How to stop/ slow down?

[pedro01]

I managed 4 months once nothing changed I was still an alcoholic in need of a drink.

As I told you read the book don't rewrite it. Many of us have done that only to wind up drunk. Any fool can copy. If you have it so well in hand why do you feel compelled to come on to a forum about people who drink to much you have no knowledge of the disease according to you all you do is read old medical reports. More than likely paid for by companies directly involved in selling Alcohol.

You are quite correct there are a lot more treatments around always has been. They even work for some people. But as you know having read the Big Book AA does not claim to be the only way. Just seems to have the best record. Part of that is because it recognizes alcoholism as a disease that you will always have if you are an Alcoholic. That one drink will set you off. They offer a program of recovery you know the one you quoted the first paragraph from. but conveniently omitted the one about what an order I can not go through with it. do not be discouraged no one among us has been able to maintain any thing like perfect adherence to these principals. Hope I got it rite am quoting from memory.

Edit

Your writing information AA is typical of all your other drivel. AA was founded in 1935 the book was written later and it was written by more than two people. One of who was a medical doctor sorry I don't know the professions of the others. I do know that several of them were professional men.

Now drink up we will always have a seat for you.

I have read the book.

I found much of it nonsense. I have no need to rewrite it. Much of it is damaging.

Many things in the book are non-science, hence I am quoting from medical research.

You on the other hand have 100% faith in everything that is written in that book. You are repeating it, without sparing a single thought for the damage you are doing. You will not hear that a single word in and old book could be wrong or that new research could have superseded anything in that book.

What you are saying is that the one medical doctor in that book is wiser than the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions which studied 43,000 alcoholics. You imply that this study must surely have been biased and paid for by the alcohol industry. You even call it an "old medical report" yet it was done in 2001-2002, which makes it much younger than your Big Book.

Do you understand how irrational you are being? "Science is biased, the book is the word". No amendments to the book are allowed. The book is perfect and science cannot ever prove anything in the book incorrect. You do know it's not the Koran, right?

So people - now you know how an "AA extremist" operates - approach with caution. Take the support from AA - it is the reason it has value.

Do not buy into the dogma or you will convince yourself you have a problem for life just as Big Carl has.

For reference, here is the study: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/74-78.htm

Here is the organization (National Institure of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism): http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

Their funding

NIAAA is the lead agency in the United States for research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health effects of alcohol. As a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, NIAAA is funded by the U.S. government.

Each year, NIAAA submits its budget request to NIH. This request is incorporated into the full NIH budget request, which is sent to the President for consideration. Congress then considers the President’s budget proposal and approves, modifies, or disapproves it. Once Congress finalizes the appropriate spending bill, appropriations are made to each government agency, including NIH.

As for AA having the best record - it does not, it has one of the poorest records - you know that full well because you know how many people come to meetings a few times and never return.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/news-events/news-noteworthy/nida-and-niaaa-commentary-strongly-supports-brain-disease-model

NIDA and NIAAA commentary strongly supports brain disease model of addiction

The brain disease model of addiction is strongly supported by scientific evidence, according to a commentary published today in The Lancet Psychiatry by NIDA Director Dr. Nora Volkow and NIAAA Director Dr. George Koob.

The two NIH Institute Directors point out that animal and human studies have shown that critical brain structures and behaviors are disrupted by chronic exposure to drugs and alcohol. These findings, along with ongoing research, are helping to explain how drugs and alcohol affect brain processes associated with loss of control, compulsive drug taking, inflexible behavior, and negative emotional states associated with addiction. Understanding these processes has already resulted in several effective medicines, as well as new and promising medication targets to treat drug and alcohol addiction. The authors add that this process of discovery within a disease framework has also led to the development of promising brain stimulation treatments and behavioral interventions, and has had a positive impact on public policy.

The commentary, co-authored by Nora D. Volkow, M.D., director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), and George Koob, Ph.D., director of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), was written in response to the Personal View article, by Wayne Hall and colleagues. NIDA and NIAAA are part of the National Institutes of Health.

Reference: “Brain disease model of addiction: why is it so controversial?” by Nora D. Volkow, M.D., Director, National Institute on Drug Abuse and George Koob, Ph.D., Director, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism published online July 29, 2015 in The Lancet Psychiatry. It will also appear in the August print issue of The Lancet Psychiatry journal.

For information on Drugs, Brains, and Behavior: The Science of Addiction: http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugs-brains-behavior-science-addiction/preface

Also see, Neuroscience: Pathways to Alcohol Dependence: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/AA77/AA77.pdf

For more information, contact the NIDA press office at [email protected] or 301-443-6245, or the NIAAA press office at [email protected]or 301-443-2857

That does not match the AA disease model. The history of which is here: http://www.bhrm.org/papers/AAand%20DiseaseConcept.pdf

AA describes alcoholics as people with a condition/allergy that prevents them from drinking like normal people. In other words, that these people are different from the offset, that they already have the condition before taking a drink.

A.A.’s early understanding of alcoholism came to it directly from Dr. William Duncan Silkworth, who viewed alcoholism as a manifestation of allergy. As set forth in “The Doctor’s Opinion” introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous, what A.A. learned from Dr. Silkworth was that: . . . the body of the alcoholic is quite as abnormal as his mind. It does not satisfy us to be told that we cannot control our drinking just because we were maladjusted to life, that we were in full flight from reality, or were outright mental defectives. These things were true to some extent, in fact, to a considerable extent with some of us. But we are sure that our bodies were sickened as well. In our belief, any picture of the alcoholic which leaves out this physical factor is incomplete. The doctor's theory that we have a kind of allergy to alcohol interests us. As laymen, our opinion as to its soundness may, of course, mean little. But as ex-alcoholics, we can say that his explanation makes good sense. It explains many things for which we cannot otherwise account.

The organisations above are discussing the impact of chronic alcohol abuse on the brain. A physical addiction, similar to all other physical addictions.

With the addiction model, after sufficient time away from the substance, you are no longer addicted. With the disease model - you had it before you took a drink, you will have it forever - hence the "one drink away from relapse" theory of AA.

[Johnniey]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

[pedro01]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

I'm not.

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

[big carl]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

I'm not.

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

To be honest I really don't understand how any one can have a 5% success rate and a 95% fail rate as you point out.

Where did you get your statistics at a bar? AA doesn't keep track of them.

I am a real alcoholic and my higher power God or what ever your alcohol soaked brain wants to call it has not cured me.

I am still an alcoholic with over 20 years continuous lack of alcohol.

Won't cure me darned if i know why it won't cure a 2 year old with cancer. Why don't you ask it? While you are asking ask why he won't cure me.

Now drink up and make sure you have enough at home for tomorrow until you can get to the bar. You see I know what I am talking about.

You have proven your self to be clueless and a complete waste of time. I will admit you have been amusing but now you are just boring.

Ta Ta I will keep your chair ready for you.

Edit

I forgot how to slow down you can always drink real fast and pass out or you can just not take one drink. Your choice.

Don't bother to try and answer we both know that only some one with the disease of Alcoholism can not take one drink safely.

[Johnniey]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

I'm not.

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

Here you go again obsessing about AA. Why not go to AA meetings and try to save people there?

Not only are you totally deluded but arrogant as well.

[GarryP]

I keep visiting this thread because I find the topic very interesting. What I don't understand is the people that say the only way to stop is AA. I do not believe this at all. The one size fits all just does not apply to alcoholism, as it does not apply to other addictions. In my case, I used to binge and I sincerely believe that for me total abstinence was the only way forward. This was my own decision and it was not pushed on me by anyone else. I used one session of hypnosis and voila. But I was determined. I found quitting cigarettes equally as easy, once I had decided quitting was what I really wanted.

Having said that, I know other people who have had severe drinking problems who have been able to get it under control. It seems to come down to willpower and a true desire to get the results they want.

AA is a very useful organization and helps a great many people, but like anything else it is not the holy grail in controlling addiction to alcohol. I believe that those who are successful in the AA route are successful because they really believe it is the only way for them. They have conditioned themselves that the only way they will quit is the AA route. Those that have not convinced themselves that they will succeed and who do not have an absolute desire to quit before actually joining have very little chance of coming away dry.

Basically, I would say follow the route that best suits you, whether it be AA, hypnosis, medication, other peer support groups, etc.

PS I still go to the pub and meet up with friends but have no desire to drink alcohol with them. It does not bother me in the slightest when surrounded by drinkers, unless they start getting silly (like I used to). That is, unlike many former alcoholics, I do not need to keep away from situations where alcohol is available. I can still have a good social life.

Apologies for the rambling post.

[Sawan Chan 7]

I keep visiting this thread because I find the topic very interesting. What I don't understand is the people that say the only way to stop is AA. I do not believe this at all. The one size fits all just does not apply to alcoholism, as it does not apply to other addictions. In my case, I used to binge and I sincerely believe that for me total abstinence was the only way forward. This was my own decision and it was not pushed on me by anyone else. I used one session of hypnosis and voila. But I was determined. I found quitting cigarettes equally as easy, once I had decided quitting was what I really wanted.

Having said that, I know other people who have had severe drinking problems who have been able to get it under control. It seems to come down to willpower and a true desire to get the results they want.

AA is a very useful organization and helps a great many people, but like anything else it is not the holy grail in controlling addiction to alcohol. I believe that those who are successful in the AA route are successful because they really believe it is the only way for them. They have conditioned themselves that the only way they will quit is the AA route. Those that have not convinced themselves that they will succeed and who do not have an absolute desire to quit before actually joining have very little chance of coming away dry.

Basically, I would say follow the route that best suits you, whether it be AA, hypnosis, medication, other peer support groups, etc.

PS I still go to the pub and meet up with friends but have no desire to drink alcohol with them. It does not bother me in the slightest when surrounded by drinkers, unless they start getting silly (like I used to). That is, unlike many former alcoholics, I do not need to keep away from situations where alcohol is available. I can still have a good social life.

Apologies for the rambling post.

Very interesting.

Were you in fact an alcoholic or a heavy drinker?

If you're not sure, there are tests.

Could you drink one glass then abstain for the rest of the day by choice. An alcoholic can't do this.

Did you suffer from delerium tremens? If not the chances are you weren't or aren't.

The word "alcoholic" is wrongly given to many who have drinking problems.

REAL alcoholic very rarely recover on their own.

I assure you that for an alcoholic to recover from booze is one thousand times harder than stopping smoking.

[GarryP]

I have done the tests on a number of alcohol related websites and they all indicated I was. Any more than three cans of beer and I was off until wasted. Black outs were the norm. Not knowing how I had got home or when, not remembering whole evenings. The shakes and sweats the next morning were not unheard of. But those were the binges, which happened every Friday night and Saturday (Sunday I would be wiped out all day). I just got fed up of ruining my health, wasting money, and losing days to hangovers. Enough was enough.

Ultimately, success comes down the individual's REAL desire to quit. It does not matter how much support one has, if you do not have that desire you will not succeed.

[impulse]

I keep visiting this thread because I find the topic very interesting. What I don't understand is the people that say the only way to stop is AA. I do not believe this at all.

Nobody is saying AA is the only way. (Edit: Full disclosure- I do believe that complete abstinence is the only 100% successful method for an alcoholic- but I don't believe that all problem drinkers are alcoholics)

But I'm not going to discuss methods that I don't have experience with. So I discuss AA because I have experience with it. Lots of us do.

And, as it happens, it worked for me. And a few thousand friends I've met along the way.

Your experience with hypnotism is of interest to me, as well. Because it appears to have worked for you.

I'm not really interested in (for example) the Sinclair Method, unless I hear it from someone who went through the process with an improved quality of life.

On an aside, one of my AA buddies many years ago was a counselor with a very expensive treatment center (Houston). He got disillusioned with the commercial aspects of the treatment business. One of his pet peeves? The way they calculated their success rate. They would call their former patients after 12 months and ask them if they had started drinking again. No face to face, no testing, just a phone call. Not surprisingly, they had a very high success rate.

[cumgranosalum]

Heavy drinker or alcoholic - I really don't think there is a difference. Most people don't do anything about drinking until they admit to THEMSELVES they have a problem. It takes self-knowledge before you can eve start.

My Italian father-in-law once told me he din't drink......I pointed out he's had over a litre of wine over lunch......"That's not drinking! I was eating" he retorted.

another thing is that it is unlikely unless you don't drink that you will realise that regardless of how much you drink, your life is totally dominated by alcohol. Society is geared up that way.

Another post indicated he had no problem being with friends while they drank.....so long as they didn't start getting "silly" just like he used to. I think a great way to start giving up is to spend one evening with your drinking mates whilst you are sober and then you'll realise what total prats they are......and SO ARE YOU when you drink.

what stopped me in the end was seeing the expats around Pattaya and places drinking - if you'e drunk and 25 years old, you are "silly" and it's hilarious and you recover.....to me there is nothing sadder than seeing 50, 60 and 70 year old men who are drunk and clearly have no idea how stupid they look as they sit in bars repeating the same old crap or stagger along the street oblivious of how others are seeing them. At 50 I decided that was NOT going to be me.

To give up you have at some point to break away from the endless influence of alcohol in every aspect of your life. I think many recidivist drinkers don't really come to terms with this - they think they can continue life in the same way, but without alcohol. Excuses like Heavy, social are just a smoke screen....don't waste your time trying to define alcoholism....just STOP doing whatever it is you think it is.

[GarryP]

Heavy drinker or alcoholic - I really don't think there is a difference. Most people don't do anything about drinking until they admit to THEMSELVES they have a problem. It takes self-knowledge before you can eve start.

My Italian father-in-law once told me he din't drink......I pointed out he's had over a litre of wine over lunch......"That's not drinking! I was eating" he retorted.

another thing is that it is unlikely unless you don't drink that you will realise that regardless of how much you drink, your life is totally dominated by alcohol. Society is geared up that way.

To give up you have at some point to break away from the endless influence of alcohol in every aspect of your life. I think many recidivist drinkers don't really come to erms with this - they think they can continue life in the same way, but without alcohol.

I know a number of people I strongly believe are alcoholics but they would never admit it to themselves. I agree, you have to acknowledge you have a problem before you can even start to attempt to solve it.

[cumgranosalum]

If you want to spot your alcoholic friends, just stop drinking......they will soon start up the same old song....

"go on, just have one"

"just to be sociable"

"You used to be fun"

The truth is they simply can't stand the thought that they are the only one who is drunk......having other drinkers around them justifies their own drink problem

[cumgranosalum]

I keep visiting this thread because I find the topic very interesting. What I don't understand is the people that say the only way to stop is AA. I do not believe this at all.

Nobody is saying AA is the only way. (Edit: Full disclosure- I do believe that complete abstinence is the only 100% successful method for an alcoholic- but I don't believe that all problem drinkers are alcoholics)

But I'm not going to discuss methods that I don't have experience with. So I discuss AA because I have experience with it. Lots of us do.

And, as it happens, it worked for me. And a few thousand friends I've met along the way.

Your experience with hypnotism is of interest to me, as well. Because it appears to have worked for you.

I'm not really interested in (for example) the Sinclair Method, unless I hear it from someone who went through the process with an improved quality of life.

On an aside, one of my AA buddies many years ago was a counselor with a very expensive treatment center (Houston). He got disillusioned with the commercial aspects of the treatment business. One of his pet peeves? The way they calculated their success rate. They would call their former patients after 12 months and ask them if they had started drinking again. No face to face, no testing, just a phone call. Not surprisingly, they had a very high success rate.

I would go as far as to say that ALL drinkers have a problem, regardless of how much they drink.......

[big carl]

I keep visiting this thread because I find the topic very interesting. What I don't understand is the people that say the only way to stop is AA. I do not believe this at all. The one size fits all just does not apply to alcoholism, as it does not apply to other addictions. In my case, I used to binge and I sincerely believe that for me total abstinence was the only way forward. This was my own decision and it was not pushed on me by anyone else. I used one session of hypnosis and voila. But I was determined. I found quitting cigarettes equally as easy, once I had decided quitting was what I really wanted.

Having said that, I know other people who have had severe drinking problems who have been able to get it under control. It seems to come down to willpower and a true desire to get the results they want.

AA is a very useful organization and helps a great many people, but like anything else it is not the holy grail in controlling addiction to alcohol. I believe that those who are successful in the AA route are successful because they really believe it is the only way for them. They have conditioned themselves that the only way they will quit is the AA route. Those that have not convinced themselves that they will succeed and who do not have an absolute desire to quit before actually joining have very little chance of coming away dry.

Basically, I would say follow the route that best suits you, whether it be AA, hypnosis, medication, other peer support groups, etc.

PS I still go to the pub and meet up with friends but have no desire to drink alcohol with them. It does not bother me in the slightest when surrounded by drinkers, unless they start getting silly (like I used to). That is, unlike many former alcoholics, I do not need to keep away from situations where alcohol is available. I can still have a good social life.

Apologies for the rambling post.

You are quite correct there are AA members who say it is the only way. They do not speak for AA.

They only speak for them selves they have an ego that makes them think they can speak for AA

and obviously like you have not read the book.. AA clearly states in their Big Book that they are not

the only way. It also states that many heavy drinkers if given a reason can stop. If will power was

all it took I would have been stopped long before I hit the doors of AA. I also tried religion.

It to has a success rate. But I am not a part of that succses rate any more than I am of

the will power method.

If you will read through the thread you will find others claiming success with other Methods.

It is only because AA has the most succses that they get attacked the most even though they

do not claim to be the only way. The cunning mind of the alcoholic.

One more thing not in the least interested in your perception of your friends or what they tell you

let them tell it.

EDIT

I no longer go to bars as the interest is not there. I worked in one town where they only had

one neighborhood pup. Every Friday I closed it down and never felt the need to drink.

When I returned home myself and a lady friend who liked to dance would go to the bars to dance.

Never felt the need to drink. At first I had no vehicle when I sobered up and got healthy enough to work.

My boss picked me up and took me home. One night he thought it would be a joke to stop in a bar where

many of the people in are industry gathered. One of these fellows had been known to shoot whiskey in to his blood stream like a Junkie. I said I no longer drank and continued with my 7 up.

Ten minutes later one of the fellows slammed his drink down got up and said well you are not missing

any thing and he left. The boss stopped at another bar and started in with the I admire you crap.

He knew me when I drank 6 years later he joined AA after going through a treatment center.

[pedro01]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

I'm not.

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

To be honest I really don't understand how any one can have a 5% success rate and a 95% fail rate as you point out.

Where did you get your statistics at a bar? AA doesn't keep track of them.

I am a real alcoholic and my higher power God or what ever your alcohol soaked brain wants to call it has not cured me.

I am still an alcoholic with over 20 years continuous lack of alcohol.

Won't cure me darned if i know why it won't cure a 2 year old with cancer. Why don't you ask it? While you are asking ask why he won't cure me.

Now drink up and make sure you have enough at home for tomorrow until you can get to the bar. You see I know what I am talking about.

You have proven your self to be clueless and a complete waste of time. I will admit you have been amusing but now you are just boring.

Ta Ta I will keep your chair ready for you.

Edit

I forgot how to slow down you can always drink real fast and pass out or you can just not take one drink. Your choice.

Don't bother to try and answer we both know that only some one with the disease of Alcoholism can not take one drink safely.

The success rate of AA is well published. There is plenty of research on line.

As for you higher power. It's will power by any other name.

Or of course, you could believe that you were genetically pre-programmed to become addicted to what everybody else understands is an addictive substance and God stopped working on child cancer victims to help you out.

In effect - the higher power was merely NLP to convince you to use willpower - but if you really thing God cares more about pissheads than kids with cancer - go ahead.

[pedro01]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

I'm not.

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

Here you go again obsessing about AA. Why not go to AA meetings and try to save people there?

Not only are you totally deluded but arrogant as well.

Because I would get kicked out when I mentioned that the people weren't diseased, didn't have a problem for life and didn't need God.

I'd be doing a favour for those that didn't fit the program but I'd be kicked out by devotees.

I think AA is good. it is a fantastic support group. Trouble is it comes with a lot of baggage that prevents the lovely people in AA from helping 19 out of 20 people.

And if you have been in AA for any length of time, then surely you know that so many people walk in that door but so few remain long term. As an AA member, you may tell yourself that they weren't ready or they weren't 'real alcoholics' - but then you negate the guts it took them to walk in the door that first time.

[pedro01]

I keep visiting this thread because I find the topic very interesting. What I don't understand is the people that say the only way to stop is AA. I do not believe this at all. The one size fits all just does not apply to alcoholism, as it does not apply to other addictions. In my case, I used to binge and I sincerely believe that for me total abstinence was the only way forward. This was my own decision and it was not pushed on me by anyone else. I used one session of hypnosis and voila. But I was determined. I found quitting cigarettes equally as easy, once I had decided quitting was what I really wanted.

Having said that, I know other people who have had severe drinking problems who have been able to get it under control. It seems to come down to willpower and a true desire to get the results they want.

AA is a very useful organization and helps a great many people, but like anything else it is not the holy grail in controlling addiction to alcohol. I believe that those who are successful in the AA route are successful because they really believe it is the only way for them. They have conditioned themselves that the only way they will quit is the AA route. Those that have not convinced themselves that they will succeed and who do not have an absolute desire to quit before actually joining have very little chance of coming away dry.

Basically, I would say follow the route that best suits you, whether it be AA, hypnosis, medication, other peer support groups, etc.

PS I still go to the pub and meet up with friends but have no desire to drink alcohol with them. It does not bother me in the slightest when surrounded by drinkers, unless they start getting silly (like I used to). That is, unlike many former alcoholics, I do not need to keep away from situations where alcohol is available. I can still have a good social life.

Apologies for the rambling post.

Very interesting.

Were you in fact an alcoholic or a heavy drinker?

If you're not sure, there are tests.

Could you drink one glass then abstain for the rest of the day by choice. An alcoholic can't do this.

Did you suffer from delerium tremens? If not the chances are you weren't or aren't.

The word "alcoholic" is wrongly given to many who have drinking problems.

REAL alcoholic very rarely recover on their own.

I assure you that for an alcoholic to recover from booze is one thousand times harder than stopping smoking.

Why are you trying to classify him?

He had the same problem we all have - drinking too much.

This is typical AA brainwashing to say that someone wasn't a "real" alcohlic.

Is that how you see 95% of people not return and pat yourselves on the back for doing a good job? To say "they didn't come back, they weren't real alkies".

[cumgranosalum]

looks to me as if there are some pretty hopeless deniers here....rather than confront their own problem, they are obsessed with trying to show how useless possible solutions are......why waste time and energy on that?

[pedro01]

looks to me as if there are some pretty hopeless deniers here....rather than confront their own problem, they are obsessed with trying to show how useless possible solutions are......why waste time and energy on that?

On the contrary...

We are showing people how surmountable the problem is.

How it can be overcome.

How it's not a life sentence.

Some on the other hand, want to condemn people to living on the knife edge of an imaginary disease.

It is bizarre how people cannot see how much better a support group AA would be if it didn't hang on to the dogma.

[Johnniey]

^^^

Why are you obsessed with AA? I never mentioned it. It's becoming clear what your agenda is and quite frankly, you are a pain in the arse.

Just leave AA alone - it has helped millions of 'hopeless' alkies recover. I've been to AA and assure you it doesn't say that you had the disease before you had a drink.

You pretend to know a lot about AA when you know nothing. You pretend to know a lot about other medical things but you know nothing. Do us all a favour and go out and have a few drinks and enjoy yourself!

I'm not.

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

Here you go again obsessing about AA. Why not go to AA meetings and try to save people there?

Not only are you totally deluded but arrogant as well.

Because I would get kicked out when I mentioned that the people weren't diseased, didn't have a problem for life and didn't need God.

I'd be doing a favour for those that didn't fit the program but I'd be kicked out by devotees.

I think AA is good. it is a fantastic support group. Trouble is it comes with a lot of baggage that prevents the lovely people in AA from helping 19 out of 20 people.

And if you have been in AA for any length of time, then surely you know that so many people walk in that door but so few remain long term. As an AA member, you may tell yourself that they weren't ready or they weren't 'real alcoholics' - but then you negate the guts it took them to walk in the door that first time.

Now doubt anything you say. Which AA meeting kicked you out for stating your beliefs? Be specific please.

[big carl]

Here you go again obsessing about AA. Why not go to AA meetings and try to save people there?

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

Not only are you totally deluded but arrogant as well.

Because I would get kicked out when I mentioned that the people weren't diseased, didn't have a problem for life and didn't need God.

I'd be doing a favour for those that didn't fit the program but I'd be kicked out by devotees.

I think AA is good. it is a fantastic support group. Trouble is it comes with a lot of baggage that prevents the lovely people in AA from helping 19 out of 20 people.

And if you have been in AA for any length of time, then surely you know that so many people walk in that door but so few remain long term. As an AA member, you may tell yourself that they weren't ready or they weren't 'real alcoholics' - but then you negate the guts it took them to walk in the door that first time.

Now doubt anything you say. Which AA meeting kicked you out for stating your beliefs? Be spec

He has a point there. It does come with ill informed baggage. He is a prime example of it. He has proven by his misinformed claims that the fact is he has never read the big book he knows nothing of its founding and how the big book came about or who wrote it and edited it. Yet he tries to let on that he knows it all. The fact that the cover says it is the basic text should be a clue that he needs to read it to know some thing about it.

But we let him come and go as he wishes. If he gets violent that is a different story. There has always been a perpetual slipper when you get large groups together. Every AA club I have belonged to has had them.

For clarity when I say we I am speaking for AA as a whole. There is only one condition it is called Tradition 3 the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking. It used to say HONEST DESIRE but they had to drop the honest to make room for people such as him.

[pedro01]

Duplicate post

[pedro01]

Duplicate Post

[pedro01]

Here you go again obsessing about AA. Why not go to AA meetings and try to save people there?

The subject of this thread is "how to stop/slow down"

We both know full well I know what I'm talking about. If I didn't - you would take me point by point. As it is - you just day "you don't know nuffink, man" - despite me being very specific about the sources of information I use.

So let's go here.... 2 simple questions

1 - As an AA member - with a 95% failure rate, how would you recommend he slow down?

2 - Why does your 'higher power' cure drunks but not babies with cancer?

I can answer both - can you?

Not only are you totally deluded but arrogant as well.

Because I would get kicked out when I mentioned that the people weren't diseased, didn't have a problem for life and didn't need God.

I'd be doing a favour for those that didn't fit the program but I'd be kicked out by devotees.

I think AA is good. it is a fantastic support group. Trouble is it comes with a lot of baggage that prevents the lovely people in AA from helping 19 out of 20 people.

And if you have been in AA for any length of time, then surely you know that so many people walk in that door but so few remain long term. As an AA member, you may tell yourself that they weren't ready or they weren't 'real alcoholics' - but then you negate the guts it took them to walk in the door that first time.

Now doubt anything you say. Which AA meeting kicked you out for stating your beliefs? Be spec

He has a point there. It does come with ill informed baggage. He is a prime example of it. He has proven by his misinformed claims that the fact is he has never read the big book he knows nothing of its founding and how the big book came about or who wrote it and edited it. Yet he tries to let on that he knows it all. The fact that the cover says it is the basic text should be a clue that he needs to read it to know some thing about it.

But we let him come and go as he wishes. If he gets violent that is a different story. There has always been a perpetual slipper when you get large groups together. Every AA club I have belonged to has had them.

For clarity when I say we I am speaking for AA as a whole. There is only one condition it is called Tradition 3 the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking. It used to say HONEST DESIRE but they had to drop the honest to make room for people such as him.

You seem to be an expert in what I have read and what I have not. Rather arrogant to claim someone is lying when they simply didn't come to the same conclusions as you after reading it. Send me your address and I'll send you my copy of your bible. You can have the NA one too if you like.

As for me being violent and dishonest is that two more to add to the large list of character flaws you are assigning to me? It wont work you know - these avoidance, accusation, belittling tactic. It is the realm of the small minded to attack the person and not the points they make.

If you were honest yourself, you'd be honest about the success rate of your group. 95% of people fail. Perhaps on reflection, if you are representative of a typical member, it's no shock that people don't return.

"how was your first AA meeting?"

"great - but I'm not going back, there was this overbearing a$$hat there banging on about God and terminal illnesses"

[Sawan Chan 7]

Now doubt anything you say. Which AA meeting kicked you out for stating your beliefs? Be spec

He has a point there. It does come with ill informed baggage. He is a prime example of it. He has proven by his misinformed claims that the fact is he has never read the big book he knows nothing of its founding and how the big book came about or who wrote it and edited it. Yet he tries to let on that he knows it all. The fact that the cover says it is the basic text should be a clue that he needs to read it to know some thing about it.

But we let him come and go as he wishes. If he gets violent that is a different story. There has always been a perpetual slipper when you get large groups together. Every AA club I have belonged to has had them.

For clarity when I say we I am speaking for AA as a whole. There is only one condition it is called Tradition 3 the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking. It used to say HONEST DESIRE but they had to drop the honest to make room for people such as him.

"how was your first AA meeting?"

"great - but I'm not going back, there was this overbearing a$$hat there banging on about God and terminal illnesses"

What do you mean? How was it great?

Do you want to quit drinking or not?

[Johnniey]

Now doubt anything you say. Which AA meeting kicked you out for stating your beliefs? Be spec

He has a point there. It does come with ill informed baggage. He is a prime example of it. He has proven by his misinformed claims that the fact is he has never read the big book he knows nothing of its founding and how the big book came about or who wrote it and edited it. Yet he tries to let on that he knows it all. The fact that the cover says it is the basic text should be a clue that he needs to read it to know some thing about it.

But we let him come and go as he wishes. If he gets violent that is a different story. There has always been a perpetual slipper when you get large groups together. Every AA club I have belonged to has had them.

For clarity when I say we I am speaking for AA as a whole. There is only one condition it is called Tradition 3 the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking. It used to say HONEST DESIRE but they had to drop the honest to make room for people such as him.

"how was your first AA meeting?"

"great - but I'm not going back, there was this overbearing a$$hat there banging on about God and terminal illnesses"

What do you mean? How was it great?

Do you want to quit drinking or not?

I think he means that the group he went to, there was one person talking a lot about God. There are no rues in AA. Certainly no requirement for a belief in God. I've been going to an AA meeting for 12 years, where I never hear the word God. 99% of the members are Buddhists and the official translated AA literature doesn't translate to the Thai word for God, rather "sing suk sid"

Pedro, you are welcome to attend, PM me for details. There is one requirement only, a desire to quit drinking.

I'm sure if I went to an AA meeting in the US bible belt there would be many talking of God as a higher power but not here in Thailand or Japan or a nuber of other countries/meetings.

[gerryBScot]

When it comes to AA our friend Pedro is a troll. He cannot quietly accept that AA is not to his liking and leave us to it. Like a baby in a pram he has to throw his toys out and cry, because he doesn't like or agree with how AA works, its underlying philosophy and worst of all, its perceived 5% success rate. Like many critics of AA, Pedro's dislike of AA is based on fear and ignorance dressed up as being underpinned by scientific evidence, as is the way of the world - what defined me as a practising alcoholic in large part was also fear and ignorance. My approach tries to be one of 'live and let live' - my hope is that people can stop killing themselves with alcohol under the guise of having a good time. I really don't care how that is done. I accept there is more than one way to skin a cat. AA works for me and many others. In a place like Thailand it is a very viable option because support services for those attempting to address an alcohol problem are thin on the ground. If you want to go Pedro's route of medication, therapy and controlled drinking, that is fine too. Whatever works for you ...

In the final analysis what does it for me is AA's extremely unscientific assertion that the number one offender for all alcoholics was resentment - the book says it kills more alcoholics than any other factor. That was my mental state as a practising alkie and to be honest I don't need to work very hard to be back to default. However when I heard folk in AA talk about resentment I knew I was in the right place because they were talking about me. I remember a nice middle class retired primary school teacher in S W London describing her resentment at discovering a pubic hair belonging to her lodger in the shower and what ensued over the next 72 hours; someone else came up with the unforgettable line: a resentment is taken not given; and another asked why would you let someone live rent free in your head? It's this stuff that sustains me in sobriety on a daily basis and I feel obliged to assert that today I am not obsessed with not drinking. I haven't had to practise any voodoo to get me on the right side of booze; I really don't think I'll drink today. I'm not saying only 15 hours until I go to bed when I can add another day to my count...

Life is far from perfect but in myself I am happy. I am in a loving relationship with two great kids. I support myself. I am productive. I am optimistic abut the future. 'Twas never thus. Good luck Pedro.

[cumgranosalum]

Surely posts vilifying something like AA say more about the poster themselves than anything they say about the alleged object?

[pedro01]

Now doubt anything you say. Which AA meeting kicked you out for stating your beliefs? Be spec

He has a point there. It does come with ill informed baggage. He is a prime example of it. He has proven by his misinformed claims that the fact is he has never read the big book he knows nothing of its founding and how the big book came about or who wrote it and edited it. Yet he tries to let on that he knows it all. The fact that the cover says it is the basic text should be a clue that he needs to read it to know some thing about it.

But we let him come and go as he wishes. If he gets violent that is a different story. There has always been a perpetual slipper when you get large groups together. Every AA club I have belonged to has had them.

For clarity when I say we I am speaking for AA as a whole. There is only one condition it is called Tradition 3 the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking. It used to say HONEST DESIRE but they had to drop the honest to make room for people such as him.

"how was your first AA meeting?"

"great - but I'm not going back, there was this overbearing a$$hat there banging on about God and terminal illnesses"

What do you mean? How was it great?

Do you want to quit drinking or not?

It was a joke based on Carls comments.

As for me, I no longer have a drinking problem. I just took another route to get there.

I did go to many meetings but it wasn't for me. I do think some of the things I was told at those meetings would have impeded my progress had I taken them at face value.

Sadly, some here will say that if you got free of booze another way, you never had a problem in the first place.

[pedro01]

When it comes to AA our friend Pedro is a troll. He cannot quietly accept that AA is not to his liking and leave us to it. Like a baby in a pram he has to throw his toys out and cry, because he doesn't like or agree with how AA works, its underlying philosophy and worst of all, its perceived 5% success rate. Like many critics of AA, Pedro's dislike of AA is based on fear and ignorance dressed up as being underpinned by scientific evidence, as is the way of the world - what defined me as a practising alcoholic in large part was also fear and ignorance. My approach tries to be one of 'live and let live' - my hope is that people can stop killing themselves with alcohol under the guise of having a good time. I really don't care how that is done. I accept there is more than one way to skin a cat. AA works for me and many others. In a place like Thailand it is a very viable option because support services for those attempting to address an alcohol problem are thin on the ground. If you want to go Pedro's route of medication, therapy and controlled drinking, that is fine too. Whatever works for you ...

In the final analysis what does it for me is AA's extremely unscientific assertion that the number one offender for all alcoholics was resentment - the book says it kills more alcoholics than any other factor. That was my mental state as a practising alkie and to be honest I don't need to work very hard to be back to default. However when I heard folk in AA talk about resentment I knew I was in the right place because they were talking about me. I remember a nice middle class retired primary school teacher in S W London describing her resentment at discovering a pubic hair belonging to her lodger in the shower and what ensued over the next 72 hours; someone else came up with the unforgettable line: a resentment is taken not given; and another asked why would you let someone live rent free in your head? It's this stuff that sustains me in sobriety on a daily basis and I feel obliged to assert that today I am not obsessed with not drinking. I haven't had to practise any voodoo to get me on the right side of booze; I really don't think I'll drink today. I'm not saying only 15 hours until I go to bed when I can add another day to my count...

Life is far from perfect but in myself I am happy. I am in a loving relationship with two great kids. I support myself. I am productive. I am optimistic abut the future. 'Twas never thus. Good luck Pedro.

Actually - the problem with AA, as I have said many times and as you have not refuted, is that it teaches things that are harmful.

Yes - I do quote scientific evidence because I do not believe that an invisible "higher power" is curing drunks and not kids with cancer. AA is a willpower based approach. There is no scientific evidence that higher powers exist. Willpower is all that is left.

I believe that alcohol is an addictive substance and that anyone can become an alcoholic because of what science teaches us about addiction. Anyone can become a heroin, nicotene or alcohol addict too.

Some of the things we know about addiction were unknowns when AA was founded but AA has not changed with this new found knowledge.

On this site, someone mentioned naltrexone and got shot down by the AA group with a comment "using a drug to cure an addiction won't work" and then there was a lot of discussion about benzo's. Fact is naltrexone has no high, it just takes some of the buzz away from beer, specifically related to endorphins which gradually de-addicts people with an 80% success rate. This approach ONLY works if you carry on drinking. By blocking opiod receptors you can drink but you are not stimulating the part of your brain that is addicted and the allure fades.

Perhaps AA is not harmful to the 5% that stick with it but certainly harmful for those that don't fit with AA but believe what AA taught them about their problem. It teaches people to live in a perpetual state of fear that they are just 1 drink away from a total relapse - which is total nonsense and not backed up by the science of addiction.

As for resentment - that is not a killer. Every person has different triggers for drinking. These come about because the process of becoming addicted is a process of learned behavior. So if you look at a picture of Mickey Mouse before every beer you have, then a picture of Mickey Mouse will lead to you wanting a beer. it is all about endorphins.

So yes - I do quote scientific facts, I do quote success and failure rates from peer reviewed studies (although the 5% comes from AA's own triennial studies) and AA members will say it's nonsense because it "worked for me God Dammit" - but you are one of the 5% of successes.

Bottom line is you should not buy into everything AA tells you. Especially stuff like "the only alternatives to AA are jails institutions or death". Repeating the same lies over and over again does not make them truths. Addiction is well understood nowadays and understanding addiction will put you on the path to recovery.

Teaching someone that they are powerless over Alcohol is dangerous and counterproductive. Following that up with "only God can help" is great if you are dealing with a spiritual person but what happens if someone believes your first statement - that they are powerless but not the second - that only God can help? They leave powerless with no solution.

At the end of the day - there is no small amount of selfishness here. We have people that succeeded with AA, knowing they are just 5% of people that walk through the door. They seem oblivious to, or simply don't care about the damage they might be doing to the 95% for who it doesn't fit.