Koh Tao murders: 2 DNA profiles from alleged murder weapon do not match defendants' DNA

[smedly]

Is it just me, or is this somewhat confusing?

The DNA on the hoe would most likely be the victims,no?

The article seems to insinuate there is unknown DNA on it,

yet it doesnt go as far as to say the DNA doesnt belong to the victims either.

It also doesnt state that the DNA was sourced from blood or otherwise

Logic would have it, if the DNA wasnt blood based, it could be DNA from the gardener or anyone that used the hoe for gardening or whatever innocent purpose.

But surely they would already have taken the DNA of the gardener to exclude from the evidence pool?

when dna tests are taken from something such as the hoe, samples from everyone that are known to have been in contact with the item are also taken including the person that examined it and took samples, so you could be looking at several dna samples on the hoe all of which do not match the accused.

[sweatalot]

I think Thailand would be better off just canceling this case now and let the defendants go. It just keeps getting worse and worse....

... not without finding the real murderers

[catsanddogs]

Dr Pornthip, Thailand’s most famous forensic scientist, told the court that DNA would have been left on the hoe by anyone who handled it for more than 15 seconds.

She detailed other lapses in the police investigation. The pools of blood in the sand at the murder scene shown in police photographs were not tested for DNA and one of the bodies was before rigor mortis set in, potentially destroying crucial evidence, she said.

She also said that as the bodies were not forensically examined for several hours, it was impossible to assess the prosecution theory that the two murdered Britons had been having sex on the beach.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11857706/British-backpacker-murder-trial-DNA-on-murder-weapon-does-not-match-accused.html

[smedly]

We were expecting some breaking news from Dr Pornthip but this is more explosive than I thought, and we have still got to hear the other evidence from the UK! There's enough now to call a complete halt to these unjust and farcical proceedings

I am actually disappointed with this, why was the dna from the victims body not retested or if it was why has it not been disclosed

[Dogmatix]

I did tell you they would get it....

Andy Hall

9 mins · Twitter ·

Koh Tao defense team just introduced complete UK postmortem pictures/report of Hannah Witheridge to Koh Samui court as best practice model

Did the coroner's report provide an analysis of rapists's DNA or did the Thai police forensics ensure that was all washed away first?

[craigt3365]

I think Thailand would be better off just canceling this case now and let the defendants go. It just keeps getting worse and worse....

... not without finding the real murderers

But seems like they've got the wrong ones. Best to start over and look for the real culprits. If they are capable of that now...my heart goes out to the family of the deceased. Can't imagine what they are going through...

[MaxLee]

Now will the police force shut down the entire network of Thailand???. LOL....????

[Dogmatix]

We were expecting some breaking news from Dr Pornthip but this is more explosive than I thought, and we have still got to hear the other evidence from the UK! There's enough now to call a complete halt to these unjust and farcical proceedings

I am actually disappointed with this, why was the dna from the victims body not retested or if it was why has it not been disclosed

It was either not available or doctored sample made up with the defendants' saliva could have bee provided, as there was no credible chain of custody.

[waldroj]

It’s still up to the judge to hand down a verdict in this case. As noted by zaphod reborn at 13:45, “The judge must hear all the testimony and evidence before rendering a verdict”.

Now, the SkyNews article in the link (11 September 2015) reports that, "A forensics expert says DNA found on the garden hoe allegedly used to kill two British backpackers in Thailand does not match the suspects."

It goes on to say later that "The DNA analysis was ordered by the defence after police failed to do their own tests. Police had said they examined the hoe with a microscope and were confident there were no samples on it."

From my reading, there are two questions that may have a crucial bearing on the outcome of the case, and appear to have not yet been categorically answered:

1. Is the garden hoe the murder weapon?

2. As the DNA is not that of the accused, whose is it?

Surely, if the garden hoe can be proved to be the murder weapon, then an immediate arrest warrant needs to be issued for a person or persons unknown, to help the police restore some vestige of credibility in their handling of this case since the get go.

That said, we need to be a bit circumspect with our cries for the immediate release of B1 and B2 (see photo attached), as the DNA analysis referred to was requested by the defence, and thus may be subject to successful challenge by the prosecution. There may also be sufficient other evidence or testimony to still convict the accused!

We all hope justice is done in this case, and I would think that we all want the true guilty parties to be punished.

[stephenterry]

It is clear what happened today that the RTP do not have a substantiated DNA trail. If they had evidence that incriminated the B2 they would have provided that evidence to the defence without the subterfuge and delays. It beats me how they thought they could get a conviction based on what they say - but there again, I'm not surprised as it's the norm here.

Now, I'm waiting for the defence to destroy the prosecution's case once and for all.

[StealthEnergiser]

DNA on Koh Tao murder weapon not suspectʼs

SURAT THANI: DNA found on the murder weapon used in the Koh Tao murder case does not match that of the two Myanmar suspects according to Thai forensic expert Doctor Pornthip Rojanasunand.

-

Now that we have the murder weapon with crucial evidence of different sets of DNA, further investigation is needed to find the match. - See more at:

http://www.thephuketnews.com/dna-on-koh-tao-murder-weapon-not-suspect%CA%BCs-54064.php?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter#sthash.jfxkTQkV.dpuf

[Chalard]

Is it just me, or is this somewhat confusing?

The DNA on the hoe would most likely be the victims,no?

The article seems to insinuate there is unknown DNA on it,

yet it doesnt go as far as to say the DNA doesnt belong to the victims either.

It also doesnt state that the DNA was sourced from blood or otherwise

Logic would have it, if the DNA wasnt blood based, it could be DNA from the gardener or anyone that used the hoe for gardening or whatever innocent purpose.

But surely they would already have taken the DNA of the gardener to exclude from the evidence pool?

if you READ one report it said DNA of two males found on the hoe, neither of which were the defendants. One could be the gardener. I doubt anyone took his DNA.

I would suggest that if either of the defendants DNA had handled the murder weapon, their DNA could also have been on it.

Stephen the exertion needed to swing that how around would in my opinion mean the full profile was of the killer was transferred. The partial could well be from an individual not connected. But nobody can convince me you can haul that hoe around beating 2 people to death over a sustained amount of time and NOT transfer DNA to it. It beggars belief some people can even consider that a possibility.

Unless they were wearing gloves..???

[Madaussie]

Pornthips visit didn't go quite as I had expected. I was waiting for the DNA profile results that they took in the court. Also the uk post-mortem results for David as well as Hannah to show inconsistences in the RTP claims.

Namely how the injury's were caused. With what. A shot? A bottle etc. Was there DNA recovered on the forensic post-mortem. These sort of things.

Pornthip also said when she compared the DNA against the profiles the police submitted. Now that's very telling as she didn't mention the profiles taken in court. So will it be revealed later that they don't match? Possibly.. It may be that the b2 profiles are totally different from the Hoe and the RTP results.

So a bit inconclusive for me.. Need more info to reinforce what I think.

Crikey another wait.....For those that call a mistrial you wont get it IMHO. this will be a hard fought case right to the very end. The weight to convict is always in the Polee favour.

The Sperm DNA is the biggest hurdle and now they don't have it to test then I fear unless the profiles are clearly different it could be game over. Hoe or whatever other irregularities may get thrown up, the court will fall to the RTP version.

That's me looking through a clear set of glasses and not my rose tinted ones, like some of us wear some days.

[Dogmatix]

Is it possible that the murders/rapists used gloves to handle the hoe but didn't use condoms to prevent their semen from being traced in the victim? Yes, but very unlikely. Also no gloves have been presented as evidence.

[Madaussie]

Is it just me, or is this somewhat confusing?

The DNA on the hoe would most likely be the victims,no?

The article seems to insinuate there is unknown DNA on it,

yet it doesnt go as far as to say the DNA doesnt belong to the victims either.

It also doesnt state that the DNA was sourced from blood or otherwise

Logic would have it, if the DNA wasnt blood based, it could be DNA from the gardener or anyone that used the hoe for gardening or whatever innocent purpose.

But surely they would already have taken the DNA of the gardener to exclude from the evidence pool?

if you READ one report it said DNA of two males found on the hoe, neither of which were the defendants. One could be the gardener. I doubt anyone took his DNA.

I would suggest that if either of the defendants DNA had handled the murder weapon, their DNA could also have been on it.

Stephen the exertion needed to swing that how around would in my opinion mean the full profile was of the killer was transferred. The partial could well be from an individual not connected. But nobody can convince me you can haul that hoe around beating 2 people to death over a sustained amount of time and NOT transfer DNA to it. It beggars belief some people can even consider that a possibility.

Unless they were wearing gloves..???

I am open minded however I didn't see them buy any in the 7-11 and the chances of them have a pair handy on a night out is probably slight. They didn't mention them in the reconstruction either.

[AleG]

We were expecting some breaking news from Dr Pornthip but this is more explosive than I thought, and we have still got to hear the other evidence from the UK! There's enough now to call a complete halt to these unjust and farcical proceedings

I am actually disappointed with this, why was the dna from the victims body not retested or if it was why has it not been disclosed

It was not retested because the defense refused the offer to do so.

[Darkknight666]

I did tell you they would get it....

Andy Hall

9 mins · Twitter ·

Koh Tao defense team just introduced complete UK postmortem pictures/report of Hannah Witheridge to Koh Samui court as best practice model

Did the coroner's report provide an analysis of rapists's DNA or did the Thai police forensics ensure that was all washed away first?

Good question. I really hope some DNA could have been recovered in the UK and I hope they can submit it as well... Show RTP "Best Model" rape kit results.

[Jonmarleesco]

I really didn't think the RTP and the prosecutor's office were so incompetent as to risk going to trial with so much non-evidence.

[csabo]

The RTP defenders will come along soon pleading a conspiracy !

Where are they, come out come out wherever you are..........

I think I just heard some buttholes snap shut on Koh Tao, and I'm in Phuket.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Really no big surprises here. The RTP already gave testimony in court that they moved the body (David) for fear it might be washed away but the tide. Whether that was the right thing to do or not I don't know. But it does sound like a plausible reason to do so. It was never claimed the Hannah's Body was moved.

As to the garden hoe it is also known that the hoe was moved after the murders. The partially blind gardener (Beach Cleaner) already admitted he did in court. It then would not be considered unusual that his finger prints may have been on the hoe, although that was never proved by either side as far as I know. Since the hoe was moved I suppose anyone could have touched it.

This would have had much more significance if the hoe was found at the murder scene untouched, but it wasn't. Anyone could have touched it after that and the gardener already admitted he did. It is more likely that the hoe was thrown in the ocean and was washed. Based on that only a trace amount of Hannah' s Blood was found on the hoe. When you consider that if this was the murder weapon, and the blood splatter on the nearby rocks, there should have been more blood on it, that is unless it was washed off first.

The most damning evidence has been the DNA linking the accused to Hannah. To my knowledge this hasn't been disproved yet. If the Defense Team can do that, than fine. If they cannot then, but show reasonable doubt, then I am not sure.

This damning DNA evidence of yours that links the accused to the victim, is this the same lot that has only been confirmed verbally by a cop, and not actually available to examine?

Also as far as I heard, the washing of the hoe is a moot point, as it has been claimed it was both washed and not washed. It still had blood on it though, so it can't have been washed very well.

First of all this damning DNA Evidence is not mine. It belongs to the Prosecutor. I hold no DNA Evidence on anyone whatsoever.

If you chose to believe that this DNA Evidence is only a verbal statement in court, then go ahead, as this would be wrong. But you are entitled to believe whatever you want to.

The hoe in itself is a moot point even with someones else's DNA on it. If you could prove through Ballistics that the murder weapon was a gun, but yet several people afterwards handled this gun and their finger prints were on it even if the accused wasn't, does it prove one of them others killed this person? Or does it open the possibility that someone wiped his finger prints off, who actually did the crime?

If you read this full article you would have seen that the Prosecution does not agree with you.That they do in fact believe they have evidence that links the accused to Hannah and it was presented. If you have a beef about that then I suggest you contact them for a correction.

Yes, I am quite sure the prosecution does not agree with me, nor I them and I do not believe that without the proper chain of custody (as the defence complained was not provided ) that the DNA samples form the victim can be trusted.

Also, try to catch up to speed with figures of speech.

Fair enough!

So now the Defense has an opportunity to prove that this Chain of Custody was not followed, instead of just complain about it to the media.

[fish fingers]

https://twitter.com/pakhead/status/642202002634743808

Now, run, run, run for your life, Dr. Porthip,... the mafia is gonna witch hunt you now....

She's too famous

[boomerangutang]

Let them go now, it is plain as day that these two Burmese lads are just scapegoats, the sad thing is the real killers are still out there.

I want to see the Burmese fellows released as soon as anyone else does, however, I don't want a mis-trial declared before defense has had their allotted time to present their case. As soon as prosecution and RTP and Headman know they've lost it, they'll want the trial closed up tight, because they know that evidence come forth, at any moment, which could implicate the people they're trying so desperately to shield.

I do think there are about 6 posters that need to eat some humble pie and admit that the witch hunt is over.

They never will. Nothing short of a tearful admission of guilt by the real culprits in front of news media will sway them toward reality - and even then they would hedge and make excuses.

[smedly]

No wonder the police had to come up with the "used up" lie.

If the hoe doesn't match the B2, imagine what the rape kit samples might show or who they might point to and a ton of other bloodied evidence that has been destroyed.

well that is exactly right and I have been saying it for weeks, the most plentiful source for dna (samples from inside the victim) were used up ??????? I simply do not buy into that, which is the primary reason I remain skeptical about this whole investigation, you simply cannot use up or lose plentiful vital dna eveidence in a murder case, it is just too convenient and by any basic international standard I am aware of would be inadmissable in court, the tests are not worth the paper they are written on without the original physical evidence

and as I have said before it would be like prosecution introducing a balistic report on a murder weapon but being unable to produce the gun or associated bullet - it would be laughed out of court, this dna evidence is no different

[phuketandsee]

"I want to see the Burmese fellows released as soon as anyone else does, however, I don't want a mis-trial declared before defense has had their allotted time to present their case. As soon as prosecution and RTP and Headman know they've lost it, they'll want the trial closed up tight, because they know that evidence come forth, at any moment, which could implicate the people they're trying so desperately to shield".

Absolutely right Boomer

[hawksway]

With so much hanging on scientific evidence, which now seems to have been discredited, this case would seem to be at a state of abandonment.

Don't take bets on it though. That Thailand has a largely dysfunctional legal system and a Police Force which treats forensic science as seriously as a Hollywood movie, then anything is possible.

[scorecard]

They do not need evidence to convict them. The prisons are full of people who were convicted with no evidence.Its up to the defendants to prove they are innocent. Thats how this system works

You have a point,but in this case I don't think it will work,because the whole world is watching this very closely and I don't think the RTP is so dumb as to try any thing else in order to save face.

Plus their reputation is in tatters in regard to the recent Bkk bomb investigation.

[freedom4life]

Let them go now, it is plain as day that these two Burmese lads are just scapegoats, the sad thing is the real killers are still out there.

They've been out there since the beginning, but corruption would not allow his (their) capture. In addition, most of us know who he (they) is (are)

[scorecard]

I really didn't think the RTP and the prosecutor's office were so incompetent as to risk going to trial with so much non-evidence.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Is it just me, or is this somewhat confusing?

The DNA on the hoe would most likely be the victims,no?

The article seems to insinuate there is unknown DNA on it,

yet it doesnt go as far as to say the DNA doesnt belong to the victims either.

It also doesnt state that the DNA was sourced from blood or otherwise

Logic would have it, if the DNA wasnt blood based, it could be DNA from the gardener or anyone that used the hoe for gardening or whatever innocent purpose.

But surely they would already have taken the DNA of the gardener to exclude from the evidence pool?

if you READ one report it said DNA of two males found on the hoe, neither of which were the defendants. One could be the gardener. I doubt anyone took his DNA.

I would suggest that if either of the defendants DNA had handled the murder weapon, their DNA could also have been on it.

Stephen the exertion needed to swing that how around would in my opinion mean the full profile was of the killer was transferred. The partial could well be from an individual not connected. But nobody can convince me you can haul that hoe around beating 2 people to death over a sustained amount of time and NOT transfer DNA to it. It beggars belief some people can even consider that a possibility.

I am sure at the time of the murders you would be 100% correct. But who is to say standing by an ocean that this could not be washed off afterwards? The hoe was only linked to these murders as traces of Hannah's Blood was found on it. It doesn't mean there could not be more than one, as many people suggested here already.

The Police thought at first that maybe a wood club was also involved, but they never found it with DNA linking to anything.A rock could have easily been found and used there as well. But since they could not find a DNA again it is not proved. A rock thrown in the ocean afterwards, is just a clean rock. A Wood Stick thrown n the ocean afterwards, become drift wood. If they can't tie them to a murder it means nothing. I personally believe something else was used.

[Toscano]

As I recall , the sperm in the vagina of Miss Witheridge did match the defendants .