Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[scorecard]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

Now, run, run, run for your life, Dr. Porthip,... the mafia is gonna witch hunt you now....

could not understand her defending the gt200 bomb detectors but her courage in the KT trial is a great start towards forgiveness.

Somewhat off topic but many other countries got sucked into buying these 'bomb detectors'.

Back to the topic, certainly hope this will bring a swift end to the trial and full acquittal and compensation, but as they say 'it's not over until the fat lady sings'.

[balo]

So they should walk I would guess

Why should they? If the prosecution was using a DNA match between the two defendants and the murder weapon yes they should. But that's not what they are basing their case on, the DNA results could be from any other person that handled the hoe before or after the murders.

We have now confirmed that the DNA from the hoe did not belong to the B2. Yes maybe they should walk and that would be the end of the story but still they could be involved in some way, they are still a part of this mystery.

And please stay on topic this time , before you consider attacking "RTP defenders".

Just out of interest, what is there left to defend? Can't see any normal reasoning person finding the RTP's case remotely credible in this case. And also, to allege that the B2 are still a part of the mystery is pure speculation, unless of course, because they were hand-picked to be scapegoats instead of others.

The blood found on the hoe does not match the Burmese guys, it's now been confirmed and we can call it facts . That's great news for everyone following this case where speculations has been all over the social media.

But it does not tell us anything about who the killer is and who was involved in this , or maybe if they were only observers . Let's wait for the verdict first , in October. Still many days left of the trial .

[Rykbanlor]

SO it's been noted by other posters, and by the tweet from Jonah Fisher, that actually the important DNA comes from the body, which is all well and good, but even if the Hoe is not the focus of this, for gofs sake, it's stated as the main murder weapon, so if the B2 Dna ain't on it, regardless of all the other "evidence: the prosecution has, their case still appears to be all wrong. Ridiculous.

[ronwparker]

I just knew the RTP had framed them .

Very few people believed they were guilty around the world.

Sadly this had even further damaged the reputation of Thailand!

I hope theyb are freed immediately

Ron

Edited September 11, 2015 by metisdead
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[stephenterry]

Clearly, Jonah Fisher BBC is not up to speed. The RTP have not validated or substantiated their assertion that the DNA found on the victim matches the B2. They have asserted that, only, and they have not provided the defence with any samples (despite the court order) to make an independent test.

Not that the defence need that - according to their recent statement, they have enough to disprove the RTP's case.

[Rykbanlor]

Just out of interest, what is there left to defend? Can't see any normal reasoning person finding the RTP's case remotely credible in this case. And also, to allege that the B2 are still a part of the mystery is pure speculation, unless of course, because they were hand-picked to be scapegoats instead of others.

The blood found on the hoe does not match the Burmese guys, it's now been confirmed and we can call it facts . That's great news for everyone following this case where speculations has been all over the social media.

But it does not tell us anything about who the killer is and who was involved in this , or maybe if they were only observers . Let's wait for the verdict first , in October. Still many days left of the trial .

And unless the police try to determine whose dna is on the hoe we never will. Regardless of what other DNA evidence the prosecution claim to have, if they don't proactively find out the source of the DNA on the hoe, then it's all a balls up, which it is anyway.

[StevieDee]

Can we please go back and get the Mafioso family that runs the island DNA tested now?

I think this has been on the cards for a while. Let's see how serious the PM is now about wiping out corruption!

[steven100]

Let them go now, it is plain as day that these two Burmese lads are just scapegoats, the sad thing is the real killers are still out there.

Agreed - with compensation !

And then find the best lawyer they can and sue the *ss off those responsible for a false arrest based on inconclusive evidence, defamation and whatever else he can throw at them ......

I would make this my number one priority !!!

[miamiman]

Thank you Dr. Porthip for your honesty. Buddha will certainly bless your life.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Really no big surprises here. The RTP already gave testimony in court that they moved the body (David) for fear it might be washed away but the tide. Whether that was the right thing to do or not I don't know. But it does sound like a plausible reason to do so. It was never claimed the Hannah's Body was moved.

As to the garden hoe it is also known that the hoe was moved after the murders. The partially blind gardener (Beach Cleaner) already admitted he did in court. It then would not be considered unusual that his finger prints may have been on the hoe, although that was never proved by either side as far as I know. Since the hoe was moved I suppose anyone could have touched it.

This would have had much more significance if the hoe was found at the murder scene untouched, but it wasn't. Anyone could have touched it after that and the gardener already admitted he did. It is more likely that the hoe was thrown in the ocean and was washed. Based on that only a trace amount of Hannah' s Blood was found on the hoe. When you consider that if this was the murder weapon, and the blood splatter on the nearby rocks, there should have been more blood on it, that is unless it was washed off first.

The most damning evidence has been the DNA linking the accused to Hannah. To my knowledge this hasn't been disproved yet. If the Defense Team can do that, than fine. If they cannot then, but show reasonable doubt, then I am not sure.

[steelepulse]

As OJ Simpson's lawyer once famously said " If the DNA doesn't fit, you must acquit".

[NanLaew]

Under the Thai criminal procedure code, the judge cannot stop the case and enter a dismissal. That process is called a directed verdict or nonsuit, and doesn't exist in Thailand. The judge must hear all the testimony and evidence before rendering a verdict. Even in modern judicial systems, a directed verdict is only entered if the prosecution failed to establish all of the elements of the crime in its prima facie case.

Dr. Pornthip is only an expert witness for the defense. The judge is the factfinder and has to decide the facts, including resolving any conflicts in the testimony provided by the expert witnesses for both sides. In modern judicial systems, it is the norm to have expert witnesses conflict on their testimony. I think most of the posters here think that Dr. Pornthip is some type of independent, court-appointed expert. She is not. She is a hired gun, like any expert witness.

As for the hoe, I'm not even convinced it was the murder weapon. I think there is equally as great a chance that the victims were already dead, and they were posthumously bludgeoned with the hoe (to cover up the real perpetrator, aka "a set up"). In any event, the hoe was not secured by the police, and any evidence that could be taken from it was contaminated and unreliable.

I'm not sure there was ever testimony from the police officer who actually removed samples from the victims' bodies and the chain of custody in taking that evidence for testing. To me, and I've been a lawyer for 20 years, that would be the only probative evidence in the case. The rest of the prosecution's case was a sham - it reminded me a lot of the prosecution's case in the OJ Simpson trial. Put everything into evidence, and see if it sticks.

Well, RTP can walk away from this and say they gave it their best shot. The investigation was botched from the start, and whether, like the Erawan bombing, this is due to incompetence, or police officers on the take, we will never know.

An absolutely spot-on synopsis IMHO.

[The Deerhunter]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

Now, run, run, run for your life, Dr. Porthip,... the mafia is gonna witch hunt you now....

What again? She has been there before, more than once, finding proof of violent death (murder) where the police said accident, suicide or natural causes.

Edited September 11, 2015 by The Deerhunter

[apalink_thailand]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

Now, run, run, run for your life, Dr. Porthip,... the mafia is gonna witch hunt you now....

Its not her first time. She has always been the thorn in the RTP's side. Damn good Doctor and thankfully we have her.

[Rykbanlor]

Really no big surprises here. The RTP already gave testimony in court that they moved the body (David) for fear it might be washed away but the tide. Whether that was the right thing to do or not I don't know. But it does sound like a plausible reason to do so. It was never claimed the Hannah's Body was moved.

As to the garden hoe it is also known that the hoe was moved after the murders. The partially blind gardener (Beach Cleaner) already admitted he did in court. It then would not be considered unusual that his finger prints may have been on the hoe, although that was never proved by either side as far as I know. Since the hoe was moved I suppose anyone could have touched it.

This would have had much more significance if the hoe was found at the murder scene untouched, but it wasn't. Anyone could have touched it after that and the gardener already admitted he did. It is more likely that the hoe was thrown in the ocean and was washed. Based on that only a trace amount of Hannah' s Blood was found on the hoe. When you consider that if this was the murder weapon, and the blood splatter on the nearby rocks, there should have been more blood on it, that is unless it was washed off first.

The most damning evidence has been the DNA linking the accused to Hannah. To my knowledge this hasn't been disproved yet. If the Defense Team can do that, than fine. If they cannot then, but show reasonable doubt, then I am not sure.

This damning DNA evidence of yours that links the accused to the victim, is this the same lot that has only been confirmed verbally by a cop, and not actually available to examine?

Also as far as I heard, the washing of the hoe is a moot point, as it has been claimed it was both washed and not washed. It still had blood on it though, so it can't have been washed very well.

[StevieDee]

If this revelation proves to be the final straw that breaks the camel's back confirming corruption within the police and posts held by public servants in Thailand at least their unfortunate and sad deaths were not in vain.

[Tatsujin]

Can we please go back and get the Mafioso family that runs the island DNA tested now?

I think this has been on the cards for a while. Let's see how serious the PM is now about wiping out corruption!

Given that the "PM" already stated this was a "perfect case", I don't see the "PM" making much of a difference in the long term. It all seems to be short term fixes including transfers etc, with very few terminations of employment (as per the norm), just more of the usual shuffling people around and getting rid of the opposition whilst installing their own "yes" men to continue the gravy train.

TiT ... nothing changes much in a land where "justice", "right and wrong", "morals" etc simply do not exist.

[The Deerhunter]

Thank you Dr. Porthip for your honesty. Buddha will certainly bless your life.

He has already,. She is a recovered cancer survivor, twice now, i think. A great lady. An amazing life. One of the great people of modern Thailand.

[tonypace02]

We have to look at a little reality here. There is no way those two young men can be released. It was not just the local people nor the entire nation of Thailand but the whole world that was assured by the chief of state that those confessions were given voluntarily. Since the representartives from Scotland Yard have voiced no opinion about it, it can be presumed that they were persuaded that there was no violence involved in getting the confessions. If those two men are released, it is tantamount to declaring that they were indeed tortured into confessing and any future incident in which the police manage to extract a confession will be suspect and challengeable. So the trial must go on and the presiding judge must render a decision in which he declares that the alleged confessions were never a part of his deliberation, thereby making them redundant to any discussion. Then the police involved will be moved to another district, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[CapeThai]

Let them go now, it is plain as day that these two Burmese lads are just scapegoats, the sad thing is the real killers are still out there.

Yeah and everyone on Koh Tao knows who the guilty is, but the rich boys are so well protected and will never be prosecuted for their crimes. This will still COST Thailand dearly in the long run. In fact I think Koh Tao is already paying the consequences.

The guilty is still out and about parting it away with absolutely NO guilt of scapegoating innocent people. He should be tied to a old dead tree in the African desert and left for the ants to eat him alive, f***cking coward.

[mark131v]

Balo, you reap what you sow and you have not answered the khunmats question on whether you are proud of the way you have defended the RTP in light of all the recent revelations....

You have been one of the most outspoken RTP/Junta cheerleaders so now unfortunately for you when the cases you have spent so long defending starts to implode people are going to pull you up about it

No point bleating about it as I don't reckon you will get a lot of sympathy....

Edited September 11, 2015 by mark131v

[KunMatt]

If this revelation proves to be the final straw that breaks the camel's back confirming corruption within the police and posts held by public servants in Thailand at least their unfortunate and sad deaths were not in vain.

Yeah? And what do you think the repercussions will be for the PM, the RTP, the public servants? Everyone here can do whatever they want with impunity and nobody ever suffers any consequences for their actions. It's why this country is so rotten to the core.

It's not like the world doesn't already know that this country is corrupt, this corrupt case and investigation doesn't prove anything that nobody already didn't know and seen many times before.

[partington]

SO it's been noted by other posters, and by the tweet from Jonah Fisher, that actually the important DNA comes from the body, which is all well and good, but even if the Hoe is not the focus of this, for gofs sake, it's stated as the main murder weapon, so if the B2 Dna ain't on it, regardless of all the other "evidence: the prosecution has, their case still appears to be all wrong. Ridiculous.

I don't understand why you don't understand.

If the judge accepts that the evidence that the DNA from Hannah's body matches the DNA of the accused, and the defence do not adequately and completely demolish this evidence, the suspects will be found guilty.

This has been stated clearly many times by many commentators. The task of the defence is to challenge THIS evidence. If the court accepts it as true, a gulity verdict is absolutely inevitable.

I don't understand why people find this hard to grasp. If the judge is convinced, then it links the two suspects unarguably to a violent rape and murder. It has always been the part of the case that was essential for the defence to disprove.

The fact that the defence refused an offered retest of the DNA found on Hannah is still extremely puzzling, and to me that represents a crucial point in how their case has been handled. If this evidence has been somehow faked, a forensic examination of the laboratory evidence on which it is based would reveal it. I hope this will be part of the upcoming defence or they will not win.

And, if this evidence cannot be disputed, it is compelling evidence for guilt.

[agogohome]

The sperm samples would conclusivly prove their innocence... or guilt. The ploice now have to provide samples of that for independant testing, if the case against the pair is to continue.

[Rykbanlor]

If this revelation proves to be the final straw that breaks the camel's back confirming corruption within the police and posts held by public servants in Thailand at least their unfortunate and sad deaths were not in vain.

Yeah? And what do you think the repercussions will be for the PM, the RTP, the public servants? Everyone here can do whatever they want with impunity and nobody ever suffers any consequences for their actions. It's why this country is so rotten to the core.

It's not like the world doesn't already know that this country is corrupt, this corrupt case and investigation doesn't prove anything that nobody already didn't know and seen many times before.

Except a select few members on here, whose heads seem to be stuck beneath the surface of their sandpits.

[Rykbanlor]

SO it's been noted by other posters, and by the tweet from Jonah Fisher, that actually the important DNA comes from the body, which is all well and good, but even if the Hoe is not the focus of this, for gofs sake, it's stated as the main murder weapon, so if the B2 Dna ain't on it, regardless of all the other "evidence: the prosecution has, their case still appears to be all wrong. Ridiculous.

I don't understand why you don't understand.

If the judge accepts that the evidence that the DNA from Hannah's body matches the DNA of the accused, and the defence do not adequately and completely demolish this evidence, the suspects will be found guilty.

This has been stated clearly many times by many commentators. The task of the defence is to challenge THIS evidence. If the court accepts it as true, a gulity verdict is absolutely inevitable.

I don't understand why people find this hard to grasp. If the judge is convinced, then it links the two suspects unarguably to a violent rape and murder. It has always been the part of the case that was essential for the defence to disprove.

The fact that the defence refused an offered retest of the DNA found on Hannah is still extremely puzzling, and to me that represents a crucial point in how their case has been handled. If this evidence has been somehow faked, a forensic examination of the laboratory evidence on which it is based would reveal it. I hope this will be part of the upcoming defence or they will not win.

And, if this evidence cannot be disputed, it is compelling evidence for guilt.

Nobody is having trouble understanding this.

edit: Maybe in the next days we will be presented with further evidence from the defence. If we step back from the prosecution case for a moment, I will repeat what I said: How come the murder weapon doesn't have their DNA on it?

I am not disputing what you have said regarding the prosecution case, it doesn't make this doubt go away, and yessss, I know that the actaual focus is on the DNA from the body...yayaya.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Rykbanlor

[balo]

mark13v : You reap what you sow and you have not answered the question....

You have been one of the most outspoken RTP/Junta cheerleaders so now unfortunately for you when the cases you have spent so long defending starts to implode people are going to pull you up about it

No point bleating about it as I don't reckon you will get a lot of sympathy

-------------

Which questions do you want me to answer?

I stated my opinion from day 1 in this case. It is my opinion on Thaivisa. Go ahead and read my posts from the beginning if you find it interesting. It should not be necessary to defend myself really, but if I have to I'll do it.

Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys ? The RTP can be both .

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[Darkknight666]

I believe the injuries to Hannah's head were the second to last part of the crime to be carried out, meaning they used the hoe to inflict degrading injuries and afterwards staged the scene. The DNA on that hoe is relevant, let's see if the general will step up or the judges will serve with honor..

[Dumbastheycome]

Is it just me, or is this somewhat confusing?

The DNA on the hoe would most likely be the victims,no?

The article seems to insinuate there is unknown DNA on it,

yet it doesnt go as far as to say the DNA doesnt belong to the victims either.

It also doesnt state that the DNA was sourced from blood or otherwise

Logic would have it, if the DNA wasnt blood based, it could be DNA from the gardener or anyone that used the hoe for gardening or whatever innocent purpose.

But surely they would already have taken the DNA of the gardener to exclude from the evidence pool?

Further to....why expect to find DNA from the attacker/s on a weapon anyway? Unless at least one of the victims had caused a bleeding injury while attempting to defend what realistically that could be isolated would be found?

DNA found on one victim in particular seems to me to be the only comparable evidence.

So yes, very suss that it has taken until this time to confirm that the DNA evidence presented does not match either of the accused!

[eddie61]

I hope the two patsies, with the help of foreign lawyers, sue the RTP to the ends of the earth, once they are released. The whole case is a disgrace on Thailand's Criminal? Justice? System?