Los Ranked Number 3 For Murders

[nostrel]

Getting away from crime?

For those of us who are non Thai, we all have our individual reasons for staying here, as we all had reasons for having left our homes. For many, I am sure, it is the general calm that this country suffuses in its inhabitants and the lack of stress compared to the West. When you stop making eye contact with the man in the street, when you start fortressing your house doors with cumbersome steel locks, and when the local news is more frightening than anything Hollywood could ever muster; well, maybe it's time to get out.

man killed after drunken argument with friend

The Land of Smiles: Down the escape shute we whizzed and came out here, in this, our Utopian Neverland that is Thailand. Not only the pot at the end of the rainbow for an avid culturist and geographical voyeur. On top of that Thailand is a homely, friendly, cordial refuge with lots of glorious sunshine and eclectic entertainment. With positive 'jai yen' action and a zero tolerance to losing your head in public, we have found ourselves cloistered in a womblike peacefulness and can forget about those past fears of getting our heads pulped because we are vulnerable, have the wrong accent, or support the wrong religion/football team.

So it came as a surprise when I found out that we actually lived in one of the most dangerous countries in the world when it comes to crime.

Consider how unusual it is to see a street fight here. Despite the obvious class disparity, people seem to get along pretty well without jealousy and resentment of those with more material wealth. On top of that, so many Thai males seem so mild mannered; and the women, well, it's hard to imagine the Citylife staff (many lasses) blemishing their untainted and ruthlessly clean record of virtue. Yet Chiang Mai residents listen up, because statistically you may have exited a reasonably safe country and landed in a virtual Wild West saloon.

Some stats for you first: Number of deaths by firearms throughout the world: 1. No surprise is South Africa with just over 31,000 in the two year study. 2. Columbia with almost 22,000 (again, this is not surprising.) Number three . . . Well you'd think Russia, USA, China or India. They all have large populations and high crime rates. But no, number three is Thailand, even with the omnipresent jai yen big brother it managed to reach 20,032 murders by firearm in two years. It's worth noting though, that non firearm murder rates see Thailand ranked at 8th in the world with 5,140 murders, USA, 6th with over 12,000 and India topping the charts with over 37,000. It's also worth noting that some of the stats might be unreliable in countries that have inferior law enforcement and governments that don't have the resources to collect statistical figures. These facts were taken from the Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention). By the way, there's a heavy drop off for fourth place in the murder firearm rate, which is the USA with only 8,259 deaths, and when you consider death per capita, Thailand is much, much higher than the US.

jealous boyfriend kills ex-lover because she wanted to break up

You can't even blame the media and popular culture for the violence: there are few gangster movies in Thailand, and guns are hilariously censored out. Even the rap and hip hop singers here don't mention killing, violence, bitches and crack . . . they talk about how much they love their mums! The murder with firearm rate poses an irony few appear to see, in that the Thai tourism authority's marketing ploy extols the people's innate cultural kindness and warm heartedness ad nauseam. We are all too familiar with the ostensible good nature of the people, because it is repeated to us like a mantra. So with this irony in mind, I went in search of the main factors and reasons for the apparent cultural aberration.

It is quite disturbing to find out how many people die as a result of violent conduct world wide. The World Health Organisation (WHO) has this to say about our feisty sphere. "The death and disability caused by violence makes it one of the leading public health issues of our time. Violence is among the leading causes of death for people aged 15-44 years of age, accounting for 14% of deaths among males and 7% of deaths among females. On an average day, 1,424 people are killed in acts of homicide, almost one person every minute." They also pointed out that the cost of violence can take up as much as 5% of some country's GDPs.

Violence: nature or nurture?

Why is Thailand ranked so high? Where in Thailand are these shootings and murders happening? Looking at the facts, it is more than astonishing that such a small country with such a seemingly benign reputation can have so many murders. Are Thai people more violent? Is it suppressed anger, a result from all that 'not losing face' and respect of elders? Dr Gro Harlem Brundtland of the WHO, said that violent conduct is not merely instinctual reaction, but it is imbedded in society, in our values and culture. She added, "Violence is a complex problem related to patterns of thought and behaviour that are shaped by a multitude of forces within our families and communities, forces that can also transcend national borders."

We all know that most Thais are Buddhists, a religion that condemns violence on all levels. You could go as far as to say that we live in an almost pacifistic society. Or at least, this is the myopic view. But if you pick up the local newspaper just about any day of the week you'll find multiple murders. As I write this article, today's papers feature a photograph of a twenty year old dead girl - shot by her boyfriend because she wanted to break up with him. The most disconcerting detail is the newspaper's sympathy towards the man because he had cried and gone straight to the cops feeling contrite.

Music company workers shot after asking shop owners for lisence to sell company products

Recently The Nation featured the sentencing of Pannada Laoruang, 38, who had married a British man called Toby Charnaud. They bought a bar and had a kid together; then later they divorced after Charnaud couldn't cope with his wife's gambling and drinking. Subsequently he was killed by five of her male relatives. "The men tried to shoot Charnaud but the gun failed to work so they beat him to death with an iron bar and burned his body on a stack of charcoal . . . they said they were provoked because he interrupted their whisky drinking," said The Nation. It is thought that Laoruang hired the men to kill Charnaud for his cash.

Missing farang and dubious suicides

I don't have the numbers, yet I have been assured this is not specious: apparently the amount of farang deaths in Pattaya is inordinately high; scores of men are falling from their balconies and crashing into lamp posts. Luckily most have considerable wealth to leave behind for their grieving wives and elegiac in-laws. Earlier I had spoken with Andrew Drummond, a British journalist who has been in Thailand for 20 years and is presently correspondent for The Times, UK. "A Westerner dies every week in Pattaya, not all murders of course. There are a lot of suicides, I suppose it's the kind of lifestyle some people live down there," he told me. "But what about these mysterious deaths I've been hearing about, is that just myth?" Without hesitation he answered, "No, there have been a number of mysterious deaths, a while back quite a few men, at different times, were found suffocated with plastic bags on their heads. The police deduced that it was suicide, you have to ask yourself, who commits suicide in such a way? In fact, one of the men had had his hands tied, too." We had earlier talked about the high murder rate. "One of the reasons is that Thai people don't have faith in their own system and so often take the law into their own hands. They have a distinct lack of confidence in their police force." He also suspected that the fact that the police and forensics departments were combined was detrimental to this lack of confidence. "It has a dramatic effect because the police can do anything with a DNA sample. Thailand was also going to introduce the DSI, which would have been similar to the American FBI, but it never happened."

On the same day as my conversation with Drummond, Gary Jones, an imprisoned Brit in Bang Kwang jail (Bangkok Hilton), had written to me about the police officer who horrifically shot a tourist couple dead in Kanchanaburi last year. "Pol. Sgt. Somchai Wisetsingh, murderer of Adam Lloyd and Vanessa Arscott," he wrote, "openly brags to the inmates, 'If I had had any sense, I would have emptied some sugar into the slut's handbag'". Somchai is now doing time in the notorious jail. You might hope this lovely decantation of his only regret the night of the murders does not reflect the police's stringent hiring policy.

Drummond continued to expand on the problems; "recently a New Zealander was shot to death in broad daylight; his girlfriend had hired a hit man." When I asked him for a definitive reason behind high amount of murders, he told me, "It is extremely difficult to give an exact reason, there are many factors. Life is definitely cheaper here. People die over smaller matters like land disputes, look at Thaksin's war on drugs when 2,500 people were murdered. It's hard to say, people really should think more about the consequences of their actions."

Back to the ironies: Drummond ended the conversation by telling me, "Some of the parents of murdered kids/backpackers in Thailand still said they were very fond of the country and its people."

What the police think

I had the chance to talk to Police Colonel Saravoot Chandrapprasert whilst labouring in my confusion on Thailand's mostly unheard of murder problem. One very salient point he made was this, "You see, people kill each other over very small matters. Just an argument, that's it and bang. Then one person dies and the other spends their life in jail." He went on to tell me that internecine encounters such as these are extremely common in Thailand. Saravoot, is the investigation centre superintendent of Chiang Mai and the north. I told him of my recently gleaned facts, feeling inexplicably proud of our bronze medal for murder and I asked him what he thought about Thailand's high murder rate. He explained, "Firstly, it's not so difficult to get a gun. Guns are smuggled in from neighbouring countries and it is very difficult to stop this. Also, there have been many wars in the past and guns still remain in the area." "What about buying a gun, if I want a gun can I buy one?" I asked. "No you can't. First you must have a responsible position in society and then you must apply for one which then has to be certified by the district chief. You could get one on the black market, but you'd have to know someone; it would cost anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000 baht for a gun, most of the black market guns are shotguns."

"So, I have heard of the Thai mafia, what is that? Who are they?" The colonel had lived in the states for many years and his reply was testament to his learned lexicon, "There is no real mafia, it just means someone with clout." In response to my avid questioning we went on and off the record a number of times and he informed me of some interesting facts. Apparently, the 10,000 baht to have a Thai and 50,000 to have a foreigner knocked-off is urban myth. Even though he did say hit men existed, they were usually friends of powerful people rather than pay-rolled killers. He said that very few farang get murdered in the north but that Pattaya was definitely the most dangerous place to live for foreigners. Then he added, "you see in Thailand there's no 1, 2, 3. There's only a 3. In some countries you have a shouting match, then you have a fight and sometimes it goes to murder. Here, you can get into an argument and the next thing you know you have been shot." His advice, "Don't get into arguments." "Alcohol is to blame much of the time; people drink and they get violent and do something stupid. Not long ago a group of youths in Chiang Mai attacked a boy in a telephone box, they hacked him to death with swords. They had no reason, they didn't know him; they were drunk and wanted to make a point." This correlates with what I had earlier found on the WHO website while reading a diagnosis of violence, "Research shows that drunkenness is one of the situational factors found to precipitate violence." And you may also take on board another stat: Thailand is ranked 5th in the world for alcohol consumption! Per capita that is, and seeing as many females abstain, that puts a lot of pressure on the male caputs. How many of us walk down the streets only to be stumbled upon by old men with tattered faces, stinking of booze and looking like they have a week to live? Alcoholism is ubiquitous in Thailand. Contrary to what most people believe, it is not ya ba consumption (low grade amphetamine) that is cause to be most concerned about.

Looking at the statistics above, you can see that only seventy-five homicides occured in two and a half months. But according to the UN statistics, 21,000 firearm murders -in two years, country wide equals about 30 a day. Something wasn't right. I asked the colonel where he thought all these murders were taking place. "There are much higher rates for murder in other regions," he replied, "We have problems in the south, and there are also many murders among minority groups - labourers coming from different countries who live in poverty. They have an argument, and well, life is cheap. They think nothing of killing each other. Only last night two men had an argument and the man stabbed his friend in the head. He died. Whenever I ask the murderers if it was worth it, to now spend all their life in jail, they always say no and they don't know why they did it. They are often drunk when the crime takes place." "OK," I said, feeling I was getting to the point, "but why Thailand? Are Thai people seemingly more violent than say, Americans? Thailand is just below Columbia in the stats and Columbia is renowned for violence, corruption and drug cartels." "To be honest, I don't know. There are many reasons and it's difficult to say. People don't like losing face, and it's not so difficult to get a gun if you know the right people. These are main factors. This shouldn't worry foreigners, this happens in groups that are not concerned with foreigners." "Do you carry a gun?" "Yes, I do. I have to." "So then you feel it's a dangerous place." "Well people expect me to uphold the law and protect them; to do this I have to be armed."

Mistress kills her lover

Longevity and sour fruit

He did tell me that crime had decreased from three years ago, which is closer to the time the study was done. "I've lived in New York, which is a dangerous place, but often people have a fight and that's it. Here an argument often leads straight to weapons." "And what about corruption?" Asking a cop about corruption felt quite uncomfortable - a bit like asking my dad about sex. He smiled and said, "There are some bad apples on every tree, they use power the wrong way. That happens everywhere."

And so we come to the end; that terminal juncture where we can not say anymore, because we just don't know. And the conclusion, well, our surrogate home is full of surprises and it's probably prudent to walk out of any arguments we become embroiled in. As detective Saravoot says, "There is no one or two." It's straight down to that finicky business of mortality. Three. Probably not a good idea to marry poor girls working in bars, for the most part they only want your money and sometimes they have to cross over your dead body to get it. Jai yen must work on different levels for it to work at all, if you are no longer a proponent when you broach a matter and have an argument or get into a car, then it's a waste of time clouding your true feelings in other situations.

If you are wondering about the title to this piece, it's a song by Cat Stevens and it goes like this, "I'm gonna get me a gun, and all the people who put me down, better get ready to run!. . ."

by James Austin Farrell

from chiangmainews

[LaoPo]

LaoPo

[johnnyk]

Waste of bandwidth.

A paragraph was enough to make the point.

[qualtrough]

Not much new here to anyone paying any attention. I will say that the nature of the violence is somewhat different than back home (USA) in that there is much less random violence or stranger on stranger violence. In other words, you generally (especially a foreigner) have to go out of your way to get in trouble here. Thais are rarely 'in your face' as is more common back home. Drinking to excess and hanging out with those who do can be a bad idea, but then again, with all the bargoing and whoring done by farangs and other visitors it is amazing that there aren't more crime victims. One final thought. I can't really think of any 'dangerous' parts of Bangkok that I would avoid, whereas any American from a big city could easily tell you which parts of their city are safe and which are not so safe, some even in daytime. Example: I was in Venice Beach a few weeks back and wanted to walk back from the Beach to the main road to catch a bus. Bad idea according to the local residents I was with, who insisted on driving me up to the bus stop-which was not in a very reassuring location.

[GuestHouse]

You don't need surveys to find this out, nor do you need to rely on your own peceptions, which will no doubt let you down. Just ask your Thai wife/girlfriend, she'll tell you about how dangerous/safe Thailand is.

[roamer]

Interesting the quotes attributed to Andrew Drummond, Times Correspondent. I enjoyed a completely drunken evening with him one night in K'buri during some interminable legal delays when the trial was going nowhere. We stumbled out of various bars in an ever increasing state of inebriation until at least 3am, despite this we were'nt mugged stabbed or shot. In many places in the UK or USA a safe homecoming would have been in doubt.

Bad things happen everywhere but you have to look harder for them in LOS.

[britmaveric]

Far more dangerous places in the world than LOS.

[Neeranam]

You don't need surveys to find this out

Well you do if you live in the tourist areas.

Interesting article and well written - cheers

Edited October 17, 2006 by Neeranam

[englishoak]

[davethailand]

Ever get the feeling that you've heard this before?

[cclub75]

Brillant article, albeit a bit too long.

And lack of sources. I'm going to make some googling to find out.

In my opinion, there might be a trap with the definition of "murder by firearm", and some date issue.

The XXXX so called "drug trafickers", killed by gunshot in Thailand on Thaksin's order, would they go into those statistics ?

And what about, the people killed in the south ? Is it murder ? Is it terrorism ? Extrajudicial killings ?

[Singha Gold]

Interesting piece, thanks. I hadn't realised Pattaya was quite the hot-bed this makes it out to be.

[cclub75]

The PDF with the study :

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/crime_cicp_survey_seventh.html

The stats cover 1998, 1999 and 2000 for the seventh study.

By country.

Very, very interesting... !

And we have too the stats for 1995, 1996 and 1997 in the fifth and sixth study.

However.... nothing is simple with Thailand... Their "total homicides by firearms" is HIGHER (23 000) than "total homicides completed"(5500) + "total homicides attempted" (4700)... and the non intentional are only 300 (for 1998).

Mai ko chai !

Edited October 17, 2006 by cclub75

[chownah]

Yes, Yes!!!!! It is really dangerous here!!! You should leave! It is a terribly awful place here...better to not come here at all!!! Especially up here in the northern part of Thailand.....I'm fearful of even leaving my house in the morning and I'm fearful of re-entering it at night just wondering what evil lurker might have gained entry and awaits my return!!!

Yes, Yes!!! Don't waste a day in this perilous place....leave now...or if you haven't arrived here yet....don't come!!!

Chownah

[qualtrough]

Yes, Yes!!!!! It is really dangerous here!!! You should leave! It is a terribly awful place here...better to not come here at all!!! Especially up here in the northern part of Thailand.....I'm fearful of even leaving my house in the morning and I'm fearful of re-entering it at night just wondering what evil lurker might have gained entry and awaits my return!!!

Yes, Yes!!! Don't waste a day in this perilous place....leave now...or if you haven't arrived here yet....don't come!!!

Chownah

I second Chownah's warning. If you are considering coming please don't--it is far too dangerous. And if you are already here you had best pick up stakes and leave if you know what's good for you. Only careless fools would live here, or the incredibly brave (not sure which category I fall under).

P.S. If you are leaving please be sure to post the goods you are not taking with you in the classified ad section of the forum--thank you.

[simon43]

As an aside, I read in a recent interview with a senior staff member from Patong Hospital that most patients are there due to road accidents, (no surprise..), followed closely by people with gunshot wounds....

Simon

[LaoPo]

And if you are already here .......................................

If.....you're already in Thailand.........:

it's best to wear one of those.....it's quite safe, but...no guarantee of course!

LaoPo

[alexth]

Far more dangerous places in the world than LOS.

Yeah, apparently 2 based on this ranking To be honest with you, I've never had problems here. I haven't been robbed, I haven't been attacked...methinks that if one knows how to watch his back and use his common sense he/she wouldn't have a thing to worry about

[Thaiboxer]

I feel safer in Bangkok and the rest of Thailand that I would in many places in the US. There are a lot of murders here no doubt, but those victims usually did something to get themselves into trouble with the wrong people. Those "suicides" involving farangs in Pattaya are most likely the result of some scam or drug deal gone sour.

[suiging]

What's difficult to understand ? The surrounding countries to the LOS are either at war now or have been within a generation. These wars have left a legacy of violence to end arguments, couple this with poor education and it's a volotile mix. These people are in the LOS in considerable numbers to feed the need for cheap labour as LOS picks itself up and goes forward in the world. The casual violence displayed by these new boys has an affect on our own rural poor, as does their exposure to the wealth in towns like Patters when they are brought in to help with the building boom. The figures come from this section of soceity as a whole, and as many on here have said, if you don't mix with them and go out of your way to be civil, LOS in reality for Farangs should be a long way down that list in terms of real danger.

[slackula]

Thanks Tolstoy.

[Tomissan]

Far more dangerous places in the world than LOS.

Yeah, apparently 2 based on this ranking To be honest with you, I've never had problems here. I haven't been robbed, I haven't been attacked...methinks that if one knows how to watch his back and use his common sense he/she wouldn't have a thing to worry about

In nearly 20 years of living in the Kingdom I've never been attacked, hit, shot, etc., by a Thai.

I have, however, been sucker punched by a farang requiring several stitches and left me a bit deformed for life. Oh, (forgot), my house was broken into once about 17 years ago by a heroin addict (Thai) who only took my favorite Buck knife...

One more thing I'd like to add..After living all around the Kingdom, Isaan is by far the safest place to live. (With the exception of a lot of idiots behind the wheel, both Thai & Farang)

Of course this is just my opinion.

Informative post Nostrel, thanx...

Edited October 18, 2006 by Tomissan

[michael804]

Thanks nostrel

for sharing Farrell's report.

I found it interesting.

As an american who plans to visit los in

the coming months, i have been reading

everything i can get my hands on.

(filtering out worthless posts such as #14 & #15 of this thread)

I may be mistaken,,, but it seems that those who do best as

farangs in los are the ones who never talk back to natives,

but instead, take thier frustrations out on this board (& others)

I will not know until i see it for myself, but if prejudice, loathing,

double-pricing ,& smugness is the order of the day for foreigners

in thailand... i could never, ever, live like that long term.

Some can... not me.

I cannot take disrespect lying down, so this may not be the place

for me to even visit.

We will see...

Thanks for constructive knowledge input.

[Diablo Bob]

Thanks nostrel

for sharing Farrell's report.

I found it interesting.

As an american who plans to visit los in

the coming months, i have been reading

everything i can get my hands on.

(filtering out worthless posts such as #14 & #15 of this thread)

I may be mistaken,,, but it seems that those who do best as

farangs in los are the ones who never talk back to natives,

but instead, take thier frustrations out on this board (& others)

I will not know until i see it for myself, but if prejudice, loathing,

double-pricing ,& smugness is the order of the day for foreigners

in thailand... i could never, ever, live like that long term.

Some can... not me.

I cannot take disrespect lying down, so this may not be the place

for me to even visit.

We will see...

Thanks for constructive knowledge input.

Micheal,

Before you believe ChickenLittle do a little investigating...... The replies that you deem worthless are nothing more than the truth! If you believe ChickenLittle than by all means cancel your ticket from LAX, because it it to dangerous here in the LOS.

Remember, The figures don't lie, but lyers can figure....... You can take any data and present it in such a way as to satisfy any argument.

Where is the data? No data, then you have just another ChickenLittle espousing his point of view. Does any of the purported data come from the last 2 years, if so you are including all the deaths in the South which really is not representative of the rest of the country.

My experience has been quite different from what ChickenLittle's article implies, and I have had many years of experience.

[mijan24]

Agree with earlier sentiments but if you are leaving and I for one don't blame you - please do not clog up the classifieds just send/give your unwanted treasures to myself I will see the needy (read myself) benefit from your generosity.

Back on topic - If Thailand ranks 3rd where does Brazil with 55000 murders a year rank ???

[dgoz]

You don't need surveys to find this out

Well you do if you live in the tourist areas.

Interesting article and well written - cheers

Nothing worse than reading an article written by someone who is trying to show off their writing skills.

The whole message could've been explained in a paragraph or two.

[PeaceBlondie]

Well, it depends where you go. I avoid drunks and drinking places. I avoid dark alleys, strange run-down neighborhoods, people who only speak Thai, and farang whom I don't like. I haven't been in a fight for over 50 years, and I don't threaten people. I live dangerously, frequent persons of nighttime employment, drive motorcycles too fast, etc., but I don't get into arguments.

It reminds me of the statistics that said most motorcycle deaths in the USA were caused when drunk, without a helmet, without a motorcycle license, or on Harleys. Since none of those applied to me, I didn't die on a bike.

Thailand isn't as safe as staying in a bedsit in Bournemouth or being holed up in a studio apartment in Topeka, Kansas.

[Insight]

I thought it was a pretty good read, especially the conversation with the cop.

Only comment I'll add is once you cross the line with a Thai, there's also no going back. Grudges are held and forgiveness is very hard to find.

It's generally much more difficult to cross that line, but money issues do help close the gap a bit.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Insight

[grapetable]

I thought it was a well written and articulated piece. Much better than the majority of moronic negative drivel found on this forum.

[qualtrough]

Well, it depends where you go. I avoid drunks and drinking places. I avoid dark alleys, strange run-down neighborhoods, people who only speak Thai, and farang whom I don't like.

Peaceblondie-Why do you avoid people who only speak Thai? As a general rule I prefer Thais who speak only Thai. When you deal with a Thai who speaks English well they have often absorbed a lot more of the foreign culture than the language, which often is not a good thing IMHO. Different strokes for different folks.

BTW, I have to go down to Lad Prao and then Yawaraj this afternoon. Anybody know if those parts of Bangkok are safe??

Edited October 18, 2006 by qualtrough