Landlord refuses to report me to IMMI / doesn't even own the Condo

[Inn Between]

Is there a connection between the 90 reporting records and TM30 requirement? What I'm getting at is that the last time I went to do a 90-day report, I was pleasantly surprised to avoid any paperwork. I showed the guy my passport at the entrance (Jomtien) and asked for a 90-day form, but he gave me a number and told me it wasn't necessary because I was in the computer system. Does that mean I won't need a TM30 in April when I have to extend my non-Imm O (retirement) visa?

You cannot extend a Visa and there is no such thing as a 'retirement' Visa.

You are extending your permission to stay based on retirement at your local Immigration office.

It is not a Visa, it is a 'Permit'

As for a TM30, have you already submitted one?

Theoretically you should only complete this form once when take up residence, or changing address, however some Immigration offices request a new submission if you leave the Country and re enter to take up the same residence. You should ask your local Imm office what their requirements are to comply with reporting an alien residing at a particular residence.

Thanks for the response. As far as your question about already submitting a TM30, I guess that's really the essence of my question -- I don't really know. Is that part of the process of getting a visa and a 365-day extension of stay based on retirement (or whatever irrelevant terminology people choose to use here )?

And since I didn't have to do paperwork for my last 90-day report, does that mean there's a chance that the the information is happily in the system, and the process of getting lease copies, owners ID, another TM30 , etc. won't be required?

I realize that the rules can change depending on the office one goes to, the officer they deal with, the position of the moon at that particular time of day, and a myriad of other possible factors, but hopefully someone will have an (experienced) idea of what might happen.

Cheers.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Inn Between

[elviajero]

• If your landlord won't submit the TM30 then you can do it yourself as the possessor of the property. You can do it by registered post.
• It is supposed to be done every time you re-enter the country.
• If it isn't done it will, likely, only ever come to light if you visit an immigration office. If they see it wasn't submitted they would want to fine the owner, but there is nothing in the law to stop them fining you as the possessor. The standard fine seems to be 800 baht but it can be as much as 2,000 baht. There are no consequences beyond the fine.

[elviajero]

OP, you are actually oblige to report your address within 24 hrs from your arrival in Thailand. Reference Immigration Act Section 37.3:

"Section 37: An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following:

3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty–four hours from the time of arrival."

but that is the duty of the person / institution hosting me? Clearly TM30 is not meant to be processed by the ALIEN, but the one who is the host. or am I wrong ?

This law is not enforced.

We are all supposed to report to the local police (not immigration) within 24 hours of staying at an address. But you do not need to do it.

The TM30 is a separate requirement and the responsibility of the house-master, owner, possessor, hotel/guest house manager to do. If the Alien can be considered any of these individuals then they can submit the report. I don't think immigration are too fussed who submits the report as long as someone does.

[Inn Between]

• If your landlord won't submit the TM30 then you can do it yourself as the possessor of the property. You can do it by registered post.
• It is supposed to be done every time you re-enter the country.
• If it isn't done it will, likely, only ever come to light if you visit an immigration office. If they see it wasn't submitted they would want to fine the owner, but there is nothing in the law to stop them fining you as the possessor. The standard fine seems to be 800 baht but it can be as much as 2,000 baht. There are no consequences beyond the fine.

Thanks for both of your posts. I printed off a TM30 to see what I could learn from looking it over. It's titled: Notification From For House Master, Owner or the Possessor of the Residence Where Alien has stayed.

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

Edited February 20, 2016 by Inn Between

[Pepper9187]

Are you renting the condo from them.

Probably they will not report you as residing there because the Landlord is not reporting the income they receive for your rent to the appropriate Thai tax authorities.

By ding this they are violating Thai tax laws.

But that is not your problem, it is their problem and by failing to report the income they receive for your rental .

they can be fined

exactly that was my thought! And that may be the reason why they refused my wish to apply for the electricity under my own name. I was wondering if I could use this as a mean to pressure them to return my deposit in case things turn nasty.

Had a similar problem with the owner of my house last month.

She totally freaked out when she received a "invitation" letter from the government to talk about the house taxes, she went really mad and didn't slept for 2 days + harassed me by phone, threatening that i had to pay for her taxes (what a <deleted> JOKE) because she never had this, i quote <problem>, end of quote (!) before, i remained impassive to that crap and didn't agree.

She even tried to make a new contract to my girlfriend's name with a lower rental, because she was scared of having to report a "farang" and having to report the rental price and pay taxes.

Turns out that she "didn't entirely said the truth" to the government officer and avoided the taxes, it's a really nice way to support your country, right ?

Anyway, good luck ! they can really do much troubles if they think that for somehow they will have to report the rental and pay taxes.

[Maestro]

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

Law on people act = การทะเบียนราษฎร = Civil Registration Act

Apparently no English translation available on the Internet.

[tropo]

I've heard of an ask the lawyer feature in Thai Visa.

You did say expert.

Good luck with that. Tried that before and got zero response. I think the lawyer has retired from that forum.

[elgenon]

The next thing (which actually more belongs to the REAL ESTATE board) is - the European guy signed the contract and is the person who rents out the Condo. But he actually does not even own it - his wife owns it. I asked for a copy of the Tabien Baan several times and I need proof of address too for several reasons, but to no avail. Again: What can happen to the European guy if he rents out a place he does not actually own ? maybe they do so because his wife would have to pay taxes ?

There is nothing illegal about the husband signing the rental agreement for a condominium the title deed for which is in his wife's name.

The house registration book for the condo or a copy of it does not serve as proof of your address. Depending on what you need this proof for, the rental contract may be acceptable, otherwise you could go with it to the local district office and perhaps get a residence certificate from them. Another possibility is that the Condominium Juristic Person Manager could give a letter confirming that you live at that address as a tenant, again on the basis of your rental agreement.

For some purposes, invoices for telephone, electricity, internet services, etc are good for proof of address.

Isn't that working without a work permit and thus illegal?

[Maestro]

It would be illegal if his wife ran a business renting out apartments, but there has been no indication in the OP of this being the case.

[turgid]

I've rented three condos here. None of the owners ever got around to it. I take the attitude that I report everything honestly at immigration and everytime I renew visas etc. Its not my responsibility to make sure they meet their obligations. I do have written agreements for contract terms, deposit, rental term etc and I always get a least one bill with my nane on. On the deposit return it doesnt make much difference if you have a contract, its down to the individual owner. I've rented 9 places in 20 years living in Asia got the deposit back without problem 7 times. One owner got dementia and the daughter drained her bank account using her ATM card creating a huge family dispute. The son told me I wasn't going to get my deposit back but told me I could stay two extra months rent free. In the other one it was a foreign owner and I had to write it off.

[Inn Between]

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

Law on people act = การทะเบียนราษฎร = Civil Registration Act

Apparently no English translation available on the Internet.

Not terribly surprising.

I wonder what would happen if I submitted a TM30 declaring myself housemaster by legal right of being the tenant.

[elviajero]

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

Law on people act = การทะเบียนราษฎร = Civil Registration Act

Apparently no English translation available on the Internet.

Not terribly surprising.

I wonder what would happen if I submitted a TM30 declaring myself housemaster by legal right of being the tenant.

You are not the house-master by virtue of being a tenant. The house-master (chief possessor) is the person named in the properties Tabien Baan as being the 'head of the house'. If you are a tenant, and not the house-master, then you could be considered the possessor and could submit the TM30 in that capacity.

[elviajero]

• If your landlord won't submit the TM30 then you can do it yourself as the possessor of the property. You can do it by registered post.
• It is supposed to be done every time you re-enter the country.
• If it isn't done it will, likely, only ever come to light if you visit an immigration office. If they see it wasn't submitted they would want to fine the owner, but there is nothing in the law to stop them fining you as the possessor. The standard fine seems to be 800 baht but it can be as much as 2,000 baht. There are no consequences beyond the fine.

Thanks for both of your posts. I printed off a TM30 to see what I could learn from looking it over. It's titled: Notification From For House Master, Owner or the Possessor of the Residence Where Alien has stayed.

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

I'm guessing, but I think they are referring to the law that says all Thais must be registered at a property in the house book (Tabien Baan). In every house book one person is named as the 'head of the household'. That person can be, as stated in the definition of house-master, in any capacity.

Section 38 says that either the house-master, owner OR possessor can submit the TM30. Immigration explained these people as:

Owner = Owner (Foreign or Thai)

House-master = 'Head of house' named in the Tabien Baan. Often the owner but their capacity is irrelevant.

Possessor = Anyone that is not the owner or house-master but is considered in possession of the property. Example. A foreigner or Thai that are tenants.

[elviajero]

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

Law on people act = การทะเบียนราษฎร = Civil Registration Act

Apparently no English translation available on the Internet.

Here it is Maestro.

Civil Registration Act.pdf

[sunnyjim5]

Here's something from Section 3 : Immigration Acts : 1. B.E. 2493 ( 1950 ) 2. B.E. 2497 ( 1954 – NO.2 ) (http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en/doc/Immigration_Act.pdf)

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

A little helpful I guess, but what does, "in accordance with the law on people act" mean?

Law on people act = การทะเบียนราษฎร = Civil Registration Act

Apparently no English translation available on the Internet.

Not terribly surprising.

I wonder what would happen if I submitted a TM30 declaring myself housemaster by legal right of being the tenant.

You are not the house-master by virtue of being a tenant. The house-master (chief possessor) is the person named in the properties Tabien Baan as being the 'head of the house'. If you are a tenant, and not the house-master, then you could be considered the possessor and could submit the TM30 in that capacity.

There is no difficulty in completing the TM30 as a "possessor" of the property. Any problems would likely be associated with immigration wanting signed copies of the owners ID and Tabian Ban ( As is the case in Phuket)

[Maestro]

Here it is Maestro.

Muchas gracias, elviajero.

[Inn Between]

Thanks for the answers, all. My problem is that I may not be able contact the owner to get any signatures. It's a bit of a different situation where I pay the maintenance fee directly to the condo management and the rent has been pre-paid due to a debt situation.