Thai officials to slash number of foreign English teachers

[brewsterbudgen]

This policy change is called social control. A population with no English skills is easier to control. Also easier to corrupt (reallocation of funds set aside for farang salaries) which means more cash for corrupt government officials.

Nonsense. However unrealistic the solution, it at least appears to be an attempt to address the issue of improving the standards of teaching English in government schools. Using professional native speaker teachers to teach the Thai teachers is a start.

'Improving the standards of teaching English in government schools'?

By teaching 500 people who can barely speak English anyway in SIX WEEKS and then expect them to teach others?

What planet are you (and the Min of Ed loonies) on?

Earth.

[Mister Fixit]

they are at home unlike you

True. I've been trying to get them to speak proper English but it's an impossible task, as 42,994 out of 43,000 have proved.

BTW, you missed a capital letter, a comma and a full stop. What English level are you at, then?

Edited November 27, 2015 by Mister Fixit

[Mister Fixit]

This policy change is called social control. A population with no English skills is easier to control. Also easier to corrupt (reallocation of funds set aside for farang salaries) which means more cash for corrupt government officials.

Nonsense. However unrealistic the solution, it at least appears to be an attempt to address the issue of improving the standards of teaching English in government schools. Using professional native speaker teachers to teach the Thai teachers is a start.

'Improving the standards of teaching English in government schools'?

By teaching 500 people who can barely speak English anyway in SIX WEEKS and then expect them to teach others?

What planet are you (and the Min of Ed loonies) on?

Earth.

It must be a parallel universe then.

[FritsSikkink]

they are at home unlike you

True. I've been trying to get them to speak proper English but it's an impossible task, as 42,994 out of 43,000 have proved

It could prove the teachers aren't any good too. Edited November 27, 2015 by FritsSikkink

[jsflynn603]

I'll bet that the six Thai teachers who are fluent in English all have something in common.

They live with an English native speaker and English is spoken every day.

Remove that connection and every teacher teaching what is not a native language for that person will fall rapidly in profiency.

With a language like Thai with it's tones and un-English like grammar if the teacher goes home at the end of the day to speak Thai, then the brain will naturally "correct" the speaker to the rules that the brain thinks should rule, which in the case of the 42,994 who failed profiency is Thai sounds and rules of grammar.

My wife's native tongue is Cebuano (East Philppine) and she's very, very good at English. One day her English changed strangely and I soon found the answer as to why. A new co-worker was hired where she works. They work together and so for much of the day she speaks Cebuano, and *poof* the r's change to w sounds and the s sound simply vaporizes and tenses/structure change, and that in one single day.

In short, it's impossible for a non-native English speaker to be an excellent teacher of English. Oh, I stand corrected it is possible and one's chance is about 6/43,000 (one chance in about 72,000) of doing a proficient job.

Edited November 27, 2015 by jsflynn603

[FritsSikkink]

I'll bet that the six Thai teachers who are fluent in English all have something in common.

They live with an English native speaker and English is spoken every day.

Remove that connection and every teacher teaching what is not a native language for that person will fall rapidly in profiency.

With a language like Thai with it's tones and un-English like grammar if the teacher goes home at the end of the day to speak Thai, then the brain will naturally "correct" the speaker to the rules that the brain thinks should rule, which in the case of the 42,994 who failed profiency is Thai sounds and rules of grammar.

My wife's native tongue is Cebuano (East Philppine) and she's very, very good at English. One day her English changed strangely and I soon found the answer as to why. A new co-worker was hired where she works. They work together and so for much of the day she speaks Cebuano, and *poof* the r's change to w sounds and the s sound simply vaporizes and tenses/structure change, and that in one single day.

In short, it's impossible for a non-native English speaker to be an excellent teacher of English. Oh, I stand corrected it is possible and one's chance is about 6/43,000 (one chance in about 72,000) of doing a proficient job.

in short, it is not impossible. in the Netherlands there are no native English teachers.

[cumgranosalum]

I'll bet that the six Thai teachers who are fluent in English all have something in common.

They live with an English native speaker and English is spoken every day.

Remove that connection and every teacher teaching what is not a native language for that person will fall rapidly in profiency.

With a language like Thai with it's tones and un-English like grammar if the teacher goes home at the end of the day to speak Thai, then the brain will naturally "correct" the speaker to the rules that the brain thinks should rule, which in the case of the 42,994 who failed profiency is Thai sounds and rules of grammar.

My wife's native tongue is Cebuano (East Philppine) and she's very, very good at English. One day her English changed strangely and I soon found the answer as to why. A new co-worker was hired where she works. They work together and so for much of the day she speaks Cebuano, and *poof* the r's change to w sounds and the s sound simply vaporizes and tenses/structure change, and that in one single day.

In short, it's impossible for a non-native English speaker to be an excellent teacher of English. Oh, I stand corrected it is possible and one's chance is about 6/43,000 (one chance in about 72,000) of doing a proficient job.

in short, it is not impossible. in the Netherlands there are no native English teachers.

Yes, there are!

[Artisi]

I'll bet that the six Thai teachers who are fluent in English all have something in common.

They live with an English native speaker and English is spoken every day.

Remove that connection and every teacher teaching what is not a native language for that person will fall rapidly in profiency.

With a language like Thai with it's tones and un-English like grammar if the teacher goes home at the end of the day to speak Thai, then the brain will naturally "correct" the speaker to the rules that the brain thinks should rule, which in the case of the 42,994 who failed profiency is Thai sounds and rules of grammar.

My wife's native tongue is Cebuano (East Philppine) and she's very, very good at English. One day her English changed strangely and I soon found the answer as to why. A new co-worker was hired where she works. They work together and so for much of the day she speaks Cebuano, and *poof* the r's change to w sounds and the s sound simply vaporizes and tenses/structure change, and that in one single day.

In short, it's impossible for a non-native English speaker to be an excellent teacher of English. Oh, I stand corrected it is possible and one's chance is about 6/43,000 (one chance in about 72,000) of doing a proficient job.

in short, it is not impossible. in the Netherlands there are no native English teachers.

Are you trying to say, no native English speaking English teachers?

[robblok]

I'll bet that the six Thai teachers who are fluent in English all have something in common.

They live with an English native speaker and English is spoken every day.

Remove that connection and every teacher teaching what is not a native language for that person will fall rapidly in profiency.

With a language like Thai with it's tones and un-English like grammar if the teacher goes home at the end of the day to speak Thai, then the brain will naturally "correct" the speaker to the rules that the brain thinks should rule, which in the case of the 42,994 who failed profiency is Thai sounds and rules of grammar.

My wife's native tongue is Cebuano (East Philppine) and she's very, very good at English. One day her English changed strangely and I soon found the answer as to why. A new co-worker was hired where she works. They work together and so for much of the day she speaks Cebuano, and *poof* the r's change to w sounds and the s sound simply vaporizes and tenses/structure change, and that in one single day.

In short, it's impossible for a non-native English speaker to be an excellent teacher of English. Oh, I stand corrected it is possible and one's chance is about 6/43,000 (one chance in about 72,000) of doing a proficient job.

in short, it is not impossible. in the Netherlands there are no native English teachers.

Are you trying to say, no native English speaking English teachers?

True many Dutch speak good English and there are no native English speaking teachers.

But almost all our TV programs are in English with Dutch subtitles. That helps a lot. So in reality its not needed if Thailand did the same.

Before in Germany their English was worse as in the Netherlands as they had all their TV programs in German. After that changed you could see the progress.

[FritsSikkink]

I'll bet that the six Thai teachers who are fluent in English all have something in common.

They live with an English native speaker and English is spoken every day.

Remove that connection and every teacher teaching what is not a native language for that person will fall rapidly in profiency.

With a language like Thai with it's tones and un-English like grammar if the teacher goes home at the end of the day to speak Thai, then the brain will naturally "correct" the speaker to the rules that the brain thinks should rule, which in the case of the 42,994 who failed profiency is Thai sounds and rules of grammar.

My wife's native tongue is Cebuano (East Philppine) and she's very, very good at English. One day her English changed strangely and I soon found the answer as to why. A new co-worker was hired where she works. They work together and so for much of the day she speaks Cebuano, and *poof* the r's change to w sounds and the s sound simply vaporizes and tenses/structure change, and that in one single day.

In short, it's impossible for a non-native English speaker to be an excellent teacher of English. Oh, I stand corrected it is possible and one's chance is about 6/43,000 (one chance in about 72,000) of doing a proficient job.

in short, it is not impossible. in the Netherlands there are no native English teachers.

Are you trying to say, no native English speaking English teachers?

yes

[JAG]

I can't help thinking that if a Thai can speak English to the level which this program requires, then they will almost certainly be able to use that skill in a much more lucrative job than teaching!

[duanebigsby]

please note, that only Goverment schools are involved on this issue. Private schools still can employ Foreign Teachers.

And as most foreign teachers are employed at language institutes, private schools, universities or in the corporate sector, they will be entirely unaffected by this. But it does make for a good story and a popular thread!

Gov't schools employ tons of foreigners. Every school of any size has a dozen or so.

Do they work in conjunction with the Thai English teachers? How do they survive on the salary?

I survive quite well on the salary.

At the high school level I'm left to design my own curriculum, but yes, I work with my Thai co-teachers who, contrary to what everyone says, speak English at a high level.

[duanebigsby]

"Seriously though, even the most alcohol addled whore-monger can teach/speak English better than the vast majority of Thai English teachers."

99.9% of the English speakers in the world don't understand Cockney, so no.

I've heard Thai teachers speak English better than many people I met in England and Scotland, 555

English should be taught using "Received Pronunciation".

Sadly few "english" teachers in Thailand would meet the standard!

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

[Tolley]

I doubt it will make very much difference replacing native speaking English teachers most of whom have no quals and are in Thailand for a lark.

May as well give the jobs to Thais even if they are incompetent as least it provides more local jobs.

How could the results be any worse for the students given the current level of English competency?

They would be better placed to learn Chinese in any case and at least Chinese has more similarities with Thai than English so they should be able to learn it a bit easier.

[expatbrit]

"Seriously though, even the most alcohol addled whore-monger can teach/speak English better than the vast majority of Thai English teachers."

99.9% of the English speakers in the world don't understand Cockney, so no.

I've heard Thai teachers speak English better than many people I met in England and Scotland, 555

English should be taught using "Received Pronunciation".

Sadly few "english" teachers in Thailand would meet the standard!

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

I speak with a RP accent and I am not "posh" just well educated !

[Caitrin]

English should be taught using "Received Pronunciation".

Sadly few "english" teachers in Thailand would meet the standard!

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

"Why can't the English teach their children how to speak? This verbal class distinction, by now, should be extinct. If you spoke as she does, sir, instead of the way you do, why you might be selling flowers, too. An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him. As soon as he opens his mouth, he makes some other Englishman despise him. A common language I'm afraid we'll never get!

"Oh, why can't the English learn to... set a good example to people whose English is painful to your ears? The Scots and the Irish leave you close to tears. There are even places where English completely disappears...

"Where in America, they haven't used it for years!"

Frankly, as I have argued earlier in the thread, I feel like you should use the "standard, educated" pronunciation used in your mainstream journalism. If that's received pronunciation for Oncearugge, then he should use that pronunciation. For me, despite Henry Higgens' comments to the contrary, it's SAE or "Broadcast English," the educated, academic pronunciation in the United States. For others, it will be other types of pronunciation. The point here is "standard, educated" and "mainstream journalism." The goal is to give your students a pronunciation which will allow them to understand and communicate in English in the widest possible manner. And for that, we need to teach in one of the standard pronunciations, but we don't need to teach only in what one might hear in the quads of Eaton.

Can I fake Received Pronunciation? Yes, I can. Should I have any reason to do so? Of course not. The idea is ridiculous.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Caitrin

[simon43]

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents

You're making an incorrect assumption. RP is not a 'posh' English accent. It is considered to be the accent that is typically spoken by those living in the south-east of England.

It is not English as is spoken by HM Queen of England. Nor is it the English as is spoken on the BBC (used to be many years ago).

I certainly don't consider myself to be 'posh'. But I was raised by my academic parents to speak RP, primarily because it made sense to naturally speak with an accent that is easy for all to understand.

It seems to work OK for me - I was the most popular ESL teacher at my school in Myanmar a few years ago, because all my students (young and old), could understand my RP accent.

But in my classes for ESL adult learners, I covered other regional accents (Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Australian, USA, Scouse, Cockney, Brummie etc etc), with audio file examples.

As far as the Scouse, Scottish, Brummie etc accents were concerned, my students thought that I had suddenly started to teach them a whole new language...

[kaorop]

"Seriously though, even the most alcohol addled whore-monger can teach/speak English better than the vast majority of Thai English teachers."

99.9% of the English speakers in the world don't understand Cockney, so no.

I've heard Thai teachers speak English better than many people I met in England and Scotland, 555

English should be taught using "Received Pronunciation".

Sadly few "english" teachers in Thailand would meet the standard!

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

Except that, that pronunciation is quite clear and one of the most easily understood.

I was sent to elocution lesson when I was young so I wouldnt sound like a bogan/chav/hillbilly/somchai.

[taff33]

It seems like that a lot of English "teachers "are worried about their jobs/work permits that they won't be able to stay in Thailand,don't worry if you have the skills you can get a job in another country,those that don't tough.Its what this country wants,you won't change it,even if it's a stupid thing to do.

[duanebigsby]

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents

You're making an incorrect assumption. RP is not a 'posh' English accent. It is considered to be the accent that is typically spoken by those living in the south-east of England.

It is not English as is spoken by HM Queen of England. Nor is it the English as is spoken on the BBC (used to be many years ago).

I certainly don't consider myself to be 'posh'. But I was raised by my academic parents to speak RP, primarily because it made sense to naturally speak with an accent that is easy for all to understand.

It seems to work OK for me - I was the most popular ESL teacher at my school in Myanmar a few years ago, because all my students (young and old), could understand my RP accent.

But in my classes for ESL adult learners, I covered other regional accents (Scottish, Welsh, Irish, Australian, USA, Scouse, Cockney, Brummie etc etc), with audio file examples.

As far as the Scouse, Scottish, Brummie etc accents were concerned, my students thought that I had suddenly started to teach them a whole new language...

To be told that I should teach with an accent that is restricted to the southeast corner of England is what I'm against.

I am consistently told that I am easiest foreigner to understand in my school as well. I do not have an RP accent.

[duanebigsby]

"Seriously though, even the most alcohol addled whore-monger can teach/speak English better than the vast majority of Thai English teachers."

99.9% of the English speakers in the world don't understand Cockney, so no.

I've heard Thai teachers speak English better than many people I met in England and Scotland, 555

English should be taught using "Received Pronunciation".

Sadly few "english" teachers in Thailand would meet the standard!

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

Except that, that pronunciation is quite clear and one of the most easily understood.

I was sent to elocution lesson when I was young so I wouldnt sound like a bogan/chav/hillbilly/somchai.

'one of the most easily understood"

Agreed, but so is the Canadian and northwest and midwest US accents.

A Thai student is for more likely to meet an Aussie than a Brit with an RP accent. They will need exposure to many accents before getting the language.

[Caitrin]

The midwest US accent is about as close to SAE as is naturally to be found in amongst Americans, in my opinion. Having lived all over the country. However, SAE is actually constructed. It's a real accent for those who are raised in educated households with generations of high levels of education, typically, especially if those families have moved around a lot, but otherwise it's not found "in the wild." It's the accent one is taught through education, sometimes intentionally. In my course of study at the university level, I took diction classes, which focused on SAE, and clearly enunciating it. The clear enunciation is probably the most important part of teaching understandable English, but using standardised accents, again, opens up a much larger range of learning material, in my view.

[kaorop]

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

Except that, that pronunciation is quite clear and one of the most easily understood.

I was sent to elocution lesson when I was young so I wouldnt sound like a bogan/chav/hillbilly/somchai.

'one of the most easily understood"

Agreed, but so is the Canadian and northwest and midwest US accents.

A Thai student is for more likely to meet an Aussie than a Brit with an RP accent. They will need exposure to many accents before getting the language.

Yes they are, but there should be 1 standard and as its the "mother tongue" and the one that all other are derived from, that may as well be it.

And its difficult explaining to a Thai that when working with or meeting an Aussie they will probably hear the "F" word in every sentence, but it has multiple meanings and they may not be not swearing at you. 5555

Edited November 28, 2015 by kaorop

[Caitrin]

Kaorop... May I ask if you actually spent a great deal of time studying the evolution of human language as part of your teaching course of study? I ask because the idea you're espousing here about "mother tongue," is... not to put too fine a point on it, total bilge. The various versions of English, including the English used in the South-East of Merry Old England, are never not in flux. It is not the tongue it was when American pronunciation and vocabulary began to diverge. The same is to be said of Australian pronunciation. Or we could speak of modern Parisian French versus that spoken in Marseilles or Quebec.

Just one example is the vocabulary word, "rubbish." It dates from well after the point of American independence. Before that, "trash" was used by the English in England.

If you're teaching your students that your form of English is "the original," you are passing on an inaccurate account of English's evolution, both in the "motherland" and in her various "colonies." Quite imperialist of you, but also quite wrong.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Caitrin

[kaorop]

Kaorop... May I ask if you actually spent a great deal of time studying the evolution of human language as part of your teaching course of study? I ask because the idea you're espousing here about "mother tongue," is... not to put too fine a point on it, total bilge. The various versions of English, including the English used in the South-East of Merry Old England, are never not in flux. It is not the tongue it was when American pronunciation and vocabulary began to diverge. The same is to be said of Australian pronunciation. Or we could speak of modern Parisian French versus that spoken in Marseilles or Quebec.

Just one example is the vocabulary word, "rubbish." It dates from well after the point of American independence. Before that, "trash" was used by the English in England.

If you're teaching your students that your form of English is "the original," you are passing on an inaccurate account of English's evolution, both in the "motherland" and in her various "colonies." Quite imperialist of you, but also quite wrong.

wrong again my man

now that this forums s/w in all its inabilities has deleted my post.

all i will say is I always play with language, accents, tones, rhythms, etc one of my longest standing heroes is the "man of a thousand voices" look him up if you dont know who he is.

BTW

The Cambridge Encyclopedia of language

The Dinkum Aussie Dictionary

An Introduction to Language

American Negros Songs and Spirituals

are just a few of my go toos, (but quite some goes over my head)

Edited November 28, 2015 by kaorop

[Caitrin]

Actually, I'm a woman.

And really, I was just contradicting your comment that "all others are derived" from RP. That's not true. I'm glad you introduce other accents. That's definitely a very good thing. I just wanted make it clear that what we have amongst all of the current Englishes (plural) is parallel development. Your English has not maintained itself unchanged throughout the centuries while all others have diverged from it. That's not how language works.

[brewsterbudgen]

It seems like that a lot of English "teachers "are worried about their jobs/work permits that they won't be able to stay in Thailand,don't worry if you have the skills you can get a job in another country,those that don't tough.Its what this country wants,you won't change it,even if it's a stupid thing to do.

I don't think English teachers in Thailand need to worry at all. There will still be a huge demand for native speaker English teachers in language schools, universities, private schools and for corporate classes.

[JAG]

I doubt it will make very much difference replacing native speaking English teachers most of whom have no quals and are in Thailand for a lark.

May as well give the jobs to Thais even if they are incompetent as least it provides more local jobs.

How could the results be any worse for the students given the current level of English competency?

They would be better placed to learn Chinese in any case and at least Chinese has more similarities with Thai than English so they should be able to learn it a bit easier.

You obviously know the cubed root of <deleted> all about how one becomes a Native English Speaking teacher in Thailand.

[duanebigsby]

So you are advocating that Thai students should be taught a pronunciation and accent that only a very few people of Southern England and the aristocracy speak.

What about all the other English spoken around the world?

More Thais will be exposed to Aussies, Yanks, non RP Brits, Canucks and Europeans, etc, than posh English accents.

Except that, that pronunciation is quite clear and one of the most easily understood.

I was sent to elocution lesson when I was young so I wouldnt sound like a bogan/chav/hillbilly/somchai.

'one of the most easily understood"

Agreed, but so is the Canadian and northwest and midwest US accents.

A Thai student is for more likely to meet an Aussie than a Brit with an RP accent. They will need exposure to many accents before getting the language.

Yes they are, but there should be 1 standard and as its the "mother tongue" and the one that all other are derived from, that may as well be it.

And its difficult explaining to a Thai that when working with or meeting an Aussie they will probably hear the "F" word in every sentence, but it has multiple meanings and they may not be not swearing at you. 5555

Disagree that you could have a standard English to be taught.

There is no such thing as a "mother tongue" for the English language. It evolved from too many sources to claim RP as being the English all others are derived from.

I get tired of Brits telling me I should teach RP every bit as much as Americans telling me their English is the best.

Teach what you know. The kids need to hear the differences in the English.

[Heng]

I doubt they'll ever do this because it makes sense, but if you go with the Singapore model, you don't need hordes of native speaking

(or even 'sort of speaking' Filipinos) English teachers. You just change parts of the curriculum of all subjects (not just language) to be taught only in English, or only in Mandarin, and to heck with the accents as far as those subjects are concerned. That way, when they get to English (or whatever) class with their native speaking teacher, it's more of a refining process instead of the endless (and hopeless in many instances) game it is at present.

The goal should be to enable people to be aircraft engineers who can reference Boeing manuals, or to further their education elsewhere (or at least be able to draw on non-Thai reference materials), but perhaps have no chance of winning any kind of toastmasters competition.

The power brokers in Singapore are not so different than the ones here in the LOS. Horrible accents in many cases, you'd hardly call them fluent speakers in most cases, but they know enough to wheel and deal and power a successful economy... which IMO should be the goal.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Heng