Sense of urgency for drastic THAI reform still lacking among airline's staff, says president

[user82374298374]

Have to disagree with you about business class: Thai is inferior to most other asian carriers, specifically Cathay, Singapore and Malaysia. It held onto ancient, unrefurbished planes long after all the others had updated. Dreadful regional seats on flight to Australia...ie, 8 or 9 hours. Woeful.

It is also less likely to see 'attitude' on those other carriers but really quite common on Thai, particularly younger female staff. One expects a bit of DYKWIA from the passengers from time to time...but to see it from staff? .The older ones ( probably the ones they will get rid of) are much better.

Thai holds its own in economy but falls short in business, even though it charges a premium over those other carriers. EG, Bangkok-Taipei return on Cathay, 21,000BHT, Thai direct 33,000

I just flew BKK - MEL - BKK three weeks ago, and the business-class seats and service were top-notch, per-usual.

I have never received 'attitude' from any Thai Airways flight staff on any TG route in any TG seating class. One rather suspects that any 'attitude' is on your side.

I fly Star Alliance, so Cathay Pacific are out for me (I've flown them in the past, when I had no choice, and they were decent). Singapore Airlines are also decent, but I detect zero quality difference between their business class and Thai Airways business class (except for that wonderful SIN - LAX all-business-class non-stop flight, which has since been cancelled).

As for pricing, I could care less, since it's paid for as a business expense for me, or out of accumulated air-miles.

[user82374298374]

Shanghai - BKK flight last week, entertainment system terrible. Two English movies: Ben Hur and Mary Poppins.

What kind of Luddite uses the 'entertainment systems'? Load up some movies or TV episodes or books on your phone or tablet, and enjoy content you've chosen for yourself.

Anyone who actually evaluates any airline on the basis of the 'entertainment systems' isn't credible. Anyone who uses those 'entertainment systems' is of sub-par intelligence.

[2fishin2]

Shanghai - BKK flight last week, entertainment system terrible. Two English movies: Ben Hur and Mary Poppins.

What kind of Luddite uses the 'entertainment systems'? Load up some movies or TV episodes or books on your phone or tablet, and enjoy content you've chosen for yourself.

Anyone who actually evaluates any airline on the basis of the 'entertainment systems' isn't credible. Anyone who uses those 'entertainment systems' is of sub-par intelligence.

I use them and probably at least 60% or more of the passengers on every flight I have flown on, does. Could we all be of "sub-par intelligence? I think not.

I had to look up the word "Luddite" as its not a word Im familiar with. You using that word really makes me understand your nonsensical post and judgmental attitude. Thank you

Edited September 19, 2015 by 2fishin2

[Prbkk]

Have to disagree with you about business class: Thai is inferior to most other asian carriers, specifically Cathay, Singapore and Malaysia. It held onto ancient, unrefurbished planes long after all the others had updated. Dreadful regional seats on flight to Australia...ie, 8 or 9 hours. Woeful.

It is also less likely to see 'attitude' on those other carriers but really quite common on Thai, particularly younger female staff. One expects a bit of DYKWIA from the passengers from time to time...but to see it from staff? .The older ones ( probably the ones they will get rid of) are much better.

Thai holds its own in economy but falls short in business, even though it charges a premium over those other carriers. EG, Bangkok-Taipei return on Cathay, 21,000BHT, Thai direct 33,000

I just flew BKK - MEL - BKK three weeks ago, and the business-class seats and service were top-notch, per-usual.

I have never received 'attitude' from any Thai Airways flight staff on any TG route in any TG seating class. One rather suspects that any 'attitude' is on your side.

I fly Star Alliance, so Cathay Pacific are out for me (I've flown them in the past, when I had no choice, and they were decent). Singapore Airlines are also decent, but I detect zero quality difference between their business class and Thai Airways business class (except for that wonderful SIN - LAX all-business-class non-stop flight, which has since been cancelled).

As for pricing, I could care less, since it's paid for as a business expense for me, or out of accumulated air-miles.

Clearly your experience on that sector is limited otherwise you would know that the 777ER has only been in service in very recent times and even now for only 1 of the 2 daily flights. the 10 YEARS before the old regional seats ( ie Cathay circa 1990) were in use.

The fact that you observe no 'attitude' means that others who have observed it must be mistaken or at fault themselves? Speaks volumes.

You don't care about the fares because someone else pays? Says it all.

[ourmanflint]

Shanghai - BKK flight last week, entertainment system terrible. Two English movies: Ben Hur and Mary Poppins.

What kind of Luddite uses the 'entertainment systems'? Load up some movies or TV episodes or books on your phone or tablet, and enjoy content you've chosen for yourself.

Anyone who actually evaluates any airline on the basis of the 'entertainment systems' isn't credible. Anyone who uses those 'entertainment systems' is of sub-par intelligence.

What a ridiculous post. Of course people rate airlines in part for the in flight entertainments, it's a very important part of flying long haul.

[digibum]

I recently had the displeasure of having to visit the THAI Airways office in Chiang Mai. I fully understand why the airline is in trouble. Staffed by lazy, incompetent, unhelpful staff who where all busy playing on their phones.

Over 15 manned desks and no customers.

Their answer to every one of my questions was..... Call the Call Center.

A complete joke and disgrace.

Maybe I just notice it more in Thailand but back in the US, most service employees aren't allowed to use their mobile phones while on the clock. Even in Thai restaurants, you would never see the staff ignoring you because they were busy with their phones (they might ignore you for other reasons like watching TV) unless it's a small family run joint.

Take away their mobile phones during working hours!

I guess I'm showing my age by saying that I remember back before mobile phones and taking a personal call at work was seriously frowned upon. Even in white collar jobs where you generally had more latitude you would get some strange looks from coworkers. Nowadays, people whip out their mobile phones and text during meetings, while talking to their boss, etc, etc.

Point being that I would imagine that it's very hard for someone like this CEO to change the culture of THAI and instill a sense of urgency when you've got this entire workforce of people who think posting a status update to Facebook is more important than getting their job done.

[MobileContent]

While I'm no Thai apologist, I take issue with the endless derogatory comments about Thai Airways on this forum.

I travel more than most who post here - ~200,000 air-miles a year, to/from various countries in Asia, various countries in Europe, Australia, North America, and various countries in South America. I fly on Thai Airways whenever possible. Short hops to Singapore or Malaysia are Economy (sometimes upgraded by Thai; I tend to hoard my miles for vacations), everything longer than 2.5 hours is business-class.

They do a pretty good job, for me. The only problem I've ever experienced with them was when they had an abrupt gate-change at Suvarnabhumi, made everyone walk down the external jetway stairs to a waiting bus, then walk up the external jetway stairs at the new gate, in the driving rain, with the Thai ground staff standing nice and dry under their umbrellas while older people struggled up the stairs and all were soaked in the rain. I lit into them pretty well, and they immediately started escorting older passengers up the stairs, helping them with their bags, and shielding them with their umbrellas.

So, apart from that one idiotic logistical issue, I've never had an issue with them in 9 years of flying Thai Airways. And since I fly more than most people who post on this forum, on many different routes, the only conclusion I can draw is that there are a lot of trolls who simply post negative things about Thai Airways customer service because it makes them feel important.

None of this has to do with the serious bloat and economic issues facing Thai Airways; I was angry when they ended the wonderful non-stop BKK - LAX run, and am furthered angered they're ending the one routed through Incheon. The reason I'm angry is that these were great flights, with professional staff, and I never once had any kind of problem on those flights.

My guess you compare them to the airlines in the US and you are right, THAI is still better then all those US airlines.

I have not that much complains about THAI but a ticket Bangkok - Munich - Bangkok at Baht 69,000 is just crazy as I can get it half the price from Emirates or Qatar.

[Briggsy]

Make Thai Airways 100% publiclly-owned and see how fast its employees either "shape up or ship out." Can you imagine someone like Donald Trump or billionaire Berkshire Hathaway's Charlie Munger as the majority shareholder?

This would be true if there was a genuine desire amongst the government, any government, to turn THAI into a profitable business. There is not. THAI has been a gravy train for the connected for decades, whether it is jobs with salaries and excellent packages for the wastrel sons of THAI connected families, fat board positions for politicians, free business class flights for MP's, pick of the new air hostess hopefuls as mia nois for the RTAF officers, etc.

The latest guff from the CEO is simply spouted MBA jargon. His job is really to give the impression of reform whilst ensuring the vested interests at THAI retain their income streams.

The taxpayer will continue to subsidise THAI forever.

[digibum]

This airline needs a Tony Fernandes with unlimited powers to effect a real turnaround. The bloated payroll needs to be slashed, keeping only the best people.

You can't envy this CEO. They can't hire outsiders to run the national airline so he's gotta limited pool of people to select from when it comes to senior management and even middle management.

On top of that, you gotta imagine senior and middle management is packed to the brim with cousins, aunts, uncles, etc of generals and other connected members of Thai society such that firing the dead weight is politically impossible. The second he starts cleaning house, powerful people start whispering in the background about how he needs replaced and every failure or delay is exhibited as an example of the CEO's incompetence. Of course, since that is the objective, you get the entire senior management team actively working against the CEO trying to insure embarrassing failures.

Typically, the way this kind of thing plays out is:

Fire CEO

Bring in new CEO and charge him with fixing everything in some insanely short period of time. The more unrealistic the expectations the better.

Change ruffle feathers so groups within the company actively resist change which thwarts progress

Little progress is made in the unrealistic timelines advertised so new CEO is sacked

And the cycle continues until either the company goes bankrupt or the board finally realizes that the only way to fix the situation is to give the CEO unlimited authority to make changes and quits undermining him/her by making it difficult to get rid of the opposition to change.

[scorecard]

I am not knocking thai airlines having flown with them on numerous occasions , they have been told to bring everything up to international level all middle east air crews were trained by british airways I suggest thai airways does the same .

At one stage new cabin staff went through the cabin training program at Singapore Airlines.

It didn't last long.

[scorecard]

This airline needs a Tony Fernandes with unlimited powers to effect a real turnaround. The bloated payroll needs to be slashed, keeping only the best people.

You can't envy this CEO. They can't hire outsiders to run the national airline so he's gotta limited pool of people to select from when it comes to senior management and even middle management.

On top of that, you gotta imagine senior and middle management is packed to the brim with cousins, aunts, uncles, etc of generals and other connected members of Thai society such that firing the dead weight is politically impossible. The second he starts cleaning house, powerful people start whispering in the background about how he needs replaced and every failure or delay is exhibited as an example of the CEO's incompetence. Of course, since that is the objective, you get the entire senior management team actively working against the CEO trying to insure embarrassing failures.

Typically, the way this kind of thing plays out is:

Fire CEO

Bring in new CEO and charge him with fixing everything in some insanely short period of time. The more unrealistic the expectations the better.

Change ruffle feathers so groups within the company actively resist change which thwarts progress

Little progress is made in the unrealistic timelines advertised so new CEO is sacked

And the cycle continues until either the company goes bankrupt or the board finally realizes that the only way to fix the situation is to give the CEO unlimited authority to make changes and quits undermining him/her by making it difficult to get rid of the opposition to change.

Add two more points:

- Thai inter is now an old company which has had no choice but to operate under the rules of state enterprises etc., therefore the majority of managers, all levels, are in these positions because promotion is by years of service rather than displayed capability and past high performance, aligned knowledge and experience, etc. Meaning that many have been promoted way past their capability and interest, plus they feel entitled.

- Many years ago I attended a presentation at Thai and I spoke to a senior HR manager, I asked him 'how do you measure and rank personal performance?' His reply 'Oh we don't do that / we don't need to measure staff performance because all our staff are well educated, most have masters degree'.

[Assurancetourix]

starting with the staff.

That will be very, very & very difficult;

many people " working " , is it the good word ? in this company are sons and daughters of the HiSo ...

[waldroj]

This airline needs a Tony Fernandes with unlimited powers to effect a real turnaround. The bloated payroll needs to be slashed, keeping only the best people.

You can't envy this CEO. They can't hire outsiders to run the national airline so he's gotta limited pool of people to select from when it comes to senior management and even middle management.

On top of that, you gotta imagine senior and middle management is packed to the brim with cousins, aunts, uncles, etc of generals and other connected members of Thai society such that firing the dead weight is politically impossible. The second he starts cleaning house, powerful people start whispering in the background about how he needs replaced and every failure or delay is exhibited as an example of the CEO's incompetence. Of course, since that is the objective, you get the entire senior management team actively working against the CEO trying to insure embarrassing failures.

Typically, the way this kind of thing plays out is:

Fire CEO

Bring in new CEO and charge him with fixing everything in some insanely short period of time. The more unrealistic the expectations the better.

Change ruffle feathers so groups within the company actively resist change which thwarts progress

Little progress is made in the unrealistic timelines advertised so new CEO is sacked

And the cycle continues until either the company goes bankrupt or the board finally realizes that the only way to fix the situation is to give the CEO unlimited authority to make changes and quits undermining him/her by making it difficult to get rid of the opposition to change.

Add two more points:

- Thai inter is now an old company which has had no choice but to operate under the rules of state enterprises etc., therefore the majority of managers, all levels, are in these positions because promotion is by years of service rather than displayed capability and past high performance, aligned knowledge and experience, etc. Meaning that many have been promoted way past their capability and interest, plus they feel entitled.

- Many years ago I attended a presentation at Thai and I spoke to a senior HR manager, I asked him 'how do you measure and rank personal performance?' His reply 'Oh we don't do that / we don't need to measure staff performance because all our staff are well educated, most have masters degree'.

Scorecard has hit the nail right on the head with his enlightening observation.

Without drifting too far off topic, I would suggest that what should have been said is that, "…most have master’s degrees from Thai universities"!

The expectation would then be, that this qualification would be enough to secure a lucrative position in the company for life, without any measure of performance.

This has been an excellent forum, with many astute contributions about the blatantly obvious problems within the existing culture of this State-run enterprise.

THAI could do well to take some of these suggestions on board.

That said, it could be argued that (by Western standards), this same culture of patronage, personal connections, and nepotism pervades almost all facets of Thailand's civil service (including the RTP).

I’ve already made my suggestions on what I believe is needed in an earlier post (#21), but the reality is that BIG changes need to be made, and they need to be made sooner than later!

Ironically, THAI’s origins in 1960 stem from a joint venture between the now-defunct domestic carrier Thai Airways Company and Scandinavian Airlines (SAS). The irony comes from the fact that SAS (like THAI today), faced a similar financial crisis back in 1981, before they were rescued by the charismatic Jan Carlzon (the first person to introduce Business Class cabins). In his first year as CEO of SAS, Carlzon returned the company to profitability! This turn-around has been used as a classic case-study in management studies.

Incidentally, I have always flown THAI when it is an option, as the convenience of direct services to BKK has suited me. From DC8’s, through DC10’s and MD11’s, 747's and 777’s, A340's and A380’s, I’ve been there and done that over 40 years, AND I have to say the service now ain’t what it used to be.

[hawksway]

Having put up assets for sale, discontinued unprofitable routes there's probably not much Thai can do. The Airline's staff numbers are not really that much over the top compared to other carriers. Most other airlines are not making very big profits on routes to Europe and regional services where Thai has to compete with aggressive LCCs. The problem is not a shortage of economy passengers but rather those who travel in the high yield premium cabins. The reality is that fares are too cheap but in in line with Thailand's tourist industry which continues to attract low revenue customers like the ones propping up the bars.

In the end Thai International will inevitably die a death of a thousand cuts. One morning and almost without warning we shall awake to the headlines.

[tomacht8]

The latest half-year results have shown some improvement, but the airline is still in the red with 2015 losses projected to be Bt297 million,

"For the first half of this year, we booked a loss of Bt12 billion from selling unused aircraft and implemented early-retirement programmes costing around Bt3.7 billion. However, there was a foreign-exchange profit of Bt5.9 billion and tax credits worth Bt2.06 billion, resulting in about Bt8 billion in losses.

So the losses for 2015 will be only 297 million.
That would be good compared with the loss of Bt10.9 billion 2014

Today they stay at 8 Billion Baht loss as i understood.

So to come from a 8 Billion half year loss to a loss from only 297 million at the end 2015 indicates that Thai now generat in operating business
positive numbers for the next 3.5 months?

I doubt it, or there is something got lost in translation.

[digibum]

Having put up assets for sale, discontinued unprofitable routes there's probably not much Thai can do. The Airline's staff numbers are not really that much over the top compared to other carriers. Most other airlines are not making very big profits on routes to Europe and regional services where Thai has to compete with aggressive LCCs. The problem is not a shortage of economy passengers but rather those who travel in the high yield premium cabins. The reality is that fares are too cheap but in in line with Thailand's tourist industry which continues to attract low revenue customers like the ones propping up the bars.

In the end Thai International will inevitably die a death of a thousand cuts. One morning and almost without warning we shall awake to the headlines.

There's plenty they can do. The problem is that they won't likely make the necessary changes. Yes, they will die a death of a thousand cuts but it won't because there wasn't a way out. It was because they refused to change.

[Basil B]

I recently had the displeasure of having to visit the THAI Airways office in Chiang Mai. I fully understand why the airline is in trouble. Staffed by lazy, incompetent, unhelpful staff who where all busy playing on their phones.

Over 15 manned desks and no customers.

Their answer to every one of my questions was..... Call the Call Center.

A complete joke and disgrace.

Call the call centre...

What do the need a office in Chang Mai for that can not be done over the phone???

Contract out all services, when contractors fail to meet their SLA's just replace them.

At least this guy can see what the problems are... lets see if he can turn Thai around.

[Stargeezr]

It is very wasteful for any airline to have too many types of aircraft, as each type, or different company, such as Boeing, Airbus,

A.T.R, etc, need its own kind of engineer to maintain the aircraft. That all costs extra money, in parts, labour, and training.

I am glad to hear that Thai Air is going to streamline that end of their problems. I hope they can recover, and I hope to be able

to fly with them in the future.

[Valentine]

Not one new CEO has ever mentioned or explained how much Thai loses on the free seats they give away to all & sundry & their families.

[MaiChai]

Dump the big jets and buy some Learjets?

Seriously planes have different classes and the airline should be aiming to fill all seats in all classes with different marketing campaigns?