Koh Tao Murders: Defense Asks Court to Drop Charges

[Gweiloman]

This link is to a search made on Washingtons Posts website.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/newssearch/?query=Koh+Tao

There's nothing said about confession to the reporter of WP, but if Lucky11 has a link, show it and I will beg you pardon.

Article purporting their innocence by Terrence McCoy Oct 10th 2014

Now there’s confusion over the condoms. In the migrants’ purported confession, they said they hadn’t used a condom when sexually assaulting Witheridge — despite the fact police said their sperm was found on a condom linked to the scene.

Condom? What condom? Was a condom produced in court as evidence?

[hutchings1963]

This case was already decided before it even started,the police knew who really done it by the passing of brown envelopes.

[KamalaRider]

Thailand has lost all crdibility in this situation. Now it comes down to how do they lie their way out to save face in thailand only. The rest of the worid has accepted that the men charged are innocent and justice isnot being served.

How can you, or anyone else know what the "rest of the world" think and accept?

Apart from Thailand. Myanmar and the UK, the media interest won't be that great.

What is apparent is the total lack of professional competence within the RTP, from CSI, to following up and questioning witnesses and suspects, through to presenting evidence. Completely shambolic and clueless.

What they seem to be good at is allowing "interested" parties to direct their actions towards a conclusion that satisfies those parties and might appear to solve the case. They can't get away with it now as easily as the used to. But, they won't give a fig about what anyone outside of Thailand thinks; or anyone inside who isn't Thai and influential.

Feel for the bereaved families. The way this has all been conducted must make a nightmare scenario even worse.

You most probably haven't followed what the press in Australia, NZ, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Germany and almost the rest of Europe have written or shown on TV have said about it?

I haven't read what the rest of the world have written about this case, but the absolute majority have more or less leaned towards what most of us here are saying, they are scapegoats.

What you need to know is that most press from the western world still awaits solid and not fabricated evidence against the two poor guys before stating a definit opinion, but none have been presented to the court, alas, they haven't done it, the "world" knows about it.

There's thousands of articles written about this heinous crime in a lot of countries.

No I haven't. Neither do I think Europe and the Antipodes represents the "rest of the world"; or that the views expressed in the press represent what the "rest of the world" thinks. They represent the views of their owners and editorial staff a la Murdoch.

You haven't read what's been written, but know what "the absolute majority have leaned towards" and that "there's thousands of articles" ? Hmmm. How long have you had these psychic powers? Win lots of lotteries then?

The media will milk this for a while. One or two may make genuine attempts at presenting all sides and all facts, as known. Then like all those other unsolved or miscarriages of justice, it will fade away.

The cavalry ain't gonna charge in and put everything to right. Not here, and not in most other countries these days.

You are right when it comes to this heinous crime, it will fade away, it will, but you would be surprised how many people reading upon news from Thailand.

Before 2010, about 400 000 Swedish people came for a holiday or to spend their retirement in Thailand, PER YEAR.

A lot of them have taken Thailand to their hearts and was and still are VERY concerned about news from Thailand. Imaging the rest of "world", they aren't much different from Swedes.

The whole world doesn't mean individuals, as we can't know what every individual thinks or knows, it was most probably meant news reporting about Thailand.

One national news paper or TV channel most often have at least 10% of the population reading or watching the news in Europe and I guess the US.

If the same story is reported more than once, more viewers are aware of news seeping out from Thailand.

Do people care, yes they do as ALL my friends from Sweden won't visit Thailand anymore because of many things, including the murders in Koh Tao, not only the case discussed.

Now, 2015, I have to visit them if I want to have a social life because of the MANY disturbing events and treatments tourists, foreign workers and expats get.

Media milk because they know they have viewers, that's how media works.

[Thaidream]

Having read though this case and the 'evidence' presented I would have to say the prosecution has not proved its case- the DNA has to be excluded as there is no chain of custody and the crime scene contaminated. There is no motive presented that makes sense. The 'confessions' have to be discounted even if you believe there was no coercion as the 'interpreter' was pulled off the street and spoke a different dialect than the accused. Th phone found means nothing - what might have been on it may mean something but no evidence presented in this regard. If they are found not guilty they still won't be freed as the Prosecutor has the right to appeal and they remain in custody unless bail granted. Their only way to actual freedom is if the case is dropped without prejudice. If they are found guilty- the defense will appeal and the case will wind its way up to the Supreme Court. I see no speedy resolution to this tragedy.

[lucky11]

No!! nothing to do with it.

All i am saying that any evidence either way to do with DNA on/not on the hoe is inadmissible according to Pornthip's statement.

[KamalaRider]

I have quoted the source of this article on numerous occasions and it is not false - it's amazing how careless people can be (especially when they are not the sharpest tool in the box) when they are trying to cover something up in sheer panic. It wasn't Wei who broke and disposed of it, it was his innocent friend who didn't want to be associated with her rape and their murders!!

It IS false as the WP didn't intervju the two Burmesians.

here's a link to the original report, me thinks. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Prosecutors-seek-changes-30245056.html

A Thai news agency, NOT Washington Post and they refer to 3'rd person talking to the two boys.

Don't you have a link to the INTERVJU supposed to been made by a reporter?

[realenglish1]

These guys need to be made whole again. Compensation as well as Thai citizenship along with an apology will help .

Its rather clear they did not do it . Lets hope this goes as a lesson to the police to stop jumping to conclusion and try and do good police work

Not the shoddy work they have done i the past

[stephenterry]

If there is, as Pornthip stated not enough evidence to substantiate either parties claims then neither can use this as evidence, so it can be eliminated as being of any use or relevance to the case.

She is not interested in what it means - all this glorified primadonna is trying to do is rubbish the RTA's forensics performance as she was irked at being overlooked.

If she is as good as she claims then you have to believe that the evidence relating to DNA on the hoe has been compromised and doesn't prove anything to anyone rendering it inconclusive.

Which is why the defence has asked for the case to be dismissed. Cannot rely on prosecution's alleged DNA evidence. As to the hoe - the alleged murder weapon - the presence of both victims DNA and two other unidentified samples - yet a total absence of any of the B2 DNA can hardly be called 'compromised'. Maybe start a conspiracy that Ms Pornthip deliberately withheld any evidence which would implicate the B2 - as you seem to cast dispersions on her motives. But I forgot, she would have presented the court with the documented results and accredited CoC carried out to the exacting international standards etc. etc. which is what the prosecution failed to do.

Shucks...

[HUH]

No!! nothing to do with it.

All i am saying that any evidence either way to do with DNA on/not on the hoe is inadmissible according to Pornthip's statement.

Wrong, the judge allowed DR Pornthip to forensically test the Hoe, the RTP failed to do this. The results were the DNA of Hannah and David on the handle. This is fact. What is also fact is that The DNA of the B2 was not. The evidence was presented in court and is admissable

[smedly]

No!! nothing to do with it.

All i am saying that any evidence either way to do with DNA on/not on the hoe is inadmissible according to Pornthip's statement.

so along with the confessions and all other claimed dna evidence - none of it is admissible - where is the case against the accused ? it doesn't and never did exist

[FangFerang]

Thailand has lost all crdibility in this situation. Now it comes down to how do they lie their way out to save face in thailand only. The rest of the worid has accepted that the men charged are innocent and justice isnot being served.

How can you, or anyone else know what the "rest of the world" think and accept?

Apart from Thailand. Myanmar and the UK, the media interest won't be that great.

What is apparent is the total lack of professional competence within the RTP, from CSI, to following up and questioning witnesses and suspects, through to presenting evidence. Completely shambolic and clueless.

What they seem to be good at is allowing "interested" parties to direct their actions towards a conclusion that satisfies those parties and might appear to solve the case. They can't get away with it now as easily as the used to. But, they won't give a fig about what anyone outside of Thailand thinks; or anyone inside who isn't Thai and influential.

Feel for the bereaved families. The way this has all been conducted must make a nightmare scenario even worse.

Nope. It's all over the US press, too. And those voices also carry...

As Laurel said "Another fine mess we've gotten ourselves into, Stanley."

[webfact]

Thailand murders: Defence closes trial with 'unreliable' evidence claim

LONDON: -- The trial of two men who deny murdering two British tourists in Thailand has ended with defence claims that prosecution evidence is "unreliable".

Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were found dead on the island of Koh Tao last year.

The defence team for the two Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo said there was no DNA evidence linking them to the crimes.
Judges are expected to deliver their verdicts on 24 December.

The bodies of the British pair were found on a beach on 15 September 2014.

Ms Witheridge, from Hemsby in Norfolk, had been raped while Mr Miller, from Jersey, was hit over the head before drowning in the sea.
Post-mortem examinations showed both had suffered severe head wounds.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-34638971


-- BBC 2015-10-27

[stephenterry]

No!! nothing to do with it.

All i am saying that any evidence either way to do with DNA on/not on the hoe is inadmissible according to Pornthip's statement.

so along with the confessions and all other claimed dna evidence - none of it is admissible - where is the case against the accused ? it doesn't and never did exist

Whilst I completely agree, the fact that it is the RTP who are asserting that the B2 carried out the crimes, is the norm here for gaining a conviction. There doesn't have to be any evidence submitted, just their say-so. I am sure this trial has been a revelation to the Thai authorities who could not have thought that the case could or would be challenged. My concern is that the RTP will HAVE to be believed, to maintain their organisational credibility at all influential levels of Thai society, and therefore a guilty verdict should be expected - with the option of an appeal.

[oldsailor35]

Well the real Killers are well gone so doubt if there will be a new Investigation Maybe they should offer cash Reward for the Police

On the contrary ! I think that the real killers are still on Koh Tao and in a position of power.

[B166ER]

....hmmmm....99% of comments here are positive.....seems to be an annoying 1% negative creep. You know people who lived outside of Concentration camps swore till they were blue in the face that they were innocent too. Didn't know what was going on in the camps. Couldn't smell it, see it, feel it. Didn't see all the comings and goings, the vast amount of people entering but never leaving.....I could go on. There are a lot of naysayers of that event too. The moral majority of the world however didn't believe.

This trial screams with injustice and an "I didn't know" attitude. There are a lot of people who "do know". I'm not a religious person but I do believe in what's right. For the B2 to die for someone else's human failings and those who rubs their hands in anticipation makes them no different than those who committed crimes against humanity so many years ago. In a perfect world the perp's would be caught and rightfully punished according to our laws. The failings of so many on so many levels just boggles the mind. All are complicit in their own way in a crime against humanity. Like those who stood around, heads bowed and shuffled their feet so many years ago, "Those who do not learn (from) history are doomed to repeat it" I wish I could embed that into the thoughts of all happy "I didn't know" tourists who wistfully, knowingly suntan and splash around in the waters of a footprint of an island in the south of Asia's vacation paradise....

[lovelomsak]

This is a good example of loss of face by people with power is more important than loss of life of a poor person.

[CharlieH]

Do you really want another thread on this topic CLOSED ?

How many more times, debate the issue NOT the poster or make accusations of "agenda's".

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !

Posting Content & General Conduct

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[gchurch259]

Forth Time; Take them to the border release them and find the real killers, probably right there on the island !!

You remember the ole Country Song, "I have friends in low places", well the killers have friends in high places !!

Or, They left the country, believe if I did that deed I would be long gone.

The truth will be known !!

[nudgerman]

Should these poor unfortunates be found guilty of these crimes, this would be a gross travesty and miss-carriage of justice to any civilized world, nation or country ..... of course that's only my opinion.

[Bung]

No closing statement from the prosecution? I guess they thought it better to keep quiet as everytime they open their mouths they make fools of themselves and show what a complete shambles this case is. The RTP must be wishing this would go away so they can go back to sitting around the station in their t shirts counting their tea money.

[z42]

Thailand murders: Defence closes trial with 'unreliable' evidence claim

LONDON: -- The trial of two men who deny murdering two British tourists in Thailand has ended with defence claims that prosecution evidence is "unreliable".

Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were found dead on the island of Koh Tao last year.

The defence team for the two Burmese migrants Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo said there was no DNA evidence linking them to the crimes.

Judges are expected to deliver their verdicts on 24 December.

The bodies of the British pair were found on a beach on 15 September 2014.

Ms Witheridge, from Hemsby in Norfolk, had been raped while Mr Miller, from Jersey, was hit over the head before drowning in the sea.

Post-mortem examinations showed both had suffered severe head wounds.

Full story: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-34638971

-- BBC 2015-10-27

While its great that media giants like the BBC carry the story it is also pretty disturbing that they continue to state that the female victim was raped when the UK coroner report said there were no indications of sexual assault taking place. Their reports are likely to do more harm than good if they continue to just trot out the same story and not even acknowledge evidence to the contrary that has been presented

[grumpyoldman]

The condom claim is just laughable, no? "Yesssiree, I might be a rapist but I'm a safe sex rapist!".

Sure, hopefully the court (and I don't have a lot of confidence here) will dismiss and then drag in all the AC bar people including stingray ring guy, Nomsod and others and get the real story out of this.

All said and done, what I think happened was the night before she lead on some Thai guys (unknowingly), Thai guy or guys bragged how they were going to get somewhere the next night, she turns him/them down publicly in the AC bar, later whilst listening to guitars on the beach takes a stroll with David and gets attacked.

It all comes back to those guys at the AC bar.

[yellowboat]

Feel sorry for the Witheridge and Miller families. It shows lack of consideration to drag this out that long and have the ruling on Christmas Eve. That is pretty low even for the self obsessed Thai government.

[phuketandsee]

Are the bookies taking bets on this and what are the odds. I would imagine about 100-1 they are found guilty.

So you think that they will be found innocent then. I wouldn't take you on as an odds placer if I had a betting shop!!

The fact that they tricked themselves into admitting the rape plus this phone issue simply confirms my long held belief that they did it.

Is there any physical evidence that they committed the crime ?

The interview they gave to the Washington Post whereby they implicated themselves by admitting that they raped her without using condoms (the reporter didn't torture them BTW as he was vehemently defending them) is enough for me - being in possession of David's phone and then smashing and trying to dispose of it in a hurry doesn't scream innocence either.

"The interview they gave to the Washington Post"

Huh? Do you seriously believe the accused were interviewed by the WP? Do you actually think the authorities would allow them to be interviewed by anyone??

It would be helpful if you could aim for a bit more accuracy in your postings.

[balo]

We are waiting for a verdict , unless there is some real news about the case maybe just avoid 100 pages of more speculatons.

[Toscano]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

[yellowboat]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

They very may well be, but the evidence to convict is questionable.

[Alration]

What makes me sad is that the prosecution still assertions that their case is watertight. If the verdict is guilty it's sick.

That's the prosecutions job, what else would they do?

[smedly]

I guess their semen found inside Miss Witheridge counts for nothing . At least they should be found guilty of rape and necrophilia .

Thailand risks being dubbed an unsafe holiday destination ; if you go there you have been warned and do it at your own risk .

With all the twists and turns of prosecutors , defense , police and forensics , I still believe that these to Baby Faced lads are guilty of murder .

can you prove your claims or rather can you prove the police can prove their claims, I'll answer it for you - no, the police could not back up their claims with physical and verifiable evidence, go figure

also in another quote, someone above claimed that the phone found smashed behind B2 residence was Davids phone - can you prove that or rather can you prove that the police can prove that, may I also add. whos phone was found at the crime scene - I will answer that too, it was either Davids phone (highly likely IMO) or one of the murderers

[smedly]

This link is to a search made on Washingtons Posts website.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/newssearch/?query=Koh+Tao

There's nothing said about confession to the reporter of WP, but if Lucky11 has a link, show it and I will beg you pardon.

Article purporting their innocence by Terrence McCoy Oct 10th 2014

Now there’s confusion over the condoms. In the migrants’ purported confession, they said they hadn’t used a condom when sexually assaulting Witheridge — despite the fact police said their sperm was found on a condom linked to the scene.

as has been seen throughout this case - all dna claims made/presented by prosecution and tests carried out by the police are extremely unreliable by any standard I am aware of, that is a fact

The defense were also unable to verify original samples, it is extremely unlikely if not impossible to use up samples claimed to have been taken from the victims body, also a fact

Confusion over what phone was found where and who it belonged to is also unreliable, a phone was found belonging to David (I believe that to be true) where it was found is another thing entirely

Claimed Forced confessions also unreliable because the accused had no legal council, the first question any prosecutor will ask police - when the accused were arrested and interviewed did they have legal council - no, then that evidence cannot be used in court - fact (even in Thailand)

There is not one thing from the police and prosecution that I can honestly say is reliable and I am trying to be as neutral and objective as I possibly can, IMO this case should never have gone to court, I tell it as I see it

One thing that continues to disturb me is how a certain person early on that morning at the crime scene knew the hoe was the murder weapon - knew it had been moved - and had the person that moved it put it back where he had first found it that morning, this was verified by that person in a statement to police

There is more but the above is enough for me

this post answers a lot of points that are being incorrectly made about this case