Landlord refuses to report me to IMMI / doesn't even own the Condo

[THAILIBAN]

Hi all.

first I wasn't sure if I should post this on the IMMI board or on the real estates board, as actually there are two different questions.

I already live at that Condo since quite some time. My landlords r a Thai female / European male couple. Not the nicest folks on earth, to be honest. She is a professor at a University, educated but a very aggressive and self-opinionated person.

The thing is that they do not report me to local Immigration (Bangkok). They simply refuse to acknowledge that such a rule does even exist. As I am on a multiple entry non-immi Visa and have to leave the country every 90 days anyway, the 90-day-reporting rule does not apply.

What can happen to THEM and to ME ? I believe I am safe as I never stay in the country for longer than 90 days. But what if one day some IMMI officers show up at my place ? what can happen to my landlord ? will they be fined and how much ? I am staying at that place a lot longer than one year already. But planning to terminate the contract and look for a smaller unit. But it could happen that it gets nasty upon moving out so I wanna be prepared for anything.

The next thing (which actually more belongs to the REAL ESTATE board) is - the European guy signed the contract and is the person who rents out the Condo. But he actually does not even own it - his wife owns it. I asked for a copy of the Tabien Baan several times and I need proof of address too for several reasons, but to no avail. Again: What can happen to the European guy if he rents out a place he does not actually own ? maybe they do so because his wife would have to pay taxes ?

Any expert advice would be appreciated

Edited February 17, 2016 by THAILIBAN

[KMartinHandyman]

I've heard of an ask the lawyer feature in Thai Visa.

You did say expert.

[Jdietz]

You just report your address when needed (if you stay longer than 90 days)

They reporting you or not is their problem which may or may not be acted upon (most likely not) and will not affect you in any way.

After you reported your address you can also ask for a proof of residence at immigration, which will be sent to your home.

[steve187]

don't worry about something that isn't worth the worrying

[Maestro]

I suggest you submit the TM.30 in your own name as you are the house master, ie the chief possessor of the condo in your capacity as the tenant, as defined in section 4 of the Immigration Act. Below your signature on the form, underline or encircle the word POSSESSOR.

[Maestro]

The next thing (which actually more belongs to the REAL ESTATE board) is - the European guy signed the contract and is the person who rents out the Condo. But he actually does not even own it - his wife owns it. I asked for a copy of the Tabien Baan several times and I need proof of address too for several reasons, but to no avail. Again: What can happen to the European guy if he rents out a place he does not actually own ? maybe they do so because his wife would have to pay taxes ?

There is nothing illegal about the husband signing the rental agreement for a condominium the title deed for which is in his wife's name.

The house registration book for the condo or a copy of it does not serve as proof of your address. Depending on what you need this proof for, the rental contract may be acceptable, otherwise you could go with it to the local district office and perhaps get a residence certificate from them. Another possibility is that the Condominium Juristic Person Manager could give a letter confirming that you live at that address as a tenant, again on the basis of your rental agreement.

For some purposes, invoices for telephone, electricity, internet services, etc are good for proof of address.

[Denim]

Seriously ....... If you are genuinely concerned and your landlord will not co operate then move to alternative accommodation. In reality these things are seldom checked on but sometimes they are so if you are and want to feel safe go somewhere that will play by ear he rulebook.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Denim

[Maestro]

The Pattaya immigration office started to act strangely recently, requesting documents like signed copies of the owner's ID card or passport, house registration book and, if he is a foreigner, his work permit, but I believe the Bangkok office is not asking for any of these, at least not at present.

Denim, it is generally a good idea to get information in advance, along the lines of "hope for the best, prepare for the worst".

I would recommend that when signing a rental contract a tenant should always get a copy of documents relating to the owner's or lessor's identity and address, and the lessor should get a copy of a document relating to the tenants identity. It would not be unreasonable for the tenant to ask at the same time also for a copy of a document evidencing the lessor's ownership or his right to grant a lease for the property. Just imaging paying rent to somebody and suddenly the real owner turns up and sues you for compensation for the use of his condo.

[Time Traveller]

Next time don't rent a place without a copy of their Id and house registration at the time you sign the lease. Without those documents you really have no proof the person you are renting from is the owner or their representative

[Inn Between]

Is there a connection between the 90 reporting records and TM30 requirement? What I'm getting at is that the last time I went to do a 90-day report, I was pleasantly surprised to avoid any paperwork. I showed the guy my passport at the entrance (Jomtien) and asked for a 90-day form, but he gave me a number and told me it wasn't necessary because I was in the computer system. Does that mean I won't need a TM30 in April when I have to extend my non-Imm O (retirement) visa?

[AlQaholic]

Your landlord face a penalty fine (can't remember how much, maybe 2000 or 5000 baht) for not reporting you, that's all, if anyone ever bothers to check.

[Liquorice]

Is there a connection between the 90 reporting records and TM30 requirement? What I'm getting at is that the last time I went to do a 90-day report, I was pleasantly surprised to avoid any paperwork. I showed the guy my passport at the entrance (Jomtien) and asked for a 90-day form, but he gave me a number and told me it wasn't necessary because I was in the computer system. Does that mean I won't need a TM30 in April when I have to extend my non-Imm O (retirement) visa?

You cannot extend a Visa and there is no such thing as a 'retirement' Visa.

You are extending your permission to stay based on retirement at your local Immigration office.

It is not a Visa, it is a 'Permit'

As for a TM30, have you already submitted one?

Theoretically you should only complete this form once when take up residence, or changing address, however some Immigration offices request a new submission if you leave the Country and re enter to take up the same residence. You should ask your local Imm office what their requirements are to comply with reporting an alien residing at a particular residence.

[stgrhe]

OP, you are actually oblige to report your address within 24 hrs from your arrival in Thailand. Reference Immigration Act Section 37.3:

"Section 37: An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following:

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty–four hours from the time of arrival."

[IMA_FARANG]

Are you renting the condo from them.

Probably they will not report you as residing there because the Landlord is not reporting the income they receive for your rent to the appropriate Thai tax authorities.

By ding this they are violating Thai tax laws.

But that is not your problem, it is their problem and by failing to report the income they receive for your rental .

they can be fined

[Autonuaq]

you have to report anyhow yourself.

the land lord if refuses that is not your problem at all.

Landlord his problems and Landlord will probably get a fine of 20.000 bath or more depending on

[sead]

You will have some problems since you need a signed passport copy from her/him when applying for new VISA or residence certificate.

[exppenang]

Thailiban,

Im going on six years renting the same house here in LOS. Last year's Visa renewal I showed up at Immigration with the usual documents, after 3 hours found out that indeed needed the following additional documentation to establish residence:

1) Copy of house book of my rental house signed in original ink by the person named as owner.

2) Copy of owners ID Card signed in original ink.

I had a utility bill and bank statement with the residence address on it, this was basically ignored by the officer who said I needed the above two documents or no Visa. This mistake wound up taking two extra days/trips to immigration to get things done.

If your Visa status and therefore your ability to stay in Thailand require a certificate of residence, your Landlord's refusal to provide this could be a problem for you (depending on which imm office you use) as it was for me until I obtained the additional documents.

Renting in Thailand means you are renting TWO things: 1) The actual property. 2) The service of the landlord or their agent.

Perhaps you have located an ideal rental property in a great location, at a fantastic price. (Some of these do exist). The week after you move in, the main water supply breaks or another major problem occurs that needs to be fixed right away. If you have a lousy or dishonest Landlord, it won't matter much if your place looks great or is in a great location but you have no water, or poop all over the floor.

My point here is that a renter here needs a responsive, responsible landlord, just as much as a decent property and location.

I have been very lucky and my Landlords (husband and wife) are very cooperative and responsible. There have been a couple breakdowns (water, sewer) that needed fixing right away, and they were here in minutes, and the problem sorted in the same day. I find it suspicious that your Landlords refuse to provide you with the documents you asked for.

If it were me, I would also be considering a move - the sooner the better.

[davidst01]

you sound neurotic. When you paint a house do you worry if the paint will dry?

[bark]

Good luck with getting your 2 month deposit back, from these people. No Chance.

[cyberfarang]

Good luck with getting your 2 month deposit back, from these people. No Chance.

Looks that way. The only chance if the OP takes some mates with him when confronting the landlord for his deposits back, otherwise even if a model tenant the couple will make all kinds of excuses and won`t give a s**t, they have nothing to lose as I see the situation. Be prepared for more agro to come.

[THAILIBAN]

I've heard of an ask the lawyer feature in Thai Visa.

You did say expert.

that was what I would have liked to do.

sadly, this feature has been "terminated" by TV's new owners

[THAILIBAN]

The Pattaya immigration office started to act strangely recently, requesting documents like signed copies of the owner's ID card or passport, house registration book and, if he is a foreigner, his work permit, but I believe the Bangkok office is not asking for any of these, at least not at present.

Denim, it is generally a good idea to get information in advance, along the lines of "hope for the best, prepare for the worst".

I would recommend that when signing a rental contract a tenant should always get a copy of documents relating to the owner's or lessor's identity and address, and the lessor should get a copy of a document relating to the tenants identity. It would not be unreasonable for the tenant to ask at the same time also for a copy of a document evidencing the lessor's ownership or his right to grant a lease for the property. Just imaging paying rent to somebody and suddenly the real owner turns up and sues you for compensation for the use of his condo.

Hi Maestro,

thanks for your competent replies here. Yes I am very aware that it is recommended to see all those documents before and get copies, but I was under pressure that time as the contract of my other place had expired, and I actually LIKED this unit where I stay now (until the pitfalls became visible after a few months).

I got a copy of the European guy's ID card of his home country, and they showed me some other documents which made quite clear they are indeed the owners.

As I now plan to move out anyway and am worried about getting back my deposit (and I am not in a situation where I can afford to forego it), I was just exploring my options to create some pressure on them too in case things start to get nasty.

[ubonjoe]

I've heard of an ask the lawyer feature in Thai Visa.

You did say expert.

that was what I would have liked to do.

sadly, this feature has been "terminated" by TV's new owners

Not true. The previous lawyer did not want to it anymore is the reason it was stopped. Attempts are being made to find another lawyer to do it.

[THAILIBAN]

OP, you are actually oblige to report your address within 24 hrs from your arrival in Thailand. Reference Immigration Act Section 37.3:

"Section 37: An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following:

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty–four hours from the time of arrival."

but that is the duty of the person / institution hosting me? Clearly TM30 is not meant to be processed by the ALIEN, but the one who is the host. or am I wrong ?

[THAILIBAN]

Are you renting the condo from them.

Probably they will not report you as residing there because the Landlord is not reporting the income they receive for your rent to the appropriate Thai tax authorities.

By ding this they are violating Thai tax laws.

But that is not your problem, it is their problem and by failing to report the income they receive for your rental .

they can be fined

exactly that was my thought! And that may be the reason why they refused my wish to apply for the electricity under my own name. I was wondering if I could use this as a mean to pressure them to return my deposit in case things turn nasty.

[THAILIBAN]

I've heard of an ask the lawyer feature in Thai Visa.

You did say expert.

that was what I would have liked to do.

sadly, this feature has been "terminated" by TV's new owners

Not true. The previous lawyer did not want to it anymore is the reason it was stopped. Attempts are being made to find another lawyer to do it.

a friend of mine had contacted the ADMINS here 7 or 8 months ago and they said they try to re-establish this feature so it is OFF for a very long time already. It is really a pity as it was incredibly helpful and based on facts and the law and not just hearsay.

[sunnyjim5]

Are you renting the condo from them.

Probably they will not report you as residing there because the Landlord is not reporting the income they receive for your rent to the appropriate Thai tax authorities.

By ding this they are violating Thai tax laws.

But that is not your problem, it is their problem and by failing to report the income they receive for your rental .

they can be fined

exactly that was my thought! And that may be the reason why they refused my wish to apply for the electricity under my own name. I was wondering if I could use this as a mean to pressure them to return my deposit in case things turn nasty.

Looking for a means of "applying pressure" will most likely end in disaster for you !

Much better you have a calm discussion with the landlord and seek an amicable solution.

If you feel otherwise then retain a lawyer (expensive) and with no guarantee of a successful outcome.

[THAILIBAN]

Are you renting the condo from them.

Probably they will not report you as residing there because the Landlord is not reporting the income they receive for your rent to the appropriate Thai tax authorities.

By ding this they are violating Thai tax laws.

But that is not your problem, it is their problem and by failing to report the income they receive for your rental .

they can be fined

exactly that was my thought! And that may be the reason why they refused my wish to apply for the electricity under my own name. I was wondering if I could use this as a mean to pressure them to return my deposit in case things turn nasty.

Looking for a means of "applying pressure" will most likely end in disaster for you !

Much better you have a calm discussion with the landlord and seek an amicable solution.

If you feel otherwise then retain a lawyer (expensive) and with no guarantee of a successful outcome.

I am definitely interested in an amicable solution and see this only as a "last resort" as mentioned earlier.

lawyer makes no sense as the cost would probably eat the deposit entirely.

Will have a Farang "witness" with me but that does not mean we are going into fist fighting or such

[Ulic]

I went took to immigration (Soi 5 Jomtien) for a 30 day extension, I filled in the forms

myself for reporting, I needed my lease for the proof, they sent me upstairs for a drop

of copies of everything and from them I got a "receipt of notification" that is good for as

long as I am staying at that address. (I think you have to re-file in you stay at a hotel

somewhere and they report you as staying there) My landlord did not have to do anything.

Took about 5 minutes + my 30 day extension. Easy no issues, just the surprise I needed

to bring my lease to prove my address and get the "receipt of notification".

Edited February 18, 2016 by Ulic

[chrissables]

Is there a connection between the 90 reporting records and TM30 requirement? What I'm getting at is that the last time I went to do a 90-day report, I was pleasantly surprised to avoid any paperwork. I showed the guy my passport at the entrance (Jomtien) and asked for a 90-day form, but he gave me a number and told me it wasn't necessary because I was in the computer system. Does that mean I won't need a TM30 in April when I have to extend my non-Imm O (retirement) visa?

You cannot extend a Visa and there is no such thing as a 'retirement' Visa.

You are extending your permission to stay based on retirement at your local Immigration office.

It is not a Visa, it is a 'Permit'

As for a TM30, have you already submitted one?

Theoretically you should only complete this form once when take up residence, or changing address, however some Immigration offices request a new submission if you leave the Country and re enter to take up the same residence. You should ask your local Imm office what their requirements are to comply with reporting an alien residing at a particular residence.

It may well be a permit not a visa, although i am not sure it makes any difference what it is called. But my permit is stamped "retirement" on my yearly renewal.