65K Income for Americans- Gross or Net income

[Eff1n2ret]

After tax doesn't even seem realistic.

Americans won't know for sure about their exact tax liability until they actually file their tax forms in the YEAR AFTER the current year.

That's a fair point. For us Brits (or I guess most of us) it's a little different as our pensions come to us tax deducted. I've just posted my income letter request to the British Embassy this afternoon, and I use net figures because I'm fortunate to be sufficiently above the baseline, and if ever challenged I can back the amount up with the net payments into my bank account.

Previously it seemed to me counterintuitive that the Thai authorities would be happy that applicants' actual incomes were less than what they declared because of the tax deducted before they were received, but on reflection I don't see that we are required to second-guess what they want. Who is to say that when they set the level of 65,000Baht they didn't do so in the expectation that a percentage less than that was what applicants would actually be living on?

[2fishin2]

use whatever works for you

[JLCrab]

The exact wording on thee US Embassy Income Affidavit template is:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ ________________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

It says nothing about Gross or Net -- only what you receive. So you have to ask yourself: Do you receive the Gross or the Net?

[Jingthing]

The exact wording on thee US Embassy Income Affidavit template is:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ ________________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

It says nothing about Gross or Net -- only what you receive. So you have to ask yourself: Do you receive the Gross or the Net?

That language is more ambiguous than you assert and also that language has no direct relation to language in Thai immigration written rules. People often state income based on gross. As in raise the minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour. Always stated in gross. Rental applications asking for income. You state gross.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[JLCrab]

The exact wording on thee US Embassy Income Affidavit template is:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ ________________ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

It says nothing about Gross or Net -- only what you receive. So you have to ask yourself: Do you receive the Gross or the Net?

That language is more ambiguous than you assert and also that language has no direct relation to language in Thai immigration written rules. People often state income based on gross. As in raise the minimum wage to 15 dollars an hour. Always stated in gross. Rental applications asking for income. You state gross.

What I 'receive' is what I can show was deposited into my bank account. Any other interpretation ambiguous or otherwise you may want is up-to-you.

[Jingthing]

I don't agree with that at all. Someone may ask what salary do you receive? Most would say gross amount unless they explicitly ask what is your NET salary. Again, Thai immigration doesn't write the language on that form anyway.

I realize some people will think this is some kind of dodging game. I don't think so. I think if your social security gives you a 1099 form amount, stating that amount complies with the Thai immigration expectations.

Edited January 19, 2016 by Jingthing

[SpokaneAl]

I'm really talking about American social security checks here. They send a check. It has a number. That seems the correct number to state even if you need to pay tax on it later to state and/or federal. There is also the question of Medicare Part withholding. It's as simple or complicated as it actually is. Just looking for correct answers.

I'm not on S.S. yet. Do they withhold state and federal tax as an employer would, or not? I assume if you've opted for a Medicare Part payment option, you never see that money.

The OP states American and saying 65K we know he's talking about RETIREMENT extensions. So it's a reasonable assumption to think he's talking about U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY. But, maybe not.

It is up to the recipient to determine whether or not taxes are withheld. 10% will be withheld if that is what the recipient chooses to do. Also, you are correct Medicare Part B and the like will be withheld from the SS payments.

[Jingthing]

I'm really talking about American social security checks here. They send a check. It has a number. That seems the correct number to state even if you need to pay tax on it later to state and/or federal. There is also the question of Medicare Part withholding. It's as simple or complicated as it actually is. Just looking for correct answers.

I'm not on S.S. yet. Do they withhold state and federal tax as an employer would, or not? I assume if you've opted for a Medicare Part payment option, you never see that money.

The OP states American and saying 65K we know he's talking about RETIREMENT extensions. So it's a reasonable assumption to think he's talking about U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY. But, maybe not.

It is up to the recipient to determine whether or not taxes are withheld. 10% will be withheld if that is what the recipient chooses to do. Also, you are correct Medicare Part B and the like will be withheld from the SS payments.

But the 1099 shows the full benefit regardless of deductions, correct?

[SpokaneAl]

I'm really talking about American social security checks here. They send a check. It has a number. That seems the correct number to state even if you need to pay tax on it later to state and/or federal. There is also the question of Medicare Part withholding. It's as simple or complicated as it actually is. Just looking for correct answers.

I'm not on S.S. yet. Do they withhold state and federal tax as an employer would, or not? I assume if you've opted for a Medicare Part payment option, you never see that money.

The OP states American and saying 65K we know he's talking about RETIREMENT extensions. So it's a reasonable assumption to think he's talking about U.S. SOCIAL SECURITY. But, maybe not.

It is up to the recipient to determine whether or not taxes are withheld. 10% will be withheld if that is what the recipient chooses to do. Also, you are correct Medicare Part B and the like will be withheld from the SS payments.

But the 1099 shows the full benefit regardless of deductions, correct?

Yes, it provides the detail. Edited January 19, 2016 by SpokaneAl

[gk10002000]

It would be difficult for me to explain how some of my income is tax free (municipal bonds, municipal bond funds, Roth IRA distributions) while other parts of my income are taxable, and some income is taxed at different rates. For example I get a lot of dividend income in my regular brokerage account and much of that is what are called qualified dividends, which are taxed at a max rate of 15%. In the USA you really don't know what your net income is for any given year until the end of the tax year when you do your taxes. You often have adjustments as capital losses from previous years may have been carried forward, child support may end, alimony may end (which in general is tax deductible), home mortgage interest and other deductions, You may have a large capital gain from the sale of property or stocks that could increase your taxes a lot, etc.

Granted just stating one single amount may be misleading and while it may > 65,000 a month, you may not have much left over when the dust clears. But there really is no way affirm what your net will be because you will not know in advance.

The next question is, is it OK to state an average? For example, my income is not the exact same every month. While many of my ETFs and Bond funds do pay monthly, most of my stocks pay quarterly dividends. So I plan to just take the average expected total income for the year and divided by 12 (months). I am pretty sure Thai mentality expects a monthly sort of stipend and they might not quite understand the lack of monthly periodicity, but I doubt it will be much of an issue

[mgjackson69]

It would be difficult for me to explain how some of my income is tax free (municipal bonds, municipal bond funds, Roth IRA distributions) while other parts of my income are taxable, and some income is taxed at different rates. For example I get a lot of dividend income in my regular brokerage account and much of that is what are called qualified dividends, which are taxed at a max rate of 15%. In the USA you really don't know what your net income is for any given year until the end of the tax year when you do your taxes. You often have adjustments as capital losses from previous years may have been carried forward, child support may end, alimony may end (which in general is tax deductible), home mortgage interest and other deductions, You may have a large capital gain from the sale of property or stocks that could increase your taxes a lot, etc.

Granted just stating one single amount may be misleading and while it may > 65,000 a month, you may not have much left over when the dust clears. But there really is no way affirm what your net will be because you will not know in advance.

The next question is, is it OK to state an average? For example, my income is not the exact same every month. While many of my ETFs and Bond funds do pay monthly, most of my stocks pay quarterly dividends. So I plan to just take the average expected total income for the year and divided by 12 (months). I am pretty sure Thai mentality expects a monthly sort of stipend and they might not quite understand the lack of monthly periodicity, but I doubt it will be much of an issue

Until someone can definitively point to a source that exactly defines "income" as viewed by Thai Immigration, as long as you are not overstating your income, use whatever figure works for you, and is easily supported by documentation (pay stubs, Social Security statements, periodic bank deposits, etc).

[JLCrab]

This is really all moot point until the IMM folks processing your retirement extension might ask you for corroborating documents for the amount claimed on your income affidavit. Then, if your Gross amount is in excess of 65K but your Net amount is less then 65K, the quandary may begin.

[Jingthing]

This is really all moot point until the IMM folks processing your retirement extension might ask you for corroborating documents for the amount claimed on your income affidavit. Then, if your Gross amount is in excess of 65K but your Net amount is less then 65K, the quandary may begin.

True but then only if they won't accept government documents such as a print out of your social security benefit amount.

[JLCrab]

This is really all moot point until the IMM folks processing your retirement extension might ask you for corroborating documents for the amount claimed on your income affidavit. Then, if your Gross amount is in excess of 65K but your Net amount is less then 65K, the quandary may begin.

True but then only if they won't accept government documents such as a print out of your social security benefit amount.

Not everyone receives their income from the government.

And an IMM officer could easily say that we are only interested in the amount of income that you have available to spend every month.

Edited January 20, 2016 by JLCrab

[Jingthing]

See OP. Probably about pension.

[JDGRUEN]

It would be the retirement visa. I believe the US embassy has you swear you can meet the requirement then issues the affidavit. I've read some have been asked to show proof when completing visa or checking in for the 90 day. I want no problems and plan on covering all the bases.

The US embassy does not have you "swear that you can meet the requirement".

You fill out the Income Statement form, which is personal information and an amount of income per month. By signing per the wording on the form you are attesting that the information is correct. The embassy is witnessing your signature.

I was asked by the U.S. Embassy lady - if I knew the ramifications of a false statement and was what I entered on the form true... a bit different than just witnessing a signature...

[mgjackson69]

It would be the retirement visa. I believe the US embassy has you swear you can meet the requirement then issues the affidavit. I've read some have been asked to show proof when completing visa or checking in for the 90 day. I want no problems and plan on covering all the bases.

The US embassy does not have you "swear that you can meet the requirement".

You fill out the Income Statement form, which is personal information and an amount of income per month. By signing per the wording on the form you are attesting that the information is correct. The embassy is witnessing your signature.

I was asked by the U.S. Embassy lady - if I knew the ramifications of a false statement and was what I entered on the form true... a bit different than just witnessing a signature...

What you attest to on the paper by signing and what the Notary Public asks you to attest to are the same thing.

You are correct, they do ask you "you attest that what is on the form is true" (paraphrasing, I forget the exact verbiage).

The section where the Notary Public (Consular Associate) signs and dates has the verbiage "Subscribed and sworn to before me this" then has the space for the date and the Consular Associate signature.

That person is doing nothing to confirm what you said is true, only that you said it is true. The same as your signature on that form does.

[Rhys]

what a royal pain.....this is..

[2fishin2]

^^ The pain is what people make it out to be i.e. 4 pages of banter for something so simple, its laughable. Always use GROSS income on questions of income unless specifically asked for net.

[Pib]

I would expect immigration uses gross pay. Net pay can be affected by so, so many things, both controlled or not controlled by the individuals.

[JLCrab]

A simple question for IMM to ask would be: How much do you actually have to spend each month based on the number provided on your affidavit?

[mgjackson69]

^^ The pain is what people make it out to be i.e. 4 pages of banter for something so simple, its laughable. Always use GROSS income on questions of income unless specifically asked for net.

What are you basing that assumption on?

[bkk6060]

Does it matter net or gross?

At that low of income does he pay taxes anyway?

[mogandave]

Does it matter net or gross?

At that low of income does he pay taxes anyway?

No income taxes