories and Labour who stymied that because they are happy to gain from the inherent unfairness in our electoral system. That the SNP benefit from the unfair (yes I agree with your sentiment) system that they tried to change, is hardly something that they can be criticised for, is it?

[phrodan]

Democracy was demonstrated by the holding of an election, with free and fair voting and the right to vote of all citizens of age. The fact a large portion of the population can't be bothered to vote and therefore get a majority government voted in by a minority is lamentable. But the right not to vote is as important as the right to vote. It's personal choice.

People in Scotland clearly lost faith in Labor and Liberals and have an historical dislike of Conservatives; so many voted SNP. Fair enough. In other parts of the country people also rejected Labor and Liberals but voted Conservative.

The British parliamentary system may well be in need of reform. The first past the post, the way constituencies are designed, the amount of centralized power etc. But, Scotland with it's tiny population will never be the big dog that decides how it is for everyone - despite the longing of some for it to be so. The whole point of a democracy is following the wishes of the majority.

If you look at how many people actually voted SNP and their disproportionate number of MP seats compared to other parties and number of votes they poled, then yes, it doesn't look democratic. And SNP supporters still whine on about how unfair it is even though they have been massively advantaged.

What will Sturgeon and Salmond propose next, lowering the voting age to 14 in any referendum? If they keep changing the rules they should get the desired result sooner or later and sod real democracy.

The SNP took 50% of the vote in Scotland at the election - they didn't get elected through dodgy constituencies and rigged boundaries. They took half the vote of the entire country!

Personally, I have never advocated that the tail wag the dog. It would be a ridiculous notion to do otherwise, but nor do I think that our democratic will should be snuffed out because we are in tow to whatever England decides.

50% of the vote in Scotland is gives them a disproportionately high number of seats in the UK parliament. So many would argue that the constituencies are designed doesn't give equal representation.

Had that not been the case, some Scots would still be whining about it. As usual keep the bits of the system that's to your advantage but change the other bits. How democratic.

How ever you cut and dice it, many people, not just Scots, won't be happy with whichever party is in power. That's democracy. If they don't like it they have to persuade more to vote for them or support changes. Taking the game ball and going home isn't an option just because you can't always get your own way, especially when you don't own the ball.

The SNP actively supported the PR changes that the Lib Dems championed - it was the Tories and Labour who stymied that because they are happy to gain from the inherent unfairness in our electoral system. That the SNP benefit from the unfair (yes I agree with your sentiment) system that they tried to change, is hardly something that they can be criticised for, is it?

Don't annoy them with "true facts."

They can't handle it.

[RuamRudy]

But a referendum indicated that you did not want to.

Let us hope next time the concept is better planned......... because if you plan to retain the currency, for one, you should be seeking some form of permission from the current government.

At the moment I suspect a lot of English people would support the idea too.

I struggle to see how the concept is so confusing for many people - Scotland is an equal partner in the UK. Therefore Scotland is the current government, as is England, Wales and Northern Ireland. A union of countries owns the pound. It does not belong to any one of those countries.

It seems to have confused you.

The Bank of England is the central bank.

Who defines the interest rates?

I think the nomenclature is confusing you - the Bank of England does not simply represent England, just like Scotland Yard is not actually in Scotland. Of course there are issues that would need resolving around how interest rates would be set, but the pound belongs to me as much as it belongs to you.

That's simply not true and something Salmond always pretended could be automatically decided by Scotland alone. Not so. Scotland issues its own bank notes. Without a UK bail out there wouldn't be Royal Bank of Scotland.

The reality is it's not cut and dry or as anyone might assume, The SNP like to pretend they can tell the rest of the UK and the EU how it will be, lay down all the terms and tell everyone what to do. Bluff and poppycock,

RBS is a Scottish bank in name only, in the same way as Barclays, Lloyds etc are international in perspective. And the exchequer was happy to pay bailouts for other british banks, why not RBS?

[phrodan]

<snip>

No matter how binding you think the 2014 referendum was, the fact remains that almost half of Scots want to break up the UK. Unless our government can do something to change that (and certainly neither Westminster nor the Labour party seem inclined to deviate from business as usual), then the separatists are only going to grow in strength and voice.

Actually, it was 44.7% of those who voted, which is 38.4% of those eligible to vote, not much over a third. Still a sizable number, I'll grant you, but calling it 'almost half' is stretching things a bit!

Surely the 13.4% who didn't bother to vote would have done so had they really wanted independence?

What is the point of Scottish independence if they are just going to join the EU anyway?

Hardly independence if they just become a colony of the EU. And joining the EU would undoubtedly require them to join the Euro. Is that really an attractive proposition? You would have to be insane to join the Euro.

If they can go down the Iceland route of independence then I would applaud it, but otherwise they are simply jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

(7by7 emphasis)

It is somewhat ironic that one of the many scare tactics used by the No campaign during the referendum was that Scotland would need to leave and reapply for EU membership which, according to Darling etc, would take years and likely be vetoed; now we are being told 'leave the UK and you will just be another EU vassal state'.

What is it that you don't understand about the word 'if?'

Anyway, the SNP said at the time that an independent Scotland would seek to join the EU. (Although they actually said 'remain in.' How you can remain in an organisation you are not a member of is beyond me!)

I have not seen that they have changed that policy.

Your line about the 13.4% that didn't vote is the type of witless nonsense that we are well used to hearing in Scotland.

Democracy depends upon participation.

If you don't participate, you are what the Greeks called 5,000 years ago, "idioti."

If you are a true democrat, do yourself a favour and don't embarrass yourself by posting that dribble again.