Koh Tao: Suspects found guilty of murdering British backpackers

[khunsiam]

Amazing how hundreds if not thousands have come on here like blind sheep and done everything in their power to discredit the RTP in this case.

This whole Thaivisa witch hunt was based on nothing more than rumours and innuendos with very few of us disagreeing or at least thinking "Hey wait a minute maybe it was these guys"

Even now when the family who were in the court unlike the members of Thaivisa who haven't got a clue what went on the witch hunt continues.

Talk about Thais not wanting to lose face.........have a look at yourselves and at least admit perhaps you were wrong

What would happen if they take a look at themselves?

The have spent over a year building up their moral identity around the "fact" that Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin are innocent scapegoats, that they have been wrongfully accused of a crime and anyone who disagrees with that are evil people trying to get "the real killers" away with the murders of Hannah Witheridge and David Miller.

Time and time again they have piled up on anyone that didn't buy their narrative, if you didn't believe as they did you were protecting the real murders, a shill, a scumbag, etc, etc... Looking at themselves to see that they've been wrong all along, that they are the ones that have been protecting murderers and rapists and that they are the ones that have wrongfully accused people of horrible crimes?

Not going to happen, the emotional investment is too high for that, they need the two Burmese men to be innocent and they need a scapegoat (AKA "the real killers") to take away their sins, to make it all right, to justify all that they have said and done.

In short, recognizing the reality of the situation and looking back at themselves would reveal that they are what they've been hating all along.

So better to stick their fingers in their ears, repeat "it's all lies, it's all lies!" and run back into the safe space of their echo chamber were they are still the good guys fighting for a noble cause.

A good read: "The Surprisingly Imperfect Science of DNA Testing - How a proven tool may be anything but" http://stories.frontline.org/dna

[T_Dog]

This case is far from over. It will wind its way up to the Thai Supreme Court. If the Appeals Court overturns the Prosecution will appeal and vice versa. Final verdict in about 8 years. My heart goes out the families and I understand their need for closure. Unfortunately, there are so many doubts still out there and a lack of any published credible evidence will keep the doubts active. There are several other cases in Thai history that cause many of us to believe the doubts. Google Sherry Duncan- this case has many similarities to the B2 case.

Likely true as it has garnered so much world attention. So sad though that the two Burmese men miss out on the prime time of their life while the real perps party on in Koh Tao.

[retarius]

If the family are happy with the investigation, then I have to assume that the investigation wasn't as bad as I had believed before, and that maybe the BiB got the right guys.

[AleG]

Oh please. These two men were convicted on nothing at all but circumstantial evidence. -snip-

Let's at least understand that circumstantial evidence is the strongest evidence presented to a court. Let me write a fictitious statement just to use the term in context.

"The circumstances were that his fingerprints were on the window sill and sperm with his DNA was on the bed sheets. The circumstances were that his image was on the CCTV showing him going in and out the window at about the time of the murder and rape. The further circumstances were that his fingerprints were on the bloody knife found by the body and some of that blood had his DNA."

Eyewitness testimony is the weakest because people can lie or just be wrong.

I'm not trying to debate this case or take a side. I just don't want people to think that circumstantial evidence isn't damning.

I do think that perhaps Scotland Yard talked to the family in ways they weren't authorized to do in Thailand. Something convinced the family, who of all people would want the killers caught.

Cheers.

You are very right in regards to circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimony, more often than not culpability of a crime is not ascertained on direct, explicit evidence; and eyewitness accounts can be incredibly unreliable, you may look up the case of Jennifer Thompson and Ronald Cotton, she was raped and while that happened she made a conscious and thorough effort to memorize the face of her attacker... she got it wrong and an innocent man went to jail for years because of it.

Someone many pages ago cited a journalist saying to him that SY had performed their own tests that proved the DNA retrieved from Hannah Witherdige matched that of Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin, granted that's an unverified third hand account but the point I want to make is that if that is the case neither SY or the victim's families would be allowed to divulge that information since UK policy is to not provide any evidence on cases involving the death penalty.

In any case it takes an astounding level of hubris to pretend to know better then they do.

[tribalfusion001]

Iam dugusted, with Britains stance on this case. But of course it is called diplomacy! So now we are lickspittles to the third world.

Millers Brother obviously knows nothing about Thailand or the mafia that control Koh Samui.

I was disgusted thast the prune stood up and read out loud his arogant statement.

I do not wish to criticise them but they uinfortunately deserve it.

I t is blatently obvious to those with only half a brain that this case is a massive shame on the Thai Justice system and them.

They have been mandy pandied by Thai authorities and possibly Brittish diplomats to not rock the boat.

I would like to thank them for helping handing out a Xmas death sentence to two innocent boys and their families.

How could the B2 show remorse if they are innocent, it is beyond belief that greaveing and blind single minded thinking seems to have blinded them into making this statement.

I am disgusted and shocked and hope that these two boys can get a decent defense for an appeal.

Shame on you Mr Miller.

Get off your high horse and get real, shame on you for mocking Mr Miller! I hope you don't have a murdered relative, how was he suppose to react?

[Thaidream]

The term closure has been around for decades but one thing is certain- one does not ever get over it- but the pain eases over time.This is from personal experience. I do know this- that there are many people in prison who are innocent. In this case- I still do not see a viable motive for the B2 to have committed the crime; I still do not see any chain of custody for the DNA; I still do not see an actual confession verified by a real translator instead of a Roti seller who speaks a different Burmese dialect; I see no testimony by anyone at the bar or a private investigator giving a time line of events tracking the deceased and establishing or disproving the involvement of third parties. This is why I and many others have so many doubts. Whoever is guilty needs to be punished- whoever is innocent needs to be freed. This case continues on until a final verdict. My instincts tell me there will be more revealed as the years go on.

[DiscoDan]

Iam dugusted, with Britains stance on this case. But of course it is called diplomacy! So now we are lickspittles to the third world.

Millers Brother obviously knows nothing about Thailand or the mafia that control Koh Samui.

I was disgusted thast the prune stood up and read out loud his arogant statement.

I do not wish to criticise them but they uinfortunately deserve it.

I t is blatently obvious to those with only half a brain that this case is a massive shame on the Thai Justice system and them.

They have been mandy pandied by Thai authorities and possibly Brittish diplomats to not rock the boat.

I would like to thank them for helping handing out a Xmas death sentence to two innocent boys and their families.

How could the B2 show remorse if they are innocent, it is beyond belief that greaveing and blind single minded thinking seems to have blinded them into making this statement.

I am disgusted and shocked and hope that these two boys can get a decent defense for an appeal.

Shame on you Mr Miller.

As you know more than the Millers tell us what evidence was given on the extra day the prosecution asked for, that finished at 1.am

Put up or shut up

[tartempion]

Koh Tao is not my list of places to visit, unfortunately not much more can be said.

[hugh2121]

I've read some appalling stuff on this forum but the comments attacking the British victims' family and alleging that they would agree to anything that they did not really believe to be the truth about the murders of their dear ones and are actually involved in a conspiracy with the Thai Government, the Thai Poilice, the UK Government, the UK Police, the Mafia and Uncle Tom Cobley and all, stoops to the depths lower than the muck on the bottom of my shoe. Those who are citing and supporting Jonathan Head and the BBC, wait to see what happens if they dare make the same allegations against the family directly in the UK that some of the depraved idiots have made here so far.

I would not believe that the families are party to any sort of conspiracy but that they are unaware of the level of corruption which might possibly be involved in this case. They will not be questioning evidence presented by the police and the prosecution as they are used to the legal system in the UK. Those of us who are aware of some of what goes on here are suspicious of conflicting reports. They will accept that CCTV cameras were broken or were simply not recording at the time. They will not question lack of DNA on the murder weapon or the different reports of whose phone was found where. Police torture to extract a confession? Surely not, can't believe it. They are the police! Planted DNA which was independently tested? It was tested by the police. What's ok in England is ok in Asia, isn't it? The families will be desperate for closure to try and come to terms with this and get on with their lives. Apparently they now have this closure even if it is at the expense of 2 boys who could possibly be innocent. One thing I am certain of: if a case was presented to a UK court with evidence similar to this case, it would be thrown out quite unceremoniously and an investigation ordered into the investigation. This, however, is not the UK.

[cgphuket]

I wonder how much a certain mafia daddy paid to make sure his son was not convicted and these two were... Must have been a huge bribe considering the public attention.

[foxteen]

They target poor working migrant and not their own kind....there was a rape bare in mind and not 2 guys did this..i believe was more then 2 and could be a pack of guys. Follow the case guys and you see ..something fish and cover up was going on

[hugh2121]

I feel sorry for their loss.

But this does not excuse their celebrating this verdict.

If they know something that gives reason for their opinion they should let everybody know

- so people can peacefully agree with the verdict

If not they have been brainwashed - or may be even bribed??

The suggestion of a bribe is highly offensive!

Agree with everything else you say, what a shame you spoilt it with your final remark.

[foxteen]

Sadly but jusltly so, the opinions of the families of victims hold no sway in a fair trial.

The family got no choice and just to accept......

[vogie]

Good job RTP. Just because their DNA was not on the "hoe" does not mean they did not use it. Mistakes are made by the police in every single investigation. Some minor and some big but mistakes do not in themselves make the subjects "not guilty". The judges heard all the evidence, the objections, the Defense objections and after all that they decided "Guilty". I agree with the conviction and believe based on what I have heard it is a just decision. The weight of the world was on these judges and they ruled appropriately. Good for them, good for the investigators and sorry for the two defendants. I hope now they get the ultimate sentence. "Death". In my opinion.

Do you think that if the exact same trial and the exact same proceedings happened in the US or the UK then the verdict would have been guilty?

Probably.

Sorry if you are confused as you must be thinking of a different trial. I am referring to the trial where the police claimed they had processed DNA in their little outpost in 12 hours by a trainee linking the B2 to a rape and murder and then couldn't produce it in court or even prove that Hannah was raped, or prove that the heavy alleged murder weapon was used to caused multiple small lacerations.

The same case where 2 suspects were caught on CCTV and said to be "definitely implicated" by the investigating police chief and then it was all forgotten about as soon as the police chief was quickly changed.

The same trial where the police answered "I don't know" to every question of the defense and failed to attend any human rights meetings to discuss the torture of the defendants.

The same trial where the police said they didn't have the budget to print out photos of the crime scene but they didn't waste any time in posting the gory photos on social media.

And so many many more things.

If you really believe that guilt was proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a Western trial then you are deluded. In any just country the B2 would have been freed long ago and sued the hell out of everyone involved and the real killers would have been tried instead.

The fact that they are migrants would affect any trial in the UK. Public opinion in the UK is anti migrant and the result would be the same especially if it was murder against a tourist.

Nonsense.

Oh yesss, this is so well said,....You should have been a lawyer....!! Really , RESPECT !!
Best regards. Off Road Pat

We have enough learned lawyers here on TV already, there is simply no room left on the bench!

[AleG]

Sadly but jusltly so, the opinions of the families of victims hold no sway in a fair trial.

The family got no choice and just to accept......

They were the ones that provided the evidence that proved the phone Wei Phyo took from the crime scene on the night of the murders was David Miller's.

[hugh2121]

The complete lack of law and order/justice is the main reason that I no longer live in Thailand.

I cannot understand why the rest of you are still there.

Some of us are stuck here economically. Sadly.

And many have other reasons too. Mine is that I have 4 rescued dogs who I love dearly. If I were to leave what would happen to them?

[Gunna]

The families seem to be convinced of their guilt (BBC) and they attended the trial. They also, no doubt, had access to information not privy to the rest of us. I would refrain from jumping to conclusions and 'Thai bashing' to be honest. Let's see what happens at the inevitable appeal.

Whereas the BBC reporter, who also attended, seems to have grave doubts

BBC

Miss Witheridge's family said they needed time "to digest the outcome of the trial verdict".

The date of the original DNA analysis was said to have been 17 September, but the report submitted to court was dated 5 October - two days after police had announced a positive match. That unexplained discrepancy inevitably raises suspicion that perhaps the result was manipulated.

Lawyers defending the accused argued DNA from a garden hoe - allegedly used as the murder weapon - did not match samples taken from the men.

Mr Miller said the Thai police investigation was "not the so-called shambles it was made out to be". - he is one of the few ( RTP and a few on here ) that could make that statement.

Edited December 25, 2015 by Gunna

[aussieinthailand]

Would like to see the judges' rationale on how they arrived at the verdict.

Some would say that (rational) is the nic name he gave his new Merc,/new diamond studded gold ring/ new supa dupa amulet,,,,,,,

But yeah would be great to see the judges report and justifications on the guilty charge.

[foxteen]

Sadly but jusltly so, the opinions of the families of victims hold no sway in a fair trial.

The family got no choice and just to accept......

They were the ones that provided the evidence that proved the phone Wei Phyo took from the crime scene on the night of the murders was David Miller's.

well..that's was the cop saying ...the phone can show up anywhere ..who knows can be a set up and they use it

[tribalfusion001]

Zzzzzz, Christmas Day, my thoughts are with the victims!

[wabothai]

No, it appears the evidence of sex supports the case of murder--at least in the eyes of the court.

If DNA from B2 were found inside Ms. Witheridge, it would seem they had sex; which, of course does not prove rape. However, DNA evidence could have been eliminated from the hoe handle and the DNA found may be that of the authorities who handled the hoe afterward, rather than the DNA of the actual murderer.

It is possible B2 had casual consensual sex with Ms. Witheridge and she was later murdered with Mr. Miller by parties whose DNA resides on the hoe.

Of course, all of this only proves one thing; we do not have enough evidence to make a decision.

There was also the possibility the hoe in evidence was not the original murder weapon pictured on the beach. These pics show one having a missing corner (original) while the second, introduced as evidence was intact...

HoeA.jpg HoeB.jpg

This is the last post I make here, this verdict is filling me with intense anger as I believe a terrible injustice was done today and I am ashamed that I have called this place home for so long. That cannot continue for me.

Rather over the top.You must have been living a sheltered life or just here for a short time. Don't you ever read the Thai newspapers?

You might just be half the man that PL is.

[Thaidream]

The phone proves nothing other than someone walking the beach found a phone. If one was a migrant worker who later learned the phone may have belonged to a deceased person who was murdered- you would throw it away . I would be more interested in the phones calling history and times of calls. Too many inconsistencies cause lingering doubts. It is not only Thailand that has police investigatory issues but America as well. There is such a thing as the Innocence Project in which many 'guilty' people in prison are freed later after investigations into cases have found exculpatory evidence or police corruption.

[CharlieH]

It has been said many times......debate/discuss the topic NOT the poster, do not make personal remarks, the entire post will be removed.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[DiscoDan]

The families seem to be convinced of their guilt (BBC) and they attended the trial. They also, no doubt, had access to information not privy to the rest of us. I would refrain from jumping to conclusions and 'Thai bashing' to be honest. Let's see what happens at the inevitable appeal.

Whereas the BBC reporter, who also attended, seems to have grave doubts

BBC

Miss Witheridge's family said they needed time "to digest the outcome of the trial verdict".

The date of the original DNA analysis was said to have been 17 September, but the report submitted to court was dated 5 October - two days after police had announced a positive match. That unexplained discrepancy inevitably raises suspicion that perhaps the result was manipulated.

Lawyers defending the accused argued DNA from a garden hoe - allegedly used as the murder weapon - did not match samples taken from the men.

Mr Miller said the Thai police investigation was "not the so-called shambles it was made out to be". - he is one of the few ( RTP and a few on here ) that could make that statement.

Wow A wrong date they must be innocent,

[cumgranosalum]

^{It's Christmas day.}

^{Spare a thought for the 2 young men in prison in Thailand and how they must feel about the events of the last year or so.}

^{Whatever they have or have not done they are now confronted with a penalty shunned by most developed nations that has been imposed on them after a trial that many peopoe consider nothing more than a farce.}

^{God rest ye merry, gentlemen.}

^{fat chance!}

[DJVillain]

I did read all about this last year and I've read articles from The Telegraph and The Guardian today. The Thai mafia/local kids is hearsay and hasn't been backed up. Without witnesses, this case was always going to be difficult to prove, but the forensics seem to suggest the Burmese are guilty, case over and goodbye!

Forensics taken by a massively incapable Thai police force...

Who is to say that they didn't just swapped the labels on the jars to implicate the Burmese lads?

If you truly believe that the two lads who were sent down yesterday did it and deserve this, I hope you choke on whatever you are eating for Xmas dinner...

[DM07]

I have slept over this “verdict” a night- and I am still upset, angry and sad about it!

With all the inconsistencies, fumbles and mistakes the RTP presented, it is really a shame that anyone could come to the conclusion, that the B2 are guilty, of what they are accused of.

Even more: if you hand out a life- sentence and more so a death- sentence: shouldn’t you be 100% sure?

Better even 101%?

Beyond ANY reasonable doubt?

This case is the best example, why the death penalty should never be applied.

All of you (yes: all! I am looking at you, Mr. Miller, too!) who applaud this shame as “justice being served”: are you sure beyond any reasonable doubt?

Would you see yourself, in a case like this one, in the shoes of the B2 and would now go “Yep! They got me! Bad luck, but hey…justice has been served!”?

Do you even understand, what “reasonable doubt” means?

There are only 3 ways, you could come to the conclusion, that this case is beyond doubt:

a) You know something, the rest of us don’t know! In this case: bring it forth, so the many who are doubting, can be convinced!

b ) You have been played, bought and sold by one of the most ineffective and corrupt justice systems on this planet and you are dumb or ignorant, because if this case is not in shambles: show me one that is!

c) You are a vile, hateful person, with no regards for human life, gloating over the fate of 2 – most likely- innocent men! (this goes to the RTP- fanboys on TV)

I really would like to praise the family of Hannah Witheridge for their sound and cautious statement on this case!

For Mr. Miller, I’d say: I try to understand your pain! Most likely, I never will be able to, as I am not in the situation you are in! I understand, that you want this to be over and done with! I get it!

But the Statement you gave outside of the courthouse yesterday, is regrettable, to say the least!

( unless of course…see point a )

Let me end on a personal note: some of you are just despicable and you should thank your maker, that we are not discussing this in a pub!

Otherwise, I would love to "serve" you some nic ebig glass of Shutup- Juice!

Edited December 25, 2015 by DM07

[kiwikeith]

Iam dugusted, with Britains stance on this case. But of course it is called diplomacy! So now we are lickspittles to the third world.

Millers Brother obviously knows nothing about Thailand or the mafia that control Koh Samui.

I was disgusted thast the prune stood up and read out loud his arogant statement.

I do not wish to criticise them but they uinfortunately deserve it.

I t is blatently obvious to those with only half a brain that this case is a massive shame on the Thai Justice system and them.

They have been mandy pandied by Thai authorities and possibly Brittish diplomats to not rock the boat.

I would like to thank them for helping handing out a Xmas death sentence to two innocent boys and their families.

How could the B2 show remorse if they are innocent, it is beyond belief that greaveing and blind single minded thinking seems to have blinded them into making this statement.

I am disgusted and shocked and hope that these two boys can get a decent defense for an appeal.

Shame on you Mr Miller.

Get off your high horse and get real, shame on you for mocking Mr Miller! I hope you don't have a murdered relative, how was he suppose to react?

I have seen a case where a NZ man was shot dead in Pattaya, the Thai police let the perps get away with it.

It was not until the parents came to Thailand and demanded answers that a money trail was dicovered and the murdered mans GF and her thai BF and his mate who shot the man dead on his bike at beach Rd 2 were arrested and are now in jail for murder.

I would expect the same from the Millers as it is more than obvious to a fool that this case should be thrown out of court and the real mafia perps arested.

So I have no shame in saying shame on them.

Then look at the people that died from being poisened in Chiang Mai, I think 4 NZr's and some britts.

60 minutes sneaked into the Hotel room and took samples that were anylised in labs in NZ that clearly showed a toxic spray that killed these people.

However the hotel owner who cheap charlied and had this crap sprayed to kill bed bugs was never prosecuted as he was high up.

So I'm not on a high horse and I would like to see a clear investigation and if it were my children that were murdered I would be keeping an open mind and demanding answers.

If SY have DNA evidence then why withold it, why let 2 scapegoats die for diplomacy.

If SY have conclusive evidence that implcates the B2 then bring it on, then I will apologise.

[wabothai]

I do hope that the victims families are reading this thread.

They will think that justice has been served, but more than likely to innocent people.

Actually, regardless of what we on this thread might THINK, the family has had more access to evidence and police than any of us here. None of us on this thread have been in the courtroom.

While I've been of the opinion that they got the wrong guys, who are any of us here to say that the family is mistaken. They have followed this case much closer than ANY of us here.

I dare sy the family are mistaken - and I think it's not only me.

If they know so much more and KNOW that the scapegoats are guilty they should let everybody know - and understand.

Then the case could be closed.

The family may have very well gotten a friendly visit from a few english government senior officials. We will never know as we do many other cases. besides, the family can think whatever they want, and I do respect that.

Edited December 25, 2015 by wabothai

[arrowsdawdle]

previously in the nation

The Nation, a prominent English language media outlet expressed the doubts held by many.

"The Samui court can best serve Thailand by showing that justice has been done - and throw the cops botched case out,” it concluded in a hard-hitting editorial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/12066600/British-backpacker-murders-the-killings-that-put-a-countrys-justice-system-on-trial.html

Kudos to them for that!