My first 90 report was a bust. Please list my options.

[aronp1]

You don't have a lease? For my first report the lease papers and passport was all that was needed.

[Maestro]

If there are other options, I am eager to hear them.

You are the house master, ie the chief possessor of the rented condo in your capacity as tenant, as defined in section 4 of the Immigration Act, and therefore the legal responsibility to submit the TM.30 is yours. On the form, below your signature, highlight, underline or encircle "POSSESSOR"

Submit also a copy of your lease agreement as evidence of your being the house master, ie the possessor.

If the immigration officer continues to give you grief, call 1178 and ask for advice what you should do when the officer abuses his authority by refusing to accept your form TM.30

See also http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/864030-tourist-visa-proof-of-residency/?p=9986026

[Langsuan Man]

I find it hard to believe that even renting the OP does not have one utility bill in his name

I did my first 90 day report (on an O-A) using my 3BB Internet bill as proof of "address"

But I agree that the guest house or hotel bill is the way to get over this minor blip. Once he does his first one , he will be in the computer system , so in the future he can do it online

The only consistent fact reported in the 90 day report online thread is that you must be in your local Immigration offices computer system before the online system will work for you

[Liquorice]

If there are other options, I am eager to hear them.

You are the house master, ie the chief possessor of the rented condo in your capacity as tenant, as defined in section 4 of the Immigration Act, and therefore the legal responsibility to submit the TM.30 is yours. On the form, below your signature, highlight, underline or encircle "POSSESSOR"

Submit also a copy of your lease agreement as evidence of your being the house master, ie the possessor.

If the immigration officer continues to give you grief, call 1178 and ask for advice what you should do when the officer abuses his authority by refusing to accept your form TM.30

See also http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/864030-tourist-visa-proof-of-residency/?p=9986026

I don't think it's the TM30 that's the problem Maestro.

I don't think Michael has a lease contract and no proof of the address to where he is reporting his residence.

Being the very first 90 day report the IO wants the landlords ID information which is entered onto your file in the system.

They detail their name, ID number and contact number.

I had a similar experience when I did my first extension off the back of a single entry Non Imm O.

Although I had a lease the IO wanted copies of the landlady's ID card and Tabian Baan, signed and contact number.

My landlady lives in a totally different area of Thailand, however I had a much more accommodating IO, who rang my landlady to confirm the address, but accepted the documents of and entered the details of my g/f until I could supply the landlady's documents.

As the tenant I completed the TM30 myself, no problems.

[tomwct]

If you have a 12 months "O" Visa don't bother with the 90 day reports. Get a permanent residence or a landlord that will work with you and pay the 2000 THB fine when your visa comes up for renewal!

[Maestro]

That's tough, then. Of course, any contract can also be just verbal, but without a written contract there is no way to prove its existence to a third party.

I have noticed that in Thailand, just about every time a paper is signed a copy of a personal identification document – ID card for a Thai, passport for a foreigner – is made, signed and attached to the document. We should take note to apply this practice also to lease agreements, and add also a signed copy of the house registration book. After all, without these copies, how can I know that he has the authority to give me possession of it, and how would I know whom to sue if the need should arise. It's just a matter of due diligence, it would seem.

[Dynalmadman]

Just some clarification, we DO have a written lease. In both english and Thai. The IO was completely uninterested in the lease. Without the house paper and the owner ID, he said there was nothing he could do. My wife asked if we could fill out the TM30 on the spot, he reiterated that we would not get the approval without the house book and copy of ID. There was no room for discussion.

Michael

[OJAS]

Just some clarification, we DO have a written lease. In both english and Thai. The IO was completely uninterested in the lease. Without the house paper and the owner ID, he said there was nothing he could do. My wife asked if we could fill out the TM30 on the spot, he reiterated that we would not get the approval without the house book and copy of ID. There was no room for discussion.

Michael

Looks like he is abusing his authority, then, and a call to 1178 needs to be made, as suggested by Maestro.

[Dynalmadman]

Just some clarification, we DO have a written lease. In both english and Thai. The IO was completely uninterested in the lease. Without the house paper and the owner ID, he said there was nothing he could do. My wife asked if we could fill out the TM30 on the spot, he reiterated that we would not get the approval without the house book and copy of ID. There was no room for discussion.

Michael

Looks like he is abusing his authority, then, and a call to 1178 needs to be made, as suggested by Maestro.

I agree that he was less than helpful, but we are still in this short term bind. We will take care of the immediate issues and then worry about the abusing IO.

Michael

[Liquorice]

This may or may not be relevant to this thread.

I posted my experience in an older topic after the online reporting was introduced.

On a visit to my Immigration office I was privy to being shown how the new online system worked.

As part of that process they explained how they had developed a new Immigration system in 2013, and the new online reporting was an extension to that system.

However that meant that only foreigners with details on the newer system would be able to complete 90 day reports online.

I digress, the point is, and using my own details, I saw every relevant section of information held on my computerised record.

There is a section containing the details of the owner of your residence.

Be that wife, girlfriend or landlord, but their name, ID number and contact details are added.

Of course they want the paper copies of this information, to support the made entries on the database.

When I read so many posts on TV of requests by an IO for a foreigner to submit this and that form, that weren't previously requested, I can understand that Immigration are filling in the blank details on the foreigners computerised records, which they either previously failed to include because of lack of enforcement or neglect and laziness. However these requirements are now being enforced at many Immigration offices and they are playing catch up.

Many private Thai house owners have no idea of the requirement to report an alien residing at their property, so the onus rightly or wrongly, falls on the foreigner to supply the TM30 and get copies of the Thai's ID and house book.

Maestro said;

I have noticed that in Thailand, just about every time a paper is signed a copy of a personal identification document – ID card for a Thai, passport for a foreigner – is made, signed and attached to the document. We should take note to apply this practice also to lease agreements, and add also a signed copy of the house registration book.

Excellent idea and advice.

[billphillips]

You could use your wife's address, book and I'd. You can continue living wherever you want to. In future ... Renew the 90 day on-line, especially if her home is in another catchment area.

[Liquorice]

Just some clarification, we DO have a written lease. In both english and Thai. The IO was completely uninterested in the lease. Without the house paper and the owner ID, he said there was nothing he could do. My wife asked if we could fill out the TM30 on the spot, he reiterated that we would not get the approval without the house book and copy of ID. There was no room for discussion.

Michael

Looks like he is abusing his authority, then, and a call to 1178 needs to be made, as suggested by Maestro.

He is not abusing his authority, he is required to enter details on the OP's record of his address and the details of the owner who is leasing the property with supportive documentation. It is the landlord that is abusing the OP by refusing to supply those documents.

[billphillips]

Just some clarification, we DO have a written lease. In both english and Thai. The IO was completely uninterested in the lease. Without the house paper and the owner ID, he said there was nothing he could do. My wife asked if we could fill out the TM30 on the spot, he reiterated that we would not get the approval without the house book and copy of ID. There was no room for discussion.

Michael

Looks like he is abusing his authority, then, and a call to 1178 needs to be made, as suggested by Maestro.

He is not abusing his authority, he is required to enter details on the OP's record of his address and the details of the owner who is leasing the property with supportive documentation. It is the landlord that is abusing the OP by refusing to supply those documents.

Yes, you have a point, it's the landlords responsibility to comply. It's also a criminal offence not to.

[Liquorice]

You could use your wife's address, book and I'd. You can continue living wherever you want to. In future ... Renew the 90 day on-line, especially if her home is in another catchment area.

Good idea........ but the wife's ID wouldn't match the Condo address or the signature on the lease............UNLESS

he said he was living with the wife at the address registered on her house book (no lease), but then he would have to make the report at the Immigration office located to her house book address.

[snoopy21]

As I heard, there is a 15 days grace period after the date of reporting for 90 days report. Even you report after that grace period, I just be fined, but the immigration won't cancel your visa.

BTW, your landlord will be fined for 2,000baht if he or she did not notify your residence as I heard from my agent.

[Maestro]

If I understand the latest information correctly, in 2013 immigration set up a system that is programmed to require unnecessary information in connection with the form TM.30, which is all about the house master, ie possessor, of the residence, not its owner.

If a foreigner throws a bomb and the police cannot catch him at his rented apartment, do the intend to arrest and jail the apartment owner instead?

[oncearugge]

As I heard, there is a 15 days grace period after the date of reporting for 90 days report. Even you report after that grace period, I just be fined, but the immigration won't cancel your visa.

BTW, your landlord will be fined for 2,000baht if he or she did not notify your residence as I heard from my agent.

There is a "window" of time during which a 90 day report can be made which is 15 days prior the the reports due date extending to 7 days after the report is due.

There are no "grace" periods and reporting 15 days after a report was due would result in a 2000 Bht fine.

[Drees]

If you do a border run (out/in) to Laos you also have to pay (1500 Baht) for the Laos visa!?

[oncearugge]

If you do a border run (out/in) to Laos you also have to pay (1500 Baht) for the Laos visa!?

Yes.

[Liquorice]

Just some clarification, we DO have a written lease. In both english and Thai. The IO was completely uninterested in the lease. Without the house paper and the owner ID, he said there was nothing he could do. My wife asked if we could fill out the TM30 on the spot, he reiterated that we would not get the approval without the house book and copy of ID. There was no room for discussion.

Michael

Looks like he is abusing his authority, then, and a call to 1178 needs to be made, as suggested by Maestro.

He is not abusing his authority, he is required to enter details on the OP's record of his address and the details of the owner who is leasing the property with supportive documentation. It is the landlord that is abusing the OP by refusing to supply those documents.

Yes, you have a point, it's the landlords responsibility to comply. It's also a criminal offence not to.

Unfortunately Bill it is not solely the landlords responsibility. The law states a TM30 should be filed by the 'House Master'.

The same law defines House Master as;

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

So the OP could file the TM30 as the tenant (as I did).

There is no law though that says the Thai landlord must supply copies of his ID card and Tabian Baan to a foreigner, although these are the documents the Immigration are requesting more and more. Immigration should be doing more in these situations, if it's something they require, then they should contact the landlord on behalf of the tenant to pursue his documents.

[sandyf]

Have you tried doing it online?

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/812263-online-90-day-reporting-available-from-april-1st/

Only one problem with online reporting. I was advised by Immigrattion last week, that you need IE10. Any other version of IE ( I also had this problem with Opera browser) you get "Security Certificate" warnings, as Immigration have not updated their security certificates, and have no plan to do so in the short term. Also, there is no provision to attach copies of your passport cover page, last entry stamp etc. so your online 90 report will most likely be rejected, as mine was, for not providing copies of the required documents.

As for the items listed by the poster, I've never had to produce copies of any documentation other than those mentioned above. Good luck.

It doesn't make any difference, just skip the warning. I have just done it with IE7 and worked ok. No documents were required and approved within 48 hours.

[elviajero]

He is not abusing his authority, he is required to enter details on the OP's record of his address and the details of the owner who is leasing the property with supportive documentation. It is the landlord that is abusing the OP by refusing to supply those documents.

Yes, you have a point, it's the landlords responsibility to comply. It's also a criminal offence not to.

Unfortunately Bill it is not solely the landlords responsibility. The law states a TM30 should be filed by the 'House Master'.

The same law defines House Master as;

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

So the OP could file the TM30 as the tenant (as I did).

There is no law though that says the Thai landlord must supply copies of his ID card and Tabian Baan to a foreigner, although these are the documents the Immigration are requesting more and more. Immigration should be doing more in these situations, if it's something they require, then they should contact the landlord on behalf of the tenant to pursue his documents.

You are right Faz. The law is clear about who can complete the TM30, but I think immigration are more often that not now wanting the owner/landlord to complete it. My office have asked for a TM30 from my wife (owner) for my last two extensions. So they've now had 3 and I haven't moved since the first.

The purpose of section 38 is to keep a track of where a foreigner is staying and it is daft that a foreigner can self certify. I doubt that was ever the intention when the immigration act was written.

As I see it the house-master, owner or possessor can submit the TM30 when the foreigner first moves in, but when it comes to extensions of stay they want the owner, or anyone other than the foreigner that qualifies to complete the TM30, to submit the form with ID as certification that the foreigner is living in the property. From the OP report they seem to also be applying that to 'O-A' holders too.

[Maestro]

The law is clear about who can complete the TM30, but I think immigration are more often that not now wanting the owner/landlord to complete it. My office have asked for a TM30 from my wife (owner) for my last two extensions. So they've now had 3 and I haven't moved since the first.

The purpose of section 38 is to keep a track of where a foreigner is staying and it is daft that a foreigner can self certify. I doubt that was ever the intention when the immigration act was written.

As I see it the house-master, owner or possessor can submit the TM30 when the foreigner first moves in, but when it comes to extensions of stay they want the owner, or anyone other than the foreigner that qualifies to complete the TM30, to submit the form with ID as certification that the foreigner is living in the property. From the OP report they seem to also be applying that to 'O-A' holders too.

I see it differently. For the purpose of immigration law and procedures, the official and legal definition of "house master" is the one in section 4 of the Immigration Act:

Section 4 : In this Act :

...

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of

owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

...

From a legislative point of view, it makes no sense and it is wrong to use any term other than "House Master" in subsequent sections of the law when the "House Master" is meant.

It is wrong to say in section 38 "The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence...". Correctly, it should say only "The House Master of the residence..."

It is wrong to say in section 87 "The house master, owner, or possessor of a dwelling place,...". Correctly, it should say only "The House Master of a dwelling place..."

When I rent a house or an apartment, I am the House Master, ie I am the chief possessor of the residence in the capacity of tenant, exactly as defined in section 4. I see no other way to interpret this definition in section 4, and I see no reason to doubt that the legislators intended it exactly that way.

The last paragraph of section 38 says "Making notification , in reference to the Para 1 and 2 of this Section , must comply with

regulations prescribed by the Director General". Therefore, somewhere between section 38 of the Immigration Act and the form TM.30 there is a regulation issued by the Director General of the Police Department. Unfortunately, finding this regulation is more difficult than finding a needle in a haystack. I would very much like to see whether it refers to the House Master in a way that is yet again different from the official definition given in section 4 of the Immigration Act.

At the end of this chain of command, if we want to call it that, is the form TM.30, the title of which should correctly be "NOTIFICATION FORM FOR HOUSE MASTER OF THE RESIDENCE...", not "NOTIFICATION FROM FOR HOUSE-MASTER, OWNER OR THE POSSESSOR OF THE RESIDENCE...". Below the field for the signature on this form, it should correctly say "HOUSE MASTER", not "HOUSE–MASTER, OWNER OR POSSESSOR OR RESIDENCE"

Given the use of these different terms in different documents, yet all meant to refer to the House Master as defined in section 4 of the Immigration Act, it is no wonder that some immigration officers are confused as to who is legally obliged to submit the form TM.30, and if ever a case should go to court, some judge might be similarly confused.

The varying terminology quoted above is, of course, from a translation of the original Thai text of the Immigration Act, which one would have to refer, and I have yet to see a translation of any Thai law that does not use at least two different English terms for a specific Thai term. The Thai term เคหสถาน, in the list of definitions in section 4 of the Immigration Act translated as "Dwelling Place", can serve as an example. The same Thai term is used three times in section 38, but translated there once as "residence", the other two times correctly as "dwelling place", and in section 87, correctly translated as "dwelling place". Granted, dwelling place and residence may be or are the same thing, but any translator worth his salt would never, once a term has been defined in a legal text or other document, use any English translation for this term other than the one he has used in the definition of the term.

[Liquorice]

If I understand the latest information correctly, in 2013 immigration set up a system that is programmed to require unnecessary information in connection with the form TM.30, which is all about the house master, ie possessor, of the residence, not its owner.

If a foreigner throws a bomb and the police cannot catch him at his rented apartment, do the intend to arrest and jail the apartment owner instead?

There are two distinct different types of documentation Immigration are now requesting more and more.

1. The TM30 filed by the house master, not necessarily the owner to report an aliens residence at a given address.

The TM30 form is stuffed in your paper documents file at your Immigration office.

I saw no mention on the computerised database to suggest a TM30 had or hadn't been received.

2. Copies of the house owners ID card and Tabian Baan.

In the case of rented properties the owner who is renting the house (landlord)

In the case of privately owned property the wife or girlfriend who may or may not own the property.

On the computerised database there is a section to enter these details. I read it as a Thai contact for the foreigner.

They are not connected in my opinion. The TM30 is as required by the Immigration Act.

The copies of landlords, wife's, girlfriend ID is a requirement of Immigration stored on their local database.

[elviajero]

If I understand the latest information correctly, in 2013 immigration set up a system that is programmed to require unnecessary information in connection with the form TM.30, which is all about the house master, ie possessor, of the residence, not its owner.

If a foreigner throws a bomb and the police cannot catch him at his rented apartment, do the intend to arrest and jail the apartment owner instead?

There are two distinct different types of documentation Immigration are now requesting more and more.

1. The TM30 filed by the house master, not necessarily the owner to report an aliens residence at a given address.

The TM30 form is stuffed in your paper documents file at your Immigration office.

I saw no mention on the computerised database to suggest a TM30 had or hadn't been received.

2. Copies of the house owners ID card and Tabian Baan.

In the case of rented properties the owner who is renting the house (landlord)

In the case of privately owned property the wife or girlfriend who may or may not own the property.

On the computerised database there is a section to enter these details. I read it as a Thai contact for the foreigner.

They are not connected in my opinion. The TM30 is as required by the Immigration Act.

The copies of landlords, wife's, girlfriend ID is a requirement of Immigration stored on their local database.

I totally agree and they are not connected.

However, it seems that when asking for the landlords ID/Tabien baan at extension time they (more often) are asking for a new TM30 too. The TM30 is superfluous in my opinion if it has already been submitted once to comply with section 38.

[Samuel25241]

Hi guys,

Been renting a condo in Nonthaburi for 2 months. Made sure the owner knew the requirement of reporting my residence at time of rental. I am on a Non Imm-O-A visa, entered country on July 27th from US.

Ok. Today I went to immigration to make my first 90 day report. The officer wasn't really friendly, but managed to explain to my wife what we lacked.

1. We had no TM-30 copy to verify that the landlord ever reported us. I didn't know I was supposed to get a copy of this.

2. No copy of the landlord's ID card.

3. No copy of the house book pages.

Great, Left with this knowledge and had the wife call the landlord. There wound up being a very heated conversation, the details of which really don't matter. Suffice to say that she is currently out of the country and even if she agreed to do the paperwork, she has no access to the ta bien baan (sp?). The result was the the landlord is not to be bothered with the paperwork we need.

I am not here to cry about this, as it is my fault for not following up with the landlord earlier to see if they did the required paperwork. I am just looking for solutions.

Great, great. So, long term, obviously we need to secure another place to live. But the short term is the real issue here. My report is due on the 25th (this coming Sunday) which means my window extends 7 days after that. So looks like I have about 10 days to overcome this problem.

I see my short term options are twofold:

A. Do a border run. Would a simple van run, in and out, suffice, or do I need to fly out and return? And what address information do I give when I reenter? (Expensive option)

or

B.Hurriedly try to find a new place to live that has a landlord that will quickly file the required papers and hope I can get it all done in 10 days. (expensive, too)

If there are other options, I am eager to hear them.

Thank you,

Michael

Hi. I have this problem currently.

Just get your landlord ID card copy signed by her. And give her the form to fill out (immigration should give it to you). Return with these things and it should be fine. I think they've changed rules on notification of residence. As it seems much harsher now.

[Liquorice]

I see your point Maestro, but, for example what if I was married and living in the home owned by my wife.

I would neither be the house master or chief possessor of the residency in capacity of tenant.

In this case the house master would be the owner.

A Hotel owner may have a manager running the business.

In his capacity as manager he would be the house master.

In it's open form the TM30 can literally be completed by anyone.

The OP's major problem was that the IO refused his 90 day report because he could not supply copies of the Condo owners (landlord) ID card and Tabian Baan.

[Maestro]

That begins to make some sense now: a contact in Thailand for the foreigner, for record purposes, unrelated to the legal requirement of submitting the form TM.30. Nonetheless, if an immigration officer insists on getting the details (copy of ID card and house registration book) of a Thai owner living, for example, in the United States, it begs the question of how useful a contact this is. In such case, if it is a rented condo, the Juristic Person Manager would certainly be a better candidate for a useful contact person.

[Liquorice]

If I understand the latest information correctly, in 2013 immigration set up a system that is programmed to require unnecessary information in connection with the form TM.30, which is all about the house master, ie possessor, of the residence, not its owner.

If a foreigner throws a bomb and the police cannot catch him at his rented apartment, do the intend to arrest and jail the apartment owner instead?

There are two distinct different types of documentation Immigration are now requesting more and more.

1. The TM30 filed by the house master, not necessarily the owner to report an aliens residence at a given address.

The TM30 form is stuffed in your paper documents file at your Immigration office.

I saw no mention on the computerised database to suggest a TM30 had or hadn't been received.

2. Copies of the house owners ID card and Tabian Baan.

In the case of rented properties the owner who is renting the house (landlord)

In the case of privately owned property the wife or girlfriend who may or may not own the property.

On the computerised database there is a section to enter these details. I read it as a Thai contact for the foreigner.

They are not connected in my opinion. The TM30 is as required by the Immigration Act.

The copies of landlords, wife's, girlfriend ID is a requirement of Immigration stored on their local database.

I totally agree and they are not connected.

However, it seems that when asking for the landlords ID/Tabien baan at extension time they (more often) are asking for a new TM30 too. The TM30 is superfluous in my opinion if it has already been submitted once to comply with section 38.

I have only ever filed two TM30's. One for each of the residences I have rented.

I am asked for copies of my landlords ID card and house book every time I do an extension AND if doing a 90 day report in person or by post.

Ironically I don't need anything doing it online.

I can understand supplying a TM30 and copies of your landlords ID, house book when first registering with Immigration, but provided their are no changes to your address why the continual request for more of the same documents.

[Maestro]

It is because of this archaic habit in Thailand of getting copies of ID and house registration every time a document is signed. This happens not only with immigration and other government agencies, but also with banks and other private businesses. It is intended as confirmation of the signatory's identity and place of residence at the time the document is signed or, as we have now learnt, a Thai contact person has to be put on file by the immigration office.