US $1.83 billion arms sales for Taiwan draws China's ire

[tonbridgebrit]

By the way, as for myself, do I wish to see China and Taiwan reducing their ecomonic links ? No, I don't. I would much rather see increased links. How about 37% of Taiwan's exports go to China ? And Taiwan eventually imports more from China than it does from Japan and America combined. Yes, a good step, a very good step !

Sorry, should try and stay on topic. Okay, America exports 1.83 billion dollars of military hard-ware. Yes, America can now import a mountain of manufactured goods from China.

50,000 Chinese are in China, producing goods for export to the USA, goods that are useful to America. And 5,000 Americans are producing military hard-ware, for export to Taiwan. Yes, America can pay for it's imports.

Get real, this is what it's mainly about as far as America is concerned.

[Scott]

A post with a racial slur has been removed. Please feel free to repost without the slur.

[Publicus]

@ you-know-who....tonbridgebrit

if their is a war between China and Taiwan, most people in Europe and America won't really care. Just let them fight, our own boys shouldn't be dying from other peoples' wars. That's how most people feel.

That is indeed how the vast majority of people think and feel which everyone knows. Kindly do try to avoid stating the obvious -- and as a presumptuous lecture especially. You may have read my postings to you about military deterrence of the CCP by Taiwan. That is, making a PLA-led cross-Strait amphibious assault too costly for the CCP to seriously consider.

My suggestion of economic war by China against Taiwan was about "instead of an actual military invasion, how about an econmic war instead"

That's original. Why don't you email Xi Jinping. Either that or give up the ghost that economic and financial interactions are irreversably too strong between CCP Dictators in Beijing and the Taiwan political economy. Trade, investment, travel, are not overbearing or determining, nor are they in jeopardy. Neither side wants to disrupt the economic and financial status quo. CCP certainly is not talking about or suggesting an economic war.

Ms Tsai might want to see less economic links with mainland-China. Yes, Ms Tsai might see her goal achieved.

Find out about the campaign in Taiwan for the election on January 16 so that you might learn the program of Ms. Tsai and the Democratic Progressive Party that she leads. The other two parties as well and the background of the past eight years going in to this election. Economic growth on Taiwan is slow and sluggish. It is too low for the vast majority of people to accept. So what has been so great about the 19 agreements Pres. Ma and the CCP have signed.

The ties with the CCP mainland have benefits to both sides of the Strait. Taiwan is however maxed out on CCP state owned corporations and Communist Party Cadre on Taiwan. Tsai Ing-wen and the DPP are offering a new economic strategy predicated on free market driven growth and development. PM Modi is doing the same in India which has growth approaching 7%.

Tsai Ing-wen and her DPP are 30 points ahead of the closest rival so you might get some points from research into the issues, the differences between the three major parties and their constituents, the nature of the polity and of the socio-cultural dynamics that are predominant on the island. Doing some research about Taiwan itself might also contribute to a reduction of wild statements pulled out of the blue. It might also constrain the over dependency on macro trade data that seems to be all consuming of the mind here. In short, try to become more than one dimensional.

okay, go and annoy Beijing. Beijing will reduce trade with Taiwan, reduce the number of tourists and tourist revenue,

Fanboyz just cannot stop speaking things their CCP in Beijing haven't ever said. Kindly stop and get a grip on reality. CCP are not saying any such things, nor are they implying them. If that might occur, present them then. Until something is said or done by CCP, the CCP Fanboyz might want to cool down on the rhetoric.

It's YOU, Publicus,

Edited December 28, 2015 by Publicus

[tonbridgebrit]

@ you-know-who....tonbridgebrit

if their is a war between China and Taiwan, most people in Europe and America won't really care. Just let them fight, our own boys shouldn't be dying from other peoples' wars. That's how most people feel.

That is indeed how the vast majority of people think and feel which everyone knows. Kindly do try to avoid stating the obvious -- and as a presumptuous lecture especially. You may have read my postings to you about military deterrence of the CCP by Taiwan. That is, making a PLA-led cross-Strait amphibious assault too costly for the CCP to seriously consider.

My suggestion of economic war by China against Taiwan was about "instead of an actual military invasion, how about an econmic war instead"

That's original. Why don't you email Xi Jinping. Either that or give up the ghost that economic and financial interactions are irreversably too strong between CCP Dictators in Beijing and the Taiwan political economy. Trade, investment, travel, are not overbearing or determining, nor are they in jeopardy. Neither side wants to disrupt the economic and financial status quo. CCP certainly is not talking about or suggesting an economic war.

Ms Tsai might want to see less economic links with mainland-China. Yes, Ms Tsai might see her goal achieved.

Find out about the campaign in Taiwan for the election on January 16 so that you might learn the program of Ms. Tsai and the Democratic Progressive Party that she leads. The other two parties as well and the background of the past eight years going in to this election. Economic growth on Taiwan is slow and sluggish. It is too low for the vast majority of people to accept. So what has been so great about the 19 agreements Pres. Ma and the CCP have signed.

The ties with the CCP mainland have benefits to both sides of the Strait. Taiwan is however maxed out on CCP state owned corporations and Communist Party Cadre on Taiwan. Tsai Ing-wen and the DPP are offering a new economic strategy predicated on free market driven growth and development. PM Modi is doing the same in India which has growth approaching 7%.

Tsai Ing-wen and her DPP are 30 points ahead of the closest rival so you might get some points from research into the issues, the differences between the three major parties and their constituents, the nature of the polity and of the socio-cultural dynamics that are predominant on the island. Doing some research about Taiwan itself might also contribute to a reduction of wild statements pulled out of the blue. It might also constrain the over dependency on macro trade data that seems to be all consuming of the mind here. In short, try to become more than one dimensional.

okay, go and annoy Beijing. Beijing will reduce trade with Taiwan, reduce the number of tourists and tourist revenue,

Fanboyz just cannot stop speaking things their CCP in Beijing haven't ever said. Kindly stop and get a grip on reality. CCP are not saying any such things, nor are they implying them. If that might occur, present them then. Until something is said or done by CCP, the CCP Fanboyz might want to cool down on the rhetoric.

It's YOU, Publicus,

Publicus, we're agreeing on "most people in the US and EU simply don't want to get involved in any war beween China and Taiwan, they feel that a bunch of Chinese fighting another bunch of Chinese is somehing that our boys must not get involved in, people don't want our boys getting killed fighting somebody else's war".

I'ill say the following again. Taiwan declaring independance might mean that Beijing will invade Taiwan. We all know that. And IF Taiwan's future involves an invasion from mainland China, well, it would be far better if the invasion does NOT take place, and that economic war takes place instead. Do you reckon that an invasion and economic war are both just the same, in terms of how bad it is ?

I mean, IF an invasion does take place, would you rather have people like me cheering on the invasion, or would you rather have people trying to talk about abandoning the invasion, and have economic war instead ? Would you prefer a load of people encouraging America to declare war on China ?

No, I am not trying to actually encourage economic war ! Okay, 27% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China. I'm saying that whatever policies Taiwan carries out, I don't think it's good if it results in a drop in Taiwan's exports to mainland China. Do you agree with me ? I'd much rather have the removal or reduction of existing barriers, or any barriers, and see that % go up to 35% over the next few years. Yes, I think Taiwan exporting more and more to mainland China is a good thing, do you reckon the same thing ?

And the same regarding Taiwan's imports from China. Japan accounts for 17% of Taiwan's imports, mainland China accounts for 16%. Any policies that reduce imports from China are not actually good, policies that boost imports ARE good. So, if China accounts for 21% in a few years time, over-taking Japan as Taiwan's biggest source of imports, well, there's no problem with that at all. Do you agree ?

Publicus, you have not commented about Taiwan's campaign (which has gone on for decades) to get small nations to accept Taiwan, by giving them aid and loans. Is this because you yourself do actually reckon it is laughable ?

You are being a Washington cheerleader when it comes to Taiwan, but you dis-like Washington for doing the following : carrying out a coup to remove an almost democratically elected government in Iran and installing the puppet Shah back in 1950, having a puppet government in Saudi Arabia bearing in mind that the puppet government does not dish out freedom of speech and a whole load of other freedoms, invading Iraq when oil and killing Muslims as part of a crusade were just as important as removing a threat to America (Saddam Hussein), continueing with the War on Terror because it's the same crusade to kill Muslims.

Yet, when it comes to Taiwan and China, you are a cheerleader for Washington, painting a picture where Beijing is dangerous. Why the inconsistency ?

[Publicus]

@ you-know-who....tonbridgebrit

if their is a war between China and Taiwan, most people in Europe and America won't really care. Just let them fight, our own boys shouldn't be dying from other peoples' wars. That's how most people feel.

That is indeed how the vast majority of people think and feel which everyone knows. Kindly do try to avoid stating the obvious -- and as a presumptuous lecture especially. You may have read my postings to you about military deterrence of the CCP by Taiwan. That is, making a PLA-led cross-Strait amphibious assault too costly for the CCP to seriously consider.

My suggestion of economic war by China against Taiwan was about "instead of an actual military invasion, how about an econmic war instead"

That's original. Why don't you email Xi Jinping. Either that or give up the ghost that economic and financial interactions are irreversably too strong between CCP Dictators in Beijing and the Taiwan political economy. Trade, investment, travel, are not overbearing or determining, nor are they in jeopardy. Neither side wants to disrupt the economic and financial status quo. CCP certainly is not talking about or suggesting an economic war.

Ms Tsai might want to see less economic links with mainland-China. Yes, Ms Tsai might see her goal achieved.

Find out about the campaign in Taiwan for the election on January 16 so that you might learn the program of Ms. Tsai and the Democratic Progressive Party that she leads. The other two parties as well and the background of the past eight years going in to this election. Economic growth on Taiwan is slow and sluggish. It is too low for the vast majority of people to accept. So what has been so great about the 19 agreements Pres. Ma and the CCP have signed.

The ties with the CCP mainland have benefits to both sides of the Strait. Taiwan is however maxed out on CCP state owned corporations and Communist Party Cadre on Taiwan. Tsai Ing-wen and the DPP are offering a new economic strategy predicated on free market driven growth and development. PM Modi is doing the same in India which has growth approaching 7%.

Tsai Ing-wen and her DPP are 30 points ahead of the closest rival so you might get some points from research into the issues, the differences between the three major parties and their constituents, the nature of the polity and of the socio-cultural dynamics that are predominant on the island. Doing some research about Taiwan itself might also contribute to a reduction of wild statements pulled out of the blue. It might also constrain the over dependency on macro trade data that seems to be all consuming of the mind here. In short, try to become more than one dimensional.

okay, go and annoy Beijing. Beijing will reduce trade with Taiwan, reduce the number of tourists and tourist revenue,

Fanboyz just cannot stop speaking things their CCP in Beijing haven't ever said. Kindly stop and get a grip on reality. CCP are not saying any such things, nor are they implying them. If that might occur, present them then. Until something is said or done by CCP, the CCP Fanboyz might want to cool down on the rhetoric.

It's YOU, Publicus,

Publicus, we're agreeing on "most people in the US and EU simply don't want to get involved in any war beween China and Taiwan, they feel that a bunch of Chinese fighting another bunch of Chinese is somehing that our boys must not get involved in, people don't want our boys getting killed fighting somebody else's war".

I'ill say the following again. Taiwan declaring independance might mean that Beijing will invade Taiwan. We all know that. And IF Taiwan's future involves an invasion from mainland China, well, it would be far better if the invasion does NOT take place, and that economic war takes place instead. Do you reckon that an invasion and economic war are both just the same, in terms of how bad it is ?

I mean, IF an invasion does take place, would you rather have people like me cheering on the invasion, or would you rather have people trying to talk about abandoning the invasion, and have economic war instead ? Would you prefer a load of people encouraging America to declare war on China ?

No, I am not trying to actually encourage economic war ! Okay, 27% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China. I'm saying that whatever policies Taiwan carries out, I don't think it's good if it results in a drop in Taiwan's exports to mainland China. Do you agree with me ? I'd much rather have the removal or reduction of existing barriers, or any barriers, and see that % go up to 35% over the next few years. Yes, I think Taiwan exporting more and more to mainland China is a good thing, do you reckon the same thing ?

And the same regarding Taiwan's imports from China. Japan accounts for 17% of Taiwan's imports, mainland China accounts for 16%. Any policies that reduce imports from China are not actually good, policies that boost imports ARE good. So, if China accounts for 21% in a few years time, over-taking Japan as Taiwan's biggest source of imports, well, there's no problem with that at all. Do you agree ?

Publicus, you have not commented about Taiwan's campaign (which has gone on for decades) to get small nations to accept Taiwan, by giving them aid and loans. Is this because you yourself do actually reckon it is laughable ?

You are being a Washington cheerleader when it comes to Taiwan, but you dis-like Washington for doing the following : carrying out a coup to remove an almost democratically elected government in Iran and installing the puppet Shah back in 1950, having a puppet government in Saudi Arabia bearing in mind that the puppet government does not dish out freedom of speech and a whole load of other freedoms, invading Iraq when oil and killing Muslims as part of a crusade were just as important as removing a threat to America (Saddam Hussein), continueing with the War on Terror because it's the same crusade to kill Muslims.

Yet, when it comes to Taiwan and China, you are a cheerleader for Washington, painting a picture where Beijing is dangerous. Why the inconsistency ?

Cease misrepresenting my views or in presuming to know my views over decades of time. Doing so is reckless and irresponsible; out of bounds. Yet it is done thoughtlessly in post after post. I haven't said anything for instance about a coup in Iran 1950.

So now comes more of Johnny One Note blaring on his horn as he crosses his falling bridge.....

Okay, 27% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China. I'm saying that whatever policies Taiwan carries out, I don't think it's good if it results in a drop in Taiwan's exports to mainland China. Do you agree with me ?

This continued activity inside your head reveals you resistantly have not accepted my invitation to look at the election campaign currently underway in Taiwan. In other words, get outside of your own head. Doing so might reduce the constant flow of drivel streaming out of it.

There are three political parties contesting in the January 16 election. You need to examine the statements and platforms of each party. There is a new economic strategy proposed by the DPP which is at 50% in the polling (among the three parties) and has a 30-point lead on the number two incumbent KMT.

The DPP new economic strategy led by Tsai Ing-wen focuses on increased privatisation, a more free market economy, stopping CCP state owned corporate intrusion into the economy and financial system; higher wages toward income equity, restructuring the economy and financial system to be more efficient, proficient, effective. There's a lot more in the popular DPP economic program to improve the declining economic circumstances of middle class of Taiwanese. Almost all Taiwanese (not Chinese) have lost serious economic ground during the eight years of the present, pro-Beijing KMT government of Prez Ma Ying-jeou who has signed 19 significant agreements with Beijing.

Publicus, you have not commented about Taiwan's campaign (which has gone on for decades) to get small nations to accept Taiwan, by giving them aid and loans. Is this because you yourself do actually reckon it is laughable ?

What's laughable is that CCP spends hundreds of billions in usd value to buy governments, foreign energy and mining corporations, political leaders and parties in Africa especially, but throughout the world; wherever it can find politicians and corporate executives with their hands out. Or to create or encourage such leaders.

Robert Mugabe just last week had a $40 million no-interest "loan" from Beijing cancelled after announcing Zimbabwe would accept the yuan into its hopeless eight-currency basket. There are no yuan in circulation in Zimbabwe nor will any be put in circulation. The "loan" and its "forgiveness" is CCP foreign policy illusion rather than economics or finance.

So yet once again, Johnny One Note criticises Taiwan while offering no critcism of the CCP. Little Johnny in fact makes up and compulsively misspeaks threats against Taiwan the CCP itself does not make, has not made, is highly unlikely to ever make.

Little Johnny One Note always indicates Taiwan is wrong and the CCP Dictators in Beijing are not only right, that they are somehow all powerful and ready to pounce on Taiwan. The one dimensional pro-Beijing poster needs to get out of his own head in to the real world.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

What's laughable is that CCP spends hundreds of billions in usd value to buy governments, foreign energy and mining corporations, political leaders and parties in Africa especially, but throughout the world; wherever it can find politicians and corporate executives with their hands out. Or to create or encourage such leaders.

Robert Mugabe just last week had a $40 million no-interest "loan" from Beijing cancelled after announcing Zimbabwe would accept the yuan into its hopeless eight-currency basket. There are no yuan in circulation in Zimbabwe nor will any be put in circulation. The "loan" and its "forgiveness" is CCP foreign policy illusion rather than economics or finance.

Strange ....so you are saying the USA and the French and Japanese are laughable as well as they recently forgave billions in loans owed by Myanmar ?

I know it's upsetting the Chinese are emulating foreign aid policies like the west , they do it minus the conditions pre-attached to many past interactions by the west

The only thing I hope they don't try to emulate is trigger happy fingers like USA as that could really escalate the current Taiwanese straits ties rather than defuse it and over time let it normalise

Leaders on both sides have been doing so over years talking and trying to defuse the differences ...To have economic ties reduced with China right next to your doorstep takes a lot of political guts and also a lot of folly if they think the west can mop up the difference

Ask HK and Macau , both models of what trade balance with China can bring about stability to their economies etc integration of populations and the Chinese will take another 2-3 generations

I am hopeful every time I interact with the youth of tier cities ...they are young enterprising and extremely moderate in views

Be interesting to see how their kids interact with kid of HK and Taiwan in the next 40-50 years down the road

HK is largely myopic in its hatred for the mainlanders but like Singapore will lose their superiority sense when they realised over time they can't speak mandarin well , their years with the Brits have not really increased their English ability and the Chinese are getting more cosmopolitan by the day

I was recently in Chengdu and it's interesting when you visit the Silicon Valley firms there on the Chinese you interact with at the tea houses ...you almost feel like you are walking in Seattle

They are well traveled , balanced in worldly views , distinctly Chinese and foreign educated. They are seeking a balance in life and I am heartened when I interact with them as there is hope for China to develop further in services sector and reduce the pollution indexes through cheap manufacturing

Edited December 29, 2015 by LawrenceChee

[Publicus]

<snip>

Strange ....so you are saying the USA and the French and Japanese are laughable as well as they recently forgave billions in loans owed by Myanmar ?

I know it's upsetting the Chinese are emulating foreign aid policies like the west , they do it minus the conditions pre-attached to many past interactions by the west

The only thing I hope they don't try to emulate is trigger happy fingers like USA as that could really escalate the current Taiwanese straits ties rather than defuse it and over time let it normalise

Leaders on both sides have been doing so over years talking and trying to defuse the differences ...To have economic ties reduced with China right next to your doorstep takes a lot of political guts and also a lot of folly if they think the west can mop up the difference

Ask HK and Macau , both models of what trade balance with China can bring about stability to their economies etc integration of populations and the Chinese will take another 2-3 generations

I am hopeful every time I interact with the youth of tier cities ...they are young enterprising and extremely moderate in views

Be interesting to see how their kids interact with kid of HK and Taiwan in the next 40-50 years down the road

HK is largely myopic in its hatred for the mainlanders but like Singapore will lose their superiority sense when they realised over time they can't speak mandarin well , their years with the Brits have not really increased their English ability and the Chinese are getting more cosmopolitan by the day

I was recently in Chengdu and it's interesting when you visit the Silicon Valley firms there on the Chinese you interact with at the tea houses ...you almost feel like you are walking in Seattle

They are well traveled , balanced in worldly views , distinctly Chinese and foreign educated. They are seeking a balance in life and I am heartened when I interact with them as there is hope for China to develop further in services sector and reduce the pollution indexes through cheap manufacturing

Au contraire, nothing strange about a country's government providing some foreign aid in its own interests, selectively and with priorities. It's done all the time. The two principal countries being discussed here are the CCP owned and operated People's Republic of China and Taiwan, aka, the Republic of China (Taiwan). The other poster also supports CCP; I support Taiwan. Taiwan the presently existing country.

People who are losing the argument have a strong tendency to refer to some point in the distant future....say 20 years on; or "40 or 50 years down the road." So we must wait until then to see and find out in the present how right they are. Absurd.

Trying to point away a long distance over a long period of time is a lunge to try to compensate for being behind the eightball of the present. The way societies and material conditions of just the past 50 years have changed so rapidly, trying to think five years ahead is a big task. Projecting 40 years ahead and out is a 'hail mary' pass indeed. Desperation rather than argument. An attempt to dismiss. Usually highhanded.

A great number of people in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and in the many other places that have democracy and market economics, in whatever local brand of either or both, are sophisticated indeed. There's no question of it. Which is why they reject the crude, ancient and destructive dictatorship of the revanchist and irredentist, self-serving and corrupt CCP.

Taiwan gets US military aid and other forms of support. Singapore is a non-treaty ally of the United States, a status that often goes unnoticed due to its small city-state nature. Singapore has over decades built harbor channels and new piers for US Navy aircraft carriers and last month welcomed a new USN Poseidon 8A recon plane to its new home base there, to operate over the SCS, Strait of Malacca, Strait of Taiwan, the Indian Ocean.

The Sunflower Revolution of Taiwan and the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong are where the action is, not with the faltering and flailing CCP.

[tonbridgebrit]

Publicus, we're agreeing on "most people in the US and EU simply don't want to get involved in any war beween China and Taiwan, they feel that a bunch of Chinese fighting another bunch of Chinese is somehing that our boys must not get involved in, people don't want our boys getting killed fighting somebody else's war".

I'ill say the following again. Taiwan declaring independance might mean that Beijing will invade Taiwan. We all know that. And IF Taiwan's future involves an invasion from mainland China, well, it would be far better if the invasion does NOT take place, and that economic war takes place instead. Do you reckon that an invasion and economic war are both just the same, in terms of how bad it is ?

I mean, IF an invasion does take place, would you rather have people like me cheering on the invasion, or would you rather have people trying to talk about abandoning the invasion, and have economic war instead ? Would you prefer a load of people encouraging America to declare war on China ?

No, I am not trying to actually encourage economic war ! Okay, 27% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China. I'm saying that whatever policies Taiwan carries out, I don't think it's good if it results in a drop in Taiwan's exports to mainland China. Do you agree with me ? I'd much rather have the removal or reduction of existing barriers, or any barriers, and see that % go up to 35% over the next few years. Yes, I think Taiwan exporting more and more to mainland China is a good thing, do you reckon the same thing ?

And the same regarding Taiwan's imports from China. Japan accounts for 17% of Taiwan's imports, mainland China accounts for 16%. Any policies that reduce imports from China are not actually good, policies that boost imports ARE good. So, if China accounts for 21% in a few years time, over-taking Japan as Taiwan's biggest source of imports, well, there's no problem with that at all. Do you agree ?

Publicus, you have not commented about Taiwan's campaign (which has gone on for decades) to get small nations to accept Taiwan, by giving them aid and loans. Is this because you yourself do actually reckon it is laughable ?

You are being a Washington cheerleader when it comes to Taiwan, but you dis-like Washington for doing the following : carrying out a coup to remove an almost democratically elected government in Iran and installing the puppet Shah back in 1950, having a puppet government in Saudi Arabia bearing in mind that the puppet government does not dish out freedom of speech and a whole load of other freedoms, invading Iraq when oil and killing Muslims as part of a crusade were just as important as removing a threat to America (Saddam Hussein), continueing with the War on Terror because it's the same crusade to kill Muslims.

Yet, when it comes to Taiwan and China, you are a cheerleader for Washington, painting a picture where Beijing is dangerous. Why the inconsistency ?

Cease misrepresenting my views or in presuming to know my views over decades of time. Doing so is reckless and irresponsible; out of bounds. Yet it is done thoughtlessly in post after post. I haven't said anything for instance about a coup in Iran 1950.

So now comes more of Johnny One Note blaring on his horn as he crosses his falling bridge.....

Okay, 27% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China. I'm saying that whatever policies Taiwan carries out, I don't think it's good if it results in a drop in Taiwan's exports to mainland China. Do you agree with me ?

This continued activity inside your head reveals you resistantly have not accepted my invitation to look at the election campaign currently underway in Taiwan. In other words, get outside of your own head. Doing so might reduce the constant flow of drivel streaming out of it.

There are three political parties contesting in the January 16 election. You need to examine the statements and platforms of each party. There is a new economic strategy proposed by the DPP which is at 50% in the polling (among the three parties) and has a 30-point lead on the number two incumbent KMT.

The DPP new economic strategy led by Tsai Ing-wen focuses on increased privatisation, a more free market economy, stopping CCP state owned corporate intrusion into the economy and financial system; higher wages toward income equity, restructuring the economy and financial system to be more efficient, proficient, effective. There's a lot more in the popular DPP economic program to improve the declining economic circumstances of middle class of Taiwanese. Almost all Taiwanese (not Chinese) have lost serious economic ground during the eight years of the present, pro-Beijing KMT government of Prez Ma Ying-jeou who has signed 19 significant agreements with Beijing.

Publicus, you have not commented about Taiwan's campaign (which has gone on for decades) to get small nations to accept Taiwan, by giving them aid and loans. Is this because you yourself do actually reckon it is laughable ?

What's laughable is that CCP spends hundreds of billions in usd value to buy governments, foreign energy and mining corporations, political leaders and parties in Africa especially, but throughout the world; wherever it can find politicians and corporate executives with their hands out. Or to create or encourage such leaders.

Robert Mugabe just last week had a $40 million no-interest "loan" from Beijing cancelled after announcing Zimbabwe would accept the yuan into its hopeless eight-currency basket. There are no yuan in circulation in Zimbabwe nor will any be put in circulation. The "loan" and its "forgiveness" is CCP foreign policy illusion rather than economics or finance.

So yet once again, Johnny One Note criticises Taiwan while offering no critcism of the CCP. Little Johnny in fact makes up and compulsively misspeaks threats against Taiwan the CCP itself does not make, has not made, is highly unlikely to ever make.

Little Johnny One Note always indicates Taiwan is wrong and the CCP Dictators in Beijing are not only right, that they are somehow all powerful and ready to pounce on Taiwan. The one dimensional pro-Beijing poster needs to get out of his own head in to the real world.

Publicus, you wrote "Cease misrepresenting my views or in presuming to know my views over decades of time." Can YOU stop mis-representing my views regarding economic war between mainland China and Taiwan ? Again, my view is "we all agree that Taiwan's future might involve a military invasion from China, I'd much rather see economic war rather than an invasion from China". I cannot speak for Beijing, their attitude might be "war is war, we will launch a military invasion if they declare indepedance". And I say again, if Beijing launches an invasion, would you rather see me cheer on the invasion, rather than dis-courage it and use the option of economic war ? Please answer that.

"I haven't said anything for instance about a coup in Iran 1950."

Publicus, I'm asking you to criticise or condemn Washington because it did actually carry out a coup in Iran back in 1950, Washington removed a democratically elected government, and replaced it with a puppet (the Shah). I'm not anti-American, I can still say that, everybody knows that it did actually happen. 1950 is a long time ago, but Saudi Arabia is happening today. There's people on facebook who have noticed that Saudi Arabia has little freedom of speech, freedom of this and that, and yet, Washington still backs Saudi Arabia. I take it one step further by reckoning that the government there is a puppet government, controlled by Washington.

YOU, you are refusing to criticise Washington for this, even though you hate Washington for doing this, why ? Because the same Washington is backing Taiwan.

I'm giving you the opportunity to condemn or criticise Washington, you are refusing to. I do not criticise you for your refusal. Okay, go ahead and say that America's foreign policy is not actually based on spreading freedom and democracy. It's actually based on getting benefits and exploitation of other countries if you want to.

Actually, I make the assumption that you hate Washington when it has done all these not nice things, but maybe I am wrong. Maybe you don't. Is that the case ? Surely not ??

"you resistantly have not accepted my invitation to look at the election campaign currently underway in Taiwan."

Publicus, Taiwan is a small place, it's GDP is small, I have no links with Taiwan, it's small GDP has an almost negligible impact on the rest of the world. I don't think I'ill bother to look at the DPP's policies. I'ill just read whatever stuff you want to put up about it. You are, after all, a cheer-leader for the DPP and Washington, I assume your stuff about the DPP is correct information.

Whatever Ms Tsai's policies regarding Taiwan itself, fair enough. If they want to shift wealth away from Taiwan's richest people, and move it towards Taiwan's poorest, well, I have no problem with that, let them do it. Oh, the middle-class are not so well off ? Well, if that is so, and they want to carry out policies that will shift wealth to the middle-class, that's up to them. None of this really matters to the world outside of Taiwan.

The IMPORTANT thing is, is Taiwan going to do something that will cause Beijing to invade them ? And that is important, not because a load of Chinese killing another load of Chinese is important, it's important because the war will or might bring in the Americans. And bringing in the Americans to fight mainland China will start World War Three. That is what makes Taiwan 'interesting', it might start World War Three. I'm pretty sure Washington won't declare war on China if China launches an invasion of Taiwan, but you never know.

"What's laughable is that CCP spends hundreds of billions in usd value to buy governments, foreign energy and mining corporations, political leaders and parties in Africa especially, but throughout the world".

Publicus, trying to compare Taiwan's campaign and foreign policy with Beijing's is ridiculous, even for a DPP/Washington cheerleader like yourself !

Yes, go ahead and claim that Beijing offers benefits to bad dictators (especially in Africa) in order to take natural resources from those countries. We all know that. China benefits from doing this, that's why they're doing it. In Washington's case, it simply converts the Saudi Arabian government into a puppet, is that okay ?

As for Taiwan getting Nauru, Tuvalu, Kiribati, etc to have the words "Embassy of Republic of China (Taiwan)" written outside whatever Taiwan government building in those places, well, how does that benefit Taiwan ? Was it worth it, giving them that aid and loans ?

Bit like declaring independance, how does that benefit Taiwan ? Will 800+ missiles no longer be aimed at Taiwan if they declare independance ?

[Publicus]

This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture.

This poster has stated many times to this thread that the PLA does not have the capability to conduct a cross-strait large scale amphibious assault against Taiwan. PLA will not have any such capability until sometime after 2020.

In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan. Taiwan is anyway well prepared to defend itself against air and sea assault by the PLA. Its shores are rocks, mountains, caves, crevases and the like containing hidden or obscure anti-missile and anti-ship defensive installations.

China furthermore has not conducted a large scale amphibious assault in a hundred years of modern warfare, if ever.

Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time. Not for any reason, rationale, purpose or goal. Nothing can be ruled out but this is the status quo situation each side much prefers to maintain, if not develop.

Laurence you need to step forward here to try to set this guy straight. It is an immensily challenging task, yes. Humongously challenging and unrewarding, for sure. But I am unable to penetrate the the guy's thick walls.

Thanks in advance.

[LawrenceChee]

I haven't had much luck getting through you especially when you keep misspelling my name

Is good to have more logical views

China has zero intent to invade Taiwan ...the PR francas from the Tiananmen incident is lingering like a limp lizard

No Chinese president will go down as the man who initiated warfare against Taiwan which is why for now talks work and is the best option

Granted a bit hard for USA to understand as they mastered the rhetoric of shock and awe and have missiles rain down on the land and blitz it and have no further plans what to do next

They have mastered the art of bombing spectacularly for the media with no actual occupation success later

The Chinese have learnt well from those and will not be attacking Taiwan anytime soon ....

Probably in the next 4-5 generations when the great great great grandkids of this current generation grow up, they will bewildering what the fuss is about

The Chinese have an endearing quality ....they really can wait

[SheungWan]

I haven't had much luck getting through you especially when you keep misspelling my name

Is good to have more logical views

China has zero intent to invade Taiwan ...the PR francas from the Tiananmen incident is lingering like a limp lizard

No Chinese president will go down as the man who initiated warfare against Taiwan which is why for now talks work and is the best option

Granted a bit hard for USA to understand as they mastered the rhetoric of shock and awe and have missiles rain down on the land and blitz it and have no further plans what to do next

They have mastered the art of bombing spectacularly for the media with no actual occupation success later

The Chinese have learnt well from those and will not be attacking Taiwan anytime soon ....

Probably in the next 4-5 generations when the great great great grandkids of this current generation grow up, they will bewildering what the fuss is about

The Chinese have an endearing quality ....they really can wait

It is a primary objective of CCP fellow-travellers to substitute 'China' for that of the CCP. We end up with a silly statement that 'China has zero intent to Taiwan'. All those rockets pointing at Taiwan are for what purpose? And as for the 'peaceful' stab, that's purely for international PR consumption. Ask Vietnam. Vietnam saw the peaceful side of the Chinese CP in 1979 and had to beat them off. It is almost comical that someone should put so much effort into defending a Party whose main criticism of Russia is that it gave up the USSR without a fight in 1989. But there are always some. Smile on one side and snarl on the other. That's the style.

Edited December 29, 2015 by SheungWan

[LawrenceChee]

I haven't had much luck getting through you especially when you keep misspelling my name

Is good to have more logical views

China has zero intent to invade Taiwan ...the PR francas from the Tiananmen incident is lingering like a limp lizard

No Chinese president will go down as the man who initiated warfare against Taiwan which is why for now talks work and is the best option

Granted a bit hard for USA to understand as they mastered the rhetoric of shock and awe and have missiles rain down on the land and blitz it and have no further plans what to do next

They have mastered the art of bombing spectacularly for the media with no actual occupation success later

The Chinese have learnt well from those and will not be attacking Taiwan anytime soon ....

Probably in the next 4-5 generations when the great great great grandkids of this current generation grow up, they will bewildering what the fuss is about

The Chinese have an endearing quality ....they really can wait

It is a primary objective of CCP fellow-travellers to substitute 'China' for that of the CCP. We end up with a silly statement that 'China has zero intent to Taiwan'. All those rockets pointing at Taiwan are for what purpose? And as for the 'peaceful' stab, that's purely for international PR consumption. Ask Vietnam. Vietnam saw the peaceful side of the Chinese CP in 1979 and had to beat them off. It is almost comical that someone should put so much effort into defending a Party whose main criticism of Russia is that it gave up the USSR without a fight in 1989. But there are always some. Smile on one side and snarl on the other. That's the style.

Are you suggesting that if CCP remove all the missiles Taiwan will break away from the Defence pact and stop holding drills and buying military equipment and drop all military strategies

This is called political posturing and it seems that some cannot accept this without losing face ...lets not be naive here the Politicians have a gameshow to perform and they have to do what they have to do

Unlike the USA these missiles have largely been unfired and just pointing ....

Edited December 29, 2015 by LawrenceChee

[tonbridgebrit]

This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture.

This poster has stated many times to this thread that the PLA does not have the capability to conduct a cross-strait large scale amphibious assault against Taiwan. PLA will not have any such capability until sometime after 2020.

In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan. Taiwan is anyway well prepared to defend itself against air and sea assault by the PLA. Its shores are rocks, mountains, caves, crevases and the like containing hidden or obscure anti-missile and anti-ship defensive installations.

China furthermore has not conducted a large scale amphibious assault in a hundred years of modern warfare, if ever.

Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time. Not for any reason, rationale, purpose or goal. Nothing can be ruled out but this is the status quo situation each side much prefers to maintain, if not develop.

Laurence you need to step forward here to try to set this guy straight. It is an immensily challenging task, yes. Humongously challenging and unrewarding, for sure. But I am unable to penetrate the the guy's thick walls.

Thanks in advance.

"This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture."

Yes, we know that Washington is going to sell 1.83 billion dollars worth of military hardware to Taiwan, we know that.

"In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan."

Yes, we know that mainland China is going to attack and invade Taiwan if Taiwan declares independance. What we want to know is, IS AMERICA going to declare war on China, and hence, start World War Three, just because a bunch of Chinese in Taiwan want to declare independance. That's what we want to know.

"Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time."

Publicus, who on earth has claimed that Beijing has said that it is going to carry out an economic war on Taiwan ?? Please name them.

Publicus, those missiles that Beijing has got aimed at Taiwan. When/if Taiwan declares independance, and when/if Beijing fires those missiles, do you reckon that Beijing will cancel those orders for Taiwan's goods entering into mainland China ? Do you reckon Beijing will cancel those orders BEFORE, or DURING, or SOON AFTER launching those missile strikes and invasion ? Do you reckon that Beijing will carry on ordering goods from Taiwan even after launching the missiles and the invasion ? Please bear in mind that 27% of Taiwan's exports do actually go to mainland China. Do you reckon that Beijing's mass missiles strike and invasion will NOT effect Taiwan's exports to mainland China ?? And what about Taiwan's imports from mainland China ? Please note that 16% of Taiwan's imports are from mainland China. Do you reckon that Beijing will carry on delivering goods to Taiwan when it orders an invasion and mass missile strike ?

LawrenceChee, Lawrence, can you please try and get Publicus to answer the above questions. Thank you, Sir.

[Publicus]

The allied military strategy is to make a PLA amphibious invasion of Taiwan too costly to the CCP and its PLA to consider. Too costly in respect of life and other CCP national resources. Taiwan is armed, trained, at the ready, have no doubt of it.

As has been pointed out, the CCP Dictators in Beijing cannot sustain another Tiananmen Square of 1989 world reaction against their brutal and malevolent application of armed force. CCP war against Taiwan would be rejected in far worse terms than even Tiananmen has been condemned to the present and going forward indefinitely. This applies to any such CCP reaction to the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong.

Percent this and percent that are relevant but immaterial to overall cross-strait relations or interactions. Both Beijing and Taiwan want the status quo. The status quo across the board. Each side has been up front and exact about it. These are the present realities.

The fact remains however that the election January 16 will bury once and for all the "one country, two interpretations" agreement of way back when, in 1992. That will be a central expression of the people of Taiwan in their overall vote expected by everyone to return the Democratic Progressive Party to government.

Timing of the arms package by the White House is an expression of its view of the upcoming election. The announcement was hailed by the DPP but muted by the incumbent government the KMT.

Those who are unable to see, or who are unwilling to accept, independence and sovereignty for the people and country of Taiwan would also lack any ability to see the evil inherent in the CCP and in its doomed systems. People of Taiwan know what they want and why they want it. Even CCPs are beginning to recognise the realities as they have developed over the past 25 years.

[LawrenceChee]

Talks and talks will get you there ....the thread is about USA armed sales and how this is in bad taste to the diplomacy being played by both China and Taiwan

This year there was a historic meeting between the 2 presidents ...did USA broker the visit ?

Of course not because rhetoric threats of wars is what the USA is good for and the dumb mess they tend to leave behind

It's stupid politics as there is no threat to Taiwanese / Chines relationships to justify the sale or make it happen ....Would China spite the USA right now and authorise similar sales to Cuba ? Probably not as they realise the stupidity of it and how it looks

The USA should learn patience and talks but I understand in its short history talks have not been the Favourite medium of reconciliation

[Publicus]

Talks and talks will get you there ....the thread is about USA armed sales and how this is in bad taste to the diplomacy being played by both China and Taiwan

This year there was a historic meeting between the 2 presidents ...did USA broker the visit ?

Of course not because rhetoric threats of wars is what the USA is good for and the dumb mess they tend to leave behind

It's stupid politics as there is no threat to Taiwanese / Chines relationships to justify the sale or make it happen ....Would China spite the USA right now and authorise similar sales to Cuba ? Probably not as they realise the stupidity of it and how it looks

The USA should learn patience and talks but I understand in its short history talks have not been the Favourite medium of reconciliation

CCP have since 1949 been belligerent and bellicose against Taiwan, threatening to this day to invade.

However all of the threatening and menacing is already ancient Chinese history as the island's population has increasingly been turning away from the CCP. What looked good in 2008 when the presently dead lame duck Pres. Ma Ying-jeou was first elected has in fact turned out to be a CCP Ponzi scheme. The trends on Taiwan had been evident long before Ma which is why Ma and his KMT could not reverse them during these past eight years. Ma only expanded and accelerated the trends.

PLA doesn't have the capability to undertake a large scale amphibious invasion, nor will PLA have any until after 2020. It is anyway real that mounting such an invasion would take weeks and months of preparation, to include plainly obvious troop and ship movements on and over the mainland. It would hardly come as a surprise. So it could be precluded by diplomacy or pre-empted in other ways.

Last time the CCP Dictators tried to menace Taiwan occurred in 1996. The Boyz put their PLA to work firing missiles into the Strait 24 hours a day, each day, non-stop, day after day. Many missiles landed within eyesight of the island itself. CCP thought they were influencing the election....in their favor.

On the sixth day of the continuous 24 hour-days of missile bombardment the Boyz had to suddenly quit however. Two US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups appeared entering each end of the Strait, orderd to the scene by President Clinton. The Boyz had to put their tails between their legs and go home. They walked through the door with absolutely no face. None whatsoever. PLA was defeated besides.

Since then the Boyz have burned inside to sink a US aircraft carrier. These are the discredited ways of the deep dark ancient past. In modern terms it is called revanchism. In other words, CCP are idiot klutzes with weapons who have brought on themselves virtually every grievance and bent that drives them to "restore" the imaginary Middle Kingdom of the puffed up past.

[tonbridgebrit]

This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture.

This poster has stated many times to this thread that the PLA does not have the capability to conduct a cross-strait large scale amphibious assault against Taiwan. PLA will not have any such capability until sometime after 2020.

In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan. Taiwan is anyway well prepared to defend itself against air and sea assault by the PLA. Its shores are rocks, mountains, caves, crevases and the like containing hidden or obscure anti-missile and anti-ship defensive installations.

China furthermore has not conducted a large scale amphibious assault in a hundred years of modern warfare, if ever.

Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time. Not for any reason, rationale, purpose or goal. Nothing can be ruled out but this is the status quo situation each side much prefers to maintain, if not develop.

Laurence you need to step forward here to try to set this guy straight. It is an immensily challenging task, yes. Humongously challenging and unrewarding, for sure. But I am unable to penetrate the the guy's thick walls.

Thanks in advance.

"This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture."

Yes, we know that Washington is going to sell 1.83 billion dollars worth of military hardware to Taiwan, we know that.

"In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan."

Yes, we know that mainland China is going to attack and invade Taiwan if Taiwan declares independance. What we want to know is, IS AMERICA going to declare war on China, and hence, start World War Three, just because a bunch of Chinese in Taiwan want to declare independance. That's what we want to know.

"Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time."

Publicus, who on earth has claimed that Beijing has said that it is going to carry out an economic war on Taiwan ?? Please name them.

Publicus, those missiles that Beijing has got aimed at Taiwan. When/if Taiwan declares independance, and when/if Beijing fires those missiles, do you reckon that Beijing will cancel those orders for Taiwan's goods entering into mainland China ? Do you reckon Beijing will cancel those orders BEFORE, or DURING, or SOON AFTER launching those missile strikes and invasion ? Do you reckon that Beijing will carry on ordering goods from Taiwan even after launching the missiles and the invasion ? Please bear in mind that 27% of Taiwan's exports do actually go to mainland China. Do you reckon that Beijing's mass missiles strike and invasion will NOT effect Taiwan's exports to mainland China ?? And what about Taiwan's imports from mainland China ? Please note that 16% of Taiwan's imports are from mainland China. Do you reckon that Beijing will carry on delivering goods to Taiwan when it orders an invasion and mass missile strike ?

LawrenceChee, Lawrence, can you please try and get Publicus to answer the above questions. Thank you, Sir.

The allied military strategy is to make a PLA amphibious invasion of Taiwan too costly to the CCP and its PLA to consider. Too costly in respect of life and other CCP national resources. Taiwan is armed, trained, at the ready, have no doubt of it.

As has been pointed out, the CCP Dictators in Beijing cannot sustain another Tiananmen Square of 1989 world reaction against their brutal and malevolent application of armed force. CCP war against Taiwan would be rejected in far worse terms than even Tiananmen has been condemned to the present and going forward indefinitely. This applies to any such CCP reaction to the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong.

Percent this and percent that are relevant but immaterial to overall cross-strait relations or interactions. Both Beijing and Taiwan want the status quo. The status quo across the board. Each side has been up front and exact about it. These are the present realities.

The fact remains however that the election January 16 will bury once and for all the "one country, two interpretations" agreement of way back when, in 1992. That will be a central expression of the people of Taiwan in their overall vote expected by everyone to return the Democratic Progressive Party to government.

Timing of the arms package by the White House is an expression of its view of the upcoming election. The announcement was hailed by the DPP but muted by the incumbent government the KMT.

Those who are unable to see, or who are unwilling to accept, independence and sovereignty for the people and country of Taiwan would also lack any ability to see the evil inherent in the CCP and in its doomed systems. People of Taiwan know what they want and why they want it. Even CCPs are beginning to recognise the realities as they have developed over the past 25 years.

"Percent this and percent that are relevant but immaterial to overall cross-strait relations or interactions."

I do have a big smirk over this hilarious comment.

Okay, so when or if Taiwan makes whatever declaration, and China invades and launches one or two thousand missiles at Taiwan, oh, the issue of 27% of Taiwan's exports and 16% of Taiwan's imports are with mainland China, is actually relevant ??? Oh, when you fight a war with somebody, and that somebody is your biggest trading partner, oh, that effects your trade with them ??? Well, yes. And YOU will be hurt more by the drop in trade BECAUSE the size of your population and size of your economy is far smaller compared to the one that YOU are fighting with.

Oh, it is immaterial ? Well, yes, when Taiwan is getting hit by one or two thousand missiles, and when it is being invaded by China, during that month, 4% or 40% of Taiwan's exports are going to China is not as important an issue. And also, at the same time, as mainland Chinese soldiers are trying to get into Taiwan (because they want to storm the Taiwan government building, they have been practising that, we know ) whether it is 2% or 20% of all the goods in Taiwan's shops are made in mainland China is somehing that is going to be less important than the actual attack.

Publicus, consider the following. You have bought a gun to protect your shop. There's one group out there who want to burn your shop down IF you declare a certain something in the future. That's why you bought your gun and bullets. Now, that same group is purchasing goods in your shop, 27% of your sales revenue is actually from that group buying your stuff. (Please note, during the last decade, Beijing has encouraged/boosted Taiwan's exports to China by reducing tariffs and other measures, Beijing has not actually given exactly the same benefits to the European Union and others).

Okay, so you've got your gun and bullets, you badly want to make your declaration, you're ready to fight to the death. When you make your declaration, that group who are going to try and burn your shop down, the only reason why they might fail is because you're firing your bullets at them. Correct, you might kill them before they've entered into your shop. Now, do you reckon, that one group, they might actually stop buying your goods after you shoot and kill a load of them as they try to burn down your shop ? Do you reckon they might stop buying your goods before they try to burn down your shop ? Remember, these people want to burn down your shop if you make a certain declaration in the future. They know you've got a gun, but they still want to burn down your shop.

Publicus, IF it was the case that only 2% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China, and if only 1% of Taiwan's imports were from mainland China, and IF the tourist revenue from the Chinese tourists going to Taiwan was far smaller, and IF Taiwan could make a huge amount of money by exporting high-technology goods to the USA and EU, and IF Taiwan men could actually attract Taiwan women and marry them, well, YES, in that case, Taiwan can very easily declare independance. Taiwan would have done it years ago.

[LawrenceChee]

Talks and talks will get you there ....the thread is about USA armed sales and how this is in bad taste to the diplomacy being played by both China and Taiwan

This year there was a historic meeting between the 2 presidents ...did USA broker the visit ?

Of course not because rhetoric threats of wars is what the USA is good for and the dumb mess they tend to leave behind

It's stupid politics as there is no threat to Taiwanese / Chines relationships to justify the sale or make it happen ....Would China spite the USA right now and authorise similar sales to Cuba ? Probably not as they realise the stupidity of it and how it looks

The USA should learn patience and talks but I understand in its short history talks have not been the Favourite medium of reconciliation

CCP have since 1949 been belligerent and bellicose against Taiwan, threatening to this day to invade.

However all of the threatening and menacing is already ancient Chinese history as the island's population has increasingly been turning away from the CCP. What looked good in 2008 when the presently dead lame duck Pres. Ma Ying-jeou was first elected has in fact turned out to be a CCP Ponzi scheme. The trends on Taiwan had been evident long before Ma which is why Ma and his KMT could not reverse them during these past eight years. Ma only expanded and accelerated the trends.

PLA doesn't have the capability to undertake a large scale amphibious invasion, nor will PLA have any until after 2020. It is anyway real that mounting such an invasion would take weeks and months of preparation, to include plainly obvious troop and ship movements on and over the mainland. It would hardly come as a surprise. So it could be precluded by diplomacy or pre-empted in other ways.

Last time the CCP Dictators tried to menace Taiwan occurred in 1996. The Boyz put their PLA to work firing missiles into the Strait 24 hours a day, each day, non-stop, day after day. Many missiles landed within eyesight of the island itself. CCP thought they were influencing the election....in their favor.

On the sixth day of the continuous 24 hour-days of missile bombardment the Boyz had to suddenly quit however. Two US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups appeared entering each end of the Strait, orderd to the scene by President Clinton. The Boyz had to put their tails between their legs and go home. They walked through the door with absolutely no face. None whatsoever. PLA was defeated besides.

Since then the Boyz have burned inside to sink a US aircraft carrier. These are the discredited ways of the deep dark ancient past. In modern terms it is called revanchism. In other words, CCP are idiot klutzes with weapons who have brought on themselves virtually every grievance and bent that drives them to "restore" the imaginary Middle Kingdom of the puffed up past.

1996 fast forward to 2015 ....the world have seen the USA embroiled the world in a middle east war over personal oil gains and ill information of some fabricated chemical weapons threat and brought their English cousins reluctantly into a dumb unnecessary war till today affects lives in Iraq as well as the war veterans who were unnecessarily injured and their families

There are endless foreign policies blunders and God forbid if that idiot Trump wins ...the Chinese would be laughing as democracy have ensured you elected a dumber president than Bush

Try sailing past again through China , I believe at this time the commanders on those USA ships are wary and alert and not feeling all necessary powerful like in 1996 when they felt untouchables ....to patrol through without wondering what the Chinese are up to ....

2015 China is wiser and not as weak as one thinks. China have made improvements on their own timeline and continue to blend and engage the world in capitalism and its CCP style of governance ...at the same time it has not necessarily cowered to western standards and has made their style on their own time irritating certain posters who continue to proclaim their demise

Whoever is the next Taiwanese president would continue to engage China ...why refuse relations ? Everyone across the straits is Chinese ....anyone that has been to Xiame or Swatow lately and walked into a Chinese tea house , I am wondering who can differentiate a mainland Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese

I continue to say the next 3 generations of Chinese to come will bury the hatchet and move on ...

[Publicus]

Percent this and percent that remain unthreatened as both sides in this consider their options over the next 12 months. Trade and personal marriages and the like between the mainland and the island country remain stable. Each side favors the status quo.

CCP are not making any threats.

CCP are continuing to speak of the "one country, two interpretations" agreement of 1992 between Beijing and the Kuomintang government which the opposition Democratic Progressive Party currently led by Tsai Ing-wen has never accepted. If the Agreement turns out to be a temporary one, then so be it.

All of this is evolutionary y'know. It's just that in the modern world of IT and changing values, evolution gets compressed the way we compress a pc download into a zip file.

Taiwan presidential front runner says she wants stable ties with mainland China, but issue of future independence remains open

The front runner in Taiwan’s presidential says she will seek stable relations with mainland China, but does not rule out revisiting the island’s official stance on independence, leaving open questions about how Beijing would respond to her probable victory in next month’s elections.

“We cannot simply be bound to China,” Tsai said. “That's what worries us most about the past eight years — the sense that that's the only choice we have. That's not good for our economy or our security.”

Against the backdrop of a sputtering economy and rising anti-mainland sentiment, the January 16 elections have been framed by both the KMT and the opposition Democratic Progressive Party as a referendum on President Ma Ying-jeou’s China policy.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/policies-politics/article/1895453/taiwan-presidential-front-runner-says-she-wants-stable

It should be noted that although the general election is on January 16, the next president of Taiwan does not take office until May.

If and when Tsai comes into office in May, “China will have to decide whether it wants the whole thing to collapse and further alienate the Taiwanese public, or, for the initial period in a Tsai administration, see what she's about and determine whether they can work with her,” Cole said.

Tsai has held talks with “persons of influence in Beijing,” and is likely to have already explored some of those other options, said J. Michael Cole, a senior Taipei-based fellow at Nottingham University’s China Policy Institute.

“My guess is that they will pick the latter option and will assess what she means by ‘other ways to conduct business’ with them.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/china-warns-taiwan-talks-may-collapse-if-next-president-abandons-one-china/2015/12/30/2fd65aa0-3818-438e-b67a-681666c88581_story.html

Given Ms. Tsai’s repeated vows to maintain the “status quo” in the Taiwan Strait, as well as her commitment to engaging China constructively and “with sincerity,” Beijing would be shooting itself in the foot if, come May 20, it suddenly “collapsed” dialogue with Taipei, a decision that could only succeed in propelling Taiwan away from China and undo eight years of normalization that, by almost every yardstick, were politically beneficial to Beijing.

Notwithstanding the [CCP Taiwan Affairs Office’s] rhetoric and the more extremist elements in the CCP who would choose to act on its threats, we can therefore expect that Beijing will act pragmatically in the initial phase of a Tsai administration, during which it would assess her commitment to dialogue and continuity (keen on improving Taiwan’s moribund economy, Ms. Tsai knows all too well that unduly alienating the world’s second-largest economy and Taiwan’s No.1 trading partner is not a viable policy).

http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2015/12/189624/

Edited December 31, 2015 by Publicus

[Publicus]

This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture.

This poster has stated many times to this thread that the PLA does not have the capability to conduct a cross-strait large scale amphibious assault against Taiwan. PLA will not have any such capability until sometime after 2020.

In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan. Taiwan is anyway well prepared to defend itself against air and sea assault by the PLA. Its shores are rocks, mountains, caves, crevases and the like containing hidden or obscure anti-missile and anti-ship defensive installations.

China furthermore has not conducted a large scale amphibious assault in a hundred years of modern warfare, if ever.

Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time. Not for any reason, rationale, purpose or goal. Nothing can be ruled out but this is the status quo situation each side much prefers to maintain, if not develop.

Laurence you need to step forward here to try to set this guy straight. It is an immensily challenging task, yes. Humongously challenging and unrewarding, for sure. But I am unable to penetrate the the guy's thick walls.

Thanks in advance.

"This poster has posted several times about the military deterrence strategy Taiwan has against a CCP ordered invasion of it by the PLA. The strategy is fully accepted and supported by the United States under the authority of the Taiwan Relations Act of 1979, as is the continuing updated arming of Taiwan so that it may establish and maintain a credible and effective military deterrence posture."

Yes, we know that Washington is going to sell 1.83 billion dollars worth of military hardware to Taiwan, we know that.

"In the meantime, PLA Second Artillery Corps can launch a thousand missiles but that does not take physical possession of Taiwan."

Yes, we know that mainland China is going to attack and invade Taiwan if Taiwan declares independance. What we want to know is, IS AMERICA going to declare war on China, and hence, start World War Three, just because a bunch of Chinese in Taiwan want to declare independance. That's what we want to know.

"Neither is there an economic war on the horizon or forseen at any approaching time."

Publicus, who on earth has claimed that Beijing has said that it is going to carry out an economic war on Taiwan ?? Please name them.

Publicus, those missiles that Beijing has got aimed at Taiwan. When/if Taiwan declares independance, and when/if Beijing fires those missiles, do you reckon that Beijing will cancel those orders for Taiwan's goods entering into mainland China ? Do you reckon Beijing will cancel those orders BEFORE, or DURING, or SOON AFTER launching those missile strikes and invasion ? Do you reckon that Beijing will carry on ordering goods from Taiwan even after launching the missiles and the invasion ? Please bear in mind that 27% of Taiwan's exports do actually go to mainland China. Do you reckon that Beijing's mass missiles strike and invasion will NOT effect Taiwan's exports to mainland China ?? And what about Taiwan's imports from mainland China ? Please note that 16% of Taiwan's imports are from mainland China. Do you reckon that Beijing will carry on delivering goods to Taiwan when it orders an invasion and mass missile strike ?

LawrenceChee, Lawrence, can you please try and get Publicus to answer the above questions. Thank you, Sir.

The allied military strategy is to make a PLA amphibious invasion of Taiwan too costly to the CCP and its PLA to consider. Too costly in respect of life and other CCP national resources. Taiwan is armed, trained, at the ready, have no doubt of it.

As has been pointed out, the CCP Dictators in Beijing cannot sustain another Tiananmen Square of 1989 world reaction against their brutal and malevolent application of armed force. CCP war against Taiwan would be rejected in far worse terms than even Tiananmen has been condemned to the present and going forward indefinitely. This applies to any such CCP reaction to the Umbrella Movement in Hong Kong.

Percent this and percent that are relevant but immaterial to overall cross-strait relations or interactions. Both Beijing and Taiwan want the status quo. The status quo across the board. Each side has been up front and exact about it. These are the present realities.

The fact remains however that the election January 16 will bury once and for all the "one country, two interpretations" agreement of way back when, in 1992. That will be a central expression of the people of Taiwan in their overall vote expected by everyone to return the Democratic Progressive Party to government.

Timing of the arms package by the White House is an expression of its view of the upcoming election. The announcement was hailed by the DPP but muted by the incumbent government the KMT.

Those who are unable to see, or who are unwilling to accept, independence and sovereignty for the people and country of Taiwan would also lack any ability to see the evil inherent in the CCP and in its doomed systems. People of Taiwan know what they want and why they want it. Even CCPs are beginning to recognise the realities as they have developed over the past 25 years.

"Percent this and percent that are relevant but immaterial to overall cross-strait relations or interactions."

I do have a big smirk over this hilarious comment.

Okay, so when or if Taiwan makes whatever declaration, and China invades and launches one or two thousand missiles at Taiwan, oh, the issue of 27% of Taiwan's exports and 16% of Taiwan's imports are with mainland China, is actually relevant ??? Oh, when you fight a war with somebody, and that somebody is your biggest trading partner, oh, that effects your trade with them ??? Well, yes. And YOU will be hurt more by the drop in trade BECAUSE the size of your population and size of your economy is far smaller compared to the one that YOU are fighting with.

Oh, it is immaterial ? Well, yes, when Taiwan is getting hit by one or two thousand missiles, and when it is being invaded by China, during that month, 4% or 40% of Taiwan's exports are going to China is not as important an issue. And also, at the same time, as mainland Chinese soldiers are trying to get into Taiwan (because they want to storm the Taiwan government building, they have been practising that, we know ) whether it is 2% or 20% of all the goods in Taiwan's shops are made in mainland China is somehing that is going to be less important than the actual attack.

Publicus, consider the following. You have bought a gun to protect your shop. There's one group out there who want to burn your shop down IF you declare a certain something in the future. That's why you bought your gun and bullets. Now, that same group is purchasing goods in your shop, 27% of your sales revenue is actually from that group buying your stuff. (Please note, during the last decade, Beijing has encouraged/boosted Taiwan's exports to China by reducing tariffs and other measures, Beijing has not actually given exactly the same benefits to the European Union and others).

Okay, so you've got your gun and bullets, you badly want to make your declaration, you're ready to fight to the death. When you make your declaration, that group who are going to try and burn your shop down, the only reason why they might fail is because you're firing your bullets at them. Correct, you might kill them before they've entered into your shop. Now, do you reckon, that one group, they might actually stop buying your goods after you shoot and kill a load of them as they try to burn down your shop ? Do you reckon they might stop buying your goods before they try to burn down your shop ? Remember, these people want to burn down your shop if you make a certain declaration in the future. They know you've got a gun, but they still want to burn down your shop.

Publicus, IF it was the case that only 2% of Taiwan's exports go to mainland China, and if only 1% of Taiwan's imports were from mainland China, and IF the tourist revenue from the Chinese tourists going to Taiwan was far smaller, and IF Taiwan could make a huge amount of money by exporting high-technology goods to the USA and EU, and IF Taiwan men could actually attract Taiwan women and marry them, well, YES, in that case, Taiwan can very easily declare independance. Taiwan would have done it years ago.

You habitually contradict yourself and you constantly misrepresent my posts. You repeatedly misstate my actual statements when you try to quote from my posts. I'd ignored this until now. There are simply too many wrongs to try to correct; that's all I'd be doing in numerous replies.

For these and other reasons, I'd already ceased reading the posts. I skim them instead because your posts always say the same thing, i.e., percent this and percent that, and that Publicus you don't know anything. Your posts are presumptuous overbearing lectures that have an imperial tone and manner to them.

So presently when I see your percent this and percent that posts, I skim them to then make yet another post that is based in realities unrecognised in your posts. I then await your next imperious post of misstatements and misrepresentations of my posts.

Your posts are indeed full of misquotes of me to include misrepresentations of my posts while being self-contradictory, one post after the other. While everyone can and does have a moment of self-contradiction, being consistently self-contradictory raises the question of quality or quantity.

[tonbridgebrit]

Talks and talks will get you there ....the thread is about USA armed sales and how this is in bad taste to the diplomacy being played by both China and Taiwan

This year there was a historic meeting between the 2 presidents ...did USA broker the visit ?

Of course not because rhetoric threats of wars is what the USA is good for and the dumb mess they tend to leave behind

It's stupid politics as there is no threat to Taiwanese / Chines relationships to justify the sale or make it happen ....Would China spite the USA right now and authorise similar sales to Cuba ? Probably not as they realise the stupidity of it and how it looks

The USA should learn patience and talks but I understand in its short history talks have not been the Favourite medium of reconciliation

CCP have since 1949 been belligerent and bellicose against Taiwan, threatening to this day to invade.

However all of the threatening and menacing is already ancient Chinese history as the island's population has increasingly been turning away from the CCP. What looked good in 2008 when the presently dead lame duck Pres. Ma Ying-jeou was first elected has in fact turned out to be a CCP Ponzi scheme. The trends on Taiwan had been evident long before Ma which is why Ma and his KMT could not reverse them during these past eight years. Ma only expanded and accelerated the trends.

PLA doesn't have the capability to undertake a large scale amphibious invasion, nor will PLA have any until after 2020. It is anyway real that mounting such an invasion would take weeks and months of preparation, to include plainly obvious troop and ship movements on and over the mainland. It would hardly come as a surprise. So it could be precluded by diplomacy or pre-empted in other ways.

Last time the CCP Dictators tried to menace Taiwan occurred in 1996. The Boyz put their PLA to work firing missiles into the Strait 24 hours a day, each day, non-stop, day after day. Many missiles landed within eyesight of the island itself. CCP thought they were influencing the election....in their favor.

On the sixth day of the continuous 24 hour-days of missile bombardment the Boyz had to suddenly quit however. Two US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups appeared entering each end of the Strait, orderd to the scene by President Clinton. The Boyz had to put their tails between their legs and go home. They walked through the door with absolutely no face. None whatsoever. PLA was defeated besides.

Since then the Boyz have burned inside to sink a US aircraft carrier. These are the discredited ways of the deep dark ancient past. In modern terms it is called revanchism. In other words, CCP are idiot klutzes with weapons who have brought on themselves virtually every grievance and bent that drives them to "restore" the imaginary Middle Kingdom of the puffed up past.

1996 fast forward to 2015 ....the world have seen the USA embroiled the world in a middle east war over personal oil gains and ill information of some fabricated chemical weapons threat and brought their English cousins reluctantly into a dumb unnecessary war till today affects lives in Iraq as well as the war veterans who were unnecessarily injured and their families

There are endless foreign policies blunders and God forbid if that idiot Trump wins ...the Chinese would be laughing as democracy have ensured you elected a dumber president than Bush

Try sailing past again through China , I believe at this time the commanders on those USA ships are wary and alert and not feeling all necessary powerful like in 1996 when they felt untouchables ....to patrol through without wondering what the Chinese are up to ....

2015 China is wiser and not as weak as one thinks. China have made improvements on their own timeline and continue to blend and engage the world in capitalism and its CCP style of governance ...at the same time it has not necessarily cowered to western standards and has made their style on their own time irritating certain posters who continue to proclaim their demise

Whoever is the next Taiwanese president would continue to engage China ...why refuse relations ? Everyone across the straits is Chinese ....anyone that has been to Xiame or Swatow lately and walked into a Chinese tea house , I am wondering who can differentiate a mainland Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese

I continue to say the next 3 generations of Chinese to come will bury the hatchet and move on ...

Yes, 1996 and 2015 are not the same. Twenty years on, and the world is not the same.

How many mainland Chinese tourists were there in Thailand back in 1996 ? Not many, I think. Today, how many Chinese tourists in Bangkok and Pattaya ? There are many, so many, the Chinese tourists are causing 'people congestion'. It is the same in Taiwan, Taiwan is being flooded by mainland-Chinese tourists. And what is the future ?

Well, there's been a big increase in Chinese tourists in the last five years alone, history is happening right in front of us, we sit back, and notice more and more every year. And the potential, the potential for making even more money, to increase tourist revenues, is HUGE. Right now, the bulk of the population of China can still not afford holidays outside of China. But the percentage who can is increasing rapidly. I predict 10% growth in Chinese tourist numbers every year, it will double in the next seven or eight years.

And twenty years ago, Britain did not really regard mainland-China as a big deal. Two months ago, Xi Jinping made an official visit to Britain. The British Prime Minister, David Cameron welcomed Xi Jinping warmly. The Queen of England too. China is a nation that can benefit all of us by exporting a vast mountain of goods, and China can also be a HUGE market for everybody's goods. China is also able to build vast infrastructure projects. They can do it in Britain, Thailand, Taiwan, anywhere. Yes, China can benefit all of us. I cheered when I saw David Cameron and Xi Jinping together !

This picture is real, it's not a fake photo !

[Publicus]

Much better.

Once someone has found his groove he should stay with it.

Now, about the $1.8 billion....

[tonbridgebrit]

Xi Jinping and David Cameron can get togeher and actually drink some beer. Britain and China are friends. And America and Britain are ALLIES, America and Britain fight alongside each other. And yet, Taiwan feels threatened, Taiwan has to go and buy 1.8 billion dollars of military hardware from the USA. The military hardware is for what ? To sink Chinese ships carrying Chinese soldiers for an invasion of Taiwan.


How about this ? How about NOT buying 1.8 billion dollars worth of military hardware ? How about the Taiwan government takes this 1.8 billion dollars to mainland-China and they use it to set up a giant factory complex on the Chinese coast-line, near Taiwan ? This giant factory complex, it will produce flat-screen televisions, computers and other electronics, like lap-tops and notebooks. The products will be sold in China and also exported to the rest of the world. China is not exactly going to be against the creation of thousands of jobs in China. And the profits from selling the stuff ? The profits get sent to Taiwan, it will be declared as government revenue, same as tax revenue. They can spend it on whatever government project in Taiwan. They can use it to build a load of gyms in Taiwan, people in Taiwan can use those gyms for free, or at a massively reduced rate. And oh look, a load of construction workers in Taiwan will get paid work to build these gyms.

[Publicus]

Talks and talks will get you there ....the thread is about USA armed sales and how this is in bad taste to the diplomacy being played by both China and Taiwan

This year there was a historic meeting between the 2 presidents ...did USA broker the visit ?

Of course not because rhetoric threats of wars is what the USA is good for and the dumb mess they tend to leave behind

It's stupid politics as there is no threat to Taiwanese / Chines relationships to justify the sale or make it happen ....Would China spite the USA right now and authorise similar sales to Cuba ? Probably not as they realise the stupidity of it and how it looks

The USA should learn patience and talks but I understand in its short history talks have not been the Favourite medium of reconciliation

CCP have since 1949 been belligerent and bellicose against Taiwan, threatening to this day to invade.

However all of the threatening and menacing is already ancient Chinese history as the island's population has increasingly been turning away from the CCP. What looked good in 2008 when the presently dead lame duck Pres. Ma Ying-jeou was first elected has in fact turned out to be a CCP Ponzi scheme. The trends on Taiwan had been evident long before Ma which is why Ma and his KMT could not reverse them during these past eight years. Ma only expanded and accelerated the trends.

PLA doesn't have the capability to undertake a large scale amphibious invasion, nor will PLA have any until after 2020. It is anyway real that mounting such an invasion would take weeks and months of preparation, to include plainly obvious troop and ship movements on and over the mainland. It would hardly come as a surprise. So it could be precluded by diplomacy or pre-empted in other ways.

Last time the CCP Dictators tried to menace Taiwan occurred in 1996. The Boyz put their PLA to work firing missiles into the Strait 24 hours a day, each day, non-stop, day after day. Many missiles landed within eyesight of the island itself. CCP thought they were influencing the election....in their favor.

On the sixth day of the continuous 24 hour-days of missile bombardment the Boyz had to suddenly quit however. Two US Navy aircraft carrier battle groups appeared entering each end of the Strait, orderd to the scene by President Clinton. The Boyz had to put their tails between their legs and go home. They walked through the door with absolutely no face. None whatsoever. PLA was defeated besides.

Since then the Boyz have burned inside to sink a US aircraft carrier. These are the discredited ways of the deep dark ancient past. In modern terms it is called revanchism. In other words, CCP are idiot klutzes with weapons who have brought on themselves virtually every grievance and bent that drives them to "restore" the imaginary Middle Kingdom of the puffed up past.

1996 fast forward to 2015 ....the world have seen the USA embroiled the world in a middle east war over personal oil gains and ill information of some fabricated chemical weapons threat and brought their English cousins reluctantly into a dumb unnecessary war till today affects lives in Iraq as well as the war veterans who were unnecessarily injured and their families

There are endless foreign policies blunders and God forbid if that idiot Trump wins ...the Chinese would be laughing as democracy have ensured you elected a dumber president than Bush

Try sailing past again through China , I believe at this time the commanders on those USA ships are wary and alert and not feeling all necessary powerful like in 1996 when they felt untouchables ....to patrol through without wondering what the Chinese are up to ....

2015 China is wiser and not as weak as one thinks. China have made improvements on their own timeline and continue to blend and engage the world in capitalism and its CCP style of governance ...at the same time it has not necessarily cowered to western standards and has made their style on their own time irritating certain posters who continue to proclaim their demise

Whoever is the next Taiwanese president would continue to engage China ...why refuse relations ? Everyone across the straits is Chinese ....anyone that has been to Xiame or Swatow lately and walked into a Chinese tea house , I am wondering who can differentiate a mainland Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese

I continue to say the next 3 generations of Chinese to come will bury the hatchet and move on ...

The Prognosticator.

Prognosticating the obvious. Except for the omission there are the mainland CCP Chinese and there are the Taiwanese and also the Hong Kongers that reject the CCP China and being called Chinese. That is a hard reality for those who think in terms of a common Chinese race among many races to accept, or even to deal with. But it is the present reality going forward.

The post also omitted certain of the CCP's advances over the past 20 years. So here is one of 'em not many CCPs talk much about, linked to the zine Popular Science.

“Given over a decade’s worth of global technology advances, intensive investment and competent program management, it should come as no surprise that China will be the second nation in the world to start production of stealth fighters,” it said.

“The J-20 will give the People’s Liberation Army Air Force a technological advantage over every other Asian air force. While the J-20 may not be able to supercruise [fly at supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners] with its current Russian AL-31 turbofan engines, its high level of strength, long range and electronic warfare capabilities will make it a very formidable foe for other [Asia air forces] fighters,” it said.

“China is moving forward at breakneck speed,” University of California professor Peter Navarro, a China expert, said.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/12/31/2003636095

Presently the 1970s design US F-15 fighter is, in its several technological reincarnations, superior to any fighter the PLA Air Force has. It is the fighter used by the Turkey air force to shoot down the Russian Su 24 fighter which in fact never had a chance. Most Asian air forces have it to include Taiwan and Japan.

With the PLA-AF J-20 stealth fighter prototype soon to go into production, the US will need to consider whether it will provide Taiwan with the F-22 stealth fighter in order to maintain some balance between the two military forces on opposite sides of the Strait.

The $1.8 bn gets Taiwan mostly antimissile systems and armaments that are defensive in nature. If the CCP does begin to produce stealth fighter aircraft using stolen US technology, then the US will need to respond in kind. The course of events as determined by elections in Taiwan and the USA during 2016 would indicate a tit for tat sequence is all but assured.

The next military sale to Taiwan is expected to be many times this relatively small package which itself is the first US arms sale to Taipei since 2011. Pres. Ma Ying-jeou since then has lobbied Washington for a small package out of consideration of his brothers of the CCP and to delay until after the next election, which is now upon us. President Obama has gone ahead with the deal and did in fact announce it on the eve of the election.

DPP immediately welcomed the announcement, KMT said little of it.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Publicus

[Usernames]

1996 fast forward to 2015 ....the world have seen the USA embroiled the world in a middle east war over personal oil gains and ill information of some fabricated chemical weapons threat and brought their English cousins reluctantly into a dumb unnecessary war till today affects lives in Iraq as well as the war veterans who were unnecessarily injured and their families

There are endless foreign policies blunders and God forbid if that idiot Trump wins ...the Chinese would be laughing as democracy have ensured you elected a dumber president than Bush

Try sailing past again through China , I believe at this time the commanders on those USA ships are wary and alert and not feeling all necessary powerful like in 1996 when they felt untouchables ....to patrol through without wondering what the Chinese are up to ....

2015 China is wiser and not as weak as one thinks. China have made improvements on their own timeline and continue to blend and engage the world in capitalism and its CCP style of governance ...at the same time it has not necessarily cowered to western standards and has made their style on their own time irritating certain posters who continue to proclaim their demise

Whoever is the next Taiwanese president would continue to engage China ...why refuse relations ? Everyone across the straits is Chinese ....anyone that has been to Xiame or Swatow lately and walked into a Chinese tea house , I am wondering who can differentiate a mainland Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese

I continue to say the next 3 generations of Chinese to come will bury the hatchet and move on ...

The Prognosticator.

Prognosticating the obvious. Except for the omission there are the mainland CCP Chinese and there are the Taiwanese and also the Hong Kongers that reject the CCP China and being called Chinese. That is a hard reality for those who think in terms of a common Chinese race among many races to accept, or even to deal with. But it is the present reality going forward.

The post also omitted certain of the CCP's advances over the past 20 years. So here is one of 'em not many CCPs talk much about, linked to the zine Popular Science.

“Given over a decade’s worth of global technology advances, intensive investment and competent program management, it should come as no surprise that China will be the second nation in the world to start production of stealth fighters,” it said.

“The J-20 will give the People’s Liberation Army Air Force a technological advantage over every other Asian air force. While the J-20 may not be able to supercruise [fly at supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners] with its current Russian AL-31 turbofan engines, its high level of strength, long range and electronic warfare capabilities will make it a very formidable foe for other [Asia air forces] fighters,” it said.

“China is moving forward at breakneck speed,” University of California professor Peter Navarro, a China expert, said.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/12/31/2003636095

Presently the 1970s design US F-15 fighter is, in its several technological reincarnations, superior to any fighter the PLA Air Force has. It is the fighter used by the Turkey air force to shoot down the Russian Su 24 fighter which in fact never had a chance. Most Asian air forces have it to include Taiwan and Japan.

With the PLA-AF J-20 stealth fighter prototype soon to go into production, the US will need to consider whether it will provide Taiwan with the F-22 stealth fighter in order to maintain some balance between the two military forces on opposite sides of the Strait.

The $1.8 bn gets Taiwan mostly antimissile systems and armaments that are defensive in nature. If the CCP does begin to produce stealth fighter aircraft using stolen US technology, then the US will need to respond in kind. The course of events as determined by elections in Taiwan and the USA during 2016 would indicate a tit for tat sequence is all but assured.

The next military sale to Taiwan is expected to be many times this relatively small package which itself is the first US arms sale to Taipei since 2011. Pres. Ma Ying-jeou since then has lobbied Washington for a small package out of consideration of his brothers of the CCP and to delay until after the next election, which is now upon us. President Obama has gone ahead with the deal and did in fact announce it on the eve of the election.

DPP immediately welcomed the announcement, KMT said little of it.

The J20 is a flying junkyard. It's underpowered. Its avionics dismally inferior. And the ability of the Chinese to manufacture in number to sufficient tolerances virtually impossible.

[Publicus]

Xi Jinping and David Cameron can get togeher and actually drink some beer. Britain and China are friends. And America and Britain are ALLIES, America and Britain fight alongside each other. And yet, Taiwan feels threatened, Taiwan has to go and buy 1.8 billion dollars of military hardware from the USA. The military hardware is for what ? To sink Chinese ships carrying Chinese soldiers for an invasion of Taiwan.

How about this ? How about NOT buying 1.8 billion dollars worth of military hardware ? How about the Taiwan government takes this 1.8 billion dollars to mainland-China and they use it to set up a giant factory complex on the Chinese coast-line, near Taiwan ? This giant factory complex, it will produce flat-screen televisions, computers and other electronics, like lap-tops and notebooks. The products will be sold in China and also exported to the rest of the world. China is not exactly going to be against the creation of thousands of jobs in China. And the profits from selling the stuff ? The profits get sent to Taiwan, it will be declared as government revenue, same as tax revenue. They can spend it on whatever government project in Taiwan. They can use it to build a load of gyms in Taiwan, people in Taiwan can use those gyms for free, or at a massively reduced rate. And oh look, a load of construction workers in Taiwan will get paid work to build these gyms.

Much improved thx and appreciated.

Still however the post is overly focused on what are indeed very real everyday matters, i.e., economics and personal life. The Marxist stuff that economics (and class) are everything was simply a restatement of the obvious with the utopia thrown in to spice up a boring topic. Lenin with his dictatorship of the proletariat also declared the personal life to be "petty bourgeois." Now we have the CCP adding "Chinese characteristics" to the mortuary of loser ideas and notions.

They can use it to build a load of gyms in Taiwan, people in Taiwan can use those gyms for free, or at a massively reduced rate.

A windfall of any kind is pretty much universally welcomed by anyone anywhere. Why don't you send your proposal to the PLA and to the CCP Politburo. I'll vouch for you with the new government on Taiwan. All three along with $25 bucks will get you a cafe' mocha at any NYC Starbucks.

Here btw is what the Taiwanese people on Taiwan know will happen to them if the CCP takes control of the island by any means, whether via economics or by military force.

There are 367,749 schools in the CCP China grades 1-12. One school holds as many as 5000 students/pupils. Not every school, most of them. Other schools have 2500 students or 3000 of 'em. About 10% of the 87,749 secondary schools have residential dorms where boys bursting with testosterone are kept separate from the fair maidens of CCP society. (And from society itself.)

The more recently built schools often have a running track with some sort of football (soccer) field. That would be it for sports facilities. However, since CCP students are in school till 5:30 not much goes on outside the building(s). Once the school building is closed, so are the outside facilities. All schools are enclosed by a wall or a wire fence. No evening gatherings of citizens for sports, exercise, running or jogging....no nuthin. The schools and their grounds darken when the sun sets and remain silent till the dawn. CCP won't risk people of the People's Republic getting together in one place on their own for any reason.

Taiwan too can have this under CCP rule.

CCP also provides numerous parks throughout its newly constructed cities or newly constructed extensions of existing urban centers. Nice place for families to go on Sundays, which is their one day off from the standard six-day CCP workweek.

The parks have trees, walkways that lead to ponds with colorful fish one can feed by buying a small bag of very inexpensive fish food on the spot. The many parks near you have benches and little exercise stations with basic outdoor muscle loosening items. There are no playgrounds however at these parks. No football fields, no grandstands, no baseball diamonds, no basketball courts or tennis or badminton courts....no nuthin. Families stay within themselves at the parks which is how the CCP likes it.

I recall when I returned to Thailand after several years in the CCP China. One evening we drove past a park and I was momentarily stunned to see lights blazing and people everywhere in numerous activities on numerous facilities. It's called freedom and the people of Taiwan will keep the freedom they have and will only accept extending those freedoms further. Same for Hong Kong.

[LawrenceChee]

1996 fast forward to 2015 ....the world have seen the USA embroiled the world in a middle east war over personal oil gains and ill information of some fabricated chemical weapons threat and brought their English cousins reluctantly into a dumb unnecessary war till today affects lives in Iraq as well as the war veterans who were unnecessarily injured and their families

There are endless foreign policies blunders and God forbid if that idiot Trump wins ...the Chinese would be laughing as democracy have ensured you elected a dumber president than Bush

Try sailing past again through China , I believe at this time the commanders on those USA ships are wary and alert and not feeling all necessary powerful like in 1996 when they felt untouchables ....to patrol through without wondering what the Chinese are up to ....

2015 China is wiser and not as weak as one thinks. China have made improvements on their own timeline and continue to blend and engage the world in capitalism and its CCP style of governance ...at the same time it has not necessarily cowered to western standards and has made their style on their own time irritating certain posters who continue to proclaim their demise

Whoever is the next Taiwanese president would continue to engage China ...why refuse relations ? Everyone across the straits is Chinese ....anyone that has been to Xiame or Swatow lately and walked into a Chinese tea house , I am wondering who can differentiate a mainland Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese

I continue to say the next 3 generations of Chinese to come will bury the hatchet and move on ...

The Prognosticator.

Prognosticating the obvious. Except for the omission there are the mainland CCP Chinese and there are the Taiwanese and also the Hong Kongers that reject the CCP China and being called Chinese. That is a hard reality for those who think in terms of a common Chinese race among many races to accept, or even to deal with. But it is the present reality going forward.

The post also omitted certain of the CCP's advances over the past 20 years. So here is one of 'em not many CCPs talk much about, linked to the zine Popular Science.

“Given over a decade’s worth of global technology advances, intensive investment and competent program management, it should come as no surprise that China will be the second nation in the world to start production of stealth fighters,” it said.

“The J-20 will give the People’s Liberation Army Air Force a technological advantage over every other Asian air force. While the J-20 may not be able to supercruise [fly at supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners] with its current Russian AL-31 turbofan engines, its high level of strength, long range and electronic warfare capabilities will make it a very formidable foe for other [Asia air forces] fighters,” it said.

“China is moving forward at breakneck speed,” University of California professor Peter Navarro, a China expert, said.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/12/31/2003636095

Presently the 1970s design US F-15 fighter is, in its several technological reincarnations, superior to any fighter the PLA Air Force has. It is the fighter used by the Turkey air force to shoot down the Russian Su 24 fighter which in fact never had a chance. Most Asian air forces have it to include Taiwan and Japan.

With the PLA-AF J-20 stealth fighter prototype soon to go into production, the US will need to consider whether it will provide Taiwan with the F-22 stealth fighter in order to maintain some balance between the two military forces on opposite sides of the Strait.

The $1.8 bn gets Taiwan mostly antimissile systems and armaments that are defensive in nature. If the CCP does begin to produce stealth fighter aircraft using stolen US technology, then the US will need to respond in kind. The course of events as determined by elections in Taiwan and the USA during 2016 would indicate a tit for tat sequence is all but assured.

The next military sale to Taiwan is expected to be many times this relatively small package which itself is the first US arms sale to Taipei since 2011. Pres. Ma Ying-jeou since then has lobbied Washington for a small package out of consideration of his brothers of the CCP and to delay until after the next election, which is now upon us. President Obama has gone ahead with the deal and did in fact announce it on the eve of the election.

DPP immediately welcomed the announcement, KMT said little of it.

The J20 is a flying junkyard. It's underpowered. Its avionics dismally inferior. And the ability of the Chinese to manufacture in number to sufficient tolerances virtually impossible.

That was the same British intelligence who spoke of Japanese zero planes made out of tin plates and kitchen utensils ? Maybe the Chinese are trying to fool the world ?

The Brits got their ass kicked by the Japanese in WWII ..unlike the flashy USA the CCP has no need to be on every national geo program telling people how good their planes are etc etc

The west has got a good history of underestimating their far eastern partners and in every war zone here like in Vietnam got their asses kicked after their initial bombing flux

Like I say the strategy is weak and not Long term Zzzzzz just a few weeks of bombing and no troopers with experience to mop up the resistance

The USA commanders may be smug in having the hardware to initiate a bombing campaign but the tenacity to win ground ....I don't believe that experience is that forthcoming any more

[LawrenceChee]

Xi Jinping and David Cameron can get togeher and actually drink some beer. Britain and China are friends. And America and Britain are ALLIES, America and Britain fight alongside each other. And yet, Taiwan feels threatened, Taiwan has to go and buy 1.8 billion dollars of military hardware from the USA. The military hardware is for what ? To sink Chinese ships carrying Chinese soldiers for an invasion of Taiwan.

How about this ? How about NOT buying 1.8 billion dollars worth of military hardware ? How about the Taiwan government takes this 1.8 billion dollars to mainland-China and they use it to set up a giant factory complex on the Chinese coast-line, near Taiwan ? This giant factory complex, it will produce flat-screen televisions, computers and other electronics, like lap-tops and notebooks. The products will be sold in China and also exported to the rest of the world. China is not exactly going to be against the creation of thousands of jobs in China. And the profits from selling the stuff ? The profits get sent to Taiwan, it will be declared as government revenue, same as tax revenue. They can spend it on whatever government project in Taiwan. They can use it to build a load of gyms in Taiwan, people in Taiwan can use those gyms for free, or at a massively reduced rate. And oh look, a load of construction workers in Taiwan will get paid work to build these gyms.

Much improved thx and appreciated.

Still however the post is overly focused on what are indeed very real everyday matters, i.e., economics and personal life. The Marxist stuff that economics (and class) are everything was simply a restatement of the obvious with the utopia thrown in to spice up a boring topic. Lenin with his dictatorship of the proletariat also declared the personal life to be "petty bourgeois." Now we have the CCP adding "Chinese characteristics" to the mortuary of loser ideas and notions.

They can use it to build a load of gyms in Taiwan, people in Taiwan can use those gyms for free, or at a massively reduced rate.

A windfall of any kind is pretty much universally welcomed by anyone anywhere. Why don't you send your proposal to the PLA and to the CCP Politburo. I'll vouch for you with the new government on Taiwan. All three along with $25 bucks will get you a cafe' mocha at any NYC Starbucks.

Here btw is what the Taiwanese people on Taiwan know will happen to them if the CCP takes control of the island by any means, whether via economics or by military force.

There are 367,749 schools in the CCP China grades 1-12. One school holds as many as 5000 students/pupils. Not every school, most of them. Other schools have 2500 students or 3000 of 'em. About 10% of the 87,749 secondary schools have residential dorms where boys bursting with testosterone are kept separate from the fair maidens of CCP society. (And from society itself.)

The more recently built schools often have a running track with some sort of football (soccer) field. That would be it for sports facilities. However, since CCP students are in school till 5:30 not much goes on outside the building(s). Once the school building is closed, so are the outside facilities. All schools are enclosed by a wall or a wire fence. No evening gatherings of citizens for sports, exercise, running or jogging....no nuthin. The schools and their grounds darken when the sun sets and remain silent till the dawn. CCP won't risk people of the People's Republic getting together in one place on their own for any reason.

Taiwan too can have this under CCP rule.

CCP also provides numerous parks throughout its newly constructed cities or newly constructed extensions of existing urban centers. Nice place for families to go on Sundays, which is their one day off from the standard six-day CCP workweek.

The parks have trees, walkways that lead to ponds with colorful fish one can feed by buying a small bag of very inexpensive fish food on the spot. The many parks near you have benches and little exercise stations with basic outdoor muscle loosening items. There are no playgrounds however at these parks. No football fields, no grandstands, no baseball diamonds, no basketball courts or tennis or badminton courts....no nuthin. Families stay within themselves at the parks which is how the CCP likes it.

I recall when I returned to Thailand after several years in the CCP China. One evening we drove past a park and I was momentarily stunned to see lights blazing and people everywhere in numerous activities on numerous facilities. It's called freedom and the people of Taiwan will keep the freedom they have and will only accept extending those freedoms further. Same for Hong Kong.

Skewed views ....don't know which parts of China you go to as you often seem to see only the worst of CCP governance

Places I have seen and drive by regularly has regular folks in the evenings playing sports , singing birds and kids running around in gardens and taichi

[Usernames]

1996 fast forward to 2015 ....the world have seen the USA embroiled the world in a middle east war over personal oil gains and ill information of some fabricated chemical weapons threat and brought their English cousins reluctantly into a dumb unnecessary war till today affects lives in Iraq as well as the war veterans who were unnecessarily injured and their families

There are endless foreign policies blunders and God forbid if that idiot Trump wins ...the Chinese would be laughing as democracy have ensured you elected a dumber president than Bush

Try sailing past again through China , I believe at this time the commanders on those USA ships are wary and alert and not feeling all necessary powerful like in 1996 when they felt untouchables ....to patrol through without wondering what the Chinese are up to ....

2015 China is wiser and not as weak as one thinks. China have made improvements on their own timeline and continue to blend and engage the world in capitalism and its CCP style of governance ...at the same time it has not necessarily cowered to western standards and has made their style on their own time irritating certain posters who continue to proclaim their demise

Whoever is the next Taiwanese president would continue to engage China ...why refuse relations ? Everyone across the straits is Chinese ....anyone that has been to Xiame or Swatow lately and walked into a Chinese tea house , I am wondering who can differentiate a mainland Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese

I continue to say the next 3 generations of Chinese to come will bury the hatchet and move on ...

The Prognosticator.

Prognosticating the obvious. Except for the omission there are the mainland CCP Chinese and there are the Taiwanese and also the Hong Kongers that reject the CCP China and being called Chinese. That is a hard reality for those who think in terms of a common Chinese race among many races to accept, or even to deal with. But it is the present reality going forward.

The post also omitted certain of the CCP's advances over the past 20 years. So here is one of 'em not many CCPs talk much about, linked to the zine Popular Science.

“Given over a decade’s worth of global technology advances, intensive investment and competent program management, it should come as no surprise that China will be the second nation in the world to start production of stealth fighters,” it said.

“The J-20 will give the People’s Liberation Army Air Force a technological advantage over every other Asian air force. While the J-20 may not be able to supercruise [fly at supersonic speeds without using fuel-thirsty afterburners] with its current Russian AL-31 turbofan engines, its high level of strength, long range and electronic warfare capabilities will make it a very formidable foe for other [Asia air forces] fighters,” it said.

“China is moving forward at breakneck speed,” University of California professor Peter Navarro, a China expert, said.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2015/12/31/2003636095

Presently the 1970s design US F-15 fighter is, in its several technological reincarnations, superior to any fighter the PLA Air Force has. It is the fighter used by the Turkey air force to shoot down the Russian Su 24 fighter which in fact never had a chance. Most Asian air forces have it to include Taiwan and Japan.

With the PLA-AF J-20 stealth fighter prototype soon to go into production, the US will need to consider whether it will provide Taiwan with the F-22 stealth fighter in order to maintain some balance between the two military forces on opposite sides of the Strait.

The $1.8 bn gets Taiwan mostly antimissile systems and armaments that are defensive in nature. If the CCP does begin to produce stealth fighter aircraft using stolen US technology, then the US will need to respond in kind. The course of events as determined by elections in Taiwan and the USA during 2016 would indicate a tit for tat sequence is all but assured.

The next military sale to Taiwan is expected to be many times this relatively small package which itself is the first US arms sale to Taipei since 2011. Pres. Ma Ying-jeou since then has lobbied Washington for a small package out of consideration of his brothers of the CCP and to delay until after the next election, which is now upon us. President Obama has gone ahead with the deal and did in fact announce it on the eve of the election.

DPP immediately welcomed the announcement, KMT said little of it.

The J20 is a flying junkyard. It's underpowered. Its avionics dismally inferior. And the ability of the Chinese to manufacture in number to sufficient tolerances virtually impossible.

That was the same British intelligence who spoke of Japanese zero planes made out of tin plates and kitchen utensils ? Maybe the Chinese are trying to fool the world ?

The Brits got their ass kicked by the Japanese in WWII ..unlike the flashy USA the CCP has no need to be on every national geo program telling people how good their planes are etc etc

The west has got a good history of underestimating their far eastern partners and in every war zone here like in Vietnam got their asses kicked after their initial bombing flux

Like I say the strategy is weak and not Long term Zzzzzz just a few weeks of bombing and no troopers with experience to mop up the resistance

The USA commanders may be smug in having the hardware to initiate a bombing campaign but the tenacity to win ground ....I don't believe that experience is that forthcoming any more

You really want to bring the japanese zero into this?

[Publicus]

What's the Chinese equivalent word for kamakaze...

...anyone....?

Regardless and frankly speaking, the Chinese don't fight because they can't. Just don't see how they could believe Americans would be cowards. Americans get called a lot of things, but cowards is a new one on me.