Children's Birth Certificate

[magicroundabout]

Hi All,

Sorry but another question on the Flr form for my wife's extension. It asks for birth certificates for any children. My wife has two children who stay with her parents in thailand (and are not part of the application). Do I really need to get them to post the birth certificates to the UK to be included. I can't remember including them in her original application.

Thanks again

[7by7]

The form says they should be included, so I'd include them.

I suppose the reason is so that they are on record as her children in case they apply at some future date for settlement to join her; or even just visit.

[magicroundabout]

Hi,

Received my wife's children's Birth certificates today from Thailand. Naturally they are in Thai...I know they should be certified in english but given our recent delay due to the English test I don't think we will have time. High risk strategy??

[Trevor1809]

The form says they should be included, so I'd include them.

I suppose the reason is so that they are on record as her children in case they apply at some future date for settlement to join her; or even just visit.

So just out of interest, what concern is it to UKVI regarding the sponsor's children who are British and have no connection with the visa application? I suppose they would argue that the sponsor's dependent children affect the ability to support the applicant but since the earnings requirement is met I fail to see why the sponsor's own children enter into the application.

[7by7]

I wouldn't risk it and get them translated.

I know many people have said that they haven't had translations done when applying for visas in Bangkok without any problems; but the entry clearance section in Bangkok employs Thai staff who can check documents if necessary; how many Thai speakers work for UKVI in the UK?

You should be able to get a next day, or even same day, service; but, unfortunately, having the translations done in the UK will be a lot more expensive than had they been done in Thailand before being sent to you.

Up to you, but if you do have them translated make sure the translator is aware of the Home Office requirements: each translated document must contain;

• confirmation from the translator that it is an accurate translation of the original document,
• the date of the translation,
• the translator's full name and signature,
• the translator's contact details.

[magicroundabout]

Thanks your right of course I will get them translated. I would never forgive myself if we were rejected on this issue. I think the English test thing got me down a bit but I guess we all go through at some stage in the process. Weve got our test tomorrow so hopefully we will back on track

[wooloomooloo]

So just out of interest, what concern is it to UKVI regarding the sponsor's children who are British and have no connection with the visa application?

I'm not certain the kids are British, particularly as the OP states 'My wife has two children ...', not that it would matter in this instance.

Page 59 of FLR(M):

Children’s birth certificates

An original full birth certificate i.e. one which shows the parents’ names for each of your children. This includes children applying for an extension of stay in the UK with you, as well as children not applying with you and those not subject to immigration control.

That's two original birth certificates and two translations and photocopies of them all. You should then reasonably expect the original birth certs and translations to be returned and used at a future date. Keep it simple.

Edited November 18, 2015 by wooloomooloo

[magicroundabout]

Yes the children are thai...I'm not sure of reason seems a little unessacary as they aren't part of the application but as suggested maybe it might make a future visit easier. I definitely didn't include them in our initial visa - maybe forgot or its a newish change.

[Trevor1809]

So just out of interest, what concern is it to UKVI regarding the sponsor's children who are British and have no connection with the visa application?

I'm not certain the kids are British, particularly as the OP states 'My wife has two children ...', not that it would matter in this instance.

Page 59 of FLR(M):

Children’s birth certificates

An original full birth certificate i.e. one which shows the parents’ names for each of your children. This includes children applying for an extension of stay in the UK with you, as well as children not applying with you and those not subject to immigration control.

That's two original birth certificates and two translations and photocopies of them all. You should then reasonably expect the original birth certs and translations to be returned and used at a future date. Keep it simple.

I know that the kids are Thai but he was questioning the need to supply their birth certificates if they were not part of the application. Given 7by7's suggested reason I was just questioning to logical reason, not that the UK Immigration service needs one, to see the birth certificates of the sponsor's children when those children were full British citizens?

[7by7]

Proof that they are British citizens.

[Richard W]

I know that the kids are Thai but he was questioning the need to supply their birth certificates if they were not part of the application. Given 7by7's suggested reason I was just questioning to logical reason, not that the UK Immigration service needs one, to see the birth certificates of the sponsor's children when those children were full British citizens?

What's a partial British citizen?

Perhaps they want to work out the financial benefit of driving the sponsor out of the UK. A big part of the 'cost saving' of the 2012 family settlement changes was not having to pay child benefit or child credits in respect of British citizen children who were kept out of the UK.

Could they not be used to argue that the sponsor lacked adequate accommodation?

[Jip99]

Proof that they are British citizens.

Would copies of British passports not achieve that ?

[Trevor1809]

I know that the kids are Thai but he was questioning the need to supply their birth certificates if they were not part of the application. Given 7by7's suggested reason I was just questioning to logical reason, not that the UK Immigration service needs one, to see the birth certificates of the sponsor's children when those children were full British citizens?

What's a partial British citizen?

Perhaps they want to work out the financial benefit of driving the sponsor out of the UK. A big part of the 'cost saving' of the 2012 family settlement changes was not having to pay child benefit or child credits in respect of British citizen children who were kept out of the UK.

Could they not be used to argue that the sponsor lacked adequate accommodation?

What does that have to do with asking for the birth certificates? If they asked for the Land Registry documentation I could understand it.

[Trevor1809]

Proof that they are British citizens.

?????

So what. What does my sons' nationality have to do with my wife's application. My sons have no bearing on it as far as I can see.

[7by7]

Proof that they are British citizens.

Would copies of British passports not achieve that ?

Not every British citizen has a passport, but we all have birth certificates.

Proof that they are British citizens.

?????

So what. What does my sons' nationality have to do with my wife's application. My sons have no bearing on it as far as I can see.

British children of the applicant are not included in the financial requirement, so obviously they want evidence that the children are British.

[Trevor1809]

Proof that they are British citizens.

?????

So what. What does my sons' nationality have to do with my wife's application. My sons have no bearing on it as far as I can see.

British children of the applicant are not included in the financial requirement, so obviously they want evidence that the children are British.

What!

I am talking about the British children of the sponsor not the applicant. Why does the sponsor have to supply birth certificates of his/her own children who are not in any way part of the application.

[wooloomooloo]

We are going round in circles here, Trevor. Are you okay?

[Richard W]

We are going round in circles here, Trevor. Are you okay?

I think off-target answers may be making him dizzy!

Have we actually confirmed that birth certificates are required for Trevor's children not by his wife? In the multi-page Section 13A, the current form demands, under the heading "Children's birth certificates", "An original full birth certificate i.e. one which shows the parents’ names for each of your children. This includes children applying for an extension of stay in the UK with you, as well as children not applying with you and those not subject to immigration control." (The highlighting is mine.)

I believe, but it would be as well to check before acting upon my opinion, that Trevor's wife's stepchildren count as her children only if their biological or adoptive mother is dead, and that the demand for birth certificates is only about children that count as Trevor's wife's.

There are questions in Section 4 which are clearly designed to facilitate a decision as to whether it would be unreasonable to effectively compel the children to leave the UK. I can't work out how question 4(f) "Nationality (including if they have a dual passport" is to be answered for dual national children (not yet Trevor's problem), especially as I'm not sure what a 'dual passport' is. I have my suspicions as to what that question, and therefore the rest, might also be about, but most of you seem to think I'm paranoid.

[7by7]

Proof that they are British citizens.

?????

So what. What does my sons' nationality have to do with my wife's application. My sons have no bearing on it as far as I can see.

British children of the applicant are not included in the financial requirement, so obviously they want evidence that the children are British.

What!

I am talking about the British children of the sponsor not the applicant. Why does the sponsor have to supply birth certificates of his/her own children who are not in any way part of the application.

They don't!

It is children of the applicant the form asks about and it is the birth certificates of the applicant's children that are required.

[Trevor1809]

They don't!

It is children of the applicant the form asks about and it is the birth certificates of the applicant's children that are required.

On the FLR(M) form Q 4.3 says Does your sponsor have any children living in the UK whose parent is not you.

If you have answered no to Q 4.1, 4.2 and 4.3 proceed to Section 5

4.4 If you answered yes to Q 4.1, 4.2 and/or 4.3 provide details of these children in the table below.

12.5 Have you enclosed he current passport, travel document or national id card for a dependent. (It doesn't specify whether the applicant only although it doesn't specify birth certificate).

Section 13

Children's birth certificates. An original full birth certificate ....... for each of your children. This includes ...... as well as children not applying with you and not subject to immigration control.

Whilst I agree that doesn't specify that the sponsor's children's certificates my solicitor asked that I include them. In fact since I only had the short certificate for the youngest I supplied a copy of the full certificate.

I had read the form as needing to supply them. The check list lists birth certificates.

I took that having listed my kids in 4.4 and the solicitor's request and the check list that they were needed. Put it another way, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to leave them out and risk a rejection but looking at it again it does appear that they are nor required.

[Richard W]

I am talking about the British children of the sponsor not the applicant. Why does the sponsor have to supply birth certificates of his/her own children who are not in any way part of the application.

I've realised one very relevant reason. If the financial requirement for FLR(M) (5-year route) is not met, further leave to remain on the 10-year route may be obtained under Appendix FM Section EX on the basis of a genuine and subsisting parental relationship with a British child. Stepmothers may have such a relationship if mothers have effectively vanished.