Hiring of foreign aviation experts to be speeded up

[arrowsdawdle]

"The Cabinet earlier approved the plan to quickly hire foreign inspectors due to a domestic shortage of aviation safety specialists.

The DCA said Thailand needed around 86 foreign inspectors to cover the inspection work."

This action was needed several months ago, why did the DCA wait until now, to start doing it ?

Because the FAA finally took the long-threatened action, which forced the DCA/Cabinet's hand, surely not ?

The downgrade might have been avoided, had there not been this ridiculous reluctance, to admit that there aren't enough Thais with the necessary qualifications and experience, so help from elsewhere is needed !

"This action was needed several months ago..................."

My guess is that the military convinced themselves that their RTAF people could do the job standing on their heads, after all, they are invincable!.......and therefore no need to hire expensive foreigners....

They apparently believe the propaganda they indoctrinate the kids with in schools. Supreme face is as supreme face does.

[arrowsdawdle]

So, which is the chicken and which is the egg, ministry of aviation or ministry of education?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

There is no time, they've <deleted> it up so badly all Thai airlines will now be banned not only from the US but also from Europe.

There won't be enough experts available to do this on short notice.

The whole thing is doomed to failure already. We're talking about how long the recovery time from the inevitible failure will be.

A well deserved kick in the ass for the airline industry.

I think what you say above here is likely true... A couple of points:

1. Whatever the government is planning to do NOW isn't going to change the EASA rating coming out in the middle of Dec.

2. Months ago, when the original bad rating came down, the government started talking about bringing in foreign aviation experts. And, as best as I can tell, they've done F all in that sector in the ensuing months until now. But now, they're talking about doing foreign hiring again. Talk talk talk...

3. This is the same place where, just a week or two ago, various government and THAI employee groups were lashing out at the current THAI CEO for having hired a farang airline industry turnaround expert at quite expensive prices to advise THAI on getting its act together.

4. The one thing that none of these news reports seem to mention, though they obliquely allude to it, is that the FAA and EASA downgrades are VERY different.

--If you get downgraded by the FAA, you can't launch any new or changed routes into the U.S. -- which is irrelevant right now because THAI no longer has any U.S. flights since dropping its Los Angeles service. But, even if they still had U.S. service, they'd still be able to continue operating that service in the wake of the FAA downgrade. Existing services can continue unaffected by the FAA downgrade.

--The EASA, on the other hand, from what I recall reading on their rules and policies, has the ability to actually BAN existing flights/services from carriers in a country that's not meeting their requirements. Thus, unlike the FAA, that COULD mean a ban on THAI's existing services to various European cities, which news reports lately say account for about one-third of the airline's revenues.

The FAA ruling, coming on the heels of the prior ICAO downgrade for Thailand, is significant because past FAA downgrades have often been followed by the EASA taking similar action. But in terms of actual impact on Thailand, the FAA ruling is more like a feather whereas the EASA following suit would be more like an ax.

[ParadiseLost]

As many have noted, there is a currently a shortage of (suitably) qualified people, worldwide. China has been expanding it's airlines for the past few years and has just ordered 100s more planes. Not likely there will be many Chinese looking to relocate as they are well looked after. Westerners are not likely to be attracted to low salaries and corrupt administration either.

Another sign that generations of refusing to learn English is hurting Thailand - even if they do find experts to sort out the current situation, they don't have Thai people who are capable of learning from them...

Time to sell the airline sector to the Chinese methinks. Then the ports, the railways, etc...

[Echo Tango]

Wow! The airlines will freak out when the farang-aviation-experts start grounding their airplanes! This is going to be entertaining to watch.

The Thai Government will most likely hire a company such as DynCorp Int. to do the inspecting. They can hire the experts quickly. Will Thailand spend the dollar$ that it will take to make this happen? We will see.

[ExpatOilWorker]

The Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) and other related agencies were ordered to outsource the work to experts since there are around 400 aircraft that need to be inspected.

400 aircraft.

Retrace the whole maintenance intervals?

Spare parts relative evidence?

Those specialists do not grow on trees.

That costs real money.

I know one guy that do consultant work with offshore helicopters and he is getting $2,000 per day, net. Still, the cost of safety is ALWAYS cheaper than an accident. Just ask BP.

[tigermonkey]

Where to source 80 airline inspectors.....probably India would have many....hopefully they'll be looking at westerners tho'.

You are quite correct about Indians. India has just been upgraded from Category 2 to Category 1. There should be some surplus of personnel available both within India and amongst those who were assisting in India.

It is important to realize in all of this that the language used in aviation is English, throughout the world. Little needs to be said about the standards of English in Thailand.

They say that they are going to hire 86 inspectors. By the way, they presently have 18, of dubious qualifications. There is no mention of the manuals and procedures that the inspectors will need to do their jobs. They are either totally out of date or do not exist in Thailand - they all need to be written and/or developed.

ICAO sent a large team pf experts to Thailand in the summer of 2015 to assist Thailand in developing manuals, procedures and traning. These were ,mostly Canadians and I believe there were 20 of them. This was done 'gratis' to Thailand under ICAO's program called " Nobody gets left behind". They left after one month, with nothing having been accomplished.

This is a much longer process than Thailand would want. They may be panicking now, but they don't realize that Category and red flag reviews are only done by FAA, ICAO and EASA every 3 to 10 years. When Thailand realizes this, they may decide to put off any improvements for a few years.

[tomacht8]

The Department of Civil Aviation (DCA) and other related agencies were ordered to outsource the work to experts since there are around 400 aircraft that need to be inspected.

400 aircraft.

Retrace the whole maintenance intervals?

Spare parts relative evidence?

Those specialists do not grow on trees.

That costs real money.

I know one guy that do consultant work with offshore helicopters and he is getting $2,000 per day, net. Still, the cost of safety is ALWAYS cheaper than an accident. Just ask BP.

If they have missed the dates for C and D checks for some aircraft that is very expensive. In a D Check the aircraft is completely disassembled, x-rayed all components and renewed all the components according to checklists.

One D Check for one aircraft requires approximately 50,000 technically sophisticated working hours.

Normally, the airlines plan these events for years in advance. Without these checks the approval of the aircraft goes out!

Without these checks an aircraft has only scrap value!

Further, when the detection of already exchanged components can not be provided (used parts or parts of uncertain origin), these components must be completely replaced, against original spare parts from the manufacturer.

If the documentation for 400 aircraft is incomplete, incorrect or faulty,

Good night then.

This could mean the end of an airline.

Edited December 5, 2015 by tomacht8

[Lupatria]

All very well.....but who will want to work here for the money they will be offering against what they are probably earning in a secure job already ?

Probably Bht 30 000 per month and pay for your own visa and work permit, they will be overrun with applicants.

I wonder if anyone already brought up the proposal to use the leftover slaves from the fishing industry...

[sawadee1947]

Bring 'em in, use 'em to the fullest and then kick 'em out, eh? No need to lose too much face!!

almost a year ago they refused to hire a former Air Asia manager....it must be very serious and urgent. I think they just lost the face already

[Don Mega]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists.

most of the contractors I work with are on a months notice, Thai would have to cover airplane tickets, accommodation, visas and work permits fees, also look at tax incentives to even get people interested.

400 contractors x 19000 baht per day for 6 months is around 1,400,000,000 baht not including expenses. Plus the agency will actually want around 100 euros per day per person so another 3800 baht per day per contractor is another 278,000,000 Baht in 6 months just for the agency, so a very expensive undertaking.

Why would they need 400 contractors ?

[SuwadeeS]

I really like that!!!!

Always, they make a big show with all there people in uniforms. Finally, it show a person in an impressive uniform does makes an professional or show knowlegde.

Thanks god. Our world has an other measure standard, we only the real knowledge counts.

I hope the charge them a lot of money, same as they rip us of with teir dual prices.

[AyG]

400 contractors x 19000 baht per day for 6 months is around 1,400,000,000 baht not including expenses.

You're assuming that they will be hiring occidental experts. Experts from, say, China or North Korea would be substantially cheaper.

[MaxLee]

Bring 'em in, use 'em to the fullest and then kick 'em out, eh? No need to lose too much face!!

almost a year ago they refused to hire a former Air Asia manager....it must be very serious and urgent. I think they just lost the face already

Insanity is doing the same thing all over again and hope for different results,...... in Thailand's terms it means,......... Face-sanity, the stubborn act of trying to save face, no matter how many times you lost it............................

[jaywalker]

All very well.....but who will want to work here for the money they will be offering against what they are probably earning in a secure job already ?

There are contractors in most sections of work be it aviation, mobile phone systems (I was a contractor in that game for 12 years) and almost any jobs you can think off.

What happens is that the end customer puts out a request for manpower for a specific task and a specific period They detail what they want, for how long and at what rates. Interested agencies will get in touch with contractors through their database to find who is qualified, who is available and who is interested.

The CVs of those who are looking for the job will be culled and sent to the customer who then prepares a short list of who they think are suitable. They go back to agencies to arrange interviews and the candidates are chosen, After that the contracts are signed and the jobs are started.

Contractors generally know how long, how much and where before they sign. They don't have to take the job if they don't want to. I turned down a job in Iraq a few years ago because I couldn't agree with the agency on the rate even though it was in USD, tax free and everything paid for.

So who is going to translate to the Thais for them and to them for the Thais.

I am damn sure that the reason a problem exists at all is twofold.

One, the Thais cannot understand what is being said to them and, two, they don't want to understand what is being said to them.

Do not forget what they really think of us on an individual basis.

Quite true. All the TM's (Technical Manuals) are in English or French (Boeing or Airbus).

I would imagine the Airbus TM's have been translated to English. Thai's will NOT use them.

[jaywalker]

I want one of those jobs. I don't have any training or experience, but what training do you need to talk until your blue in the face while being ignored by the locals?

I almost said the same thing, but I have been there & done that in an industry where I DID have experience & cared about the quality & efficiency of my work.

It was quite maddening.

[ParadiseLost]

So hanging more amulets in the cockpit was not accepted by the FAA?

[jaywalker]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

It's infinitely easier to prevent a boat from leaving the pier than it is to pass international air safety regulations.

That is why the fishing industry clean-up is (seems to be) working somewhat. All it costs is paying a few cops extra to actually do their jobs.

Keeping those pesky airplanes in order costs BIG money = the dragging of feet.

[Artisi]

All very well.....but who will want to work here for the money they will be offering against what they are probably earning in a secure job already ?

Probably Bht 30 000 per month and pay for your own visa and work permit, they will be overrun with applicants.

If it is much less than 75,000 baht a month with visa, work permit, flights and accommodation they will probably get somebody to do the job but the won't get anybody worthwhile. Have you any idea of the training and experience required let alone of licence qualifications and they don't come cheap and HAVE to be kept current.

75,000 baht is only just over USD$2,000 a month and most top class people which is what they need would start around $5,000 a month all found.

Good high quality people don't come cheap.

When I was contracting in the mobile phone business a few years ago I was on USD$ 50 per hour all found and may average working day was 10 hours, 6 or 7 days a week.

I was being facetious

[billd766]

the average rate for Telecoms Site Mangers in Munich is between 450 and 550 Euros per day, which is about 17000 to 21000 baht per day, I do not think the Thais would be willing to pay that much for Airplane specialists

You're right, it's going to cost a whole lot more than that.

They will have to pay it.

If they can't, don't or won't pat the proper going rates then they won't get quality people and that WILL cost them a whole lot more in the future. They will be banned from the USA, possibly from the EU and the UK, maybe from Asia Pacific too.

Once you lose your reputation and passengers start to use other airlines you won't get them back very easily.

If you ban international airlines from Thailand then you will lose all the forex that tourists bring in (and how much is that worth) and the country will go bust quickly.

[billd766]

All very well.....but who will want to work here for the money they will be offering against what they are probably earning in a secure job already ?

Probably Bht 30 000 per month and pay for your own visa and work permit, they will be overrun with applicants.

If it is much less than 75,000 baht a month with visa, work permit, flights and accommodation they will probably get somebody to do the job but the won't get anybody worthwhile. Have you any idea of the training and experience required let alone of licence qualifications and they don't come cheap and HAVE to be kept current.

75,000 baht is only just over USD$2,000 a month and most top class people which is what they need would start around $5,000 a month all found.

Good high quality people don't come cheap.

When I was contracting in the mobile phone business a few years ago I was on USD$ 50 per hour all found and may average working day was 10 hours, 6 or 7 days a week.

I never accept less than $600 a day which I consider to be cheap

I was talking about from 1999 to 2009 rates. I have no idea what the current rates are.

[billd766]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

The problems didn't just appear a few months ago unfortunately. They have been building up for years and all the previous governments just ignored it and swept it under the carpet.

This government was the unlucky one that caught it.

IMHO it really doesn't matter which government caught this problem (and for that matter the other problems you mention too) because I don't think a military, Thaksin, Democrat or coalition government will do any better or worse than the current lot.

[billd766]

All very well.....but who will want to work here for the money they will be offering against what they are probably earning in a secure job already ?

Probably Bht 30 000 per month and pay for your own visa and work permit, they will be overrun with applicants.

If it is much less than 75,000 baht a month with visa, work permit, flights and accommodation they will probably get somebody to do the job but the won't get anybody worthwhile. Have you any idea of the training and experience required let alone of licence qualifications and they don't come cheap and HAVE to be kept current.

75,000 baht is only just over USD$2,000 a month and most top class people which is what they need would start around $5,000 a month all found.

Good high quality people don't come cheap.

When I was contracting in the mobile phone business a few years ago I was on USD$ 50 per hour all found and may average working day was 10 hours, 6 or 7 days a week.

I was being facetious

Sorry. I was almost asleep when I wrote that and it went completely over my head. My bad.

[Ichabod]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

The problems didn't just appear a few months ago unfortunately. They have been building up for years and all the previous governments just ignored it and swept it under the carpet.

This government was the unlucky one that caught it.

IMHO it really doesn't matter which government caught this problem (and for that matter the other problems you mention too) because I don't think a military, Thaksin, Democrat or coalition government will do any better or worse than the current lot.

Not true. The junta was served notice by the ICOA on March 20, 2015 of the impending risk of downgrading. Since that time the generals have done nothing to address the problem thereby endangering the tourism sector of the economy which is variously estimated to be between 6% and 10% of Thai GDP. They certainly could have hired their foreign experts in six months time if they had started then.

Sheer incompetence of the generals.

[billd766]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

The problems didn't just appear a few months ago unfortunately. They have been building up for years and all the previous governments just ignored it and swept it under the carpet.

This government was the unlucky one that caught it.

IMHO it really doesn't matter which government caught this problem (and for that matter the other problems you mention too) because I don't think a military, Thaksin, Democrat or coalition government will do any better or worse than the current lot.

Not true. The junta was served notice by the ICOA on March 20, 2015 of the impending risk of downgrading. Since that time the generals have done nothing to address the problem thereby endangering the tourism sector of the economy which is variously estimated to be between 6% and 10% of Thai GDP. They certainly could have hired their foreign experts in six months time if they had started then.

Sheer incompetence of the generals.

Yet if previous governments had done their job properly then Thailand wouldn't even BE in this position.

Gross incompetence of previous governments.

[Artisi]

Probably Bht 30 000 per month and pay for your own visa and work permit, they will be overrun with applicants.

If it is much less than 75,000 baht a month with visa, work permit, flights and accommodation they will probably get somebody to do the job but the won't get anybody worthwhile. Have you any idea of the training and experience required let alone of licence qualifications and they don't come cheap and HAVE to be kept current.

75,000 baht is only just over USD$2,000 a month and most top class people which is what they need would start around $5,000 a month all found.

Good high quality people don't come cheap.

When I was contracting in the mobile phone business a few years ago I was on USD$ 50 per hour all found and may average working day was 10 hours, 6 or 7 days a week.

I was being facetious

Sorry. I was almost asleep when I wrote that and it went completely over my head. My bad.

[HenryB]

All very well.....but who will want to work here for the money they will be offering against what they are probably earning in a secure job already ?

Probably Bht 30 000 per month and pay for your own visa and work permit, they will be overrun with applicants.

If it is much less than 75,000 baht a month with visa, work permit, flights and accommodation they will probably get somebody to do the job but the won't get anybody worthwhile. Have you any idea of the training and experience required let alone of licence qualifications and they don't come cheap and HAVE to be kept current.

75,000 baht is only just over USD$2,000 a month and most top class people which is what they need would start around $5,000 a month all found.

Good high quality people don't come cheap.

When I was contracting in the mobile phone business a few years ago I was on USD$ 50 per hour all found and may average working day was 10 hours, 6 or 7 days a week.

foreign aviation experts will not work for less than 200,000 plus expenses

Stop dreaming

[lovelomsak]

If Thai aviation personnel are like Thais in other areas were foreigners are employed,nothing will change.

Thais will listen, smile, nod their heads then do exactly as they please ignoring everything taught them. So the quality of foreigners is not even an issue. When the foreigners leave it will be business as usual.

[taony]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

The problems didn't just appear a few months ago unfortunately. They have been building up for years and all the previous governments just ignored it and swept it under the carpet.

This government was the unlucky one that caught it.

IMHO it really doesn't matter which government caught this problem (and for that matter the other problems you mention too) because I don't think a military, Thaksin, Democrat or coalition government will do any better or worse than the current lot.

Not true. The junta was served notice by the ICOA on March 20, 2015 of the impending risk of downgrading. Since that time the generals have done nothing to address the problem thereby endangering the tourism sector of the economy which is variously estimated to be between 6% and 10% of Thai GDP. They certainly could have hired their foreign experts in six months time if they had started then.

Sheer incompetence of the generals.

Yet if previous governments had done their job properly then Thailand wouldn't even BE in this position.

Gross incompetence of previous governments.

If the current government had lifted a finger or even just pretended to start addressing the problems, they wouldn't be in this situation right now. They would have been given time to make changes while avoiding the downgrade.

[jaywalker]

Why wasn't this hiring of people to do a proper job set in motion when the problem first reared its head months ago? Because the Thais thought they could fudge it.

Next up - the Thai fishing industry; with allegations of forced labour, slavery, trafficking and illegal and over-fishing, that should provide another ready example of why aspirations so often fall short of reality here.

It is a pity that, more often than not, the common people pay the price while the unmentionable organisations clean up.

The problems didn't just appear a few months ago unfortunately. They have been building up for years and all the previous governments just ignored it and swept it under the carpet.

This government was the unlucky one that caught it.

IMHO it really doesn't matter which government caught this problem (and for that matter the other problems you mention too) because I don't think a military, Thaksin, Democrat or coalition government will do any better or worse than the current lot.

Civilian administration of an airline usually works best, but the cronyism is just too entrenched at this point.

The brown envelopes flow & have been flowing for too long.