Kerry calls for democracy as US flag is raised in Cuba

[Lite Beer]

Kerry calls for democracy as US flag is raised in Cuba
BRADLEY KLAPPER, Associated Press
MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN, Associated Press

HAVANA (AP) — Jubilant crowds waved American flags and chanted "Long live the United States!" as the Stars and Stripes rose over the newly reopened U.S. Embassy in Cuba on Friday after a half-century of often-hostile relations. Secretary of State John Kerry celebrated the day but also made an extraordinary, nationally broadcast call for democratic change on the island.

Hundreds of Cubans mixed with American tourists outside the former U.S. Interests Section, newly emblazoned with the letters "Embassy of the United States of America." They cheered as Kerry spoke, the United States Army Brass Quintet played "The Star-Spangled Banner" and U.S. Marines raised the flag alongside the building overlooking the famous Malecon seaside promenade.

Meeting more than 54 years after the severing of diplomatic relations, Kerry and Cuban Foreign Minister Bruno Rodriguez set an early September date for the start of talks on full normalization of a relationship so long frozen in enmity.

Not all the talk was as warm as the sunny summer day. Kerry and Rodriguez said their nations would continue to disagree over issues such as democracy and human rights. But they also said they hoped to make progress on issues ranging from maritime security and public health to the billions of dollars in dueling claims over confiscation of U.S. property and the U.S. economic embargo on the island.

It seemed that virtually all of Cuba was glued to television or listening by cellphone as Kerry directly addressed the island's people on political reform. That's a subject that has remained off-limits in Cuba even as the single-party government has implemented a series of economic reforms and re-established diplomatic ties with the U.S.

"We remain convinced the people of Cuba would be best served by a genuine democracy, where people are free to choose their leaders, express their ideas, practice their faith," Kerry said. He spoke before an audience of Cuban and U.S. diplomats on the embassy grounds and hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of islanders watching and listening live.

Addressing reporters with Kerry after the ceremony, Rodriguez responded by indignantly opening his remarks with complaints of U.S. human rights transgressions — from police shootings of black men to mistreatment of prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. naval base that Cuba says must be returned.

"Cuba isn't a place where there's racial discrimination, police brutality or deaths resulting from those problems," Rodriguez said. "The territory where torture occurs and people are held in legal limbo isn't under Cuban jurisdiction."

Many Cubans disagree with that assessment, including Afro-Cubans who say discrimination is still rampant despite the revolution's egalitarian ideals, and human rights groups who say regular, short-term arrests of government opponents aim to intimidate dissent and include beatings.

In New York, Republican presidential contender Marco Rubio, a Cuban-American senator from Florida, said he would reverse the Obama administration's new Cuba policy on his first day in office, arguing it gives the Castro government international legitimacy and more resources to repress its people.

Kerry acknowledged that the Obama administration would have a difficult fight in Congress to end the U.S. trade embargo of Cuba so that normal business ties between the two countries could resume.

"There is no way Congress will lift the embargo if we are not making progress on issues of conscience," Kerry said.

President Barack Obama also called for change in Cuba when he announced the new U.S. policy of engagement in December, but his words were less pointed than Kerry's in Havana.

Cuba formally reopened its Washington embassy last month. The U.S. raised its flag in Havana then, too, though saving the formal ceremony for Kerry's visit. Three Marines who took part in the flag-lowering in 1961 handed over the new flag to Marines who raised it on Friday.

Kerry was the first secretary of state to visit since 1945, and his speech was remarkable for its bluntness and the national spotlight in which it came.

Many Cubans lauded Kerry's call for reform, including greater access to technology on an island with one of the world's lowest rates of internet penetration. They paired their praise with calls for the United States to lift the 53-year-old trade embargo and allow easier travel between the two countries.

"More democracy, elections, we hope for that to come with this diplomatic opening," said Julio Garcia, a 51-year-old mechanic.

Self-employed graphic designers Danay Lopez, 28, and her husband Yosvel Martinez, 32, watched the ceremony with their 3-year-old son, singing both countries' national anthems and shouting "Long live Cuba!" and "Long live the United States!" as the event drew to a close.

"Kerry spoke about democracy, freedom, Wi-Fi, and he's right," Lopez said. "We want all that to be freed up, but (also) for the U.S. to free up travel, and I don't want my son to live under the embargo."

Like Obama, Kerry said a longtime U.S. strategy of trying to isolate Cuba and provoke regime change by choking off trade and fomenting grass-roots agitation had failed.

"It would be equally unrealistic to expect normalizing relations to have a transformative impact in the short term," he said. "After all, Cuba's future is for Cubans to shape."

After speaking to reporters with Rodriguez, Kerry briefly walked Old Havana's historic Plaza de San Francisco with Havana City Historian Eusebio Leal, stopping to look in shops and greet local residents and store owners before heading to an afternoon flag-raising at the home of the embassy's chief of mission.

He addressed a group of diplomats, Cuban-Americans and advocates of diplomacy with Cuba before a trio of Marines raised the Stars and Stripes in the stately home's back garden. The event was attended by dissidents including Jose Daniel Ferrer, Miriam Leiva and Yoani Sanchez, who tweeted a selfie with Kerry and a photo of the secretary of state meeting privately with a group of dissidents.

The dissidents were not invited to the embassy ceremony, avoiding tensions with Cuban officials who typically boycott events attended by the country's small political opposition.

Soon after Kerry was heading home Friday evening, diplomats who negotiated the July 20 embassy reopening will launch full-time into discussing how to bring about measures such as re-establishing direct flights and mail service.

___

Associated Press writers Anne-Marie Garcia and Andrea Rodriguez in Havana contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-08-15

[willyumiii]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

[kamarada]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

Do you mean, why don't they respect the freedom of despots to stay in power forever?

[Tywais]

[IMA_FARANG]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

------------------------------

I am a U.S. citizen also.

I am also a historian.

I had a native born U.S. Japanese American friend whose parents were detained at a camp in Arizona during world war two simply because they were of Japanese extraction.

Thousands od U.S. born Japanese American U.S. citizens were rounded uo and taken to "detention camps" in 1942 as possible Japanese agents.

There only "crime" was that somewhere in history their family was at one time Japanese.

Never forget, that is the "reality" of "democracy" in the U.S.

Freedom is never free, it always has to be earned.....often by the suffering of those including American citizens.... whose government for some reason decides to deny them that right to "democracy".

No matter what the Politicians say.... that is the reality of "democracy" in the history of the U.S.

[willyumiii]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

------------------------------

I am a U.S. citizen also.

I am also a historian.

I had a native born U.S. Japanese American friend whose parents were detained at a camp in Arizona during world war two simply because they were of Japanese extraction.

Thousands od U.S. born Japanese American U.S. citizens were rounded uo and taken to "detention camps" in 1942 as possible Japanese agents.

There only "crime" was that somewhere in history their family was at one time Japanese.

Never forget, that is the "reality" of "democracy" in the U.S.

Freedom is never free, it always has to be earned.....often by the suffering of those including American citizens.... whose government for some reason decides to deny them that right to "democracy".

No matter what the Politicians say.... that is the reality of "democracy" in the history of the U.S.

I know a Japanese American who was born in a concentration camp in California during WWII.

His family lost everything they had worked for and their freedom for the crime of being born in Japan and then becoming good American citizens.

Land of the free?

Only for the privileged of the correct color and religion.

P.S. It is getting worse.

[willyumiii]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

Do you mean, why don't they respect the freedom of despots to stay in power forever?

What I mean is that the US has no right to tell anyone who is not American how to live their lives.

Other people have the right to work out their own problems...or not!

Period!

[craigt3365]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

With respect, I'm confused. In my readings, this is exactly what the US wants. Freedom of speech and freedom to choose your own destiny. Right????

Some may argue the US is not democratic. Yes, there are many flaws. But the politicians are elected by the population. For better or worse.

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.

[geriatrickid]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

------------------------------

I am a U.S. citizen also.

I am also a historian.

I had a native born U.S. Japanese American friend whose parents were detained at a camp in Arizona during world war two simply because they were of Japanese extraction.

Thousands od U.S. born Japanese American U.S. citizens were rounded uo and taken to "detention camps" in 1942 as possible Japanese agents.

There only "crime" was that somewhere in history their family was at one time Japanese.

Never forget, that is the "reality" of "democracy" in the U.S.

Freedom is never free, it always has to be earned.....often by the suffering of those including American citizens.... whose government for some reason decides to deny them that right to "democracy".

No matter what the Politicians say.... that is the reality of "democracy" in the history of the U.S.

I know a Japanese American who was born in a concentration camp in California during WWII.

His family lost everything they had worked for and their freedom for the crime of being born in Japan and then becoming good American citizens.

Land of the free?

Only for the privileged of the correct color and religion.

P.S. It is getting worse.

When one has the benefit of time, hindsight will always offer an opportunity to criticize strategies taken during a time of chaos and calamity.

[chuckd]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

------------------------------

I am a U.S. citizen also.

I am also a historian.

I had a native born U.S. Japanese American friend whose parents were detained at a camp in Arizona during world war two simply because they were of Japanese extraction.

Thousands od U.S. born Japanese American U.S. citizens were rounded uo and taken to "detention camps" in 1942 as possible Japanese agents.

There only "crime" was that somewhere in history their family was at one time Japanese.

Never forget, that is the "reality" of "democracy" in the U.S.

Freedom is never free, it always has to be earned.....often by the suffering of those including American citizens.... whose government for some reason decides to deny them that right to "democracy".

No matter what the Politicians say.... that is the reality of "democracy" in the history of the U.S.

As a self proclaimed historian, you should also be aware the internment camps began in early 1942, over 73 years ago.

It was a dark page in US history but that's exactly what it is...a dark page in history

---------------------------------------------------------------------

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 18, 1999

Wwii Reparations: Japanese-American Internees

The Justice Department closed the books this week on a $1.6 billion reparations program for ethnic Japanese interned in American camps during World War II, and will settle with 181 ethnic Japanese from Latin America who suffered similar treatment.

The redress program made $20,000 payments to 82,210 Japanese Americans or their heirs, department officials said yesterday. Under a federal court settlement approved last month, the balance of the fund was left over to make $5,000 payments to Latin American Japanese.

http://www.democracynow.org/1999/2/18/wwii_reparations_japanese_american_internees

[chuckd]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

[Linky]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

Do you mean, why don't they respect the freedom of despots to stay in power forever?

Those despots were what was keeping the middle east under some sort of control. Hows democracy been working in Iraq and Afghanistan since the US decided it knew better.

[Linky]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

And nor should they move a millimetre

[craigt3365]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

And nor should they move a millimetre

So you agree with Cuba's human rights record??? I think the request to treat their citizens better is an admirable one.

P.S. Cuban-Americans have gotten very powerful over the years. They have a major influence on the government now. And most are exiles from their home country. With a very bad experience with the current government.

[chuckd]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

And nor should they move a millimetre

Then, pray tell, why is the infamous duo of Obama/Kerry going through this charade?

My guess is they are scatter shooting legacy attempts to see if something finally sticks.

[Linky]

Maybe because they understand they have relations with worse countries.

[willyumiii]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

With respect, I'm confused. In my readings, this is exactly what the US wants. Freedom of speech and freedom to choose your own destiny. Right????

Some may argue the US is not democratic. Yes, there are many flaws. But the politicians are elected by the population. For better or worse.

Yes, you are confused.

The population in USA does not elect the politicians.

The population chooses representatives, or delegates, who may or may not vote for what the population wants them to vote for.

This is the difference between a democracy and a republic.

This is also how some polititians obtain office without winning the popular vote in America.

Most Americans do not even realize that they live under a republic and not a democracy...many do not know the difference.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been removed.

[AlexRRR]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

Cuba is a sovereign state, a one party state like China and Vietnam, there internal affairs are just that, why do the US government insist on dictating to others what they consider to be correct?

Good idea if they concentrate and clean up there own house first then they can be a model to the rest of the world.

[ABCer]

USA flag goes up in Cuba. Kerry speaks of Democracy.

When 54 years back USA flag was going down in Cuba - I'm sure somebody was talking of Democracy.

Cubanos are poor but very happy people. They should be very, very careful!

I'm trying to recall one small country where local people became richer or happier with help of Americans talking of Democracy.

Hope I'm not veering off-topic too much.

[willyumiii]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

So, does this mean that in order to be good neighbors, one needs to be dominate and one submissive?

I'm happy to not live in that neighborhood!

[Jingthing]

It was so cool that the original marines were there to do this.

[craigt3365]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

With respect, I'm confused. In my readings, this is exactly what the US wants. Freedom of speech and freedom to choose your own destiny. Right????

Some may argue the US is not democratic. Yes, there are many flaws. But the politicians are elected by the population. For better or worse.

Yes, you are confused.

The population in USA does not elect the politicians.

The population chooses representatives, or delegates, who may or may not vote for what the population wants them to vote for.

This is the difference between a democracy and a republic.

This is also how some polititians obtain office without winning the popular vote in America.

Most Americans do not even realize that they live under a republic and not a democracy...many do not know the difference.

Hmmm....last time I voted, I voted for a politician that eventually got elected to office. And some of what they campaigned on, actually happened. If they don't do in office what you like, in 2-4 years, you can vote for another one. For better or worse, it's called democracy.

At least you are not stuck with a dictator for 40 years who does nothing to help you and your country progress. Only live a luxurious lifestyle while you don't.

I think we are on the same line. It's not perfect, but I'll take "democracy" over communism any day. Well, unless I was high up in government office! On of the select few.

I do understand what a republic is. A different topic.

[nidieunimaitre]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

With respect, I'm confused. In my readings, this is exactly what the US wants. Freedom of speech and freedom to choose your own destiny. Right????

Some may argue the US is not democratic. Yes, there are many flaws. But the politicians are elected by the population. For better or worse.

Yes, you are confused.

The population in USA does not elect the politicians.

The population chooses representatives, or delegates, who may or may not vote for what the population wants them to vote for.

This is the difference between a democracy and a republic.

This is also how some polititians obtain office without winning the popular vote in America.

Most Americans do not even realize that they live under a republic and not a democracy...many do not know the difference.

Hmmm....last time I voted, I voted for a politician that eventually got elected to office. And some of what they campaigned on, actually happened. If they don't do in office what you like, in 2-4 years, you can vote for another one. For better or worse, it's called democracy.

At least you are not stuck with a dictator for 40 years who does nothing to help you and your country progress. Only live a luxurious lifestyle while you don't.

I think we are on the same line. It's not perfect, but I'll take "democracy" over communism any day. Well, unless I was high up in government office! On of the select few.

I do understand what a republic is. A different topic.

QUOTE:

At least you are not stuck with a dictator for 40 years who does nothing to help you and your country progress. Only live a luxurious lifestyle while you don't

UNQUOTE

Strange.... Cuba has a higher GDP per capita than Thailand, even in spite of the embargo.

And it would be hard to believe that the income distribution in Cuba is more inequal than in Thailand.

[samran]

Yet despite all of Obama's rhetoric or Kerry's flowery speeches, this is what the Cuban position is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Cuba says won't move 'one millimeter' to placate enemies in U.S.

Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:42pm EDT

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuba's lead negotiator in talks with Washington told Reuters on Friday that the island's internal affairs would never be on the table and Havana would never move "one millimeter" to placate enemies in the United States.

"Decisions on internal matters are not negotiable and will never be put on the negotiating agenda in conversations with the United States," Josefina Vidal, director of U.S. affairs for the Cuban Foreign Ministry, said in an exclusive interview.

"Cuba will never do absolutely anything, not move one millimeter, to try to respond," she said after U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said in Havana that the U.S. Congress was unlikely to ever lift a punishing economic embargo on Cuba unless the Communist government improved its human rights record.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCAKCN0QJ2D920150814

And nor should they move a millimetre

Then, pray tell, why is the infamous duo of Obama/Kerry going through this charade?

My guess is they are scatter shooting legacy attempts to see if something finally sticks.

I'm sure if the Internet was available to you back in the 90s, you'd be belittling reestablishment of ties with Vietnam and telling us when finishing off sadam would be a wise thing.

[craigt3365]

QUOTE:

At least you are not stuck with a dictator for 40 years who does nothing to help you and your country progress. Only live a luxurious lifestyle while you don't

UNQUOTE

Strange.... Cuba has a higher GDP per capita than Thailand, even in spite of the embargo.

And it would be hard to believe that the income distribution in Cuba is more inequal than in Thailand.

GDP is not a good indicator for personal wealth. This one is better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

But yes, both Thailand and Cuba are poor countries. At least for part of the population.

[nidieunimaitre]

QUOTE:

At least you are not stuck with a dictator for 40 years who does nothing to help you and your country progress. Only live a luxurious lifestyle while you don't

UNQUOTE

Strange.... Cuba has a higher GDP per capita than Thailand, even in spite of the embargo.

And it would be hard to believe that the income distribution in Cuba is more inequal than in Thailand.

GDP is not a good indicator for personal wealth. This one is better:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

But yes, both Thailand and Cuba are poor countries. At least for part of the population.

From your source:

WORLD BANK

Thailand 14.394 "international dollar"

Cuba 18.796 "international dollar"

Since you know both Thailand and Cuba from personal experience, where do you think the distribution of income is more egalitarian?

[craigt3365]

I've been thinking about this a bit. I live here, so know Thailand better. I've only spent a month in Cuba, but did travel around a lot and as I've said, know a few locals fairly well.

Havana is a beat up, run down city. It's falling apart. I love it, but it is light years away from Bangkok. It's not even as sophisticated as HCMC or Hanoi. Both of which I consider 20 years or so behind cities here. IMHO.

I've spent time with locals here in their villages. Same in Cuba. The standard of living is way higher here than in Cuba. There are NO nice housing estates there. Lots of great old buildings, but they are just that. Very old buildings and most not properly maintained. Yes, there are a few new buildings, but not many. Can't blame the US entirely for this as a large numbers of foreigners visit this island every year. They are free to come and go, no travel restrictions. With that being said, Haiti has OK relations with the US and it's still a 3rd world country. I think the blame lies with the government. They are ultimately responsible for the health of their country, right?

Not sure what to say. But in my experience, if I was very poor, I'd prefer to be here. Apples to apples. No comparison.

[h90]

I am always baffled when the USA, a republic, wants other countries to become democracies!

If the US ( my country ) really believes in freedom, why don't they respect the freedom of others to chose their own form of government?

Do you mean, why don't they respect the freedom of despots to stay in power forever?

If it is one despot or a few oligarchs who let the public vote for a nominee isn't that much different. Just a more advanced version of dictatorship, giving the people the feeling they can change something.